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Author Topic: Do we tell the kids what is in the court order?  (Read 419 times)
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« on: April 14, 2015, 01:05:11 PM »

Example:

Kids are 10 and 12. Their mom lives in a different state and is telling the kids it's all our fault that she never sees them. This is only being furthered by the fact that she knows she likely isn't getting any summer parenting time in her state due to failure to get counseling. Obviously, we can't tell the kids their mom isn't getting counseling like she's supposed to. But can we tell them the court order says she is allowed certain weekends here in our state and just hasn't been using them? I ask because Mother's Day is coming up. Of course their mom intends to cry to them over the phone about how they aren't with her. But the order says she is absolutely allowed to come here and have them Mother's Day weekend and we couldn't stop her from doing so even if we wanted to.

Upshot of saying something: Not being the bad guys her mom paints us to be in her ongoing alienation attempts.

Drawback: The kids potentially having to deal with the fact that for all of her crying, their mom just doesn't want to put in the effort.
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Rubies
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« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2015, 01:30:02 PM »

Your kids are old enough to read it for themselves.  Make it available so they can negotiate their relationship with their mother on their own terms.  Be available to help them through their disgust with the proof of what the already know.
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« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2015, 01:44:51 PM »

Be careful, our L advised us that it is not ok to expose D to "adult legal matters."  That it could be held against us in court, and would be held against mom as well.

However, we were constantly threatened for court over frivolous matters, therefore, always anticipating the next appearance. Also, uBPDmom constantly talked about legal matters to D9-15, and there was never much of a repercussion for her over it.

After much Parental alienation, we ended up getting it explicitly written in PP that neither parent was allowed to make child aware of any legal proceedings by either direct or indirect means or by overhearing or reading it.  Not that this stopped mom.

Also, not that I'm implying your intent is bad at all, just sharing that other side of things in case it helps something.
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Rubies
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« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2015, 03:23:37 PM »

DD made it quite clear to several 3rd party professionals in her life she didn't know who was lying about what, she was being jerked, she was scared and she wanted the truth.   She wrote it out on the erase board in the office of the assistant superintendent of the school district.   This was early in the divorce/custody proceedings, I had to file to get her returned from out of state. 

Every kid deserves the truth to their satisfaction.  When they have adults who lie and twist things so badly they don't know who they can trust to speak without agenda.  Can we speak without agenda?  Let them read the black and white with the judge's signature for themselves.  Let the kids weigh their parents' words against the document signed by the judge.  At 12 years old with 3rd party guidance, they can handle it.

I told DD when the time was right she could pick a trusted 3rd party person to go over the papers with her if she still wanted to, but to trust me for now when I say everything will be okay.   Mr. W thoroughly approved and DD calmed down.  Her therapist thought it would be a good idea too.  It was quite a few months later I came home, DD had the file pulled from my room, reading it while snuggling her dog.

DD told a friend that Mom doesn't lie about stuff or do scary weird things, that's what makes me the good parent.

Yes, the law states we aren't supposed to talk about stuff with the kids.  We do anyway when we say, "Get in the car, you're going for your visitation because the judge said so."  The law wasn't written with the BPD parent in mind but for normal folks.   Let the kids read exactly what the judge signed without parental emotions.  Go with the spirit of the law and not the letter of the law.
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rarsweet
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« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2015, 06:43:12 PM »

Perhaps just the parenting plan, the schedule, that's it.
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« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2015, 07:47:24 AM »

DH decided to address the Mother's Day issue in the kid's counseling sessions. He simply told each of them that their mom was supposed to have her time with them here over Mother's Day weekend. So if she was sad or they are sad when she doesn't come, that it is up to her if she comes or not.

I agree that with her alienation tactics we do need to tell them some things, but the magistrate's full finding would definitely damage them. Forcing them to view the woman who raised them from birth through an unemotional adult lens is too much. When they are a little older and less black-and-white thinking, maybe. Right now they need to be able to love her and we can't take that away from them. However, I guess there is no reason we can't sit them down and explain the visitation parameters so that they are getting the truth and know what to expect.

As much as I have researched, the psychology of the kid's relationship with their BPD mom is so weird to watch. They will cry bitterly about being "kept from" their mother when she says that's what's happening. But they don't expect her to go out of her way to come and see them. So now if she calls them crying on Mother's Day, they won't cry from their own grief (because they'll know the truth that she could have come) but they will sooth her and would never dream of daring to ask her to fix it by coming down.

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« Reply #6 on: April 15, 2015, 01:26:54 PM »

DH decided to address the Mother's Day issue in the kid's counseling sessions. He simply told each of them that their mom was supposed to have her time with them here over Mother's Day weekend. So if she was sad or they are sad when she doesn't come, that it is up to her if she comes or not.

So now if she calls them crying on Mother's Day, they won't cry from their own grief (because they'll know the truth that she could have come) but they will sooth her and would never dream of daring to ask her to fix it by coming down.

Good solution.  The kids are clearly informed and they will perhaps be able to better withstand mother's emotional blaming.  Validation, age-appropriate information and common sense reasoning goes a long way to helping them form their own conclusions and not be blown about by ex's winds of disinformation, blaming, emotional claims, etc.  Over time they will become better at it, discerning that it is ex's issues that are the real problems and they will feel guilted less too.

I believe that if you go into too much detail, then some of those details could be relayed to the ex in the kids' phone calls and then ex would feel triggered to use it as ammunition to blame it on DH, "Your father took me to court and he did this to me/you and blah, blah, blame, blame... . "

KISS (keep it safely simple)
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bravhart1
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« Reply #7 on: April 15, 2015, 04:17:34 PM »

You raise a good question. At what age is it ok or preferred to tell the kids their mom is not well?
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« Reply #8 on: April 15, 2015, 08:53:40 PM »

You raise a good question. At what age is it ok or preferred to tell the kids their mom is not well?

That is a heavy question. It seems very dependent on the circumstances and on the children as individuals. The age probably matters less. I keep trying to put myself in their shoes to figure out how that information would be processed. But from where I'm standing and from my own life experiences, it simply isn't possible.

I know SD12 desperately wants to be kept in the dark. She is the all-good child so if her mom is unwell in her thinking then does that make all of her mom's praise untrue? Both kids are at an age where it is very important to feel like they are "normal". I think they'd both take it really hard because they still often see themselves as an extension of their mom.
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« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2015, 07:50:05 AM »

Upshot of saying something: Not being the bad guys her mom paints us to be in her ongoing alienation attempts.

I think it's OK for you to not let your x POISON their minds with LIES about you. Don't say anything negative about her but kindly inform them of the TRUTH about you. Kids are observant. They will know the truth by what your X does and not what she says.  Same with how they evaluate you... . ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS! They will know that she is unstable as they mature.

Drawback: The kids potentially having to deal with the fact that for all of her crying, their mom just doesn't want to put in the effort.

Let HER own her actions not you. She is accountable for her relationship with her kids both good and bad. You need to let go of worrying about her ways. That is being co-dependant and is not healthy for you. Besides worrying about her doesn't change her, it just keeps you enmeshed in her toxic world. Focus on what you can control and positively affect... . YOU! Be the best parent you can be and your kids WILL be blessed.

Good Luck to you!

MWC... . Being cool (click to insert in post)
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Panda39
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« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2015, 07:59:33 AM »

Upshot of saying something: Not being the bad guys her mom paints us to be in her ongoing alienation attempts.

I think it's OK for you to not let your x POISON their minds with LIES about you. Don't say anything negative about her but kindly inform them of the TRUTH about you. Kids are observant. They will know the truth by what your X does and not what she says.  Same with how they evaluate you... . ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS! They will know that she is unstable as they mature.

Drawback: The kids potentially having to deal with the fact that for all of her crying, their mom just doesn't want to put in the effort.

Let HER own her actions not you. She is accountable for her relationship with her kids both good and bad. You need to let go of worrying about her ways. That is being co-dependant and is not healthy for you. Besides worrying about her doesn't change her, it just keeps you enmeshed in her toxic world. Focus on what you can control and positively affect... . YOU! Be the best parent you can be and your kids WILL be blessed.

Good Luck to you!

MWC... . Being cool (click to insert in post)

In conjunction with above validate your kids feelings.  It helps strengthen them and trust their own gut.

My SO and both let go of trying to control what his uBPDxw does and lo and behold both daughters (14 & 18) have gone very low contact with their mom.  They get it.  They may have more contact with her later but the key is they get it and can better protect themselves from her lies and drama.
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ForeverDad
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« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2015, 11:23:51 AM »

The challenge, over time of course, is to help the children to become resilient, observant, able to look at the facts versus claims, ask questions, reach their own informed conclusions and stick with them.  Biblical house built on solid rock (reality and father's example of stability) rather than house built on sand (ex's ever-changing perceptions and demands).

For many years they were raised to reflect their disordered parent's feelings, moods and perceptions of the moment.  What that did to them was make them unable to reach a conclusion (reality equals fact) and stick with it because mother repeatedly overwhelmed them (feeling = fact, mood = fact, blaming = fact, triggered rage = fact, etc).

To correct that will take time but kids are very capable of bouncing back, though at first it will be a challenge for them to grab hold of insights and not let go.
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Rubies
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« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2015, 04:18:13 PM »

When DD would be upset and say, ":)ad said you... . "   I'd ask something like, ":)o you think it's true?"  Usually not.  This opened the door to talk about it in a calm way.  Yes, I usually had to pony up documentation to her satisfaction so she could be absolutely sure.   The kid was bombarded with emotional barf.  I understand, I was married to him.   
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livednlearned
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« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2015, 12:44:25 PM »

I think the most important part is gut-checking your intentions. If you are trying to get them to take sides, or if you feel triangulated and want to set the record straight, then it's dangerous waters. Kids are trying to figure out who is paying attention to their reality, their feelings, their truth. It's about them. If it even feels a little like it's about us, the stable parent, then we lose their trust, because 9/10 if not 10/10, they are trying to deal with their own feelings, and don't want to hear ours. I got to the point where I could feel this very subtle shift in the conversation -- it felt like self-righteousness -- when I "lost" S13's attention. He knew I was defending myself. He didn't care about that.

That's why there is so much power in asking validating questions, like Rubies said.

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« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2015, 02:28:34 PM »

I think the most important part is gut-checking your intentions. If you are trying to get them to take sides, or if you feel triangulated and want to set the record straight, then it's dangerous waters. Kids are trying to figure out who is paying attention to their reality, their feelings, their truth. It's about them. If it even feels a little like it's about us, the stable parent, then we lose their trust, because 9/10 if not 10/10, they are trying to deal with their own feelings, and don't want to hear ours. I got to the point where I could feel this very subtle shift in the conversation -- it felt like self-righteousness -- when I "lost" S13's attention. He knew I was defending myself. He didn't care about that.

That's why there is so much power in asking validating questions, like Rubies said.

What I don't understand is the psychology behind a child's predisposition to believe the disordered parent over and over and over again. The kids know she lies. There is tons of evidence to support the fact that she lies pretty constantly and yet they tend to take her word for whatever comes out of her mouth and don't even ask us for clarification. It's never "Mom said she's always driven half way to meet you and dad for pick up and drop off and now it's changed so that she has to dive more than dad does." It's always ":)ad's not really being fair by making mom drive an extra forty minutes longer than he does. They both drove half way before."

Reality: Mom drove 1/3 of the drive (six hours round trip, while DH drove 11 hours round trip) for three years and refused to do half way until there was an order stating she had to. The driving distance is now set to exactly halfway, but because of traffic patterns it can take their mom longer.

How do you even have a conversation about that without obviously defending yourself? It seems so much easier for the BPD parent to tell emotionally convincing lies than it is to clean up the mess that they make. The temptation to just tell the kids the actual truth, without even having them ask for it, is almost overwhelming.

And on the occasion misinformation is corrected, they let it drop. They'll hold us accountable for what they are told we are doing to their mother, but they won't hold their mom accountable for her lies or even stop to think the next time she tells them something that makes their dad a bad guy.
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« Reply #15 on: April 17, 2015, 02:33:32 PM »

I'm guessing it is too terrifying for a child to get their head around how scary the BPD parent is? They have to feel secure in order to feel safe, so believing the parent is preferable to disbelief. Not believing = overwhelming fear.

I experienced genuine terror living with N/BPDx. Looking into his eyes during a psychotic episode is hands-down the most frightening thing I have ever experienced, and I grew up with an uBPD brother who was physically abusive. I thought that was a trial. That was nothing compared to the level of mental illness I experienced with my ex, primarily because I felt I had to get through these episodes for our son's sake, so I had to grin and bear it.

When there is no functional, stable adult in the home, the kids have to manage the instability of their parent on their own. It is probably out of sheer survival that they decide to believe what the bio parent says.
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« Reply #16 on: April 17, 2015, 04:37:34 PM »

Kids have to come up with their own coping mechanisms.  With the BPD, they have to go along to get along or face her wrath.

I think they're regurgitating to you what the BPD mom says because they DO want to talk about it and have clarification.  As far as driving distance, tell them they're smart kids, pull up googlemaps and check the mileage for themselves.  Point them in the right directions for facts, don't just give them "your version of the truth."

Adults have difficulty reconciling what a BPD says when they paint someone black with what their personal experience is with that person.  How much worse is it when its their own children?
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