Marriage therapy fail

[Ceruleanblue]

My BPDh (who won't share his diagnosis with me), let me attend a session with his Psychiatrist, and he got referred to DBT therapy. He also got put on Wellbutrin. I did not suggest DBT therapy, but of course I knew about it. I'd previously ordered a book on DBT therapy to read, and it was for "high conflict couples". Guess which book disappeared? I'm sure he hid it/threw it away when I first got it last year.

So, BPDh ignored his Psychiatrists suggestion to get a new personal therapist, as he's been seeing her for four years, no results, and also for him to really work his DBT program. At least he's doing the DBT.

We also had two sessions with a therapist recommended by his "therapist" of four years... .you know, same practice. They knew I was skeptical, but agreed to a couple sessions. Well, yesterday DID NOT go well at therapy. She's basically saying we are equally at fault. Uhm, NO, we are not, and I've actually been the victim of physical assaults from him, and fully acknowledged to her that I'm as of this last week pretty mad at him for some recent awful ultimatums he pretty much gave me.

She doesn't seem to comprehend that he is in DBT therapy FOR A REASON, and she seems to want to lump way, way too much blame on me. BPDh basically sits there in marriage therapy, acts all innocent, takes some responsibility(for sarcasm, belittling me, mocking, and stonewalling), and I feel he is totally playing this marriage therapist. We spend most of the hour talking about HIS girls who hate me, weren't given any tools to use, and I'm done seeing her.

I want a therapist who understands BPD and DBT therapy, one who has experience with blended families. I'm done accepting blame that is not mine. He left there basically justifying his physical abuse of me. How is that okay? I'm not perfect, but I've tried using and learning the tools here, have read tons of books on r/s subjects, and now BPD, and have taken immense amounts of crap off his three grown girls too. I even recently apologized to them(and NO, they were not owed an apology, I just wanted to shut BPDh up about it... .and of course the apology was thrown in my face by all three girls, and now BPDh is still blaming me). I feel like I married into a crazy hornet's nest, and with the RIGHT therapist, along with his DBT therapy things could get better.

Am I right to seek out a new marriage therapist? I left there hurt yesterday, and feeling totally victimized by not only BPDh's blame, but also HERS. She said I was telling "how BPDh felt" a lot. Uhm, yeah, but only because I've listened to four years of "how he feels" and he was there to correct me if I misstated. I wasn't giving my assumptions, or projecting, I was giving FACTS. Wouldn't you think the fact that he has physically abused me, and is in DBT therapy give her a clue that while all blame isn't on him, the bulk of it probably is?

I've been killing myself, and making huge sacrifices to stay with him... .the most recent being moving away with BPDh, and letting my son live with my folks so he can finish high school. I've made HUGE sacrifices, gotten zero appreciation, and I'm struggling being without my son! How dare this therapist split the "blame" down the middle, and she ended the session that way. To me, it isn't about BLAME(which I live with from BPDh... .I never live anything down, for years), it's about getting the right TOOLS. I think we need a new marriage therapist?

What do you think?

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Ceruleanblue]

Some further questions I'd thought of:

Is marriage therapy at this time(right when he just started DBT) going to be too much, or of any benefit?

I've read Stop Walking on Eggshells, but should I reorder the DBT book for conflict couples?

How do I deal with BPDh twisting facts in marital therapy, and downplaying his behaviors, while lying and amplifying mine? It's so hard living with those with BPD, and it's a learning process, yet he holds me to such higher standards than he does himself, or most others. I'm afraid I'm going to blow at the next session(making ME look crazy) because I'm just so sick of his "act" and NO ONE unless you've lived with these chameleons really knows what it's like... .

[waverider]

Haven't done couples counselling, but I attend many of my partners counselling sessions. It is well known couples T sessions can get sidetracked into a blamefest.

My partner does get wrapped up in blaming everyone else and selling her own version of her own self assessments. It is very difficult for anyone but a BPD specialist to see past this, they may see it as smoke and mirrors, but it still hides the reality. It is common for false diagnosis to be the consequence

pwBPD often have an impaired ability to reach negotiated solutions to anything, and stick to them. Until this impairment is improved there is not a lot to be gained  by attempting this path.

The relationship issues are symptoms of a deeper flaw.

You can't paint a masterpiece with contaminated pigments.

[eyvindr]

With all due respect, I have a question.

Have you talked with your son about your decision to move away while he's still in high school? What does he think about all of this?

[wanttoknowmore]

YES. Marriage therapy usually fails in BPD couples. Because the sessions become battlegrounds to put down the partner and make him/her look bad. ITs like triangulation with therapist being pulled in two direction in the "war" between the BPD and Non spouse.

The only advantage of marital therapy ... if done correctly... can teach them some concrete tecniques to manage conflicts and improve civil communication.

[Michelle27]

I had the same kind of experience doing marriage counseling with my uBPDh 4.5 years ago.  It was horrible.  I felt totally victimized too after every session and we tried 3 different therapists.  He now says that he on purpose sabotaged it... .and wants to try again as he's just beginning exploring serious mental health help.  We are also starting a therapeutic separation tomorrow by renting a room elsewhere and taking turns, one week home with our daughter and one week away at the room.  I think we need to wait a bit before we try it again.

[an0ught]

Hello Ceruleanblue,

Some further questions I'd thought of:

Is marriage therapy at this time(right when he just started DBT) going to be too much, or of any benefit?

Based on your experience the current set-up does not work. May be your husband, may be the T still too eager to deepen relationship with husband or may be yourself being too much triggered as a lot of your wounds still bleed. The people in the room were not ready for a rationale discussion. The absence of reason is quite normal when dealing with an emotionally excited pwBPD. Getting where discussions have meaning will take a while.

How do I deal with BPDh twisting facts in marital therapy, and downplaying his behaviors, while lying and amplifying mine? It's so hard living with those with BPD, and it's a learning process, yet he holds me to such higher standards than he does himself, or most others. I'm afraid I'm going to blow at the next session(making ME look crazy) because I'm just so sick of his "act" and NO ONE unless you've lived with these chameleons really knows what it's like... .

You don't deal with them. Who cares about facts? Facts are way, way overrated. Emotions drive him so why bother with facts?

I've read Stop Walking on Eggshells, but should I reorder the DBT book for conflict couples?

Yes, the High Conflict Couple is an excellent book. To get a gist of the message please watch the book author talking about the topic Validation: Encouraging Peace in a BPD Family - Alan Fruzzetti, Ph.D [Video]. This one hour is worth your time even if you already have decided to get the book. Workshops and posting here on the board will complement your learning. Validating communication is something you can work right now and possibly even with your H. Rationale discussions comes later.

[Ceruleanblue]

Eyvindr:

BPDh hates my son, and in fact kicked both my kids out a week before our planned move. It was a horrid, horrid day. I'd given my son the choice to stay in our hometown, and live with his grandparents, or change schools, and come with us. My son chose to stay and finish out high school there, which I totally understand, but am understandably struggling with. We'd pretty much always been close, and he's my youngest. BPDh is still not willing to apologize to my son(he did my daughter who is 19), but he literally hates my son. I was pretty much forced to apologize to his three grown, mean, angry daughters, when I KNOW I did my best with them, and frankly, they are personality disordered, and huge control freaks, who never get over anyone. They bad talk everyone, and have all sorts of people they don't like.

I'm struggling because I miss my son, even though he encouraged me to move. He always encourages me to do what he thinks it the "right thing", even though he dislikes BPDh, due to how BPDh has treated him. There are so many double standards living with someone who has BPD. I'm expected to kiss his grown kids' butts, but my son, at 16 could do no right. I know my son can be mouthy, but it is only to me, and teens are known for that, and I never just excused it(as he does with anything his GROWN kids do). I've been disrespected by BPDh, and his three daughters, and only BPDh's family, and son have been accepting and good to me. In fact, BPDh's family has had it with his girls. BPDh left me for them once though, and I fear he'll do so again.

They withhold themselves and their grandkids, disallow me, and BPDh won't cross them. They won't be around me, and he is miserable not being with them, and he wants to be with them full time. It's a weird, weird sort of enmeshment... .

Now maybe this is something someone can answer? BPDh told me his DBT therapist told him he should do whatever makes HIM happy, even if it hurts me. This just doesn't sound right to me? Why are they even talking about his kids? He talks about this messed up situation at work now? Every marriage session we had, his sessions, now his DBT? It's like he's obsessed. He's more angry then ever, and this was the way he became right before he left me last time. I've become sole blame in all this. I've told him it's up to HIM if he sees his kids, but he wants to lay blame and say "you won't let me", which is crap. I'll feel bad, because he doesn't take any stand for me, and he treats them like gold, while he verbally abuses and blames me for EVERYTHING, but I've told him to GO. SEE. THEM... . and he chooses not to.

Is this all a game? And do you really think his DBT therapist actually told him "do what makes you happy"? Geesh, to me, it seems that is all he's been doing his whole life! Not caring about anyone's feelings but his own, and he's highly, highly narcissistic... .

I was so encouraged that he was finally in DBT, but he's either lying, or I don't know what I thought I knew about DBT! Plus he says the DBT therapist thinks he doesn't need group therapy as he's not suicidal or "as bad", but I'd bet he hasn't told her how physically abusive he's been to me. He justifies it, where once he'd apologized. Do you think he's lying to his DBT therapist, or to me?

[Ceruleanblue]

Well, we have a marriage therapy appointment for this coming Monday. This is the last attempt I make at marriage therapy for now. If we get nowhere, I'll just get back into solo therapy for me, and let him do his wasted weekly therapy(with T his psychiatrist told him was a waste of time... . four years no progress), and his DBT, which I have hopes will help. It's funny how he makes time for his hobbies, but doesn't seem to be doing his DBT work he's supposed to be doing. He waits until the day off, the rushes through it.

The T I chose says he specializes in personality disorders, but if I leave feeling like it was another blame fest from BPDh, I'm done with marital therapy. I'd like to go in, get some tools, not have the session be ALL negative, and feel some slight progress was made. That's probably asking too much for someone with full blown BPD, and likely NPD(I even suspect APD). He won't share his diagnosis, which I also find strange. Of course, he lies so much, and hides so much, that I shouldn't be surprised. He wants me of course, to tell him all, and to answer to him(which I've never had issue doing, but I find it ironic).

How should I go into the marriage session? Should I just not say much? I usually end up doing all the talking because BPDh just sits there, unless it's to lay blame, or act innocent. He's very, very good at acting as if he's "normal", and will only admit to belittling, mocking, and his anger. He gets upset if I mention the physical abuse, and he justifies it. He also says I'm his sole source of STRESS, although he worries obsessively about why two of his kids won't see him, and how he can "win them back". I wish he cared half as much about my feelings, but he never has, sadly. He lacks all empathy except for himself and his kids.

He always said I was making him choose between his kids and myself, when in fact I NEVER DID. THEY refuse to be around me, and now him, so it's actually them doing just what he accused me of. And in fact BPDh insisted we move, and said he "can't live with your son anymore" thereby making ME choose, and my son choose. My son knows I'd have stayed with him, if he's asked, but he knows I value marriage too. BPDh fails to see that he did to ME, exactly what he accused me of, but I never did. I even apologized to his kids, have kept trying with them and HIM, when all I get in heartache, and anger.

I want to stay, but I'm getting really down. I feel I gave up seeing my son daily, and FOR WHAT? To watch BPDh pine for his adult kids who disrespect him, and me? I get zero empathy(of course... . classic BPD), but I'm expected to "feel his pain" and feel great that he is so kind to his kids no matter how they treat me, yet my son was treated so abominably?

Probably addressing any of this is marriage therapy would be a waste of time? What is the most I can expect to get from marriage therapy, if it isn't a total bust? How do I get T to realize BPDh is in DBT for a very good reason, without setting BPDh off, and it becoming a blame fest?

[orderline]

Hi Cerulean

What a frustrating situation.

If you would be able to press the button that makes the relationship and your life perfect. What changes would be made in that miracle?

If it had been something more simple like a mechanical thing not working - when is it appropriate to step back and take a moment of unproblematic thinking?

What makes us approach a problem? Is it because we a sure we can fix it? Or is it we can not accept the problem and think we have to fix it.

Especially BPD machinery is a great temptation because at times it works just fine and we think we can have more of that. The problem is it is controlled by signals going wild in someones brain and it is silly we think we have any real power over them. We just dont.

What we can do is simple actions that calms the person down or does not fire them up. We can protect ourselvs and our dignity set boundaries with no blame and try to stay sain and happy.

If we split the process into separate phases where we are on and off the problem instead of constantly being on it? Being engaged all the time is exhausting and at the end we are so entangeled we could actually BE the problem, or at least not effective, just by being so upset.

I suggest you just give up for a while and focus on something else that can succeed. This will restore your self confidence and you will be less affected by bad signals. Let the bad machinery run on its own battery and observe where it gets the energy to spin. I suspect who ever spins the bad machinery will feel it is much less interesting if you do not get upset. You being upset and affected may be the main attraction here. BPDs are not as effective in a naked room.

They fire up in relationships and the fuel is many times feed by the "innocent" bystanders making demands or not understanding their weird and unfair world. The major problem is you can not understand because PBD is largely confusion and constatntly variating and poorly managed feelings and actions. The core of the problem is dysregulation but the environment is drawn in to the whirlpool and contributes to the total inertia of the catasthrophe. We think we can talk to the BPD and convince them to think and act another way. We think we can prove them wrong.

The fun thing is - If you actually succeed in proving them wrong and they for a second agree they go crazy and the next second their laser shield has to be repaired and you are back on square one.

Even if you build the most valuable confidence and you are perfect - they will at times ruin it and it will be worth nothing. They will disapoint you and be careless and unappropriate.

They can not take our blame for all that. It is unusual they admit to any kind of fault because they bravely fight all the time with fixing conflicting thoughts and feelings just as I would do given the same brain.

My favorite policy is to get off the problem if anyone involved is upset. The world of upset is unreal and nothing useful has ever been made there. Also consider the parts you are working on are to hard to assemble and exist in the real world and are caused by molecules and atoms. Think before acting and do not expect success just by mere coinsidence.

Stand in what you know as a fact and work from there.

• A typical example of a fact is : "He is here in the room and his voice is at 86 decibel"
  
  A typical non fact: "His children hate me I can see it in their eyes"

[formflier]

 

Ceruleanblue,

   

I've been there too... . I stuck it out... . and I and my r/s are much better because of it... .because I stuck out M/C... .and other T... . and kept on trying.

There is a lot to address and work with in your posts... . and knowing we have until this coming Monday helps set a timetable.

Please check back as much as you can and keep posting... . I'll take up a couple posts trying to respond to some of the things you have on here.

Feeling blamed is hard... . you deserve many many hugs for sticking it out and trying to improve your r/s... . the good news is... . that your partner seems more interested in mental health issues.  

Let's run with that... . let's use this opening to make emotionally healthy choices for your r/s.  Even if those choices are not your "top pick" for things to change... .  Sometimes progress needs to be made in other areas... . sometimes you need to focus on stopping the bleeding... . before work on "core issues" can start.  

You can do this!  We'll help you do this!  

FF

[formflier]

I suggest you just give up for a while and focus on something else that can succeed. This will restore your self confidence and you will be less affected by bad signals. Let the bad machinery run on its own battery and observe where it gets the energy to spin. I suspect who ever spins the bad machinery will feel it is much less interesting if you do not get upset. You being upset and affected may be the main attraction here. BPDs are not as effective in a naked room.

Orderline,

Loved your post... . lots of good stuff in there.

What I quoted above is excellent advice.  I give it a little different nuance.  ":)ealing with" pwBPD traits takes a lot of energy... . energy is in limited supply.  So... . don't put energy and resources into a failing battle.  "picking" your battles is very important... . especially in the stage where you are trying to stop the bleeding.

FF

[formflier]

Ceruleanblue,

OK... . I've done MC for over 5 years now... . several different therapists... . different levels of success. A MC session was where I was told about BPD after an epic "fail"... . and wife stomped out of room... . literally stomped out.  

I'm going to give several pieces of advice or statements... . please evaluate to see it they apply... . I'm not saying the do apply... . but it is likely that they do... . at some level.

1.  The MC therapist is not a judge... . they should not "pick sides"... . so... . don't expect them to come to "your side"... .  It's human nature to want to be validated and have people agree with you... . especially when you believe you have been wronged.  This type of attitude of trying to convince the MC (and your partner) with "facts" gets in the way of repairing a damage r/s.  Especially a r/s where one partner has traits of BPD.  The facts don't matter (to them).  

The feelings do matter (to them)

I'm not saying this is right or wrong... . but I guarantee you it is  Repeat that to yourself... . let that sit.  It's not fair... . but it is the state of things "right now".  We hope to improve that.  

Any strategy that deals with "facts" instead of feelings will most likely invalidate your partners feelings... . and that doesn't work well... . right now.

2.  Blame

Let him blame who he wants... . he is trying to "get rid" of the blame... .the responsibility.  This only works for him if you pick it up  Arguing with him about it is a form of picking it up.  

Bottom line... . he blames because he "gets something out of it".  It works for him... . it doesn't seem to work for you.  So... .stop it.  You are 100% in control of whether you accept the blame at all.  You have 0% control over him trying to hand the blame to you.

Given those "facts"... . about who controls accepting blame... .where should you put your time and effort?

3.  :)on't participate in each others mental health work.  There is about zero chance a trained therapist said it is ok for him to feel good by hurting others.  Zero.  To me... .this seems to be another way to get rise out of you.

MC is not for him... . or for you... . it is for the r/s.  So... .totally fine to both participate there.

Are you seeing your own T now?

I'll be back soon with more!  

Hang in there!

 

FF

[MaybeSo]

Excerpt From The Couples Institute, on How to Get The Most Out of Couples Therapy written by Pete Bader, who has probably done more therapy with more high conflict couples than anyone…

Important Concepts for Couples Therapy and Relationships

Attitude is Key

When it comes to improving your relationship, your attitude toward change is more important than what action to take.

Identifying what to do and how to do it is often easy to identify. The bigger challenge is why you don’t do it.

How to think differently about a problem is often more effective than just trying to figure out what action to take.

Your partner is quite limited in his/her ability to respond to you.

You are quite limited in your ability to respond to your partner.

Accepting that is a huge step into maturity.

The definite possibility exists that you have some flawed assumptions about your partner’s motives. And that he/she has some flawed assumptions about yours. The problem is, most of the time we don’t want to believe those assumptions are flawed.

Focus on Changing Yourself Rather than Your Partner

Couples therapy works best if you have more goals for yourself than for your partner. I am at my best when I help you reach objectives you set for yourself.

Problems occur when reality departs sharply from our expectations, hopes, desires and concerns. It’s human nature to try and change one’s partner instead of adjusting our expectations. This aspect of human nature is what keeps therapists in business.

The hardest part of couples therapy is accepting you will need to improve your response to a problem (how you think about it, feel about it, or what to do about it). Very few people want to focus on improving their response. It’s more common to build a strong case for why the other should do the improving.

You can’t change your partner. Your partner can’t change you. You can influence each other, but that doesn’t mean you can change each other. Becoming a more effective partner is the most efficient way to change a relationship.

It’s easy to be considerate and loving to your partner when the vistas are magnificent, the sun is shining and breezes are gentle. But when it gets bone chilling cold, you’re hungry and tired, and your partner is whining and sniveling about how you got them into this mess, that’s when you get tested. Your leadership and your character get tested. You can join the finger pointing or become how you aspire to become.

You can learn a lot about yourself by understanding what annoys you and how you handle it.

The more you believe your partner should be different, the less initiative you will take to change the patterns between you.

[Ceruleanblue]

Thanks all for such good suggestions. I'm so glad I posted this before we go to MC on Monday. I don't need any marriage therapist to "take sides", but I do expect THEM to not say blame is split down the middle! To me, that shows a complete lack of her comprehension of how marriages with a personality disordered person work. Heck, I feel in "normal" marriages, there is often one person who tries harder, or works at it more, and that's okay. The problem in marriages with PD's is that, it's way, way more than that. I guess this therapist's statement, and attitude, and lack of offering any good advice I could act on was the clincher for me.

I'm only looking to "stop the bleeding" for now. In addition to using the tools I've learned here. To me, I'm hoping "I" can learn some things, in MC, because I know BPDh isn't likely to get much out of it. I've been down that road a lot. I have done quite a lot of individual therapy, but am not currently in it. We moved, and I'm not feeling overly down(other than the situation warrants due to moving, and moving away from my son), or like I have to be in therapy right now. I always go when I feel I need to. I'm a huge advocate of therapy. I'll probably eventually start back up, but I want to get settled in first, and also I'm not sure we can even afford it, because BPDh is going twice a week, once to DBT, and once to his "regular" therapist(the one his psychiatrist told him was a waste of time... . as he's gone four years, and advised getting a new therapist... . BPDh ignored this, of course). He's bonded, or I feel codependent on his oldest therapist.

And I think you are right about "facts" setting him off. I try to keep things factual, but he gets set off by that, maybe because he knows simple facts don't lie, and they make all his justifying, and blame irrational looking? I don't know, I just know I'll have to work on that.

I do know that I can only work on ME, and I can't expect change from him. I'm hoping the DBT works, but I'm not counting on it. I've radically accepted that this is who he is, and that I need to find ways around it, while trying to not make it worse. Now, I do however want the physical abuse he justifies to STOP. That is my line in the sand, and I understand the BPD is the cause, but I do want that to stop. Is that even reasonable to expect? He knows I have boundaries about this, but he pushes them. He knows I'd call the police if he hit me, and the time he went after my son, he stopped, probably because he knew that is the one time I'd FIGHT, and he might lose. No one will hurt my kids! He did however throw my kid out, in that same incident.

Also, because our first session is together, I still plan to mention that BPDh just started DBT. Is that okay? I'm not trying to slant things "my way", because I'd like to be a "team" with BPDh(realize that probably isn't easy with anyone with BPD or NPD, or APD), but I feel I need to let him know? I mean, this T can't help unless he knows that BPD is a factor? And BPDh has a history of playing "victim" and projecting. How do I deal with that in therapy. I'm tempted to just sit there and not say much, but that won't make good use of our time?

I also need to work on not picking up the blame, just because BPDh puts it all on me. He knows I don't buy into it, but I think by arguing, or even stating "that isn't true" he gets something out of it? How do I handle the blame in a better way? I've tried JADE, and SET, but they don't seem to work very good for me/us. Maybe I'm not doing it right, or BPDh is just an especially hard case?


I'm at a loss as to what to expect from this coming session. I just want some tools to make daily life easier, and even slight, slight improvement would make me ecstatically happy!

[MaybeSo]

Now, I do however want the physical abuse he justifies to STOP.

I know you have heard this before, but couples therapy is not usually undertaken when DV is a current or 'up' issue.

If this was way in the past, then maybe there is a potential for some healing to occur but that still doesn't happen by having a therapist side in a couples session that he is more to blame.  In fact, the word blame isn't really all that useful in therapy... . taking responsibility for 100 percent of your part... . is usually the phrase used for both people, not the word 'blame'.

Therapy is hard.  It can be shame producing even when done skillfully.  Thank goodness the therapist is NOT getting into debates about who is more to blame.  It is unproductive and it can actually stimulate a shame spiral that could easily trigger MORE potential for violence, not less.

If you don't feel safe, maybe couples therapy is not the right thing for you right now.

If you move forward, mentioning DBT is not a big deal.  DBT is used for just about everything under the sun these days... . it is not reserved for BPD.  He has a history of treatment, presumably your couples counselor has some understanding of each of your past including treatment, diagnosis either through individual interview or through getting a release to share info with other professionals. Again, I think you make assumptions about how in the dark or ignorant the therapist is about him.  I think your best bet is really to keep your focus on yourself.  That includes not doing therapy if you think he poses a real physical threat to you.

[Ceruleanblue]

Maybeso: I don't think I'm making assumptions about what the therapist knows about BPDh. This is a new marriage therapist for us, and our first session is coming up, so naturally, he'll know nothing about either of us. That is sort of what worries me. I don't think anytime you are married to someone with any type of major personality disorder, it's quite like doing marriage therapy with a partner who doesn't have one.

I am only looking for what "I" can learn in the sessions. I've been to enough MC with BPDh to know he gets very little out of it other than manipulating the T, and shifting all blame to me. He's not open to compromise, and blames me for all, but he does acknowledge he belittles me, and that his anger is a huge issue. So my goal is just to get what "I" can from it. I've radically accepted that my husband is who he is, and I can only work on or change ME.

It would be nice to get some advice in person about how to not set off BPDh's dysregulations, and triggers. The problem is, BPDh really doesn't want to talk about those in therapy, he's more focused on the issue with his kids, and everything he thinks I "do wrong". I just want some sound advice on how to make MY life more pleasant. How to avoid conflict with BPDh, and how to deal most effectively with him when he dysregulates(which might even be not dealing with it at all... .as in walking away).

I do know I'm not going to get suckered into defending myself against all the blame coming from BPDh in this coming session. It's hard to do, because most of what BPDh says is pretty outrageous, and he twists facts, or outright lies, and it's so tempting to get irate, and set the record straight, but he's obviously getting something out of my doing that, so I'm going to try to resist. Maybe I flat statement of "that isn't the way I see it,"or ".that isn't the way I remember it"... .then silence, not defending myself? Or maybe I just shouldn't correct his misrepresentations at all?

This might be MC, but I'm definitely doing it so I can find some tools to use. I really expect nothing from BPDh, sadly. He can't or won't, but I can, so I have to make up the difference. I guess that is part of radical acceptance, maybe. Maybe someday, if his DBT therapy works, couples therapy could become something we both get something out of, and we can actually work together. If this proves not beneficial, I'll just get in individual therapy again. Not because I'm feeling badly, or depressed, but I need to have a plan on how to have more peace in my life, and some skills to use.

[MaybeSo]

My apologies, I may have misunderstood and thought you had seen this therapist already.  In any event, new or not, clinicians typically take a thorough history, do an assessment, get information about meds and other classes, groups or any other treatment, and get releases to consult with docs and other providers etc when they begin working with a new couple or individual.  That's a normal standard of care for an MFT or psychologist.  I don't know any clinicians that don't assess and take a history and consult with other treating clinicians, and when you do that... .you get a good idea of what your are dealing with,  that was what I was referring to when I suggested your therapist shouldn't be completley 'in the dark' about who they are seeing.  

I know there are bad therapists out there, hopefully that's not the case here. If they have been practicing for a long time, they should be pretty skilled... .that doesn't mean its still not tuff to do couples therapy... .  I think if you work with anyone who understands and has experience working with trauma and attachment issues, then you have someone who understands stuff like BPD.

The skills on this website are pretty state of the art in terms of learning better communication tactics, emotional validation, SET, DEARMAN, basic boundaries, not engaging when either of you are already dysregulated, etc.   They may be called something slightly different or packaged a bit differently elsewhere but it all tends to be pretty similar.

The hard part is actually utilizing and embracing new skills.  

Probably the biggest skill that goes the farthest and fuels all other techniques, is keeping your focus on your own paper.  It sounds so simple, but it's really the hardest thing to do.  I was on this board at least three years before I even began to slightly shift my focus a bit... .and that was after three years of everyone telling me on the board to shift my focus back to myself.  

In couples therapy, it is again about keeping your focus on yourself, because it's the only thing you have any control over and it helps break-up the enmeshment that keeps these relationships unhealthy and sticky.  Often that will feel like the therapist is blaming or taking a side or picking on you... .and it seems unbelievable that they don't see how much sicker the other person is. This is almost universal and not typically about the therapist being easily manipulated or clueless... .there are certain frames that are held in couples therapy, and one is that each person is 100 per cent responsible for their contribution, or some version of that frame.   How we respond to that is pretty diagnostic, too. When a therapist holds that frame, it can feel like they must be idiots to not see what a complete jerk this person is and they are falling for our partners's 'nice' persona in session. Again, a skilled couples counselor has seen it all, you aren't presenting anything that they haven't seen already, they still maintain a attitude of unconditional positive regard and they push responsibility and ownership of your part of the problem.  Almost EVERYONE in couples therapy is surprised at first about that.

Almost everyone upon entering therapy 'thinks' it's obvious that their partner is the main problem.  The problem is, both people feel this way with equal conviction in almost every couple that goes to therapy. Certainly this is so of high conflict couples.

So, what approach would the therapist take?  They are not judges.  They are relating experts.  

So... .if therapists got caught into that dynamic that says my partner is clearly the main problem here... . nothing would ever get accomplished.  The therapist has to interrupt the pattern, and not become part of it.  Couples therapy can be incredibly uncomfortable.  They are watching to see how you handle discomfort.

I still am not clear on what the safety factors are for you... .why you are doing couples therapy with someone you fear will continue to physically harm you.  That is again a standard assessment question that should always be explored the first session, the first individual assessment, or on the phone even before you guys come in.

Good luck whatever your decision, I hope it goes okay for you!

[formflier]

 

Ceruleanblue,

It is likely that you will have some alone time with the counselor.  I would ask them what they think is helpful to say... .when you had a "different experience" than your partner.

This was big part of my r/s for a while... .still is. 

Proving your side or you are right... .usually doesn't go down a good road.

I try to be open to the idea that I didn't remember right.  If it is something where there is a record... .I will suggest it might be helpful to consult that.  Wife refuses... .issue drops.   Not sure if that is "best" way... .but it's what I'm doing now.

I love "help me understand... ."... .because it helps me be more gentle... .less accusing... .and does accurately reflect my goal.

"Help me understand how you know what I was thinking and feeling... ."  Wife:  You're just trying to blah blah blah... .

Me:  Hmm... .again... .I don't understand how you figure out my motivations... .

Current therapist is very experienced... .and will usually redirect to ask my wife to explain her feelings... .nudge things back.

If I ask... .eye rolls and all that... .if T asks... .we usually get somewhere.

So... .I wish MC was more productive... .but there is value and things are being accomplished. 

I encourage you to keep at it!

[Ceruleanblue]

I do realize that therapists have to be "neutral", and am certainly not trying to convince them that BPDh is a nutcase. I just want them to realize that this isn't a "typical" marriage issue, due to his PD, and high anger issues. I don't want this session to become another blame fest aimed at me, and I fear that. I guess I'm just not up to it now. I'm just so sick of that. I think my husband does it to bait me actually. At this point, I've more than stated "why" I did something, how my motives were not meant the way he perceived it, and I'm just done trying to convince him I'm not this awful person he projects onto me. Again, I can't change him or his views, I can only change ME, and my reaction to his views.

I'd like to be a team again, and to be friends. While I know only he can work his DBT program, I'd ideally like to find some ways I can "help" him, even if it's by not setting him off, or learning to use to tools here more effectively. I'm sure a good T will be familiar with these tools. And maybe some will work better than others with my husband, because what works with one person won't with someone else. We are all individuals, after all.

Personally, I think my husband is in a deep depression due to his kids calling him "toxic", and not wanting much to do with him. He could become the most emotionally healthy person, and he'd still be dealing with dysfunctional, adult kids, that create drama, and he has zero boundaries. I sure hope DBT helps with that, because that is what causes him, and US the most issue. His three daughters want our marriage to fail(his son has always been great), and almost all our issues, other than husband's anger, stem from this issue. I'm not saying his BPD isn't a factor, it is, but I feel it's highly set off by his kids' lack of closeness to him. His whole identity is tied up with/in them. Total enmeshment. His last wife had issue with this(and she's their mother), and now I'm living with it. I'm lonely, I've been asked to leave my son behind with family, I'm struggling, and I have to act all chipper and upbeat when I'm not feeling up to it.

I'll keep you all posted on how it goes tonight. Maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised, and I'll get some tools to use, and it won't be a blame fest. One can always hope 

[formflier]

At this point, I've more than stated "why" I did something, how my motives were not meant the way he perceived it, and I'm just done trying to convince him I'm not this awful person he projects onto me. Again, I can't change him or his views, I can only change ME, and my reaction to his views.

If you stick to this... .it will pay great benefits

FF

[Ceruleanblue]

Well, I really like the T, and on the whole, it went better than I'd anticipated. BPDh of course, sneakily brought up something we'd made a tactic agreement never to bring up(has no bearing on our marriage, his kids, nothing, it's just a hurtful time in my life that I've put behind me and worked out already in personal therapy). He does things like that I think to "punish" me. So time was wasted talking about this which is now a non issue in our marriage, but a very unpleasant subject for me(I basically don't think about this other than when husband brings it up... .I've made peace with it).

The therapist said pretty much a lot of the things that everyone has been saying, but I'm hoping his presentation got through to my husband better. I don't feel I got any "tools" I need to deal with BPDh's personality disorder yet, but we'll get to that, I'm sure. As always, the focus just had to be about husband's KIDS! T was very clear that our marriage needs to come first, as these kids are grown. He also pointed out that it seems these grown kids seem to lack emotional maturity. Coming from T, it went over much better than when I tried saying the same thing, using the kindest of terms. Husband has me painted so black, that he just wants to misinterpret things I say, no matter how I couch them at this point.

I do feel we now have a plan about dealing with husband's kids, but I'm just hoping husband will actually follow T's advice. I've done all I can do in that hornet's nest of dysfunction, even down to apologizing for things I didn't do, and now kids won't see me(other than step son who has always been fine with me), so I'm choosing to look on this as a BREAK for me and all their spiteful behaviors, lies, drama, and dysfunction. As T pointed out, this is husband's responsibility to deal with his kids, and present to them that our marriage matters, and that nothing his kids do should be allowed to come between US. That his kids need to know that, and come to the realization that they are missing out. They have their own issues to deal with, and growing up to do.

T did seem to set off further issues though with my husband... .I'll start a new blog about that. Husband came home from DBT therapy last night, and before ourMC same night, he was just awfully verbally abusive to me, dysregulated, and stormed off, and wouldn't even drive with me to MC(and I'm new to this area, and get lost easily... .so he did this to "pusnish me", I'm sure). I'm looking forward to further sessions in MC, where I can get the tools I need to stay grounded in this up/down, push/pull environment. I want more peace, and I want to be about to feel centered no matter what BPDh throws at me. I think that is a good goal for ME.

[formflier]

 

Good... .I'm glad you like the T.

Can you tell us more about the plans of how to "deal" with the grown children?  Was a timeline set out?

FF

[Ceruleanblue]

Yeah, there wasn't really a "timeline" set out, which is very worrying to me. It's already been four hellish years of this crap. The non "timeline" issue is my only concern with this therapist's plan. I've been on a step parent blog site, and some of these grown step kids keep up this vendetta for years! Plus, they already managed to convince my husband to leave me once. He says it was "other issues", but I feel, due to his BPD, he gets dissatisfied(and he is definitely hugely unsatisfied when his kids aren't up his butt, his whole identity is tied up in them, something I didn't realize prior to marrying him), and he starts looking for "issues" with ME, and with our marriage. I think it's sort of like projecting, in a way?

The T says it could take years for BPDh's grown kids to realize they are "missing out", and BPDh's job is to "talk us up", and not let the kids hog holiday time, and divide us, put the marriage first. I have a huge suspicion that these kids are all likely some form of PD, or at least hugely effected by the chaos they grew up in. It was so bad that BPDh has knife wounds from his ex, their mother, and he always covered for her in the ER, but of course the kids knew. They've forgiven their mother(at my urging, no less!), after her infidelity, but now I'm the target, and BPDh is because he came back to our marriage.

I'm okay knowing that it will take some time, but I don't want to waste years, like 10 years, for peace and harmony. For myself, I wouldn't care if I ever saw those three mean adult girls again, but for BPDh's sake, I want peace, and for him to have us all be able to be around each other. He's had therapists tell him that his daughters are doing this to control him, and how wrong it is to use their kids as pawns.

Plus, BPDh can be absolutely horrid to me, but he can't seem to stand up to his girls, or say anything on my behalf. His ex was also terribly jealous of these girls, and they were her daughters. Now, BPDh is doing the same weird bond type thing with MY 19 year old daughter. I'm not sure if this is a BPD trait, but he sure checks all of the other boxes for BPD other than self harm. He definitely self sabotages all his relationships though.

I'll go along with the "plan" for as long as I can, but I really want to know that BPDh isn't just happy to forever let them cause drama, and be scared to mention our marriage or me to them. I'd NEVER allow my kids to treat him this way.

And to me, I'm not sure how much of a "plan" this is when to me it seems like these girls are getting exactly what they want: not having to include me as BPDh's wife, and all the time they want with him. I'm just not sure how what the therapist says will happen: that they'll eventually feel they are "missing out"? They hate me, and project things onto me, so how will they ever feel they are "missing out"? I think the T is the type of man who could make the plan work, but BPDh I think lacks those skills and boundaries, and is even afraid of doing the things the T was saying to do to promote his kids accepting our marriage.

I'm really hoping that next session, we get more into ways to "get along"... .meaning I want some tools I can use when dealing with a dysregulated husband, but of course I can't say that to the T. So many of BPDh's moods seem tied up with his kids, and I never know it because he hides it from me. If they text, or call, and are awful to him, I catch it for days, I just don't know why(until I eventually find out because he tells me what they did). I'm sick of paying a high price for the whole PD lot of them.

I want/need to find a way to rise above the craziness. Love my husband, but not the behavior, and not get sucked into it.

[formflier]

 

Can you tell me what it would look like... .so that if the T asked... .you would say your hubby was sticking to the "plan"?


Can you lay out the plan a little clearer for me?

[an0ught]

Hello  Ceruleanblue,

from reading your experiences you are quite focused on discussing your H's behavior in your relationship and also on the T getting a good understanding of your situation. To a large extent you seem to make progress. Good to see that and good for you.

T did seem to set off further issues though with my husband... .I'll start a new blog about that. Husband came home from DBT therapy last night, and before ourMC same night, he was just awfully verbally abusive to me, dysregulated, and stormed off, and wouldn't even drive with me to MC(and I'm new to this area, and get lost easily... .so he did this to "pusnish me", I'm sure). I'm looking forward to further sessions in MC, where I can get the tools I need to stay grounded in this up/down, push/pull environment. I want more peace, and I want to be about to feel centered no matter what BPDh throws at me. I think that is a good goal for ME.

For the endeavor to succeed and to be sustained it may be equally important that

 T-H relationship is developing well and T validates H

 H is getting validation out of the session

It may pay to keep an eye on that. Relationship formation takes time and moving too fast can leave some groundwork unfinished.

[Ceruleanblue]

The MC "plan" is: BPDH husband spends as much time as he wants with his adult kids(two of whom call him toxic and refuse to even see him), and when he does see them, he is supposed to talk positively about our marriage, and show them pictures of us having good times in our marriage. My part of the plan is to stay away from his kids(other than his son who I've always had a good relationship with), and let BPDh "handle it", and "work" on his kids coming to realize that they can't divide and conquer our marriage. To come to see that they are missing out.

We are supposed to be letting ourselves be happy, and I'm all for that, but BPDh just isn't able to "be happy" without his kids full acceptance, and if they are happy with him, and trust me, they are never happy. They deal with cutting, depression, mood swings, harboring grudges. I so wish we could just focus on BPDh's DBT therapy, our marriage therapy, and adjusting to the move we just made. I'm facing lots of changes with the move, my son staying behind, and now it feels like BPDh moved me here, just to target me even worse. I will become happier, but it sure is hard when BPDh just wallows in blame and misery!

Now, I'm sure BPDh will tell T that he is doing "the plan". I'll have no way of knowing, and the way I see it, T doesn't yet realize just how BPDh's behaviors are totally effected by his kids' rejection of him. I'm sure he's had BPD(and NPD), his entire life, but this has escalated his behaviors terribly.

I know we'll both be able to go along with the plan, but my fear is that BPDh will just lie. He lies constantly to cover for his kids(or just himself for no good reason). He's outright told me that he is afraid to mention me to his girls for fear of "rocking the boat" or "setting her off".

I would never have married BPDh if I'd known he had these rages, traits, and acts as if he's married to his grown adult kids, and lets them run his life(and when he doesn't he's angry and miserable and takes it out on me). He'll say his kids "don't get to pick who he's with", but he acts as if they do.

I so wish that I was only dealing with BPD, but I've got all these BPD acting adult kids I'm dealing with too... .They ALL blame me, lie about me, and I've had two T tell me I've done all I can do! In fact my psychiatrist said I'd done all I could do, and BPDh's T of four years, said she knew I wouldn't have put up with these behaviors from anyone else, but seeing they are BPDh's kids... .I have. She said that right in front of my husband, but he still blames solely ME. Logically, he knows I've done all I can, but BPD is an emotional disorder, so I keep getting caught in his rages, anger and BLAME.

He's far, far too angry to want sex with me, which was his "goal" this with is DBT. How weird is that? That his DBT therapist set that as a "goal"? Sort of creeps me out. Yeah, I have verbally expressed to my husband that his withholding hurts me, but shouldn't they work on his resentment and anger first? I'm just confused by all of this.

[formflier]

but BPD is an emotional disorder, so I keep getting caught in his rages, anger and BLAME.

How are you doing at not accepting blame?  One of the strategies it sounds like you are working on ... .is accepting and understanding that the blame is not about you... .it is not yours... .so... .let it stay with the "blamer"... .or let is sit on the floor.

It help me visual a game of tag... .or a game of "toss the ball"

If BPDh husband tries to toss you a ball you don't want to catch... .or know your shouldn't catch... .because it's not yours... .you don't catch it.

Trust me... .he won't like it... .but if you are consistent... .eventually he will toss the "ball" less and less.

FF

[Ceruleanblue]

Formflier:

So what are some ways to "not catch the ball"? You know, things I can say when he lobs blame at me, that won't set him off?

Here are things I've been hearing for years:

1. "You contributed"... .(I wasn't perfect, but I really didn't. Maybe I could have handled their anger a tad better, but even now, I don't see how. The one time his daughter went off, I left MY home to get away from her). What's a good non-inciting response to this, or is just zero response better?

2. "Such and such you did was mean" (again, he's imagining this, but to him, it's true, yet he totally overlooks things he witnessed them do and say to me). I can't convince him that I never intentionally did anything "mean", ever. I'm done trying. I'm one of those people who thinks first, then talks, and tries to never offend anyone, so this is baffling to me that he seems to want to think this of me. THIS one really gets me, and he knows it's the ONE thing most likely to get a response from me. What do I say, or not say to this?

3. "I don't care about your feelings or opinions"... .he stopped saying this for a while, but he screamed it at me yesterday. This one makes me worry he could be a socio... .not just BPD. I don't care what the label is, I just want to know how to respond to his anger/dysregulation. What's a good response to this one?

4. "You can't do this, you can't do that... .". Yesterday, it was I had to put the last and only picture of my son away for the sake of "fairness". None of this has been fair on me. His idea of fairness is HIM always getting his way, which he's very, very good at. I moved away from my 16 year old son, and I'm struggling with that, and 16 year old son has been great through all this. Now, BPDh is so non compassionate and hateful, I can't even have a picture out? I put it away, but I'm so hurt, and I think constantly giving in to BPDh makes him worse? How should I have responded, or how do I respond to future demands?

Any good statements that are sort of a one size fits all for these blaming, negative, or inaccurate statements people with BPD tend to make? I've tried S.E. T, and the T part always seems to make him dysregulate, and angers him... .And I try not to JADE... .

[formflier]

 

Many times... .zero response is the best.

If there is an emotion you can validate... .sometimes that is the best.

There is a format I have used some... .STOP

Sorry you feel that way.

That's your opinion

Ohh

Perhaps you are right.

Personally... .I avoided the last one... .as I didn't want to suggest that my wife was right.  The key seemed to be to not have a tone when you are responding... .to be even.

I've also said things like... .

"I'm prepared to continue this conversation when we can both talk properly about it... ."  Note:  Don't "accuse" and  say "you aren't talking properly"

Here is the thing... .your husband is entitled to want you to do all kinds of things... .move pictures... .whatever.  You are entitled to want to not move them.

He can't force you to move them... .you can't force him to stop wanting them to be moved.

Remember... .BPD is an emotion driven thing.  They blow in and out.  So... .many times... .if you can put off the situation for a while... .it will be over and be like it never happened.

"Interesting... .it's obvious you have put a lot of thought into this... .I'll need time to consider it as well... ."  Then change the subject.

If he keeps pestering you... ."Help me understand how (whatever he is doing... .described vaguely) helps me consider your proposal... ."

Thoughts on some of these suggestions?

[Ceruleanblue]

Formflier:

I think your suggested are great! I'm open to trying things, just to see if they work. It all seems to be a lot of trial and error. I'm definitely going to try the STOP technique, but like you, I'm going to leave off the "perhaps you are right", and let him think I'm okay with his dysregulated thinking. I don't mind validating, but I also don't want to appear to "cave in" to his every whim, because I've done so much of that. I wanted peace, almost at any price, and I think it just made his behaviors worse. I sort of just did it again, because I took down my kids' pictures, just to have peace. I know I shouldn't have, and now I feel HORRIBLE about it. I needed the picture of my son now. I put my sons' picture as my phone screensaver, and I can tell that it is bothering BPDh, even though he hasn't said anything yet.

I need to really try to just let things blow over, but I've found with BPDh that they rarely do. I wish he was the BPD type where that was the case! He seems to let resentment build and build, never let me live anything down, and the pictures have been a source of contention for a few years. He tends to wear me down. He lived with my kids for four years, and now after kicking my son out, he can't even stand a picture around? My son isn't perfect, but he really didn't do anything to deserve BPDh's behaviors towards him. BPDh seemed to take sick pleasure in targeting me and my son, while putting my daughter on a pedestal. All very BPD behaviors, or at least dysfunctional behaviors, I'm sure. People are either perfect or awful to him. He'll excuse utterly bad behavior if he "likes" you, but if he doesn't, he'll take good things, and turn them into negatives or vilify something done with good intent.

I just have to find a way to stand my ground on things that really matter to me(without being guilted). I actually don't FEEL guilty, but I do get sick of him trying to make me feel guilty. And I like that line about "I'm prepared to continue this conversation when we can both be civil"... .

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[formflier]

 

I'm struggling with where to "make a stand"... .I suspect most of us are.

I've had a couple really bad days... .so take this post... .in that light.

Where I got to in my thinking... .was that if I wasn't able to get over it.  And it was a repetitive issue (in my case... .wife inviting people over... .letting them stay the night)... .then I need to take a stand.

Only you can figure out if picture is worth it... .or another issue is "worth it"... .

[waverider]

I need to really try to just let things blow over, but I've found with BPDh that they rarely do. I wish he was the BPD type where that was the case! He seems to let resentment build and build, never let me live anything down,

You teach him  this by caving. He knows he wins in a game of chicken, so he persists.

Pick one thing that is important and make it super essential to you that you wont back down, regardless of what happens. Use it to set a precedent. You can't draw lines in the sand about everything. First you have to demonstrate that you can stand by one.

[shatterd]

my question here is   how do you trust your partner in theropy when there proven liars? And the theropists or support system further enables it? I have ben so cheated by this   im very pissd off   Why wood a counsler enable this i dont get it

[Ceruleanblue]

Yes, I fully realize that I have enabled him to play "chicken" or be bullying to me, just because I do tend to back down to avoid fights, or if he persists long enough. It took him four years of bullying, nagging, guilting, and leaving me(then eventually we reconciled), for me to apologize to his adult daughters. I'd held out so long because 1) I didn't owe them an apology. 2) I knew it was futile, and would do no good(it didn't). 3) I knew this was just his daughters form of bullying, and gang mentality(they are likely PD too). I caved because I feared he'd leave again, because he was threatening, after I'd basically given in and met all his "demands", and he still wasn't "happy".

Guess what? He's very, very rarely happy, and it's not MY job to make him happy! I know you are right and I have to find one thing worth fighting for. So far, that thing has been this marriage. I'm not sure yet what that issue will be, but I'm sure I'll come up with one. I guess there has been one in the past, actually. BPDh got physical with my son, and as soon as I heard about it, I told him that had better never happen again. I guess he knew how serious I was, or just didn't want to risk getting himself in trouble? I did stand my ground on that.

I really should have with the picture issue too, because now I'm feeling super resentful about it. Maybe that is the key: if you are going to feel super hurt and resentful by "giving in", then stand your ground... .

[Ceruleanblue]

Shatterd:

I can identify how you feel Shatterd, as I've had four years of BPDh's therapist enabling him, and even his psychiatrist told him he should get a different personal therapist, but BPDh won't. That to me is clearly showing how codependent he has become on his therapist. He has gotten worse in those four years, and just got put in DBT therapy. I'm hoping he doesn't start his usual lies in the marriage therapy we just started. And sometimes he'll tell a half truth, or not tell the entire story, thereby trying to make me look awful, and play the victim himself. I purposely chose a marriage therapist who deals with personality disorders, and he knows BPDh just started DBT, so I'm hoping he'll see through all that!

[shatterd]

this is a hard road for sure, but mine has ended, at least for me and her as a couple, the kid thing wow still gota deal with that mess, we just had to make a choice we coodnt do it anymore, boundries were set and she broke evry one time and time again. wonder why calling her out on her bs became a worse habbit than smokeing.

[waverider]

Whether a marriage therapist can see through BPD or not, the disorder still handicaps any progress. As marriage guidance relies on negotiating a way to a smoother future. It is the negotiating that is compromised. Any agreements that can be made, which in itself is hard, will be often renegged on due to low levels of responsibility and obligation.

For a non to be able to cope with a pwBPD they have to come to accept some harsh realities. realities which are too harsh for a pwBPD to cope with. eg personal boundaries, which can be quite confronting, you will rarely get a pwBPD to agree to them, they need to be enforced. How can these be brought up in MC without triggering a defensive reaction by pwBPD?

[formflier]

How can these be brought up in MC without triggering a defensive reaction by pwBPD?

Excellent question:

This may sound a bit manipulative... .I would suggest it is dealing in a smart manner with a frustrating illness. 

Try to have discussions about values you can both agree on.  Goals you both agree on.  Then... .if someone (anyone) violates your "progress" towards those goals... .or pushes you in a wrong direction... .then you can both agree that something needs to be done.

This will work once or twice... .but once they realize that they have been "snared" in their own trap... .very likely that they will stop participating in those conversations.

My wife brought up validation and invalidation and suggested that I was doing it to her... .(invalidating).  We agreed to "get rid" of invalidation in our r/s.  I keep thanking her for her great idea... .and once she realized that she was the one doing it more than I was... .she rarely discusses it now.   

I did get some progress in her behavior out of this... .but I suspect that the frustration just found another outlet.

FF

[Ceruleanblue]

I totally agree that it's likely that due to his "BPD" traits(he was told today he doesn't qualify as full blown BPD... .just has traits... .but this same psychiatrist who also put him in DBT,did say he has Intermittent Explosive Disorder, and you'll never convince ME that he isn't full blown, and possibly even sociopathic), that marriage therapy is not going to have a great outcome.

Waverider: I'm just having very LOW expectations. For me, if we make any progress as a couple, that's okay with me. But like you said, due to BPDh's not taking responsibility, and his constant going back on agreements, it's not likely we'll make huge improvements in marriage therapy. Negotiations with my husband are nearly impossible because they make him feel "controlled". That is how even my having normal needs feels to him. He wants everything his way, in fact it's almost like he has to have things his way, or he dysregulates.

Formflier: I think I could try what you suggested, as long as it's BPDh's idea. Like if he cites something, I could say "yeah, you have a point, we should both work on that"... .that might not set him off(but it might also), but like your wife, I'm pretty sure I'd have the same outcome. He'd realize it's more him doing it, or realize I wasn't doing it as much as he thought, and he'd find something else to focus on. Goodness knows though, it seems like he thinks I'm doing things I'm not actually doing(classic projecting, because it's usually things HE'S doing to ME), so he might not actually have that realization... .

[ForeverDad]

So are you pondering whether you are "Staying"  - or "Staying For Now"?

I see the former being applicable when the other is making substantive progress, enough that there is a realistic expectation that the marriage could realistically become manageable and much less unhealthy if not better.

I see the latter as being applicable at the beginning, where the member gives some time to see if focused therapy, improved communication and coping skills make a real improvement or not.

I guess what I'm saying is that at some point you have to make the Decision... .Is my spouse making sufficient improvement to continue in Staying?  Or is therapy or counseling just treading water and the issues are still there or just being shifted around (even onto me) or masked (as in seeming normalcy)?

If you do decide Staying isn't working then you can put your toes in the water over at the Family Law board.  But be forewarned, if the marriage is likely to implode or merely break apart on the rocks, it is your responsibility to be prepared for the new issues that will arise in domestic court.  It is very different from here, the priorities and goals are almost opposites, here you are trying to make the relationship work, there you will be unwinding the relationship and trying to come out the other side as best you can.  Have you been documenting the poor behaviors, vitally necessary if there are custody and parenting concerns?  Have you been making backup copies of all important documents, deeds, titles, passports, credit and bank account records?  Have you had confidential consultations with local family law attorneys to figure out where you stand and how things are handled, what matters and what doesn't matter, in your local area?

[formflier]

 

Great questions from ForeverDad.

Ceruleanblue,

I don't want to give off the incorrect impression of my r/s... .we are much better than we were last year at this time... .much better.

I'm confident that if YOU commit to making more emotionally healthy choices for the r/s... .and for yourself... .that you will drag your husband and your r/s to a better place. 

Note:  He may go kicking and screaming... .(extinction burst)... .

This is not fair... .but I assure you... .it is

Let that sit with you for a bit... .

Please don't put high expectations on MC... .or any "one" thing. 

I found the best way to move forward in my r/s was to be ready... .and when the opportunity arrived to move one area forward... .I would put a lot of energy into that.

Trying to "create" something to move forward on... .hasn't worked too well.

So... .I think there is great value in going to MC... .for the sake of going... .that way when an opportunity arises... .you are ready to go... .vice having to establish relationships with a T.

Thoughts?

FF

[Compassion14]

Hi. Forgive me for not reading your thread all the way through and please forgive me if I appear harsh. I do not mean to be. I have been stopped in my tracks at the revelation that your BPD partner appears to have driven a wedge between your son and you... .that your bond with YOUR SON is being compromised because of your BPD. Please, please, please stop and think about that.

My BPD began to verbally attack my beautiful young daughter to me, so jealous of the attention she got. It was the most heart-breaking and utterly unacceptable thing I've ever been subjected to... .and one of the main motivations I had to end it.

I decided I never wanted to look back and realise I'd lost the close, loving bond I had with my own blood, for a mentally ill, emotionally dangerous man.

Please put yourself and your children first. You deserve it.

I know there's always so much more to it, lots to try to understand etc etc. But looking at the core facts... .I just wanted to say the above.

Good luck

C14 x

[Ceruleanblue]

ForeverDad: Well, for now, I'm fully committed to making this work. In my estimation, way more than BPDh. My parents have been married, happily for 60 years, and I was raised in a very functional home. BPDh has already left me once, after three years of threats. He left, and I think it shocked him that I filed. I wasn't supposed to do that! HE was supposed to do that! I never wanted the divorce, but I was tired of doing all the trying, only to have him leave? My life calmed down, but of course I was sad. I believe in making things worse, and I already knew he had some sort of psyche diagnosis, he just wasn't sharing.

We eventually worked out some issues, but in the time we were separated, he cheated on me(basically a few weeks after he walked out), and he'd been telling me for some time he wanted to sleep with others. I view it as cheating, he does not, but whatever. I really don't think he'll be unfaithful now, that is the last of my worries actually. What upsets me is that I met all his "demands", and he's still unhappy. I can't make him happy, and I know that, only HE can make himself happy, and work his own issues, and me work mine(working on not being codependent or let this set off my anxiety).

For now, I'm fully committed, but I know if this therapy doesn't help at all, or if he escalated again to the point of being physical, I may have to leave. I have plans for if I have to do that. We don't have children together at least, so that is something to be thankful for.

Formflier: That is exactly what I am trying to do: work on ME, and the choices I make for our relationship, and for me. I'm trying to use as many of the tools as I can, so that we can have a better relationship, and so that I can have some peace. If that means going to church alone, or walking away while he dysregulates... .so be it. I realized long ago, that this relationship is never going to be "fair", so when he said the other day that he just wanted something to be "fair"... .it was hard not to laugh. His idea of "fair" is him getting his own way, and me admitting his view of reality is right(and circumstances never play into anything for him... .total black/white thinking). I let go of almost all my expectations from him, and try not to take things he says personally. I'm learning, it's just taking some time. I never thought I was a slow learner, quite the opposite, but this is really, really hard.

I'm getting there though. And maybe his reactions are extinction bursts? I hadn't considered that. I don't think he knows how to react when I'm not reacting in the ways I used to... .

[Ceruleanblue]

Compassion14: I'm totally not offended, and you are pretty much right. My son, who is almost 17, can be rude and mouthy to ME, but he never disrespected BPDh, and my son was very pro our marriage(both my kids were). My BPDh actually tells me to "suck it up, and kiss my kids a**" in regards to his adult kids(who've done their best to drive me away and won't let me around the grandkids for no reason other than they themselves are likely PD too), but my son was treated so harshly, and really with no reason. On the other hand, by BPDh has a "weird" attachment to my 19 year old daughter, who behind his back says he's an abusive crazyman, but she knows not to disrespect him.

I let my son choose if he wanted to move with us, or stay with my parents, who we are all really close to emotionally(I'm very close to my parents), and he chose to finish out school and not move with us. I'm devastated, and I know it's two and a half years I'll never get back. I'm hurt and angry at BPDh at this, because I NEVER made him choose between his three adult girls or me, no matter what they did, and they did and said some mean/crazy thing to me, to my face. Yet he put ME in a position to choose, and he gets mad when I point that out to him, and he is in fact angry at my depression in dealing with all this.

If my son were younger, I'd have had to make a different choice, of course. I'd been put in that place before, and let that relationship go because no way was I giving my kids up(guy I was dating asked me to give custody to my ex). I still see my son of course, but he won't come visit here(I don't blame him), and I miss living with him so much. I've never been into blame, but I do have trouble not feeling BPDh is pretty toxic to have made me make a choice in which there was no good decision, and for how he can't seem to even stand to be around my son now after spending four years with him?

I know I someday will regret this, in fact I'm regretting it now, but my son seems happy at my parents, and I've continually asked him if he wants me to move back, and he says no. And I no longer trust my BPDh around my son. For some reason, he's decided to hate him, and I'm hoping his DBT therapy deals with that, because there is no real reason for it.

I'm actually not seeing much less of my son, because he's busy at this age, but it still just feels like crap.

[formflier]

What upsets me is that I met all his "demands", and he's still unhappy. I can't make him happy, and I know that, only HE can make himself happy, and work his own issues, and me work mine(working on not being codependent or let this set off my anxiety).

Very insightful... .I hope you can focus on this... .  I hope this can help you when your husband makes demands in the future.

So... .I want to clarify... .make sure I understand.  Your son had a choice... .to stay or come with you... .and he choose to stay. 

Was coming with a real choice?  If he had said yes... .are there practical issues that would have prevented it... .(basically... .anything other than a grumpy husband)

FF

[Ceruleanblue]

Formflier:

My son had already decided weeks earlier that he wanted to stay in our home town and finish off school, rather than switching schools, which I totally understand. I'm saddened by this of course. My BPDh and my original deal we struck when we got married was that we'd stay in my hometown, and he'd commute(40 minutes to work), until both my kids graduated. Well, when we were talking about reconciliation, moving was one of the many things BPDh wanted, along with several others that are too embarrassing and too strange to even put on here.

As soon as BPDh moved back in with me, his grown daughters cut him off again(his son we have a good relationship with as long as BPDh throws huge money his way, and does what he wants). He dsyregulated, and pretty much stayed that way. My son and I became his targets. One day BPDh went off on me, and my son made one comment, not even directed at BPDh, and BPDh insisted my son move out, one week prior to us moving. He actually made BOTH my kids move out, but later said my 19 year old daughter who he dotes on could move back, but not my son. He basically robbed me of my last week living with my son, and I don't know if I'll ever be able to forgive that. It was beyond cruel, it was deliberate, and he saw how much it hurt both ME, and my son, and he had days to relent, but he wouldn't give us that last week. THIS cruel streak is really what makes me question if he could be APD.

That same day, he basically forced me to apologize to his adult daughters, two of whom wouldn't answer their phones, so I left lengthy apologies(not they I owed them one, or did anything, which is why it took me four years to apologize), and the one that did answer was awful to me, refused to accept an apology, said she'd been put in a toxic situation(meaning my marrying her divorced Dad... .how crazy is that?), and she'd acted PERFECT, and that her Dad is toxic, I'm toxic, and she hung up on me. Now, BPDh has been awful to me and my son, but I KNOW in the four years we've been together he's kissed all his girls' butts, and has never stuck up for me, no matter what they said or did, and he's avoided all confrontation with them... .so her saying this makes zero sense. I'm sure she witnessed him being toxic when he was married to her mother, but that was years ago, and when he/I met he had a good relationship with all his kids. Now, they blame him for everything.

Basically, after BPDh threw my son out, his full on anger I could always tell was there, but leashed, came out, and I no longer even want my son around him. It's as if he's too afraid to confront his own kids for their outrageous behaviors, so he tiptoes, then takes it out on us. It's basically all BPDh wants to talk about in all his therapy: his kids, and how to get them back. He refuses to see that they are acting very immature and angry.

So practically speaking, I do not want my BPDh around my son anymore, unless it's when lots of people are around. And my son, who always forgave anything BPDh did, now doesn't want to be around BPDh, and I totally understand that. I was always amazed at how my son supported the marriage, and was able to sidestep most of what BPDh threw at him. I'm proud of the kid I raised, but I'm sure not proud of the behaviors of the man I married. I've done way too much, and tried way too hard with his kids, for him to have done this to my kid.

My son won't even come visit at our new place, so it's quite a bit of back and forth for me to go visit him. Of course, now BPDh doesn't have to commute, but I do. More of the narcissism. He made things more comfortable for HIM, and my son and I are the ones paying the price.

This is still a pretty raw wound for me. I've been able to keep reminding myself that BPDh struggles with BPD, and that is why he does things, says things, and hurts people... .but in this case, I'm thinking as a parent himself, he knew exactly what he was doing... .and he did it to "get even" with me, because he feels he's lost his kids due to me(although it was his choice to stay married and move back in). I never feel my husband does things that are not deliberate, or very passive aggressively planned out. He might be impulsive at times, but this was clearly plotted, because if he just lost his cool, he would have relented.

I guess the natural consequences of BPDh's actions is that he spends less time with me, because I now have to split time to be with my son. I sort of think BPDh likes that though, so he can go see his kids, and pretend I don't exist.

As I write all this, I sort of wonder why I ever wanted him back... .he'd have never tried so hard, or given up a moments time with his kids for me. Ever. He's never put me or our marriage first. It's always been all about him... .

Tomorrow, I'm going to see my son.  

[OffRoad]

I just popped in and thought I could give you some suggestions that might help. You will know best if they will work with your H.

Here are things I've been hearing for years:

1. "You contributed"... .(I wasn't perfect, but I really didn't. Maybe I could have handled their anger a tad better, but even now, I don't see how. The one time his daughter went off, I left MY home to get away from her). What's a good non-inciting response to this, or is just zero response better?

Ask " What other way would have worked better, do you think?" if he says something valid "I'll have to think about that." and if he says something totally off the wall "I'll have to think about that." It's a great line where you can actually think about something or not.

2. "Such and such you did was mean" (again, he's imagining this, but to him, it's true, yet he totally overlooks things he witnessed them do and say to me). I can't convince him that I never intentionally did anything "mean", ever. I'm done trying. I'm one of those people who thinks first, then talks, and tries to never offend anyone, so this is baffling to me that he seems to want to think this of me. THIS one really gets me, and he knows it's the ONE thing most likely to get a response from me. What do I say, or not say to this?

Ask him what he means by "mean". "I'm not understanding what you are saying. Could you please tell me how what I said was "mean"? A response to any answer is "Ah, I see your interpretation now. That wasn't how I meant it, but I can see how it could be taken that way."

3. "I don't care about your feelings or opinions"... .he stopped saying this for a while, but he screamed it at me yesterday. This one makes me worry he could be a socio... .not just BPD. I don't care what the label is, I just want to know how to respond to his anger/dysregulation. What's a good response to this one?

This one I stand strong on. "I am entitled to my opinions. You can't tell me what I feel." It doesn't matter if he doesn't care about them. He can not care all he wants. YOU are still entitled to them, because your opinions and feelings belong to you. PERIOD. Say it once, then say you will not be yelled at or you will leave the room. Then leave the room if he continues to yell. (Boundary)

4. "You can't do this, you can't do that... .". Yesterday, it was I had to put the last and only picture of my son away for the sake of "fairness". None of this has been fair on me. His idea of fairness is HIM always getting his way, which he's very, very good at. I moved away from my 16 year old son, and I'm struggling with that, and 16 year old son has been great through all this. Now, BPDh is so non compassionate and hateful, I can't even have a picture out? I put it away, but I'm so hurt, and I think constantly giving in to BPDh makes him worse? How should I have responded, or how do I respond to future demands?

Arghhh! I hate this one. I went down the circular argument trail many times before I discovered BPD and this site. This is going to depend on you. It is your house and you have the right to do what you want too. But you do have to temper it with the possible consequences of your actions. Do you have a closet of your own? Hang your son's picture in there, so you can look at it when you want to, but he doesn't have to. I'm not very good at this one. I will endure any argument so that I can say "You don't get to tell me what I can and cannot do. I am a free entity, with the right to do as I please." I don't care what the repercussions are.

[formflier]

 

Ceruleanblue,

Thanks for fully explaining the situation with your kids... .and I think that I have a good idea of what is going on with him and his kids. 

Tough situation for him to be in and a tough situation for you to be in.

I'm going to pass on some advice that many senior members passed on to me... .and I have been grateful for... .since then.

Consistency matters.  Holding firm to a decision or boundary matters.  I'll lay out my first boundary and my first extinction burst survival... .hopefully you can see where you could apply those principles in your r/s. 

I'm very interested in you fully understanding this concept before trying to apply it... .because misapplying it... .is worse than trying nothing at all.


Why slot machines work


So... .I figured out... .by a lot of introspection... .that my wife rummaging around my phone and email was the "source" of a lot of conflict among us.  She would see an email... .and "think" it said or meant something different than it did.  I'm a very connected person.  Executive type... .lots of emails... .lots of contacts. 

Anyway... .I put a lock on my phone... .and changed my password.  I didn't tell me wife I did this... .I just did it.  Week or two later she started asking.  Luckily... .I had actually instituted some new security procedures at work... .so I could reference that some without completely lying... .but I said no to her request for the password. 

Didn't go well... .I walked out on several conversations.

Extinction burst set in:  She upped the ante... .  and kept upping it.  She finally laid down the law that I wouldn't get any more sex until I gave up the password. 

Because of this site... .I had it firm in my mind that I wouldn't "fight" over this.  This culminated in one night she came on to me sexually... .and at the moment I was about to enter her... .she blocked me and whispered in my ear that I could "get in there"... .if I would give the password to her. 

I didn't "fight" or "get mad"... .I rolled over and started doing something else.  Note:  This was very very very hard.  I was not OK on the inside... .

Like a light switch flipped... .she started acting like the sex/password combo was no big deal... .we had a wonderful intimate experience (about 15 minutes after she blocked me) and she acts like she never tried to control me.

I never brought this up to her... .complained about it... .anything... .I just went about my boundary.  It's my password... .she has no "right" to it.  She now has her own password... .I have never... .and will never... .ask for it.

This experience gave me hope... .helped me understand that I do still have power.

This site and my experiences here helped me understand that I needed to treat myself right as well.  I deserved to have my own private thoughts... .to communicate privately with those that I decided I want to communicate with. 

I lived out my values... .my r/s is much better for it.

Now... .I can't do this on "every little thing"... .and many things I have totally capitulated on... .but I used to want to fight about lots of little stuff.  Let it go... .


How do you think this story applies to your situation?

FF

[Ceruleanblue]

Offroad and Formflier: I think I can definitely be more consistent, and I'm working on that. I can also use that phrase about "what could I have done differently?". I actually don't think he'll expect that, and I'm pretty sure he'll have to come up with an answer fast. I know he takes it out on me, but I think deep down, he knows their behaviors are awful, and he doesn't know what to do either, so blaming me is easier.

My husband gets tons of emails, and texts too, so I can relate to that Formflier. What's funny is our situation that he always wants to know who it texting me, but he gets upset if I ask him that. He switched jobs, and I'd ask, just because I was trying to learn the names of his coworkers, and the people he manages. He's very secretive, but I'm an open book, but he questions me like I'm not, yet he gets mad if I ask, out of simple curiosity. I totally understand your need to have private thoughts, and we all have private thoughts, but how do you deal with when someone thinks almost ALL questions are intrusive? BPDh really doesn't like me to question him much at all, and it's almost like he feels like ALL his thoughts should be private. He lies, and he's super secretive, so it's hard to trust him. It's hard to get to know him, or feel connected to him, because talking isn't encouraged, and his conversation is very superficial, and sparse.

I'm sure I'll come across a boundary or decision I have to stand firm on, and I'm going to keep rereading your advice, just so I can stand strong. I think I fall into the trap of trying to explain my boundary or decisions, and I need to just make a simple statement, and let him deal with it. No more being lured into explaining over and over, or letting him to convince me why he is "right", and I should change my mind! Like you, that might involve walking away(I would probably feel rude doing that to him though), so I'll probably just repeat  my boundary simply, and change topics. As a last resort, I'll walk away. I just try to treat him kindly, and I'd hate if he walked away from me if I'm talking civilly to him. Now, if he's yelling and being angry, you can bet I won't feel bad about walking away.

[formflier]

 

I would suggest "Help me understand something different I could have done... ."

or

"help me understand what you would have preferred I do in this situation"

I try to stay away from "why"... ."what" is not as bad... .but is still easy to deliver it with a bad tone.

The tone and non verbals are just as important as the words... .I like the above suggestions because for me... .they help with my tone.

FF

[Ceruleanblue]

I'll try that. I'm just hoping it's for future occasions, and he can stop bringing up the past. He's been doing a lot better about that, but I know as soon as he has a major dysregulation, it's likely to come out. Old patterns die hard, and that and divorce threats have always been his way to "win", in his eyes. The divorce threats are almost gone, so I'm hopeful he'll get a handle on this "blame" game about the past too. Our MC really stressed this week that blame is not good, and is just a path that shouldn't be gone down. I'm sure he's getting tons of good tools in DBT too.

[formflier]

I'll try that. I'm just hoping it's for future occasions, and he can stop bringing up the past. 

It will come back... .hopefully just not as much.

Be prepared.

I suggest a two pronged approach.

If it looks like he is going "to the past"... ."Help me understand the feelings you have right now... ."  don't suggest a feeling.

If he talks about his feelings... .validate them.  And... .notice you are away from the past.

If he wants to give his opinion on the past... .an opinion and feelings are different. 

I am lonely is a feeling.  validate validate validate... .

You lied to me last year is an opinion.  don't respond... .ask for a feeling... .or disengage.

So... .the manner of disengagement also matters.  "We've already discussed that... .I'll be back in 5 minutes to talk about something else.  Leave... .get a glass of water... .bring him one when you come back.  Talk about something you saw in the newspaper... .

You get the idea... .tweak the ideas to be real to you... .

Glad you are seeing progress... .you have a part to play as well... .keep the momentum going.

FF

[adventurer]

"Help me understand the feelings you have right now... ." 

Love this, what a great way to get out of he said/she said blaming and JADE impulses.

[Ceruleanblue]

I agree that being prepared is a good plan. I don't mind validating his feelings(would be nice to get a few of mine understood though!), and I do think that disengaging when needed might work. From past experience, I don't think my BPDh would like the phrase "we've already talked about that, I'll be back... ." I do have to be really careful about exactly how I phrase things. I think I might get farther if I said "that's a hot topic for US, for the sake of harmony, let's not discuss it again". Same meaning, but I think he's hear that differently. Maybe.

Think that might work? I tend to get better results when I remind him we are working on the now, and on our marriage. I actually think his DBT takes our marriage into account, so this seems to be working better since he started DBT... .

[formflier]

From past experience, I don't think my BPDh would like the phrase "we've already talked about that, I'll be back... ." I do have to be really careful about exactly how I phrase things. I think I might get farther if I said "that's a hot topic for US, for the sake of harmony, let's not discuss it again". Same meaning, but I think he's hear that differently. Maybe.

I see the thought... .consider this.

Boundaries are harsh... .nothing validating about them.  Try to "soft sell" a boundary... .will lessen the effectiveness of the boundary.

Now... .I'm not saying call them names to set a boundary.  But you need clarity... .rather than "niceness".

Again... .validation is a totally different thought.  Try to validate so you don't have to do a boundary... .but... .whenever you decide its boundary time (this needs to be consistent)... .drop any thoughts of validation.

Be clear... .set boundary. 

The time reference is to possibly help with abandonment fears... .

But... .if you have to decide between abandonment fears... .or a boundary.  Choose the boundary!

Thoughts?

FF

[waverider]

Unfortunately boundaries do need to appear like unforgiving fortress walls not a warm guiding hand. They have to look unbending and a place that is pointless throwing your guile and energy at.

Warm and fuzzies invite negotiations.

This is why you pick your boundaries carefully as they need to stand out.

[EaglesJuju]

This thread has reached its post limit, and is now closed. This is a worthwhile topic, and you are free to start a new thread to continue the conversation. Thanks for your understanding... .