advice

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

This weekend is my weekend to get my daughter but  this year my ex gets spring break so I lose this weekend. My ex offered to let me get my daughter today at 5 and keep her till tomorrow at 5 pm,  so when I got to my ex's house my daughter ran up to me and jumped in my arms and was excited to see me. She said her goodbye to my ex and I started to put her in the car seat and she started crying so I got her out and got her calmed down.

she then started to squirming to get out of the car so I thought she wanted to say goodbye to her mom again so she ran over to her mom and started clinging to her, my ex asked her if she wanted to go with me and she shook her head no.

My ex asked my daughter if she wanted to show me some things in the yard and she said yes, my ex let me spend some time with my daughter in her yard which she hasn't done in a year.

My ex kept asking my daughter if she wanted to go with me but she was clearly torn about what to do. She kept acting like she wanted to go but kept changing her mind.

My daughter has never done this before and I've been getting her for overnights for 8 months now. My ex was trying to get her to go with me so I don't think this is my ex influencing her to not go with me also she offered to let me get my daughter tomorrow when she doesn't have to.

Should I have made my daughter go with me? How do I handle this if it happens again?

I question whether I have a secure healthy attachment with my daughter now.

I have read that you should make the kids go when they don't want to but I didn't know if that applies to a 2 yr old or not

[Eco]

This weekend is my weekend to get my daughter but  this year my ex gets spring break so I lose this weekend. My ex offered to let me get my daughter today at 5 and keep her till tomorrow at 5 pm,  so when I got to my ex's house my daughter ran up to me and jumped in my arms and was excited to see me. She said her goodbye to my ex and I started to put her in the car seat and she started crying so I got her out and got her calmed down.

she then started to squirming to get out of the car so I thought she wanted to say goodbye to her mom again so she ran over to her mom and started clinging to her, my ex asked her if she wanted to go with me and she shook her head no.

My ex asked my daughter if she wanted to show me some things in the yard and she said yes, my ex let me spend some time with my daughter in her yard which she hasn't done in a year.

My ex kept asking my daughter if she wanted to go with me but she was clearly torn about what to do. She kept acting like she wanted to go but kept changing her mind.

My daughter has never done this before and I've been getting her for overnights for 8 months now. My ex was trying to get her to go with me so I don't think this is my ex influencing her to not go with me also she offered to let me get my daughter tomorrow when she doesn't have to.

Should I have made my daughter go with me? How do I handle this if it happens again?

I question whether I have a secure healthy attachment with my daughter now.

I have read that you should make the kids go when they don't want to but I didn't know if that applies to a 2 yr old or not

[Rubies]

It's wrong to give the choice to the kids.  It's asking them to choose between their parents.  It's not healthy for so many reasons.

Grownups need to make the decisions, state how it's going to be to the child.  Child knows adults are in charge of life, all is well.

[whirlpoollife]

Too prolonged of the exchange. Once D in the car seat , no matter if she cries, time to go.

By doing that every time, she will know there is no manipulating the parent.  It is what it is.

The crying should lessen when she realizes there's no reaction from you.

It's understandable you don't want her to cry and to make everything right in their little world but tough love is better. 

She will come around to respect you more than if you let her get away with situations.

Even with my two  teens this is hard... .really only because of the fine line we walk with the other spouse who alienates the kids. 

[Eco]

thanks for the advice.

looking back now I should have just made her get in the car seat, but like I said she has never acted this way about going with me before so it was a bit shocking to me. normally I just put her in the seat and go and shes happy. I just had my 2 hr visit with her 2 days ago and she was fine so im very confused.

even more confusing is that she came running to me when I first got there but when I put her in the seat she changed instantly. I would think that if she wasn't wanting to go with me she wouldn't have greeted me so warmly.

[Turkish]

You're the parent, she's the child, a baby still. She's 2.

It may take a while for her to process her new reality. I think if you had gotten her home, she would have been ok after that.

I watched the kids yesterday. I had the day off, and I asked their mom if I could watch them until mid afternoon. No problem. Our daughter, who turns 3 in 3 weeks,.still says, "I want mommy," sometimes at home. Yesterday, she was crawling on the top of the couch, "attacking" me while I was hugging S5 and watching a cartoon. I said, "ok guys, when this is over, get your shoes on and we're going to grandma's. Mommy will pick you up." D2 said, "I don't want to go. I want to stay here." I grabbed and hugged her and said,."I know you want to stay here, Baby. It's like you to stay here, too. However, we have to go to grandma's so Mommy can pick you up, and I'll se you in a couple of days, ok?" "Ok."

[livednlearned]

It probably felt confusing with all the stuff your ex brings to this.

My son went through a period when he was 2 where he would come running to me when I picked him up from preschool, then when I got him in the car, he would shriek and cry the whole way home.   He wanted both things -- to stay and play with friends, AND to have me be with him. He didn't want to be separated from either of his desires.

I don't think this has anything to do with secure/healthy attachment to you, it's probably more about wanting both parents together with her. She was resisting the separation of the two people she is attaching to. In our minds, especially when we see signs of parental alienation, it feels like a competition to some extent. But for our kids, they want a secure attachment with both parents, at all times.

If she does this again, validate how she feels, but enforce the boundary. Otherwise she will feel fearful. Kids who have a BPD parent experience role-reversals -- the parent is not consistent, and violates parent-child roles. So we have to be the grown-up and provide the structure that makes kids feels safe. Even if they don't like the boundary, they feel safe when a parent enforces that boundary. It tells them that the world is predictable even if they don't always like it.

[Eco]

It probably felt confusing with all the stuff your ex brings to this.

very much so, I don't know how much is her doing because of alienation or how much of it was another issue my daughter might be having.

My son went through a period when he was 2 where he would come running to me when I picked him up from preschool, then when I got him in the car, he would shriek and cry the whole way home.  huh He wanted both things -- to stay and play with friends, AND to have me be with him. He didn't want to be separated from either of his desires.

I don't think this has anything to do with secure/healthy attachment to you, it's probably more about wanting both parents together with her. She was resisting the separation of the two people she is attaching to. In our minds, especially when we see signs of parental alienation, it feels like a competition to some extent. But for our kids, they want a secure attachment with both parents, at all times.

Ive been telling my ex this for months, she wants us both and im sure sometimes she wants one parent more then the other and vice versa which is normal.

If she does this again, validate how she feels, but enforce the boundary. Otherwise she will feel fearful. Kids who have a BPD parent experience role-reversals -- the parent is not consistent, and violates parent-child roles. So we have to be the grown-up and provide the structure that makes kids feels safe. Even if they don't like the boundary, they feel safe when a parent enforces that boundary. It tells them that the world is predictable even if they don't always like it.

well this morning I went to pick my daughter up for the day and she frowned when she saw my and started clutching my ex. my ex started asking my daughter in aggravated tone " why are you doing this" I said she would be fine and my ex handed her to me ( more like peeled her off of her) at that point my daughter started screaming and kicking and It took a good 5 min to get her in the car seat.  she was crying for only about 3 min after that and was fine, my son was with me and she loves him so that helped.

at my house she was fine and we had a good day, when it was time to leave I let her know and she was ok until we got to the car where she wanted to get in the front seat and drive.  normally when she does this she stays in the front seat for 10 min or so playing and then wants to get out of the car so I just put her in the car seat and she went ballistic sobbing, crying and fighting getting in the car seat,after a few min she fell asleep.

Im really worried about my daughter, she is a well behaved 2 yr old who hardly ever throws a tantrum or acts out like this. I would think this would happen sort of gradually and not overnight like it did.

my ex says this is happening because I started the full weekends too soon and that my daughter is away from her for to long at to young of a age. ive been doing full weekends since January, I don't think that is the reason.

my ex is acting very weird she says that she knows I love my daughter and that I take good care of her and that my daughter loves me and wants to be with me too and that she doesn't think that abuse is the reason my daughter is acting this way. 3 weeks ago I told my ex that I felt like she didn't see me as a father but a babysitter she has to put up with and she replied " no you don't want to know what I think of you and its a lot worse then a babysitter!"   why the change in opinion of me? is she trying to look innocent and nice now that my daughter is acting this way towards me? Im very confused about her actions, she had every opportunity to capitalize on this situation if her goal was to alienate me from my daughter but she was actually trying to get my daughter to go with me.   

My daughter is having a terrible time dealing with this, the confusion must be horrible for her. im not sure how much of this is from alienation or all the conflict between me and my ex or just the situation or all of the above but I have to figure out the best way to handle this for my daughter.

[Swiggle]

It probably felt confusing with all the stuff your ex brings to this.

very much so, I don't know how much is her doing because of alienation or how much of it was another issue my daughter might be having.

My son went through a period when he was 2 where he would come running to me when I picked him up from preschool, then when I got him in the car, he would shriek and cry the whole way home.  huh He wanted both things -- to stay and play with friends, AND to have me be with him. He didn't want to be separated from either of his desires.

I don't think this has anything to do with secure/healthy attachment to you, it's probably more about wanting both parents together with her. She was resisting the separation of the two people she is attaching to. In our minds, especially when we see signs of parental alienation, it feels like a competition to some extent. But for our kids, they want a secure attachment with both parents, at all times.

Ive been telling my ex this for months, she wants us both and im sure sometimes she wants one parent more then the other and vice versa which is normal.

If she does this again, validate how she feels, but enforce the boundary. Otherwise she will feel fearful. Kids who have a BPD parent experience role-reversals -- the parent is not consistent, and violates parent-child roles. So we have to be the grown-up and provide the structure that makes kids feels safe. Even if they don't like the boundary, they feel safe when a parent enforces that boundary. It tells them that the world is predictable even if they don't always like it.

well this morning I went to pick my daughter up for the day and she frowned when she saw my and started clutching my ex. my ex started asking my daughter in aggravated tone " why are you doing this" I said she would be fine and my ex handed her to me ( more like peeled her off of her) at that point my daughter started screaming and kicking and It took a good 5 min to get her in the car seat.  she was crying for only about 3 min after that and was fine, my son was with me and she loves him so that helped.

at my house she was fine and we had a good day, when it was time to leave I let her know and she was ok until we got to the car where she wanted to get in the front seat and drive.  normally when she does this she stays in the front seat for 10 min or so playing and then wants to get out of the car so I just put her in the car seat and she went ballistic sobbing, crying and fighting getting in the car seat,after a few min she fell asleep.

Im really worried about my daughter, she is a well behaved 2 yr old who hardly ever throws a tantrum or acts out like this. I would think this would happen sort of gradually and not overnight like it did.

my ex says this is happening because I started the full weekends too soon and that my daughter is away from her for to long at to young of a age. ive been doing full weekends since January, I don't think that is the reason.

my ex is acting very weird she says that she knows I love my daughter and that I take good care of her and that my daughter loves me and wants to be with me too and that she doesn't think that abuse is the reason my daughter is acting this way. 3 weeks ago I told my ex that I felt like she didn't see me as a father but a babysitter she has to put up with and she replied " no you don't want to know what I think of you and its a lot worse then a babysitter!"   why the change in opinion of me? is she trying to look innocent and nice now that my daughter is acting this way towards me? Im very confused about her actions, she had every opportunity to capitalize on this situation if her goal was to alienate me from my daughter but she was actually trying to get my daughter to go with me.   

My daughter is having a terrible time dealing with this, the confusion must be horrible for her. im not sure how much of this is from alienation or all the conflict between me and my ex or just the situation or all of the above but I have to figure out the best way to handle this for my daughter.

I'm sorry you are having to go through this, my heart breaks as I read your posts and the push/pull that was going on with your daughter. For me it was so hard when I first left my ex to know if my kids behavior was somewhat "normal" or was it a product of the divorce or a little bit of both.

I would venture to guess this isn't an issue that your daughter is having but more of an influence of your ex. Like others have said there are many things that happened with this that are somewhat normal... .1. of course kids want their parents together 2. kids are going to feel mixed emotions not matter if it is leaving mom to go with dad or leaving a playdate to go home. They see things in the moment and if the moment feels good that is what they are going to gravitate too.

No one wants to see their kids upset especially when we think it is something we are doing to make them feel that way. Others are right in the sense that giving her the choice between staying/going was probably hard on her. I think maybe when kids are older and better understand the situation can you take into consideration what they want in terms of making that decision. But at 2 Dad and Mom should be making that decision even when it is one that your daughter seems to not want.

You made the comment in both posts that you don't feel your ex is influencing your daughter because she was "encouraging" her to go, I would be careful about assuming that. She may be covertly alienating your daughter when you aren't around but be overly encouraging when you are so that you are left scratching your head wondering "wow maybe it really is me, DD doesn't want to come with me and mom is encouraging her, it must be me" Your ex could be saying things just before you arrive or in the time leading up to the transition. When your daughter gets excited to see you like running out the door all it could take is one ear whisper from you ex or look to signal your daughter and make her change her tune.

My DH's uBPDex did this with my SD and SS early on. When they would get out of the car she would whisper things to them that would totally change their demeanor toward us. Sometimes she would remind them to lie to us about things.

Do you feel worried about your ex's comment about you and being worse than a babysitter? Could she be angling for something? A situation that goes something like... .Ex covertly says things to DD alienating her from you, until now you've been able to combat that with validation and spending time with DD. Maybe ex sees it isn't working so she turns it up a notch and this past weekend happens. Ex acts all nice, to keep you wondering and throw you off. Then makes these accusations about you. At some point those accusations get turned into false allegations. Could you record these exchanges?

Keep being consistent with DD, try not to let things that happens in front of her mom or with her mom change your boundaries or how you parent. Keep Validating DD be the constant, routine, loving dad. 

[rarsweet]

By asking her to decide she is in a situation where she hurts either you or mom, in her mind. Even when your intention is to do what will make her happy. Little kids have a small attention span also, if they are having fun doing something they don't want to stop or leave. My oldest daughter long after she was potty trained would just pee her pants if she was having fun .  She didn't understand she could go back to her fun after the bathroom.

[Eco]

But at 2 Dad and Mom should be making that decision even when it is one that your daughter seems to not want.

I agree 100%, I was really in shock when it happened because she has never given me any trouble with going with me before.

You made the comment in both posts that you don't feel your ex is influencing your daughter because she was "encouraging" her to go, I would be careful about assuming that. She may be covertly alienating your daughter when you aren't around but be overly encouraging when you are so that you are left scratching your head wondering "wow maybe it really is me, DD doesn't want to come with me and mom is encouraging her, it must be me" Your ex could be saying things just before you arrive or in the time leading up to the transition. When your daughter gets excited to see you like running out the door all it could take is one ear whisper from you ex or look to signal your daughter and make her change her tune.

that's very true and something I haven't ruled out and will continue to watch for signs, my ex really looked surprised and almost annoyed that I was back at the door with my daughter when she didn't want to go. I have felt that alienation has been going on for sometime and just wasn't working because of my daughters age but now she is older and maybe my exs work against me is paying off.

I don't think that my daughter is alienated from me yet because its not me she is rejecting but rather the idea of leaving her mom. Once she calmed down in the car she was back to her loving self towards me so I would think that if she was alienated she would reject me as well. thoughts on this?

What im worried about is where this will lead to, Im hoping it doesn't lead to full alienation. I don't trust my ex and I know she is capable of this and that scares me. but the fact is all I have are assumptions and no way to prove any of this and even if I did have proof is taking her from her mom the answer? I don't think it is because my daughter is so attached to her so basically I would be trading one issue for another. I know I have to do whats best for my daughter, I think the first step is getting to a professional on this subject and getting advice.

Do you feel worried about your ex's comment about you and being worse than a babysitter? Could she be angling for something?

very worried but what confused me was the fact that she told me over the weekend in front of my daughter that I basically was a good father and that I take good care of her and loved her and that my daughter loved me and loved spending time with me. that's quite a different view of her original opinion of me being worse then a babysitter just 3 weeks ago.

A situation that goes something like... .Ex covertly says things to DD alienating her from you, until now you've been able to combat that with validation and spending time with DD. Maybe ex sees it isn't working so she turns it up a notch and this past weekend happens. Ex acts all nice, to keep you wondering and throw you off. Then makes these accusations about you. At some point those accusations get turned into false allegations. Could you record these exchanges?

my ex made those comments about me being worse then a babysitter 3 weeks ago and then 2 days ago she says that I take good care of her and loved her and that my daughter loved me and loved spending time with me. I can and have recorded some of the exchanges.

Keep being consistent with DD, try not to let things that happens in front of her mom or with her mom change your boundaries or how you parent. Keep Validating DD be the constant, routine, loving dad. 

thanks that's the only thing I know to do right now, I hope its enough

My DH's uBPDex did this with my SD and SS early on. When they would get out of the car she would whisper things to them that would totally change their demeanor toward us. Sometimes she would remind them to lie to us about things.

how have things turned out for you and your DH? Is the alienation still going on? whats worked best to counter it?


thanks for all the advice and support from everyone

[livednlearned]

It might not be parental alienation per se. It might be stress. Which wouldn't be surprising given the strains of being a single parent with multiple kids, and a mental illness. Have you read this article about typical psychological/emotional responses to divorce? https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=271677.msg12577885#msg12577885

This in particular:

Sometimes parents need help identifying stress in children, especially little ones. What follows are some typical experiences and signs of stress in children of different ages.

I.   INFANTS AND TODDLERS:

A.   Regression in terms of sleeping, toilet training or eating; slowing down in the mastery of new skills

B.   Sleep disturbances (difficulty gong to sleep; frequent waking)

C.   Difficulty leaving parent; clinginess

D.   General crankiness, temper tantrums, crying.

I think the nature of personality disorders predisposes BPD parents to engage in parental alienation, even if its subtle. If a BPD person cannot process difficult/negative feelings in healthy ways, he or she can't help the child process them. Although I'm wondering if it's the more narcissistic BPD types that engage in the most challenging alienating tactics (because they can't stand to lose).

eco, the more you learn about BPD, especially emotional limitations, and the more you validate your D and understand normal healthy development, I think you are miles ahead of the alienation tactics. I found that getting myself out of the drama triangle with ex was ultimately the most effective move I made in terms of S13 learning to individuate. That's essentially what a BPD parent does not tolerate -- a child who develops a distinct and separate sense of self. So anything you do to promote that in your D is going to help her.

[Eco]

Although I'm wondering if it's the more narcissistic BPD types that engage in the most challenging alienating tactics (because they can't stand to lose).

that's exactly how my ex is she cant stand to lose and she sees this as a her vs me instead of whats best for her kids

eco, the more you learn about BPD, especially emotional limitations, and the more you validate your D and understand normal healthy development, I think you are miles ahead of the alienation tactics. I found that getting myself out of the drama triangle with ex was ultimately the most effective move I made in terms of S13 learning to individuate. That's essentially what a BPD parent does not tolerate -- a child who develops a distinct and separate sense of self. So anything you do to promote that in your D is going to help her.

that's one thing I notice, the more I don't let my ex trigger me the better it is. I think that's the main problem, my ex has my daughter so enmeshed that shes having issues leaving her anywhere.

[Eco]

one thing I forgot to mention is I live 40 min from my ex so its a long drive for a 2 yr old plus she hates being in the car seat. im sure that has a lot to do with this issue as well.

[bravhart1]

I think if you brought something to distract her during the exchange it would make it easier for her to cope. She is being scrutinized a bit too much by you both I think. Because of the tension of the exchange she is responding by being upset.

I don't think she sees you as a babysitter, I think she genuinely wants to bond, but leaving mom may be hard right now.

Make it easier by bringing a stuffed animal, a balloon, some bubbles, a bag of animal crackers. Not a bribe, a distraction. She's too little to be expected to respond appropriately in that much tension, help her to not notice it by a little distraction. Something else to focus on during the exchange so she can adjust in her own way. And for what it's worth, the quicker the exchange the better for everyone.

[Swiggle]

But at 2 Dad and Mom should be making that decision even when it is one that your daughter seems to not want.

I agree 100%, I was really in shock when it happened because she has never given me any trouble with going with me before.

You made the comment in both posts that you don't feel your ex is influencing your daughter because she was "encouraging" her to go, I would be careful about assuming that. She may be covertly alienating your daughter when you aren't around but be overly encouraging when you are so that you are left scratching your head wondering "wow maybe it really is me, DD doesn't want to come with me and mom is encouraging her, it must be me" Your ex could be saying things just before you arrive or in the time leading up to the transition. When your daughter gets excited to see you like running out the door all it could take is one ear whisper from you ex or look to signal your daughter and make her change her tune.

that's very true and something I haven't ruled out and will continue to watch for signs, my ex really looked surprised and almost annoyed that I was back at the door with my daughter when she didn't want to go. I have felt that alienation has been going on for sometime and just wasn't working because of my daughters age but now she is older and maybe my exs work against me is paying off.

I don't think that my daughter is alienated from me yet because its not me she is rejecting but rather the idea of leaving her mom. Once she calmed down in the car she was back to her loving self towards me so I would think that if she was alienated she would reject me as well. thoughts on this?

What im worried about is where this will lead to, Im hoping it doesn't lead to full alienation. I don't trust my ex and I know she is capable of this and that scares me. but the fact is all I have are assumptions and no way to prove any of this and even if I did have proof is taking her from her mom the answer? I don't think it is because my daughter is so attached to her so basically I would be trading one issue for another. I know I have to do whats best for my daughter, I think the first step is getting to a professional on this subject and getting advice.

Do you feel worried about your ex's comment about you and being worse than a babysitter? Could she be angling for something?

very worried but what confused me was the fact that she told me over the weekend in front of my daughter that I basically was a good father and that I take good care of her and loved her and that my daughter loved me and loved spending time with me. that's quite a different view of her original opinion of me being worse then a babysitter just 3 weeks ago.

A situation that goes something like... .Ex covertly says things to DD alienating her from you, until now you've been able to combat that with validation and spending time with DD. Maybe ex sees it isn't working so she turns it up a notch and this past weekend happens. Ex acts all nice, to keep you wondering and throw you off. Then makes these accusations about you. At some point those accusations get turned into false allegations. Could you record these exchanges?

my ex made those comments about me being worse then a babysitter 3 weeks ago and then 2 days ago she says that I take good care of her and loved her and that my daughter loved me and loved spending time with me. I can and have recorded some of the exchanges.

Keep being consistent with DD, try not to let things that happens in front of her mom or with her mom change your boundaries or how you parent. Keep Validating DD be the constant, routine, loving dad. 

thanks that's the only thing I know to do right now, I hope its enough

My DH's uBPDex did this with my SD and SS early on. When they would get out of the car she would whisper things to them that would totally change their demeanor toward us. Sometimes she would remind them to lie to us about things.

how have things turned out for you and your DH? Is the alienation still going on? whats worked best to counter it?


thanks for all the advice and support from everyone

Hi Eco

I have to say the alienation still goes on but it isn't affecting them like it used to. They have started to tell us all the stuff that mom says and does that she shouldn't be. They also see a T that is aware of what goes on so that has helped a lot. I know that our positive influence affects them more then their mom's negative one. For us the best thing is to just keep communication open, validate and I can usually tell when something is bothering the kids and I stay on top of them until they are able to talk about it with me. T helps a lot, is that something you are able to do?

[Eco]

T helps a lot, is that something you are able to do?

not yet, when I talked to my ex about it she said " I will take her if she needs to go" which means she wont take her.  so I will have to get it in a court order and I plan on doing that.