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Skills we were never taught
98
A 3 Minute Lesson
on Ending Conflict
Communication Skills-
Don't Be Invalidating
Listen with Empathy -
A Powerful Life Skill
Setting Boundaries
and Setting Limits
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Author Topic: Feeling down - update  (Read 956 times)
maxsterling
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« on: April 16, 2015, 11:36:09 AM »

The other thread was getting long, so I am starting a new one.


I'm going a little better, feeling a bit more hopeful, but mainly in regarding things I want to do.  The little bit of me doing things for myself here or there has helped.  Plus, I have gotten back into tackling a personal project at work, and I feel hopeful that I am going something quite exciting and will soon be able to share my results with others.

But the r/s - another story.  I feel like she has had another slip.  She was optimistic last weekend when I was feeling down, but this week it's been nonstop complaints of pain and loneliness.  The past two mornings she was in grouchy moods, snapping at me a bit over the little things I have no control over.  This morning it was because I made oatmeal for the two of us, and I put it into her dish for her as I was serving myself. 

I think the real issue here is once again a Facebook related issue.  She spends considerable time each day browsing facebook and feeling envious of others.  This morning her comment was about how she has so many friends who have had babies lately and they are all on meds while pregnant.  That's her issue, she's told to come off her meds before trying to have a baby, and she doesn't want to/cant come off her meds.  For me, it's not the risk of the meds that is so bad, but the reason she is on the meds.  The meds she are on pose some risk, but the health issues she is taking the meds for are a greater risk.  If she could find the right medications and the right dosages to deal with her chronic pain, depression, and anxiety, I think it would be worth the risk.  But right now she is on meds, still complaining of pain daily, still complaining of anxiety, depression, etc. 

I'm going to give her space today (or to rephrase, give myself space), try and focus on this work project, and things to take care of me.
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maxsterling
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« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2015, 11:49:36 AM »

I should also add one thing... .

The other week when I was feeling rather down, I was also experiencing pain in my lower groin area that I thought was either a UTI or some kind of bladder infection.  I've had issues with this my whole life, but this time it felt different - the pain was more dull, more generalized, and lasted a week rather than a few hours.  I did tell my wife about it at the time, she had her suspicions of this or that, told me she wanted me to see a doctor.  I said I would.  So, after doing a little research, I came to the conclusion that I likely had an infection in my prostate, and this is a chronic issue for me.  I quickly made an appointment to see a urologist. 

I told W last night that I made the urology appointment, and she was upset with me!  Said I had told her that it was only a skin issue (not true) and that I don't communicate with her (her go-to complaint when she is feeling anxious about anything).  Geez, here me at 39 needing to get my prostate checked is a little concerning, and I got NO empathy from her... .
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« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2015, 01:43:07 PM »

Last night I was worried she would be in a bad mood.  But she was mostly okay.  We went out shopping for things to plant in our garden (she wants to help), and she did tire after being out for a bit.  We came home, and the power was out.  First she wanted to blame me for not leaving the outside light on so we could see to unlock the door.  When we found out the power was out, she tried to blame me for that.  But we lit some candles, took a bath together and things were good after that. 

We did have another conversation regarding my pain issues in my lower groin.  It came up because I told her that I was still experiencing some dull pain on occasion, and that it may be an infection in my prostate, and thought it best for me to not engage in sex until I see the urologist next week.  (I told her I could still pleasure her, but I felt I needed to take it easy on my body for a few days.  She expressed concern, although much of her concern had more to do with potential infertility concerns... .

this morning, we both woke up late.  I got up, used the bathroom, started the coffee, and when I got back to the bedroom her first words to me were, "Jesus Christ, didn't I tell you I had a doctors appointment at 8:30?"  My mood immediately sank.  I think that is what I really have a hard time dealing with right now, being put in responsibility for basic things beyond my control - getting her out of bed, making sure she has something to eat, all the times she asks me questions beginning with the phrase "Should I... . "

But she did apologize for her morning grumpiness, using the excuse that she is not a "morning person".   She then went off to T.  She called me a while ago saying that she is going to see T twice a week, and was worried about cost of copays.  I re-assured her that T was very important, and we can find a way to pay the co-pays.
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« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2015, 03:19:56 PM »

@Max     

I hope everything turns out ok at your urologist appointment. I know how bad that feels... . they do not give us any empathy when we are hurt. I had a breast abscess once that felt like it was on fire. Hurt really bad, couldn't sleep. He told me to quit complaining about it. So, I didn't say anything for a few days and it got real bad looking and I went to the doctor. They gave me some antibiotics and such and cleared it up, but now I got this keloid scar that hurts sometimes. When I got home, he was surprised they gave me medication so I showed it to him and he sort of jumped back a little... . said he didn't realize it was that bad.

... .

... .

... .

I hope this gives you some comfort, but I work in the surgery department at a hospital. The vast majority of men with prostate issues ends up being "Benign Prostatic Hypertrophy" and is manageable.

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« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2015, 06:41:33 PM »

Max, I'm going to be sounding like I'm coming out of left field here and I hope that what I say doesn't offend you.

So here goes. I think that our bodies give us messages sometimes that our minds refuse to acknowledge. Your prostate issues might be your body's way of telling you that you should not have children with your wife.

I have a shoulder injury that began many years ago when my husband, who was not my husband at the time, contacted me out of the blue. We had had a relationship that ended and then years later he wrote me. I was quite upset upon receiving this letter and was thinking about it when I was sawing a large limb off my fig tree. As I sawed, I thought I would symbolically cut him out of my life. Suddenly I realized that my shoulder was hurt, but I kept sawing away.

A few months later we got back together and just when he was going to move to my area from several hundred miles away, my shoulder began hurting again and hurt for weeks. Then when we decided to move in together, after not hurting for a while, I got a several month-long recurrence of the shoulder pain. As I became more codependent, my shoulder started hurting on a regular basis.

Finally I figured out the connection and have made attempts to communicate with my shoulder (specifically a rotator cuff injury). When I'm taking care of myself and being true to myself, I seldom have pain. When I don't, that's when I suffer.

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« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2015, 05:27:12 PM »

Well, went to the doctor, who said I likely have an infection in my prostate, and I will take antibiotics for a few weeks and come back for further testing.  Nothing too serious or out of the ordinary.  The doctor did suggest that some of my pain issues in the area may be stress related, and asked if I was under a lot of stress.  I told him yes.  I have no doubt that stress is playing a role in all of this.

Soo.  W was worried about me, wanted to do to the doctor with me, I told her that I did not need her there, she asked why, etc, etc.  But, she wound up having another appointment at the same time anyway.  Afterwards, she called me, asked how it went, I told her, told her that I need to find a way to reduce stress, etc.  And after that, she moved on to talking about her doctor's appointment, and a 30-minute "overview" about how this new doctor told her that the medications she is on are low risk for pregnancy, suggested we start trying to get pregnant ASAP, got all excited about it... .uggh.  The bank account is at zero.  My stress level is already at 9.5 out of 10.  Just the other day she was telling me she felt no point in living.  Two days ago her pain was too unbearable to leave the house. 

So, I flat out told her that I was really stressed out, and before we try to have children I need to find a way to reduce my stress level.   Now she says she is very upset, and need to tell her what to do to be a better wife.  I've given her a few ideas, but she doesn't understand.  I told her that I do need time to myself, and that when we spend time together I need time when we aren't shopping, trying to get things done, on the phone, etc.  I told her that right now my life feels like I am jumping from one thing to the next, and never taking time for myself.   She asked specifically what I feel like I am rushing into, and I told her it wasn't specific, but general feeling like I have an endless list of things to do.

MC is tomorrow.  Good.
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« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2015, 08:47:40 AM »

So, I flat out told her that I was really stressed out, and before we try to have children I need to find a way to reduce my stress level.   Now she says she is very upset, and need to tell her what to do to be a better wife.  I've given her a few ideas, but she doesn't understand.

"My stress level is higher when I try to fix you and solve all your problems, as well as my own. The more you can handle your own issues on your own, and with external support (besides me!), the better I'll be.

If I take on the responsibility of making you better wife it will increase my stress levels, not reduce them."
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« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2015, 09:15:20 AM »

GK, exactly.  But she's got BPD > self-centered > won't be able to understand it that way.  And I have fear because whenever I have tried to communicate that with her, there's been a huge dysregulation.

Yesterday was MC.  Normally I am okay when she spends a lot of time talking about her issues, because I feel that if she doesn't solve her issues, we can't solve couple's issues.  But with me feeling down I tried to be more expressive, yet left feeling invalidated.  I did express that I was depressed, had a bunch of stuff I needed to process, felt stressed, unmotivated, with a low self image. 

Her response was basically to say that she doesn't know what to do to help me, that me being down freaks her out because she needs so much support from me, and that I don't communicate what is wrong with me.  And after that, I closed back up.  It seems to me all the pieces are there plain as day - I feel down, am not expressing myself because feel invalidated, and then I feel more down, she tires to pry more, and the cycle gets worse. 

After that, she wanted to talk about sex issues.  mainly about how she has a lot of sexual trauma to work through.  I knew this, but also told her that when she doesn't work through it, it comes out as meanness to me, and that now I have a lot to process and work though because of mean things she has said to me sexually (some of the wort humiliating put downs ever said to me).  But her issues - wow, they run deep.  Real deep.  And I don't have an issue as long as her past is her past.  But it's obviously not.  She said that being married is a challenge to her simply because she is unsure she can stay monogamous, and that having a baby could also bring up sex issues for her.  I had hypothesized she had issues there, but I feel so incredibly burned because of all the pressure she put on me to get married, so many times she screamed at me over this issue, and now she tells me being married leads to her being uncomfortable sexually?  I feel lied to.

I just need to turn it all off for a few days and focus on the basics of taking care of me.  Last night I could barely sleep because of negative thoughts.  Mean things she had said to me in the past kept running through my head.  I kept thinking that having a child with her would be an extremely bad idea until she works through these very serious issues.  And then I went round and round about how to tell her that.   But this morning, I am trying to remind myself to just take care of me.
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« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2015, 09:28:31 AM »

She said that being married is a challenge to her simply because she is unsure she can stay monogamous, and that having a baby could also bring up sex issues for her. 

/sigh Max... .I feel for ya man. I really do. You try so hard... .too hard in fact because you are making yourself physically ill. You weren't particularly on-board with the whole baby idea at any rate, and I agree with you that you should not pursue that at this time. Do you know what sort of sex issues a baby would cause for her?

God... .that must have hurt to hear her say she didn't think she could be monogamous after badgering to get married. Do you think it's possible she thought  if she went through the marriage, she would magically wake up and want to be monogamous?

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« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2015, 09:53:13 AM »

Some of the sex issues involved having anxiety attacks during exams/delivery of a baby.  Other issues would get int he way of us having an enjoyable sex life needed to produce a baby.  On my end, I don't want to have a baby (or am not in the mood for sex) if a relationship feels unstable.  After what she revealed yesterday, it feels unstable.   

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« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2015, 11:25:02 AM »

I rode my bike to work this morning.  I think it helped.  Just being away and having my own space also helps right now.

I was thinking as I was riding - that I am not in an emotional place to really evaluate things much right now.  I feel like I don't know which way is up and so unsure about everything.  I just don't think I am in a place where I can make sound decisions about things. 

I am on a low dose of SSRI to help with anxiety side affects from ADHD medicine.  I'm thinking about talking to my doctor about increasing the dose to help with depression so that I can be in clearer mind to really evaluate things.  Good idea?  I've been on SSRIs before and they have helped some. 

W came home from an AA meeting, and I told her that I had not slept well.  She asked why, and I told her I just had a lot on my mind and some negative thoughts.  She wanted details and said I should share my burdens with her.  I thought this a bad idea ATM, considering many of my negative thoughts were flashbacks of her screaming at me in the car.  Good idea to be open with her about those flashbacks right now?  I just feel to fragile that if me revealing that led to a dysregulation, I would not be able to handle it.
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« Reply #11 on: April 23, 2015, 12:00:14 PM »

GK, exactly.  But she's got BPD > self-centered > won't be able to understand it that way.  And I have fear because whenever I have tried to communicate that with her, there's been a huge dysregulation.

Yes. Can you say it to her anyway, and protect yourself if/when the dysregulation happens?

Appeasing her by not telling her and giving her some kind of excuse and/or avoiding telling her doesn't slow her down from picking at you like this.

Can you simply say "My mental health is my business. I'm not discussing it with you." Then STFU. And leave the room/house/hang up/whatever if she can't honor that statement.

Excerpt
Yesterday was MC.  Normally I am okay when she spends a lot of time talking about her issues, because I feel that if she doesn't solve her issues, we can't solve couple's issues.  But with me feeling down I tried to be more expressive, yet left feeling invalidated.  I did express that I was depressed, had a bunch of stuff I needed to process, felt stressed, unmotivated, with a low self image. 

Max, it isn't safe for you to discuss your own issues when she is there... .are you getting individual T for yourself? You do need to address these things, and you need a safe place for it!

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« Reply #12 on: April 23, 2015, 12:37:55 PM »

Max, it isn't safe for you to discuss your own issues when she is there... .are you getting individual T for yourself? You do need to address these things, and you need a safe place for it!

This. With as bad as you are feeling, this should be the only thing you focus on right now. We cannot be of any help to our spouses if we are drowning ourselves. <3
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« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2015, 08:43:03 PM »

I had a long email chat with a good friend today.   It helped.  I've been avoiding friends lately because I have not felt very social. 

Had to take my beloved cat to the vet today.  Urinary issues, but he's okay.  He's getting older though.  He's been my best bud for years.

W is at an art studio.  I'm glad she is doing this, and wish she would have put in this much effort a year ago, or even a decade ago.  She was involved in the same art studio last year, but they kicked her out because she never went.  This year, she's actually going and taking the classes (it is a free therapeutic art studio for mentally ill people). 

Right now I am just sitting with my cat, drinking a glass of wine.  Probably not the best idea because I am on antibiotics. but it is helping me relax some.  I just need to clear all this negativity out of my head, somehow.
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« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2015, 10:59:31 AM »

I feel determined to dig myself out of it a bit today.  Maybe if I get started early I won't wallow in it so much. 

W was obviously depressed last night.  She binge ate, said she felt depressed, basically just watched TV.  This morning she said she was depressed and gave me some guilt about not spending time with her in the morning.  I just lack the energy to delve into that with her right now.

She did go to an AA meeting, and now has a T appointment.  Both good.  I feel I should reach out to her via phone sometime today, even though I do not want to enable more phone conversations with her while I am at work (she typically calls 4x per day).

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« Reply #15 on: April 24, 2015, 11:03:37 AM »

I feel determined to dig myself out of it a bit today.  Maybe if I get started early I won't wallow in it so much. 

W was obviously depressed last night.  She binge ate, said she felt depressed, basically just watched TV.  This morning she said she was depressed and gave me some guilt about not spending time with her in the morning.  I just lack the energy to delve into that with her right now.

She did go to an AA meeting, and now has a T appointment.  Both good.  I feel I should reach out to her via phone sometime today, even though I do not want to enable more phone conversations with her while I am at work (she typically calls 4x per day).

If she will call you 4x a day, I would just go ahead and wait for her to do that and speak to her. I hope your kitty is ok <3
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« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2015, 10:36:47 AM »

Max, I'm going to be sounding like I'm coming out of left field here and I hope that what I say doesn't offend you.

So here goes. I think that our bodies give us messages sometimes that our minds refuse to acknowledge. Your prostate issues might be your body's way of telling you that you should not have children with your wife.

I have a shoulder injury that began many years ago when my husband, who was not my husband at the time, contacted me out of the blue. We had had a relationship that ended and then years later he wrote me. I was quite upset upon receiving this letter and was thinking about it when I was sawing a large limb off my fig tree. As I sawed, I thought I would symbolically cut him out of my life. Suddenly I realized that my shoulder was hurt, but I kept sawing away.

A few months later we got back together and just when he was going to move to my area from several hundred miles away, my shoulder began hurting again and hurt for weeks. Then when we decided to move in together, after not hurting for a while, I got a several month-long recurrence of the shoulder pain. As I became more codependent, my shoulder started hurting on a regular basis.

Finally I figured out the connection and have made attempts to communicate with my shoulder (specifically a rotator cuff injury). When I'm taking care of myself and being true to myself, I seldom have pain. When I don't, that's when I suffer.

hello Max,

let's hope your problems can be cured with those antibiotics... .for this time.

however, if the problems return frequently, it isn't wise to take antibiotics regularly !

and second, and here I want to join the ideas of Cat Familiar, there might be some psychological reasons underneath it, so it could be a fysical manifestation of slumbering unbalances in your life.

Personally, I discovered that my bladderproblems (which could be an irritated, hyperactive bladder or a bladderinfection) are obviously connected with me being stressed out, or when I am overtired or exhausted.

Also,  there are some interesting (mainly asian) theories that there is a link between bladderproblems and having difficulties with setting boundaries... .

I wish you a good recovery, take care and pay attention to the signs of your body !
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« Reply #17 on: April 28, 2015, 04:14:20 PM »

I'd been slowly feeling a little bit more excited about life, but this afternoon feeling down again.  I think it is emotional hangover from a dysregulation-filled weekend.  I think that is normal.  I mean, how should one feel when his wife binged on food and then forced herself to puke and blamed it on me?  Or when she boxed up all the unhealthy food in the house, blamed it on me, and ordered me to get rid of it? (its still in my trunk).  Or when she said she felt like drinking/getting high for the first time in 12 years?  I need to accept that depression is the normal reaction after dealing with that.

The prostate pain hasn't gotten any better.  I've been told from several sources now that it won't get better until I reduce my stress level. Urinating is painful.  Sex is painful.  I can't see any chance since I started antibiotics. I go back to the urologist on Friday. 

I asked my P to increase my antidepressants.  I hate doing this, but I think I need to keep that fact from my wife for the time being. 
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« Reply #18 on: April 29, 2015, 06:55:36 PM »

I'm still fighting the blues, but have been more positive as of late.  I've tried to find something to focus energy on and divert my attention from the chaos - and that is my garden.  It's helped, but it feels like more of a stop gap to keep me from thinking about the things that feel so unstable and negative.

As for W - gee - amazing how they can rebound like nothing happened.  last weekend was pretty intense, and she is going on like all is good and last weekend was just a little slip.  And here I am, still processing.  I'm still dealing with the infection, seems to not be getting better at all.  Clearly stress is a factor here.  Last night I was taking a bath to relieve pain, relaxing, listening to music, feeling better, and suddenly I hear a "GOD DAMNIT!" come from the kitchen and I could immediately feel the pain in my groin area come back. 

W went to the doctor yesterday, said she has pain in her lymph nodes on her neck.  This was a follow-up appointment after they did a blood test.  They suggested she quit taking the vitamins she started taking recently, go slower on the detox from pain killers and Xanax, ordered an MRI on her neck, and suggested a fertility test.  I think sometimes doctors have a hunch and order various tests without being too open about the hunch with the patient.  I don't know what the "hunch" is here, but I tried to tell my wife that the fertility test is just one more piece of information they can use to try and figure out what is wrong with her and how to treat it. 

I dread this.  My wife is at times obsessed with having a baby.  She is 39.  She was an illicit drug abuser.  She hasn't taken care of her health.  Imagine the dysregulation that would follow if she found out she were infertile, I was infertile, she had a miscarriage (odds are likely) or we could not conceive.

But - I need to avoid stressing over a future that hasn't come yet.   
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« Reply #19 on: April 30, 2015, 03:58:08 AM »

But - I need to avoid stressing over a future that hasn't come yet.  

YES!  

it sounds like the end of the fysical problems for the both of you isn't near yet, so it will be hugely important to take things one day at a time and pay attention to reduce your stress-levels... .did you ever try anything like breathing-excercises or mindfulness-meditations ? they might help... .
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« Reply #20 on: April 30, 2015, 07:37:37 AM »

But - I need to avoid stressing over a future that hasn't come yet.  

I'll second that. Besides... .whether there is a medical reason your wife cannot have a baby or not... .I'm not sure I can see my way to a reasonable scenario where you and she are mentally healthy enough that you want to have a child with her under any circumstances... .at least not without waiting enough more years that her chances of fertility have gone down 10X farther than they are at 39!
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« Reply #21 on: May 02, 2015, 09:18:13 AM »

Dr.  says my urine tests negative for infection.  Suggested it is stress related and muscular pain, prescribed me valium.  Yikes.  It still feels like an infection, but I don't doubt stress is very closely related here.

Came home from Dr. with wife severely depressed, hitting herself, throwing things around the bedroom.  Not a good time to tell her what the Dr. said.  She of course was worried, when she asked what the doctor said and I started that the doctor could not identify an infection, she flipped out, called him a quack, blamed be for not having her at the Dr. appointment with me and said I didn't ask the Dr. the right questions.  After that, i couldn't even talk about it any more without her interrupting, so I didn't. 

Afternoon was mostly bad, and so was evening.  she dysregulated last night, over money, after checking our bank account.  No win there, I still stand by the decisions I have made in this area.  Screaming at the top of her lungs.  I'm shaking, want to sleep in other room.   I am laying on couch, starting to calm, and next thing she is back to scream at me some more, for an hour and a half.  I tried to stay calm, and just not respond to much of it, but I did do some "backed into the corner" JADE.  I think it was some of those issues where my truth has to come out, and I had nothing left in my gas tank to try and ease her into it in any way.

This is so backwards, with her blaming me for her issues, using my words about "moving forwards" when she is still hung up about how much money we spent on the wedding.

I'm starting to wonder if the only way forward for me is out. 
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« Reply #22 on: May 02, 2015, 09:55:26 AM »

I don't want to read too much into your post, Max, but in some ways your W reminds me of my mother. Not so much the illicit drug use but the raging and dysregulation. We had many scenes of mom screaming all over the house, breaking things, ranting, and the suicide (often for attention ) attempts. There were times it really was a madhouse.

This baby idea. You know it is like the other things- the wedding- the external issue of the moment that takes the focus off her internal issues- your medical issues, the bank account, someone at her meeting who makes her angry.

However, she also is a 39 year old woman facing an inevitable loss of fertility regardless of whether or not it is wise to have a baby. Even women who have children can go through this- knowing it is the last chance in a way and grieving, even if they too don't wish to expand their families. It is possible to be empathetic towards her, regardless of the issue of having a baby. I don't know how it feels to be a man, but I think men who wish to be fathers could also grieve this time, although men retain their fertility longer.

You know that stress affects people physically and mentally. I can't help but connect the two  emotional ideas- your wife wanting a child, when you don't think it is a wise decision, and your pain in your reproductive body parts. This is a painful situation.

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« Reply #23 on: May 02, 2015, 02:30:26 PM »

Notwendy has a very valid point about how tough what your wife is going through is... .but comforting or validating somebody when they are attacking you isn't something you've got the energy and reserves for today.

DUDE. You aren't helping either you or her when you "try to be calm" while letting her scream at you for more than a minute! It is tearing you down. It isn't helping her cope well. And further, if you don't react, she doesn't get any satisfaction, and is going to have to keep trying 'till you do.

I'm starting to wonder if the only way forward for me is out. 

Hang in there man. It is your choice... .and knowing that you do have a choice helps, whatever you do.

My thought is that you need some space and time away from her, immediately... .to get yourself strong enough to even make that kind of choice.

Do you have any friends or family members you can crash on the couch of for a night or three? A vacation (without your wife!) would be better, or even a weekend out in a cabin someplace.
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« Reply #24 on: May 02, 2015, 05:17:33 PM »

I like the suggestion of taking a personal break. One way the dysregulations- screaming, ranting, breaking things, worked for mom was that dad would give her anything she wanted to get a moment of calm, so her behavior was reinforced. She ruled the house as all of us feared her rages. She would hold our stuff hostage too, threatening to break our favorite toys, or ransack dad's home office and wreck his papers if we did not comply. Dad developed a short fuse with us too, if we even tried to consider that her requests we not reasonable. Once she decided she had to have a big fancy computer . However, she is not computer savvy. At the store, I suggested a less costly model that had the features she wanted. Before I could even explain, Dad snapped "GET MOTHER EXACTLY WHAT SHE WANTS" which basically became the family mantra. Once she had planned a very expensive family event and dad was stressing over how to pay for it. We kids put our foot down and said no, we won't do this.

What ensued was days of awful dysregulations . Hollering, yelling, screaming. We tried to give Dad a financial break but she made sure that he paid for it emotionally.

The other way he handled the dysregulations was by walking out of the house, which worked for him, but we were still there. Sometimes I would leave and go to a friends house. Then, mother would pick up the phone and call every one of my friends looking for me and yelling until I came home.

Why am I telling you this Max? Because I am wondering if your wife will dysregulate until you give in and make a baby, or until she realizes that doing this doesn't work. However, it makes sense for her to test your boundary. You said no to her. This could be an extinction burst because you set a personal boundary.

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« Reply #25 on: May 02, 2015, 07:15:35 PM »

For sure a week vacation or break from this would do wonders. Best would be if she took a trip. 

She's still nasty to me today, but obviously trying to move past it.  I'm remembering that she gets most upset/dysregulated when something happens to basically validate the way she feels about herself.  She knows she has a hard time having a calm discussion about money in any way.  Me saying that I need that from her - blow up.  She knows it is stress on me to deal with her.  Me pointing that out - blow up. 

I think that is the key to dysregulation and this illness.  They tend to feel crappy about themselves, and any kind of thing that they perceive as external reinforcement of that self hatred, and they retaliate with both arms swinging. 
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« Reply #26 on: May 02, 2015, 08:12:21 PM »

Max, re-read what you just wrote.

Where is the part where you take any action to make your own life more manageable?

Hoping she will go away?

You need to take care of YOU. Your health is being impacted badly. If you wait for your wife to drop something that will give you peace and space your lap, you might be in the hospital first.
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« Reply #27 on: May 02, 2015, 08:43:21 PM »

Max, I'm with GK here. Your posts are about your W, and how she is making your miserable. Like GK said, what action(s) can you take to take care of yourself?

Max, your body is physically hurting. You need to take care of yourself too.

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« Reply #28 on: May 03, 2015, 12:46:16 AM »

only saying it would be best if she went away because that gives me the chance to relax in my own space, and her a chance to do something on her own.  I'm saying best case scenario. 

But you are right - don't wait on her. 
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« Reply #29 on: May 03, 2015, 02:54:48 AM »

only saying it would be best if she went away because that gives me the chance to relax in my own space, and her a chance to do something on her own.  I'm saying best case scenario. 

But you are right - don't wait on her. 

Yeah, I get that wanting peace in your own space. Does she have any place she might want to go that you could suggest?

But barring that, finding some place out of the house you can go for even an hour would be helpful for your own mental health. I remember right after we got married, H was pretty bizarre for about 3 months, but it did calm down. (Even though we had been living together for 13 years at that point). 

BTW-Robotech fan? Smiling (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #30 on: May 03, 2015, 01:02:40 PM »

Haha.  Yes, my screen name is from robotech.  I loved that show as a kid.  I'm surprised someone finally recognized it! 

Yes, I tend to find ways to be out of the house for just an hour or two, and it does help. 

This morning, I thought my medical issue was doing better - until just now the intense burning came back   Egad.  I'm still not convinced there isn't an infection in there.  I've got a script for a different antibiotic, so maybe this one will help. 

W tells me she doesn't want to go back to her T.  I'm not sure why, but I am sure eventually she will tell me.  This is a big deal.  My guess is this T told her some kind of ugly truth or put it upon her to change her behavior.  My guess?  T suggested BPD was the issue and not PTSD, or T strongly suggested against the pregnancy idea. 

Today we have to do the inevitable food shopping.  After that, I am going to do my best to work on my own projects. 
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« Reply #31 on: May 03, 2015, 02:42:39 PM »

I watched Robotech every afternoon at 4:30. And then made my kids watch it with me on DVD. Even after all these years, they still enjoyed it.

Drink some cranberry juice or cran-grape or cran-apple. It can't hurt and can only help. (Cranberry juice help inhibit bacteria growth-lots of studies out there)

Her T obviously said something that she didn't like.  She might change her mind if she has time to think about it, though.
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« Reply #32 on: May 04, 2015, 09:24:32 AM »

Not exactly what the T said that upset her, but she did mention this morning that she hates it when doctors or therapists tell her to "work out".  She also mentioned her T said something about food that she disagreed with. 

From my experience *all* doctors tell you to eat healthier and exercise more.  I think my W is looking for a doctor to understand and validate her feeling that she can't eat healthier or work out because of her physical or emotional pain. 
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« Reply #33 on: May 04, 2015, 07:02:31 PM »

Hey max... .can I hold your feet to the fire here?

Can you go away next weekend? If not, the one after that, or memorial day weekend?

If you don't make it happen, it's not gonna.

You are worth taking action like this. 
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« Reply #34 on: May 04, 2015, 10:16:02 PM »

Wow.  Thought things had cooled a bit.   Thrn a very ugly mc session.   I am as black as ever.
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« Reply #35 on: May 05, 2015, 05:55:13 AM »



Max,

Sorry about MC    Any new stuff... .or new nuance to how she is painting you black?


I'm going to up the ante on Grey Kitty some... .and not just talk about this weekend... .but  regular time away.

Maybe not a fixed schedule... .but something regular. 

Thoughts?

FF
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« Reply #36 on: May 05, 2015, 10:58:46 AM »

Oh, it's the exact same argument on her end:

- I don't communicate well enough

- We are too poor and I don't make enough money

- I don't tell her every minute detail about my heath or finances

- Her pain and stress >> > my pain and stress

- I am making her feel more stressed and depressed.

It's the same things EVERY time.  Of course, there is a rebuttal to all of that, that I don't mention because the JADE would make things worse.  But I have a bloody tongue from biting it so hard:

- She doesn't listen well enough.  She has the same communication complaint about everyone she meets.

- She doesn't work.  The student loan debt is hers. 

- she asks for details that don't even exist. 

- She expects me to listen to her complaints of pain, but mine are dismissed. 

- She was stressed and depressed before she met me.

The difference this time is that there is the underlying "potential baby" talk.  She's already setting the stage to blame it on me if something goes wrong on that front - such as saying if she was pregnant and I put her though this much stress, she would miscarry and it would be my fault.

I did hear that she wanted to kill herself 4 times last night, and once that she wanted to kill me.   Yikes. That's definitely a new level.  I'm at work now, and need to take the time to calm.  But I think as soon as I get time and calm a bit, I think it is about time to start documenting dates and times of some of this stuff, making a recording app easily accessible on my phone, and researching the D option. 
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« Reply #37 on: May 05, 2015, 12:37:26 PM »

 

Boy... .tough one.

My hope would be... .now that she is seeing a T... .and a P... .that we can shift some of the burden to them. 

They can listen to her stuff... .and you can listen to less of it.


Has she ever said something about killing you before?

FF
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« Reply #38 on: May 05, 2015, 12:54:54 PM »

Well, her dealings with P are that she wants to quit taking meds.  Her shift now is to blame that on me.  So, it's not like the P is helping her stabilize on meds, and instead is helping her with the plan to come off meds.  Ideal situation would be for her to call him, tell him the troubles she is having coming off meds, and actually working with him.

She's decided, for whatever reason, she does not like the T she has been seeing.   My guess is it has to do with T telling her something she did not want to hear.  Best guess on my end is T put it on her too much to change her behavior rather than playing the PTSD/victim role.  That's just a hunch on my part because typically that is what happens when my wife gets this upset.

Good news is, she was on the phone this morning looking for a new T. 

As for threatening to kill me - I think this is the first time I have heard anything like that. 
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« Reply #39 on: May 05, 2015, 01:31:29 PM »

 

Hmmm... .just me thinking outloud.

Do you like the current T?

I'm thinking something along the lines of she needs to keep going for xx months... .before discussing a switch with her mental health team. 

Not sure who all will be on that team... .but needs to be coordinated effort.

Maybe this is where the "babytalk" need to get harsh.

If you stop your treatment and therapy... .baby talk is over.

Note... .that is not saying if you keep doing it... .she gets a baby... .but you won't even discuss it... .without her being in treatment.

Hmmm.

FF
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« Reply #40 on: May 05, 2015, 02:20:08 PM »

Max, I went back and read some of your posts from way back, some from a year ago.  I'm just astonished that you have been able to endure it all.   

Her threatening to kill you is not something you should take lightly.  I fear one day you just won't be posting here anymore, and we will all be wondering why. 

I feel that your body and your heart are warning you.  Can you take five more years of this?  Ten more? 

Your idea of documentation seems to be a good one.  Can you imagine if you had every rage since you've known her on video and just sat and watched them all?  Hours upon hours of screaming and violence?  The cumulative effect of all that is weighing heavy on you, and I don't see her stopping until she has completely destroyed you. 
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« Reply #41 on: May 05, 2015, 02:21:13 PM »

It might be that if she is coming off her meds, she is getting worse. This may reinforce the idea that she really needs them.

I don't need to remind you that it takes two to make a baby, and even one person can make sure a baby does not happen, if you do nothing to make that baby, or let her get to you at a weak moment. You do have some say in this- to be a father if and when you choose to be.
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« Reply #42 on: May 05, 2015, 02:58:28 PM »

Max, I went back and read some of your posts from way back, some from a year ago.  I'm just astonished that you have been able to endure it all.   

Her threatening to kill you is not something you should take lightly.  I fear one day you just won't be posting here anymore, and we will all be wondering why. 

I feel that your body and your heart are warning you.  Can you take five more years of this?  Ten more? 

Your idea of documentation seems to be a good one.  Can you imagine if you had every rage since you've known her on video and just sat and watched them all?  Hours upon hours of screaming and violence?  The cumulative effect of all that is weighing heavy on you, and I don't see her stopping until she has completely destroyed you. 

Dear Max, I second what Verbena said. I have been reading your posts from a long time and that's the first time I read you talking about divorce. Please REALLY consider this option. This woman is destroying you! How much your body can take? You need and deserve some peace in your life!

This is not about her BPD anymore, is about YOU!
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« Reply #43 on: May 05, 2015, 03:24:16 PM »

Here is the part I don't get - but then again I am trying to think logically, so naturally I won't "get" it.

She seems to be resentful of me for our poor financial status.  So last night was the whole speech again about how I am not a provider, how I have no motivation to get a better job, how I have "trapped" her, etc.  Of course, my perspective is 180 degrees different here.  Then the big speech about how she has taken care of herself he whole life, doesn't need me, and the whole 9 yards. The ultimate conclusion as she was laying down to sleep was that she needs to look for a job of her own but does not know what she can do.

The attitude changed again today.  Now she is resentful of me for "forcing" her to get a job.  She said she applied for two, but can't stand to apply for more.  And she blamed me for forcing her to this... .

How 1+1 does not equal two here makes no sense to me.  She declares she can take care of herself, wants to take care of herself, yet when forced to take care of herself (such as fixing her own meals), she blames me for not taking care of her.
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« Reply #44 on: May 05, 2015, 03:45:07 PM »

Here is the part I don't get - but then again I am trying to think logically, so naturally I won't "get" it.

She seems to be resentful of me for our poor financial status.  So last night was the whole speech again about how I am not a provider, how I have no motivation to get a better job, how I have "trapped" her, etc.  Of course, my perspective is 180 degrees different here.  Then the big speech about how she has taken care of herself he whole life, doesn't need me, and the whole 9 yards. The ultimate conclusion as she was laying down to sleep was that she needs to look for a job of her own but does not know what she can do.

The attitude changed again today.  Now she is resentful of me for "forcing" her to get a job.  She said she applied for two, but can't stand to apply for more.  And she blamed me for forcing her to this... .

How 1+1 does not equal two here makes no sense to me.  She declares she can take care of herself, wants to take care of herself, yet when forced to take care of herself (such as fixing her own meals), she blames me for not taking care of her.

I'm dealing with similar logic, Max. If you see my current post, you will get the full story. https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=276365.0

What I think it boils down to is the battle inside them everyday. They know what they SHOULD do, they know what the RIGHT thing to do is, but all of the excuses, the insecurities come flooding in, making it hard to see. Moments of clarity... .moments of murkiness.

The idea of taking that first step... .of having to be responsible is hard because once they do that... .they might 'fail', and failure isn't an option.
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« Reply #45 on: May 05, 2015, 04:39:37 PM »

Max,

I'm going to chime in with the others and encourage you to decide what your truth is and to take care of yourself.

Many of your posts are focused on her. Today she says this, tomorrow she says that. Her realty changes by the moment. What about yours?

It is so hard to read your posts because this is the life I lived, with my parents and with my H for so long. I accepted their reality. But it wasn't mine. If my H got jealous of something that I didn't do, I really believed I was responsible, until one day when he was raging, I thought " this makes no sense to me at all".

I think my mother is at the most symptomatic end of the BPD spectrum.  The reality: mom could not ever hold down a job. Mom really had no personal power. Her entire way of getting things done was to a) terrorize us ( her family) into doing it, or providing it for her or b) pay someone to do it- housekeepers or others. One of the main differences between you and my dad was finances. My dad could afford to get household help, but it was a major part of our budget, for instance he was not able to help us kids with college, and we had to do without some things in order for him to do this for her. Still, dad's ability to get household help probably made the largest difference in our outcome as kids.

Often, mom would get mad at dad and say she was going off on her own, getting her own apartment. Sometimes she was so convincing, she had us believing that he was the one who was the problem and she was perfectly fine. We were kids and we had these alternating realities- what we saw, and what she ( and my dad played into it) told us.

I believe at these times, that mom was portraying her ideal self, the one she felt she had to live up to. Dad played into it. We were supposed to pretend that mom was normal, we were normal. She lies to us. I can not remember the last time she drove a car- she can not drive a car. It has been at least 40 years. Dad used to drive her everywhere, and even when he got too sick to drive she made him drive her. She even made him buy a new car, a car he maybe drove a couple of times before he died. She still has the car, she insists that she can drive it, and if we dare say she can't - she has a fit. When I come to visit her, I have to help her with everything. Taking mom anywhere is like going out with a small toddler. She gets lost and disoriented, or she gets hungry or needs the bathroom. This makes sense at her age. However, I have felt like the other adult in the family since I was 12- doing things for her like cooking, sewing, and other tasks that she told others she did.


I didn't wake up out of my family fog until I became a mother and then realized how crazy things were for me. There was always what I saw when I went home to visit, and then, what my parents said. The two do not connect. As far as mom is concerned, she is perfectly capable of doing things on her own. The truth: Dad left her enough money to have almost constant help. It just doesn't look strange anymore, since she is elderly and many people her age need help. The truth: she needed this much help since she was young too.

One of my father's difficulties was that my mother spoke to him all the time, and eventually, he bought into her reality. Her reality changed according to her moods. This is why your posts are so hard for me to read. So many times, Dad would say " your mother this, your mother that" and if we asked him, he'd say "well this is what your mother says". However, we were old enough to recognize that part of mental illness is that thinking and perception is distorted. Your wife may say one thing today, something else tomorrow, but what is real?

Yes, your wife says she is getting a job, wants a baby, can live on her own, doesn't need you... .but what is your truth?

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« Reply #46 on: May 05, 2015, 05:53:59 PM »

Max:

1. Take care of yourself. I've suggested you make some space away from her happen on your part. I get a "that would be a good idea" but you don't mention taking any action.

2. She's gonna blame you for everything. It is what she does. Don't pick it up when she hands it to you, and exit circular arguments immediately when she does it.

You can't convince her that it isn't your fault or that it is her responsibility.

You can drive yourself nuts and ruin your health by listening to it, half-believing it, and trying to make sense out of the inconsistencies (both with itself and with reality)

Or you can enforce a boundary and end conversations like that with her.
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« Reply #47 on: May 05, 2015, 06:52:33 PM »

Yes, your wife says she is getting a job, wants a baby, can live on her own, doesn't need you... .but what is your truth?

Deep down... .I'm thinking your wife wants you to live this out as well.  Needs you to live this out... .

FF

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« Reply #48 on: May 05, 2015, 08:20:53 PM »

I think you guys are right.  Stop trying to figure out what my wife is up to, and take it at face value. 

Tonight she is working a volunteer job.  I'm relaxing, worked a bit in my garden, going to print up some of my artwork to see if I can get it displayed at a local coffee house, maybe apply for some kind of part time job that I will enjoy. 
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« Reply #49 on: May 06, 2015, 01:16:58 AM »

Max, her dysregulation is taking you down. The further down you go, the further down she goes. Rinse and repeat. If you can't stabilize yourself, your own emotional and physical well being, you have nothing to help her with. Period.

Put on your own oxygen mask first.
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formflier
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« Reply #50 on: May 06, 2015, 05:53:25 AM »

I think you guys are right.  Stop trying to figure out what my wife is up to, and take it at face value. 

 

Max,

I'm going to defend you "JADE" if you will!   

If you spend time observing and figuring out your wife... .and that information gets to her P and T... .and you are able to keep yourself strong... .and your wife keeps participating in treatment... .

Then I think it is a worthy cause... .lot of ands there... .


New thought... .

Something has been bugging me for a bit.  If she has never mentioned killing you before... .then that was an escalation... .a big one.

Tough spot to be in... .does her T and P know about this?  What is your plan if it happens again?

Did you ever get to the point of a "standard response" to her threats of suicide?

FF
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« Reply #51 on: May 06, 2015, 06:57:22 AM »

FF, I agree with you. I think it is helpful to understand how she feels and thinks.

So permit me to JADE a little too- to clarify. What I meant was to not focus on specific fluctuating statements or feelings as being more than that. Patterns perhaps. I agree with being alert to the threat to kill him, but I don't know if this is a one time outburst or a more long standing idea.

My H has made some horrible insulting statements about me. I used to take them at face value, and feel very hurt. I would also act on them to prove that they were not true. I could not stand to think he thought these things about me. Then, he would act/say the opposite, tell me I'm a great wife and mom. This was very confusing. I would be thinking what the heck, which one am I? Then, I realized that if I acted according to what I thought was my best effort, if I believed that I was the best person I could be (albeit , we all make mistakes), then whatever he said/felt at the moment- either that I was horrible or the greatest, was his idea, but it didn't have to be mine. Shifting the focus off his moods onto my own ideas of trying my best was a change for me.

Growing up, the mantra in our house was " what is mother's mood?". Mother's mood dictated the tone of our home. It was like the thermostat. However, this kept us from having an idea of who we were, our moods, based on something besides her. Her mood was the measurement of how good we were as kids, but in reality, her mood was based on her feelings at the moment.

Yes, understanding patterns and behavior is very helpful. What I am getting at is for Max to check his feelings and his truth based on what he knows to be true. If his wife says something- does that mean it is true for him?

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« Reply #52 on: May 06, 2015, 09:05:40 AM »

She's mentioned wanting to "kill" others before, mainly her father or stepmom.   Usually statements like "I feel like stabbing/shooting her in the face."  While I take those statements along with the emotions of the moment, I still take them quite seriously, because never ever in my life have I heard anyone else make a comment like that.  Maybe I am sheltered, I dunno.  I've heard people make threats of violence against others before, but never to the point of stabbing or shooting.

So right now, I take her comment toward me along the same line, but nonetheless still have to take it seriously.  Is she capable of that kind of violence towards another?  That borders on a philosophical question that makes me winder how anyone is capable.  But given the emotions of any given moment, and should the means be easily available, I think it possible.  In other words, not a good idea for me to keep a gun in the house. 

As fore her P and T - I do not have contact with either of them.  Would this be wise?  Right now, she is shopping for a new T - not sure why.  I will bring up this in MC, though... .

The thing here is that I need to calm myself down a bit first so that I am thinking rationally and not emotionally, and then be prepared to have the D as an option before I really start to get into this at MC or by contacting her T. 
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Cat Familiar
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« Reply #53 on: May 06, 2015, 09:30:21 AM »

Max, this is a different topic, but it relates to your thoughts about contacting your wife's therapists.

My husband was abusing pharmaceutical drugs and mixing them with large quantities of alcohol. Before I found this forum and realized that he had BPD, I had tried on many occasions to beg and plead with him to moderate his use. And you can imagine how badly my efforts were received.

I struggled for a long time--several years, about contacting his doctor who prescribes his medications. I was worried about violating his privacy. Finally this year when I had my physical, I told her. The way I phrased it was that I suspected that my husband wasn't being totally truthful about his use of alcohol and I was concerned that he was combining it with drugs.

She was great! When I told her how much he drank on a regular basis, she said "That's a lot!" She checked his prescription records, asked me if he was getting prescriptions elsewhere and then told me how often he had refilled his prescriptions. It put my mind at ease to realize that in recent times he had actually been behaving more moderately than a few years ago when he was being a total train wreck.

The takeaway I want to share with you was that she thanked me for telling her and was really kind and supportive. Professionals have very limited time with their patients/clients and they can't possibly know what goes on at home. I think they need to know about her making those threats. That's very serious.
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“The Four Agreements  1. Be impeccable with your word.  2. Don’t take anything personally.  3. Don’t make assumptions.  4. Always do your best. ”     ― Miguel Ruiz, The Four Agreements: A Practical Guide to Personal Freedom
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« Reply #54 on: May 06, 2015, 09:46:42 AM »

Staff only


This thread has reached its post limit, and is now closed. This is a worthwhile topic, and you are free to start a new thread to continue the conversation. Thanks for your understanding... .
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