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Author Topic: Is Withdrawing Help Necessary?  (Read 557 times)
milesperhour

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« on: April 08, 2015, 12:01:28 PM »

So your first contact with her will be picking her up... .to get her to court?   Hmmm... .why not let her get herself there?  Is the no contact thing over?  FF

I so agree. She is an adult. She can get to court on her own. Her actions have consequences. This is one of them. Who are you to deny her the life lesson of experiencing that consequence.

Sideline questions to everybody here:  Do we really have to stop doing nice things for our pwBPD, just to "teach them a lesson"?  Would refusing to drive her to court actually teach her anything?  Is this really part of tough love?  I understand the truth of "Spare the rod and spoil the child", but our SOs wBPD are not children!  They are adults and cannot be trained like children.  Doesn't withholding our usual help from our pwBPD seem like manipulation on our part?  Kind'a like, "Then he'll see how much he needs me, and that'll teach 'em!"  What about those of us who do not feel that we need to (or want to) teach anybody a lesson? 
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« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2015, 04:58:04 AM »

Sideline questions to everybody here:  :)o we really have to stop doing nice things for our pwBPD, just to "teach them a lesson"?  Would refusing to drive her to court actually teach her anything?  Is this really part of tough love?  

Hi miles,

This is what I think about your sideline question (good question btw).

I believe most of us here share some personality traits ourselves.   They include a desire to care for others, enjoyment in pleasing others, a gentle, calm, mild temperament and a well defined sense of responsibility.  Normally they makes us pretty good workers, spouses, etc.

What I learned here is that when we use our behaviors to counter act the extreme behaviors of the BPD our traits can morph into toxic forms of over compliance, extreme guilt, anxiety, and poor boundaries.

For me the way this commonly worked is that my partner would project her negative emotions onto me and I would accept responsibility for them.   Not consciously of course.    And then she would get mad at me because I was doing such a rotten job at handling her emotions.  I didn't fix them, I didn't make her feel better.  I would try harder, because I am VERY responsible and the things would quickly spiral out of control.

I have to really think about the fact, almost daily, that I am not responsible for my partners emotions or her behavior.   So for me this type of discussion is not about teaching my pwBPD a lesson its about learning a lesson for me, where my boundary should be, what am I responsible for.   What's the healthy thing to do when my normal reaction, to help, may not be helpful.

'ducks.
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milesperhour

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« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2015, 10:18:50 AM »

Do we really have to stop doing nice things for our pwBPD, just to "teach them a lesson"?  Is this really part of tough love?  

I believe most of us here share some personality traits ourselves.   They include a desire to care for others, enjoyment in pleasing others, a gentle, calm, mild temperament and a well defined sense of responsibility.  Normally they makes us pretty good workers, spouses, etc.

What I learned here is that when we use our behaviors to counter act the extreme behaviors of the BPD our traits can morph into toxic forms of over compliance, extreme guilt, anxiety, and poor boundaries.

I have to really think about the fact, almost daily, that I am not responsible for my partners emotions or her behavior.   So for me this type of discussion is not about teaching my pwBPD a lesson its about learning a lesson for me, where my boundary should be, what am I responsible for.   What's the healthy thing to do when my normal reaction, to help, may not be helpful.

Thanks for this very "helpful" answer to my question.   Smiling (click to insert in post)  Understanding that my co-dependence, guilt, and anxiety comes from a good heart and not a weak mind is comforting.  Validating.  The more I learn about BPD (and psychology in general) the more I see the same emotional dysregulation tendecies in myself.  It has shaken my already poor opinion of myself to the core.  Like others on this site, I wonder if I have absorbed these dysfunctional thought patterns by long association with pwBPD (and pwBiPD in my case) or was I born this way ... .A little of both, I suppose.  

It's so difficult for me to see myself as the strong one dealing effectively with a weaker partner.  I was

always the follower not the leader, the helper not the initiator.  Got to get over that if  I am going to set boundries for my own life ... .Or even to see this as my own life, not his.  If it's to be, it's up to me.

Thanks again, miles
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« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2015, 12:58:09 PM »

Hi milesperhour,

I got some mixed feelings when reading the - tough love - approach. However when conflicts are extreme some extended cooling off period where parties keep distance can make sense.

In general

1) Withholding contact in order to teach and punish - that seems controlling and is leveraging fear of abandonment for our end.

2) Withholding some help in order to teach and punish - seems sabotaging the relationship.

but

3) If we are angry pretending we are not angry by continuing to ice the cake - that would be hiding our own emotion, make us less readable and more confusing. It also makes processing our own emotion harder to process for ourselves.

PwBPD live in the moment. Feedback is best provided in close timely relation to the cause - this makes boundaries so effective. Delayed feedback in general makes a system (any system) less stable.

When we help we fill a need. Some needs are more important than others (Maslows hierarchy of needs). Some needs have to be filled even in a stressed relationship state and some may not.

   1 Physiological needs

   2 Safety needs

   3 Love and belonging

   4 Esteem

   5 Self-actualization

   6 Self-transcendence

Still if we don't help then it should be about our needs and not about the pwBPD. Focus on controlling the pwBPD just leads to deeper Enmeshment - not a direction to take for a healthy relationship.
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« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2015, 01:34:26 PM »

I have pondered this question repeatedly. If I can do something and I want to do it, then what is the problem? The problem is that I don't know when to say NO. Learning how to say NO is not about teaching anybody a lesson. It is about me learning how to do a better job of identifying what I really want to do. For so long, my default response to everything was YES. I didn't stop to consider whether or not it was something that I really wanted to do. I was more worried about being controlling or manipulative or being mean. The thought of somebody calling me mean or thinking of me as selfish for saying no was kind of earth shattering for me. It sounds crazy as I type it out right now but that is the reality.

Like somebody else said, it isn't about punishing them or teaching them a lesson. It is about taking ownership of YOUR life without feeling the need to help or rescue somebody else. If you are choosing to do something or not do something as a form of punishment, then that is no good. From the outside, a person may not be able to see the difference. What matters is what is going on INSIDE YOU. For me, that has been difficult to navigate because I don't want to be perceived as mean or selfish or punishing or anything like that.
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« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2015, 03:48:27 PM »



Sideline questions to everybody here:  Do we really have to stop doing nice things for our pwBPD, just to "teach them a lesson"? 

Good question and one we all face in our relationships as well as other friendship's milesperhour.

I can only speak from my own experience because the bottom-line is no one can really know the intricacies of the actions we all take to try and find a better path for our lives and our partner's lives.

You're right, although many refer to them as being 'grownup children' I just don't sense it as being that way. I've experienced the 'childish' responses when arguing a moot point, but that was more in the past and always when I was forcing a 'rational' awareness of a given situation when I wasn't using apples with apples considering she was only capable at those times of emotional responses and interactions.

Tough love isn't a way to harmony or progress with someone with BPD. All too often, far too many people in their lives probably drove that person to even worse reactions and feelings about themselves as a result of the wrong application of tough love in their lives. Tough love is negative and harmful when it’s applied to someone who may be physically and mentally unable to learn by it as a result of it triggering every fear and negative feeling they associate with the discipline aspect of it.

I really think if the question were asked that very few would have found a positive outcome as a result of instituting tough love with their partners.

I so believe in empathy being a better personal guide and doing what I feel is the right thing, the good thing, the helpful thing, the supportive thing and the loving thing that allows them to see your support for them and confirming that to them through the consistency of your support.

It isn't about harboring ill will about a person whose will is compromised of reason in different settings and environments. If you want to move in a better direction with a relationship or even if it’s just managing a friendship, well, that comes and is done through supporting that person and being helpful, considerate and understanding of the situation. Not always easy to do depending on the situation. For myself personally, I've developed one boundary in positively supporting and that is not to have 'help' associated with 'approval' when it's a situation that my moral or ethical values or even personal dignity can't support.  It doesn’t stop me from helping but it does limit me to what I can validate while I do that.

I guess it really comes to following your own compass milesperhour. What is the more positive interaction you can take in a situation? What is the negative involvement you can bring about that will negatively affect your own feelings of yourself? As much as they say that our partners are 'intimately involved' and ‘compulsively centered’ on their own self - we also need to focus on our own self-worth and being.

What really counts is what feels right to you, will empower you with a better feeling about yourself. It isn't as much about what you can do to help a partner who has challenges that affect your relationship, but what you can do to help bolster your own self given the situation and who you KNOW you are and want to remain being.

I believe having integrity and maintaining my own compass of being that person I know I am, compassionate, considerate, thoughtful, giving, supportive and empathetic is the strength that sets the bar on leading by example and ensuring that example is someone I like and feel good about being.

Not to go on too much, but when it comes to tough love I find that applying it to myself to avoid negative feelings is the challenge. Tough love enacted on another - just isn't a way to find a positive balance or harmony. By it's very lack of considerate support it just can't help a person with this disorder.

I hope you make decisions in your interaction based solely on what helps you and if that means helping another person you see in need and want to support - well does that feel like the right thing to do?


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« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2015, 04:03:48 PM »

Just a little afterthought milesperhour on your challenge in decision making. I'll share something that I refer to often in making choices and keep it documented on my desktop.

“On some dimension or other, every event in life can be causing only one of two things: either it is good for you, or it is bringing up what you need to look at in order to create good for you.

Evolution is win-win…life is self-correcting.”

― Deepak Chopra, The Book of Secrets: Unlocking the Hidden Dimensions of Your Life

“When you hold some part of yourself in reserve you deny it exposure to life; you repress its energy and keep it from understanding what it needs to know.”

Seeking can’t get anyone out of the tangle because everything is tangled up…it’s much easier to keep up the fight between good and evil, holy and profane, us and them. But as awareness grows, these opposites begin to calm down in their clashes, and something else emerges- a world you feel at home in.”

“Don’t let a day go by without asking who you are…each time you let a new ingredient enter your awareness.”


I hope this helps milesperhour. It's really good food for thought and a really wholesome direction to set a personal compass to.

  Hope this helps a bit.

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« Reply #7 on: April 14, 2015, 06:31:37 AM »

Do we really have to stop doing nice things for our pwBPD, just to "teach them a lesson"?

Being aware of my codependency, I would rather now stop and rethink the question. It's not about teaching or punishing THEM. It's about US. As recovering codep. I don't want to live someone else's life anymore.

So -- I'd ask myself: is it help I'd give to any grown-up, self-sufficient person, or is it rescuing someone after their reckless action because I can't live without THEM?

Yes, I can live without THEM. Helping someone should be a choice, not panic reaction to my own emotional immaturity.

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« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2015, 07:11:53 AM »

The way I think of it, my actions speak louder than my words.

I guess though, my one action, also is not my total actions regarding a situation.

I suppose though, picking a person up from jail, is a pretty loud singular action.

Then another way I think of it, is would I expect more from a stranger?

Why would I easily call the police if a stranger punched me in the face, but I'd be less inclined to do so if it were my partner?  Why do people do that?  What would that communicate about me and how I expect my partner to treat me?  This is an idea I still haven't settled within me.
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« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2015, 09:17:21 AM »

I understand why the question comes up. You stop cleaning up after someone and you get a reaction like you would have stabbed that person in the back. Anything that could be a sign of loving less is held against you, what do you do? You are forced to retain the current level of pampering or all hell breaks loose. Does that sound familiar?
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« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2015, 09:31:22 AM »

Hey SunflOwer:

I’d love to take a stab at that theoretical questioning from my perspective knowing that we’re getting out of the typical responses of ‘use the tools’ and into our own personal perspective of direction we follow.

“Why would I easily call the police if a stranger punched me in the face, but I'd be less inclined to do so if it were my partner?  Why do people do that?”

People do that for two reasons in my perspective: one being “How will it affect my life if I call the police on my own partner? If it’s a stranger it won’t affect your life in any direct way but certainly will have repercussions on the other person given normal circumstances. However when it’s personal and the repercussion on your own spouse will affect your cohabited situation it raises the questions of balance.

Again, I’ll refer to an above statement of direction:  “On some dimension or other, every event in life can be causing only one of two things: either it is good for you, or it is bringing up what you need to look at in order to create good for you.”

That leads to the second issue and that is fear of the future. Not your spouses, but your own future, and honestly, that’s where the scrutiny should solely be placed on what is best for your future.

There is only one real and tangible answer in the case of physical abuse, particularly repeated abuse. The answer is NO. That isn’t something that should be acceptable or can bring good into your life. EVERY PERSON IS WORTH MORE THAN THAT.

But life isn’t that easy when the fear of what your future leaving that abusive situation would be. There’s the problem, and it’s a lack of self-confidence, learning, awareness or vision to understand that the future can and will be what you make it. Knowing that you deserve and can go forward to have better. The unforeseeable to some outweighs the known; and the balance is so heavily tipped by the fear of the future it affects making the ‘right’ and really; only decision.

Given the same situation I would take the initiative to find out from abuse centers that offer assistance and guidance what my options would be to remove myself from the situation given the problems that would exist for me in the situation. What will the financial repercussion be? How do I manage to mitigate that? What will be repercussions for my children (if I had them). Given a certain income or lack of is there financial assistance for housing and support? How do I get that?

That isn’t about weighing my options AGAINST the idea of staying for abuse. It’s learning, managing and decided on the route I AM going to take to remove myself from the situation.

The other is fears of loss of the current relationship; loneliness, self-dependence etc…It’s not knowing or perhaps feeling that  they can work their way through and be better than the current situation of physical abuse could ever bring. They can because there isn’t worse.

The fear of your own spouse is a horrifying place to exist and no one should consider existing with real fear of your own spouse coming home and the question of ‘what will tonight bring?” Particularly knowing what that potential and probability is. It is disabling and so desperate to live cowering in your own existence. I know the feeling well and was once there, but I’ll tell you I only feel to that level long enough to recognize I don’t have to live this way – and won’t.

I haven’t had the experience of physical abuse, but I do know it’s beyond a boundary I would accept – AT ALL. I certainly at one time fell into the realm of extreme fear of what leaving a really verbally abusive situation would be.

It’s when you come to a realization that you ‘FEAR your partner’ that you should know it’s time to rise above that and not allow that to overcome your life. Time to take a path you KNOW you can take and protect yourself taking it, or LEAVE it.

I chose to stay, but to rise up and take a different - better path to change that. Had it not been successful, which it was, no question in my mind that I would have left it. It has to be about what’s best for YOU and what YOU DESERVE as a person. Abuse is outside that realm that any one deserves.

It’s about having the strength to know you can move forward on your own and do better for yourself. We all can if it comes to that situation. It’s knowing YOU can and not being afraid of the unknown but embracing it and working well for what’s good for you in future decisions by learning from your past.

It becomes easy to settle in your mind if you can’t find real hope and see real results of something better: What do I deserve and knowing you deserve better than abuse and moving on to change that and remove it from your life so you can be the whole person that you are.

What we allow – we condone.

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« Reply #11 on: April 14, 2015, 02:29:41 PM »

 

IMO... ."teaching a lesson" is the wrong way to look at it.

Making emotionally healthy choices is a much better way.

So... what I can do for my partner might be much different for others.

If I know something is triggering or a sore spot... .or puts them in a mood to lash out... .I might should avoid that.


However... .doing affectionate things... .that are well received... is great for any r/s.

This morning I made some biscuits and took my wife one in bed... she seemed to appreciate it.

If I made her biscuits a couple mornings in a row... and it always caused a problem or argument... .me stopping that activity isn't about teaching a lesson... .it's about doing what works... and avoiding what doesn't.

If they learn a lesson... great.  If not... I still made a healthy choice for my r/s.

Thoughts?

FF
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« Reply #12 on: April 14, 2015, 03:44:06 PM »

Formflier:

My thoughts on that: Right ON 

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« Reply #13 on: April 14, 2015, 04:57:21 PM »

However... .doing affectionate things... .that are well received... is great for any r/s.

This morning I made some biscuits and took my wife one in bed... she seemed to appreciate it.

If I made her biscuits a couple mornings in a row... and it always caused a problem or argument... .me stopping that activity isn't about teaching a lesson... .it's about doing what works... and avoiding what doesn't.

If they learn a lesson... great.  If not... I still made a healthy choice for my r/s.

My first thought when I read this is "How do I do things without creating expectations from them?"

For example, if you made biscuits a couple of mornings in a row and they came to expect it. Then, you decided to stop making biscuits because you lost the desire to make biscuits. Because they came to expect it, your NOT making biscuits has become a problem. And that sometimes leads to the thought process of "I am going to make biscuits to avoid a problem or argument."

I hope that makes sense. Sometimes, I avoid doing things that might be good for the relationship because I want to avoid creating an expectation that I may or may not be able to live up to in the future.
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« Reply #14 on: April 14, 2015, 05:30:28 PM »

 

On another post I wrote some notes about doing my best.

I've stopped apologizing for my limitations.  In my case... I have a fairly high service connected disability rate... .so... .if my wife thinks that I'm "not like I used to be"... .she is right.

Some days... .I can do lots more than others... .I choose to celebrate those days... .and do what I can. 

On other days... .when I don't do so well... it is... what it is.  As long as in my mind I've "done my best"... .I don't worry about it.

The amount of conversations about why this and that aren't getting done have gone way down... .because I just don't participate.  I'll give one explanation... .to explain what I HAVE done.  Then... .I move along.

It used to be a favorite tactic of my wife to focus on what I handn't done... .and it was a negative... .but I would get no credit for things I hadn't done.  Both of those are infinite possibilities (the number of things your "failed" to do)

Anyway... .VOC... .I would encourage you to make the gestures... .and you enjoy them for you.  When grumps or vitriol comes your way... .just dodge the best you can.

When he wants to bring up the biscuits you didn't make... .say you were glad he enjoyed the biscuits that you have made... .and exit the conversation... .maybe allude to making them again in the future.

Thoughts?

FF
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« Reply #15 on: April 14, 2015, 06:47:35 PM »

IMO... ."teaching a lesson" is the wrong way to look at it.

Making emotionally healthy choices is a much better way.

So... what I can do for my partner might be much different for others.

If I know something is triggering or a sore spot... .or puts them in a mood to lash out... .I might should avoid that.


However... .doing affectionate things... .that are well received... is great for any r/s.

This morning I made some biscuits and took my wife one in bed... she seemed to appreciate it.

If I made her biscuits a couple mornings in a row... and it always caused a problem or argument... .me stopping that activity isn't about teaching a lesson... .it's about doing what works... and avoiding what doesn't.

If they learn a lesson... great.  If not... I still made a healthy choice for my r/s.

Thoughts?

FF

Jumping off this post. 

Suppose you make some biscuits, and take one to your wife in bed and she yells and throw it across the room. You do it several days in a row and get the same results. You would stop taking her biscuits because you believe bringing her biscuits makes her angry. But suppose the reality is that she LOVES the biscuits, but you are bringing them too early. If you stop bringing biscuits, the lesson she (ought to) learn is that she needs to ask you to bring the biscuits later. You do not stop bringing biscuits to "teach a lesson" but to protect yourself from thrown biscuits.

The quote that was used at the beginning was someone saying "Why deny the life lesson?" not "teach her a lesson". There is a big difference between getting a lesson from natural consequences, and someone trying to "teach" it to you.
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« Reply #16 on: April 14, 2015, 08:27:06 PM »

I guess I wonder about this a bit, and as I wonder, my thoughts are confusing to me.

Some of what I wonder... .

Our behavior communicates who we are. 

So if I choose to allow someone to curse at me, then I essentially communicate that I am the type of person that can be cursed at. 

But then, well, that depends on the interpretation of the listener doesn't it?

Couldn't it also mean that I am patient?  Or long suffering?

So then I wonder why it matters, if my behavior can be interpreted differently and is dependent upon the observer, then why should it matter at all?

Well, then I can also see that my behavior, is always communicating something to me, and I am always an observer of it.  So then maybe I should just always be behaving in a way that is consistent with me, my genuine self. 

And then I start to think I'm on to something.

But then I get confused again, because I have remained in situations and taken on behaviors, that I feel are not genuine to my self.  So this is the place I get confused again. 

Being in a r/s with a disordered thinking person has added to this confusion.  I have spent time thinking my behavior would "pay off" as I was sacrificing for "the greater good."  However, I have been shocked, time after time, when I observe, that my ideals of this "greater good" that I imagined, never do come to be.

So then I wonder again, and question my own motives. If I'm being continuously self sacrificing, then am I essentially fulfilling the role of a martyr?  If that is true, then my self sacrifices are actually selfishness disguised, and I am causing a harm to us both.

So then I wonder, how do I find the balance that will serve us both well?  A balance that brings us both strength or at least neutrality?

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« Reply #17 on: April 14, 2015, 09:01:15 PM »

So then I wonder, how do I find the balance that will serve us both well?  A balance that brings us both strength or at least neutrality?

You spend a lot of time reading the lessons and discussing what choices are emotionally healthy for you and your partner.

Even if you are ok with a choice... . but you know it is not healthy for your partner... . you should choose differently.

Many of us... . me included... . for years made choices that "felt" right... . or where for the greater good... . but really... .enabled a dysfunctional... . unhealthy... . r/s.

These new choices felt weird to me... . I was scared of them... . UNTIL I STARTED SEEING THEM WORK!

That took some time... . but it was faster than I expected.

Can you give some examples of things you wonder about?  Choices you are deciding on... .
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« Reply #18 on: April 14, 2015, 09:38:40 PM »

Hey SunflOwer:

You struggle so hard to find balance and I so understand that struggle. I found balance in finding the intimate understanding that if I'm not well, if I'm not attentive to creating or working toward my own happiness I don't stand a chance in supporting my wife finding her way to a better state of being.

I truly believe it has be yourself you focus on, strengthen, build healthy resolve that will always bring you happiness and that 'being true to yourself' and not sacrificing self is so important and so necessary on the path to finding and experiencing good growth. It has to start with balancing yourself and bringing better mental health to yourself first.

That's why this statement I keep throwing out is so, so important. It's the underlying guide to every decision that will bring you in balance and change indecisiveness to acknowledgement of what you deserve and who you deserve to be for yourself.

“On some dimension or other, every event in life can be causing only one of two things: either it is good for you, or it is bringing up what you need to look at in order to create good for you.”

The real important thing about that statement is " Firstly it has to be good for YOU. Throw that statement into the equation and then ask the questions. Use that statement along with all the learning you've already done and the answers become so much clearer.

I walk into everything I encounter, not just with my personal relationship with my wife but my entire life with the mindset and goal that positive begets positive and that's not always easy to maintain with some people and circumstances but it always comes out on the right side of the balancing scales in knowing I'm the best person I can be - that isn't a perfect person by any means, but the best person I know I can be. That's all a person can ask of themselves. Self-doubt or judgments by others no longer have an affect.

Like formflier said "If they learn a lesson... .great.  If not... .I still made a healthy choice for my r/s." Making a healthy choice for his relationship IS making a healthy choice and the right choice for him personally as well.

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