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Author Topic: question of brain chemistry of the BPD  (Read 404 times)
Circle T

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« on: April 13, 2015, 03:12:58 PM »

I have made inquiries and done some research regarding the brain chemistry of the person with BPD. I have some person observations and need some guidance, help with this. Please forgive the somewhat graphic nature of my post. Having been intimate with my fiancée many times in the last 17 months always noticed that after she climaxes/reaches orgasm her personality changes a little while later (~30-45 minutes later). As long as she does not have an orgasm, things are good with us. Just recently this happened again. She had orgasm, I took a shower and left to some work a her office and she stayed home to relax and rest. The work I was doing took longer than I anticipated (computer) and she sent me a text asking me if I was going through her files on her computer. Sent her back a text and told her no, only looked at two to use as printing tests. Ran another errand for her and when I got home was questioned about what took me so long. She basically accused me of looking through all her files on her computer looking for something about her or on her! I told her I did not, that everything I needed to know I already knew, that is why I decided to ask her to marry me! SHe later apologized several times. When she goes off she seems to realize that she has done something wrong or inappropriate and apologizes, usually... .not always. Is there a chemical imbalance related to BPD? If so which ones are missing or in over abundance? She has polycystic ovarian syndrome/disease and only has on ovary... .is she not producing enough estrogen. After she runs, a couple of miles or more she gets feisty, angry... .too much testosterone?

Appreciate any direction, resources, guidance or comments,

Thank you,

Circle T
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waverider
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« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2015, 04:25:47 AM »

Don't know about chemistry. but the psychology of gratification/completion being met may mean that mood is switched off and so swings the other way.

Mood disorders are more chemistry driven. Personality disorders nor so much. This is why mood disorders such as bi polar are more easily treated by medications.
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Circle T

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« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2015, 10:33:52 AM »

Thank you Waverider.

Medication not being taken could be playing big role in mood swings, even temporary ones... .right. I thought raising 3 kids on my own was difficult. Adding soBPD has been a challenge at times and been rewarding at times. I love her and will continue to try to get her to reach a point where she realizes she needs help, get her help and be there for her every step of the way.

Thank you again Waverier,

Circle T
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Tim300
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« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2015, 10:48:31 AM »

From my experiences with my BPDex-fiancee and everything I've read about BPD I would agree with the assertion that there's an issue of "brain chemistry".  My ex seemed to perhaps suffer from dissociative identity disorder.  I think this was triggered mostly by stress and intimacy; and maybe partly by PMS (she worried that she suffered from PMDD and was open about this as an explanation for her bizarre behavior).  But sometimes her instability seemed to maybe just come out of nowhere.  She didn't seem to understand it and neither could I.  It's interesting to try to make connections about what triggers what, but at some point you might conclude that her brain is just "off" and there's not much reason for her behavior and you'd drive yourself crazy trying to make greater sense of it. 
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« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2015, 11:37:44 AM »

I wonder about the role of brain or blood chemistry on BPD.  I do notice her symptoms worse at "that time of the month".   I also notice her mood changes in response to withdrawal from medications, especially Xanax and/or any kind of pain killer.  And she also used to be an illicit drug abuser, and she said the cycles of the drugs made her much, much worse. 

That said, obviously blood/brain chemistry do affect her moods.  But then again, all of the above affect anyone's moods, so I don't see these reactions as specific to BPD.

I will say based on my observations, that something about her brain does not function in the same way as most people.  I think much of her behavior is based upon intense, overwhelming feelings, and she winds up trying to satisfy those feelings against her better judgment.  I've never quite met anyone like this before - she will know she has intense feelings, have the urge to respond in such a way, know her response will make the problem worse, yet cannot stop herself from responding, and then immediately feel shame over her response.  I think that is probably more than just personality or behavior, it is rooted in brain chemistry. 

I think that brain chemistry is partly genetic, but I also believe that as we grow our brains learn to manage their own chemistry in response to stimuli.  For example, when I was a child, I may have felt the world was ending because I let go of my balloon and it flew away. As an adult?  I may feel a little sad when I lose something that has little value, but I move on quickly.  My wife can still fly off the handle when she loses something of insignificance.  So something between childhood and adulthood happened to my brain that did not happen with hers.  And my feeling is that her brain never learned to regulate it's chemistry or it's responses to changes in chemistry.  Part of that could be genetic, part could be the environment in which she was raised, and in the case of my wife, I think a large part of it may be brain damage as a result of using illicit drugs. 
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waver

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« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2015, 11:55:58 AM »

May be interesting.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=272523.msg12584977
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« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2015, 01:59:24 PM »

Hi Circle T,

the current understanding is there is a biological and a psychological/learned component to BPD. For both there is not a single factor identified and it is believed that there are multiple factors at work. The fact that therapy has been very effective with BPD (it is one of the most heal-able conditions) in my eyes shows that there is a big behavioral component to it.

Excerpt
After she runs, a couple of miles or more she gets feisty, angry... .too much testosterone?

Generally she should be feeling somewhat better after running as it releases dopamine and people in tend to feel better. Same goes for sex. From what you describe her mood is dropping fast after both. My naive thinking is this may be dropping of a spike indicating general low levels of dopamine but naive thinking won't help much - this needs professionals.

Hormones are a complex system by themselves and it is very difficult to say what drives what. It is worth getting expert advice on this particularly if she is taking any hormones. Birth control pills or even low level IUDs can have a profound impact. It is a complex topic, everyone reacts differently, the exact type of hormone in birth control can make a huge difference and not all doctors have a deep understanding and appreciate the impact on brain chemistry. Progesterone and testosterone have an impact on dopamine which is critical for brain functioning. Dopamine is not so easily measured so monitoring testosterone and prolactin levels are worth it. And dopamine is only one key player in the brain... .A good gyn and/or psychiatrist might be able to make a sense out of her behavior and levels.

Supporting her in her quest to feel better probably will take a while. It might be that there will a a doctor who can help her and she listens. It might get worse or better over time as hormone levels drop off when she gets older. She may find other and more effective ways to help herself than running. Patience will be needed  . Maintaining your own balance and sanity is key to this long distance run!

If she is moody - for whatever - reasons after running - read up on boundaries and give her space. If you do it in a well structured and consistent way it should not trigger abandonment too much.

Keep in mind that hormone levels in all of us fluctuate. We all have moods. But not all of us engage in destructive relationship behavior. You can't change her behavior but you can change yours and that can make a big difference. Eventually it might even enable her to adapt a few healthier patterns. In the short run your adoption of validation and boundaries can significantly lower the stress in your relationship. And stress is also known to affect hormones a lot.
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Circle T

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« Reply #7 on: April 14, 2015, 02:04:19 PM »

Thank you for all the input, great ideas.

I believe because of her polycystic ovarian syndrome, her estrogen production is off. I also believe that oxytocin plays a major role in her trigger. If we are intimate, but she does not have an orgasm she is fine, there is no anger no other issues. It is only when she has an orgasm or she runs, hard physical exercise that it causes a trigger. Wonder if oxytocin is keeping her emotions in check, but after an orgasm the oxytocin level is depleted by extreme exertion (like running) and replaced with testosterone?

I thought that this situation was triggered by some child hood abuse or some sort of guilt complex. Going to continue to research the brain chemistry scenario.

Thank you,

Circle T
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enlighten me
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« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2015, 02:20:15 PM »

I have also looked into this. My interest was started when people mentioned dilated pupils. One of the causes of this is oxytocin. This is releasef during child birth, breast feeding and orgasm.

other things I noticed was how both my uBPD exs had very similar behaviours. They took hot baths, danced, played music, didnt smoke and one couldnt tolerate caffeine and insisted on organic food. Doesnt sound odd but it came across as more of a coping mechanism. It also turns out that these are also methods for reducing cortisol.

A recent study showed that extra oxytocin has a different affect on pwBPD than others. Rather than having a calmiing/ bonding effect it makes them more tense and suspicious.

Another study showed that the hyperthalamus in pwBPD is smaller so produces less oxytocin.

So to summarise. A pwBPD doesnt have the chemical ability to form bonds due to their lower oxytocin levels. They run on elevated levels of cortisol. When they do raise their oxytocin they dont cope well. This is why they push you away when you get close. This is why they sabotage their relationships.

The summary is just my opinion.
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Circle T

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« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2015, 02:31:50 PM »

Thank you enlighten me.

That is interesting, especially the cortisol aspect, which would explain the anger. May be the cortisol instead of testosterone or combination of both. Where your theory differ is that prior to orgasm or in absence of it, she is very, very loving, tender... .truly heaven on earth. I have not looked at her pupils as the light level is too low. Will research this aspect of this though.

Thank you

Circle T
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« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2015, 03:24:30 PM »

Hi circle

what you have to remember is no two pwBPD are physically the same. Some may have slightly smaller hyperthalumus and some may have very small ones. This difference is why some pwBPD cannot handle intimacy and others seem to handle it better. Even a hug can stimulate oxytocin release.

oxyticin is released after a fright to reduce cortisol levels. This is why in my opinion pwBPD seem to display signs of elevated cortisol.

There is a lot more I could add but thats the shortened version of my theory.
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« Reply #11 on: April 14, 2015, 03:29:57 PM »

I've also contemplated this over the years.

I've wondered if it could be production of Adrenaline (Fight or Flight) during sex or flirting instead of Oxytocin and dopamine (Euphoric pleasure).  

Also: strange reactions happen in the body when you "come down" from an Adrenaline rush.

Does Adrenaline counteract Dopamine and Oxytocin?

I have heard about Cortisol but thought it's effect is suppressing desire.

Any thoughts?
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