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Author Topic: Formflier's Validation Challenge  (Read 965 times)
formflier
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« on: May 02, 2015, 07:12:26 AM »




Lesson on validation


So... .I've been thinking about things... .I've been chatting with some with some members on here and I want become a more validating person.  Not just to my wife... .but in general.

Sure... .I've played around with validation... .but I still feel very clumsy with it.  I believe I have made great strides in avoiding obvious invalidation.  Basically arguing with my wife that she should see something a different way... .

I read the lesson a couple times this morning... .and I think the first thing I wan to work on... .is being quicker about "finding the validation target".

For instance:  Yesterday my wife calls me on the phone.  She is in a bad cell coverage area... .it becomes obvious she is not hearing me... .I still hear her just fine.  She starts to go off... .to the point of saying ("effe you if you aren't going to talk to me... ." and then hangs up... .she calls me right back.

She asks why I wouldn't talk to her and I reminded her that she was in bad area... .I assured her I heard everything she said... .and that I was trying to talk.  (click... .line drops again)

She calls back... .and asks if I hung up on her and that she needs directions to library.  I said no and explained how to get to library.

So... .on one hand... .I never grumped at her... .and don't think I obviously invalidated her.  However... .I think the "target" was that she was and has been frustrated for a while that I (and many others) aren't listening to her. 

I suspect she doesn't feel heard.

So... .I want to validate that... .I want to be empathetic with the frustration of being ignored... .but I don't want to be on the hook to change my behavior so she "knows" she has been heard.

Her version of my capability to get work done... .and mine are much different. 

So... .should I have tried to keep her on the phone and say something like

"I'm here for you.  I can see how frustrating it is for you to feel like you were not being heard.  The cell service is that area is very poor... .I suspect this will be continued problem for you while driving down there."

Above is an attempt at SET.   If my goal is validation... .did I get that done.  OR  Did I make a point to her that it's not my fault?

Anyway... .my hope is that I can put some examples up here... .and you guys can help me learn to be a better validater.

FF
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« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2015, 10:56:09 AM »

My first thought was, "Why didn't you attempt to call her back?" Or, send her a text that said, "Hey, the call dropped. I heard everything you said. Can you call me back when you get better reception?" Or something like that.

Something about validation that I don't think comes through in the lessons is tone of voice. My husband and I both have a bad habit of saying things that would be very validating IF it was said in a different tone. And then there are things that, when taken out of context, would be very invalidating yet in context with the right tone is actually pretty validating.

Have you ever read anything about micromessages? It is something that is usually talked about with relation to business. I think it might be helpful to look deeper than the obvious of "Is this statement validating?" Here is a link that briefly talks about micromessages: www.communicoltd.com/pages/1017_are_microinequities_damaging_your_workplace_.cfm
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« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2015, 12:42:19 PM »

FF, did anyone validate you as a child, and if so, how did they?

I wasn't validated much, and my H had a very critical invalidating dad. Often when I bring something up, my H's first response is negative and critical. This felt very hurtful, but I realize that this is how he was raised. I have referred to this as his father speaking out of his mouth.

I sometimes think I am invalidating and I think it is also something I was not raised with. I know for my H, having to say something like you suggested " I'm here for you" would feel foreign. Feeling like he is on the hook to change his behavior is something he would have concerns about. I am not suggesting that you have the same issues as my H, but both of you were in military families, and so maybe there is some component to this that comes from that.

Also, consider "normal" differences. Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus are great books to describe how men and women tend to see speaking. Women talk to share feelings, but this is uncomfortable for a man because he feels as if he needs to fix it. Then, when he offers a way to fix it, the woman may feel invalidated because what she wanted was emotional support.

This may feel odd to you, but I think this is a good idea to say something as you suggested.

"I'm here for you.  I can see how frustrating it is for you to feel like you were not being heard.  The cell service is that area is very poor... .I suspect this will be continued problem for you while driving down there."

As to feeling on the hook to change your behavior, one way our MT brings this idea up is to ask " well, how is your old behavior working for you". If it is working to get the connection that you want, then great, but if it isn't then why not consider trying something new, maybe that would work.

Words are not validating to my H, but actions like cooking for him are. Sharing the task of meals would be validating to me because it is time spent together on something we share.  I wish meal time was a social and shared activity. As far as my H is concerned, meal preparation and doing the dishes is something he won't do. I didn't expect a 50-50 shared split on household tasks, but he made deep and firm divisions between what he would do and what I should do. I know that he contributes in other ways, but mealtime for me is a social experience, a shared one.

In his family, mom cooked. Dad sat down, ate, didn't say a word, then got up and went to the living room to relax. Mom cleaned up. My H repeated this because to him, this means being a man. To do dishes, meant he was not a man. So, what could have been validating to me is invalidating to him. I have accepted some things because they are validating to him. However, meal time to me is not gratifying.

What I am getting at is that validation can be very emotionally driven and so, might require us doing something that seems unfamiliar to us.

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« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2015, 12:58:12 PM »

This may feel odd to you, but I think this is a good idea to say something like this:

"I'm here for you.  I can see how frustrating it is for you to feel like you were not being heard.  The cell service is that area is very poor... .I suspect this will be continued problem for you while driving down there."

That sounds good in theory. I am thinking about how I would react if my husband said something like this to me. I may or may not say anything but I know that my husband has tried to tell me that he is here for me. I don't believe him when he says it. I don't believe him because his actions show something very, very different. He might be here for me in that moment because it is convenient for him. For me, all of the validating words in the world are not going to feel validating when coming from my husband because his actions have continually been invalidating.

If a call gets disconnected, it sure feels good when the other person texts or makes a move to show that it wasn't the other person hanging up. My husband and I have gone through periods of hanging up on each other to put a stop to a tense conversation that was going nowhere. It really helps if we text each other or call each other back immediately to make sure that it isn't one of those situations.

Excerpt
Words are not validating to my H, but actions like cooking for him are.

This reminds me of the book about the five love languages. There are some quick and easy tests online that people can take to get a better idea of what each others love languages are.
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« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2015, 01:09:45 PM »

Excerpt
She calls back... .and asks if I hung up on her and that she needs directions to library.  I said no and explained how to get to library.

How's this for SET?

How frustrating, especially when what we are trying to discuss is so important! I guess the call was dropped! If it hangs up again, please keep trying.  I want to hear what you have to say.

Is it acceptable/helpful to "join forces" and vent frustration at The Cellular Company? Or is that a form of triangulation?  Or can triangulation ever be positive?

Ex: It is annoying when we are trying to chat, and the forces of "Mobile-P or Zerizon" seem to be against us! (with a joking tone)

(I want to learn these tools as well, however, I am from the leaving board.  He is gone, but I still want to learn. Which feels harder for me as I do not have the PD person to practice with, so I feel like it is hard for me to cement these tools in my mind. So I want to practice with persons at work to develop this more. However, I may seem "out of touch" in this board which could appear invalidating to others here.  I hope my presence is not minded... .as long as I'm not openly promoting "leaving."  Feel free to tell me otherwise tho... .of course... .all is good.)
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« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2015, 03:41:15 PM »

Excerpt
Is it acceptable/helpful to "join forces" and vent frustration at The Cellular Company? Or is that a form of triangulation?  Or can triangulation ever be positive?

that is a very interesting thought. I guess this is worth keeping out an eye in general as it is so easy to blame third parties and support unhealthy patterns... .

... .but in this case the communication was factually impacted by a third party. A third party was interfering with the couple. In some sense the couples boundaries were violated and she was getting upset.  It may have been validating to show some sign of upset too rather than trying to stay very calm. Is it venting if we also embellish our frustration in order to get heard by the pwBPD?

Another thought may be to think how to get her down from where she was. Often it helps to meet people on their current emotional excitement level and then stepwise ratchet it down. In this line of thinking words matters less but tone, volume, posture etc. matter a lot... .Why am I stressing this angle - with bad reception you need to limit what you communicate - not much gets through the noisy channel. Basic sentiment - anger at carrier X - love you - try later may still get through in a short time. The more standard the behavior is the less information capacity on the channel you need. Consistency is your friend.

As it has been discussed in the past on the board the cell phones are as much a boon as a curse. They suggest instant satisfaction and enable impulsive behavior. A lot of calls are really not needed and I found it often a better strategy - after initial assessment whether it is a genuine emergency - to leverage the bad reception to validate her frustration through the broken channel about the reception, about the not answered need and then hang up. These are good opportunities to learn how to cope by herself. In this case the world would not have ended if she had to search for the library through other means. Calling FF may well have been the emotionally most convenient solution but not necessarily the real world best solution for her question.
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« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2015, 03:46:45 PM »

For this instance, I would say "It's so frustrating, I have all kinds of problems with poor coverage when I'm in that area, too. If we get dropped again, I'll call you back. I can hear you, can you hear me OK now? The directions to the library are... ."

Explains the bad cell service, empathizes with the bad service, puts you on her side because you also have those problems, puts you on the "I care about you so I will do the calling back" position, makes sure she knows you hear her and want to communicate clearly, and gives her the information she needs.
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« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2015, 06:35:17 PM »

I find it interesting that she assumed you hung up on her. With so many times phones drop calls, the first thing I think of is that the line got dropped. Then I try again.

One thing that might work is to say. "Honey, I see how frustrating it is to have the call dropped. I also know how hurtful it is to be hung up on. Next time this happens, assume that it is the phone service, and try to call me back. I will try to call you back if you can't get me. Love you"
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« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2015, 07:19:53 PM »

I find it interesting that she assumed you hung up on her. With so many times phones drop calls, the first thing I think of is that the line got dropped. Then I try again.

It would make perfect sense for her to assume this IF FF has hung up on her or cut her short in an attempt to set boundaries. I know that I have done that to my husband and he has done it to me.

IF the relationship is strained because of all of the other stuff going on, his wife could be feeling very confused and unsure everything because FF is attempting to set boundaries while still trying to validate her. Is it possible to do both? I know that when I am trying to set new boundaries my husband becomes unsure of everything and sees everything as a personal attack even if it is something that is totally out of my control, like a dropped call.
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« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2015, 07:54:41 PM »

I am interested in this idea of " if triangulation can ever be positive" and about "joining forces'.

I think I do this quite a lot because not to do so would seem like I am taking a stand against him. When he complains, for example, about the neighbours doing something weird etc. my normal reaction would be I suppose, to say something like, that I had noticed them doing whatever but that it didn't bother me. Instead I join forces and say that yes they are weird etc (they are) and try to make the whole exchange a little light hearted. I feel this is validating for him but perhaps I am wrong and I am just enabling again.
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« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2015, 10:22:36 PM »

"I know that when I am trying to set new boundaries my husband becomes unsure of everything and sees everything as a personal attack even if it is something that is totally out of my control, like a dropped call."

I see where FF's wife could see it that way. It could feel as if the other person is hanging up on them. I think it helps to keep in mind that we see things differently, although we can't control how they think.
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« Reply #11 on: May 02, 2015, 11:11:14 PM »

I see where FF's wife could see it that way. It could feel as if the other person is hanging up on them. I think it helps to keep in mind that we see things differently, although we can't control how they think.

There is history here with phones.  I used to try and "prove" things... .most of the time I did.  So... .she would claim I hung up on her... .I would show her my phone log showing xx times I tried to call. 

With what I now know... .I think I invalidated her... .because she felt like I hung up on her.

I have tried to suggest it is phone service... .or suggest she call the phone company to ask and complain... .  Nah... .that doesn't help.

FF
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« Reply #12 on: May 02, 2015, 11:13:41 PM »

This reminds me of the book about the five love languages. There are some quick and easy tests online that people can take to get a better idea of what each others love languages are.

My wife is a "touch" person... .off the charts.

I'm an "acts of service" guy... .

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« Reply #13 on: May 02, 2015, 11:14:42 PM »

My first thought was, "Why didn't you attempt to call her back?" Or, send her a text that said, "Hey, the call dropped. I heard everything you said. Can you call me back when you get better reception?" Or something like that.

Because she was calling back so quickly.

I did send her a text as well... .after 2nd or 3rd call issue.

FF
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« Reply #14 on: May 02, 2015, 11:17:53 PM »

FF, did anyone validate you as a child, and if so, how did they?

I got praise for doing good things... .my Dad is most likely an acts of service guy... .I think that is where I learned it... .and modeled it.

My mom's mom (my grandmother)... .was harsh and invalidating.  My mom still had some of this in her... .but was way better.

My wife's mom and grandma are both invalidating "warners". 

You better not do xyz... .or else... .

I don't think she was validated much growing up... .tried to stay out of her mom's way.

FF
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« Reply #15 on: May 03, 2015, 08:18:42 AM »

If I try to defend myself against a false accusation, my H just builds a stronger case for his point. Our MC has made a point of encouraging me not to defend a false accusation- as that sort of validates it- if it is important to defend it. I realize that if he wants to make up something about me, I can't do much about his thinking. This actually happens often. If I get busy about something, then I am "purposely ignoring him". He even accused me of avoiding him when I was sleeping, saying I was pretending to be asleep. No, I WAS asleep, but there was not convincing him of that. I finally decided there is no use trying to defend what is crazy.

So, FF, maybe just dropping the dropped call explanation and moving on is an option. If she chooses to think that you hung up on her, and is determined to believe that, there isn't a lot you can do. You know the truth. Maybe there is a way you can sinc some of your validation to how your wife feels validated. I have to look at what my H does to validate me in his own way, and if I want to validate him, I need to do it in a way that he recognizes it. Otherwise, we can keep trying things but not be very effective in how they are received.

When I asked about how you were validated as a child, it is because to understand how my H feels, I had to look at how people in his family validated ( or didn't ) each other. It seems that feeling validated can be emotionally based, and might be formed early on. Looking at your wife's family might give you some clues to how she feels validated. That doesn't mean you have to take on all their behaviors. I don't want to act like my MIL. However, understanding that my H's FOO does not tend to validate verbally- but dad was verbally invalidating- was a clue to why my attempts to discuss things with my H were not validating to him.

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« Reply #16 on: May 03, 2015, 09:38:28 AM »

I am a little late to this one, but my thought is that is is futile to attempt to validate a pwBPD once they are in full-on "you did that to me" mode. Their feelings carry more weight than all the hard evidence in the world.

I once told my wife to watch for a birthday bouquet which was being delivered to her workplace. It never came. She accused me of intentionally messing with her head. I showed her the charge to our VISA and the email from the florist apologizing for having lost the order. That was in 2012 and to this day she still accuses me of never having ordered the flowers to begin with.   

Attempting to validate the invalid serves only to put us, the NON's, on the defense. FF, if she is not going to believe you even after you show her the evidence, then don't bang your head against the wall trying. It only puts you on the defense and hardens her resolve.  
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« Reply #17 on: May 03, 2015, 10:46:11 AM »

It may have been validating to show some sign of upset too rather than trying to stay very calm. Is it venting if we also embellish our frustration in order to get heard by the pwBPD?

Another thought may be to think how to get her down from where she was. Often it helps to meet people on their current emotional excitement level and then stepwise ratchet it down. In this line of thinking words matters less but tone, volume, posture etc. matter a lot.

FF, I think that you and I may have some common problems in our communication with our pwBPD in that I'm assuming that you also are very analytical and unemotional, while our SOs are extremely emotionally expressive and quick to become upset.

I've begun to realize that if I'm totally calm and rational while my husband is flipping out, that in itself is invalidating. He frequently accuses me of "being on my high horse" and looking down at him, when in reality, I'm totally confused and trying to figure out what on earth he's so upset about.

Sometimes, as anOught mentions, I've embellished, no totally playacted that I've been upset too, and it seems to work as something like a validation that assuages my husband that it is reasonable for him to feel upset. Doing that feels weird, manipulative, dishonest, but it can be effective in the moment.
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« Reply #18 on: May 03, 2015, 01:08:28 PM »

There is history here with phones.  I used to try and "prove" things... .most of the time I did.  So... .she would claim I hung up on her... .I would show her my phone log showing xx times I tried to call. 

I am trying to understand this dynamic. The two of you would be on the phone. You would try to prove something to her. She would hang up on you? Or would you hang up on her? If you tried to call her back, she wouldn't answer?

Excerpt
With what I now know... .I think I invalidated her... .because she felt like I hung up on her.

Did you hang up the phone or did the call drop? From your description, it sounds like you hung up because you couldn't hear her but she could hear you. If she could hear you, did you at any point say, "I can't hear you. I am going to hang up and call back. I am frustrated because I can't hear you."

If you hung up, even though it was because you couldn't hear her, then you did in fact hang up the phone. It doesn't matter that your intent wasn't to hang up on her and end the call. Logic says that you did in fact hang up on her. 

Excerpt
I have tried to suggest it is phone service... .or suggest she call the phone company to ask and complain... .  Nah... .that doesn't help.

If you have had the same problems with the phone service, why don't you call and ask? Is the phone service her responsibility?

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« Reply #19 on: May 03, 2015, 01:25:03 PM »

FF, I think that you and I may have some common problems in our communication with our pwBPD in that I'm assuming that you also are very analytical and unemotional, while our SOs are extremely emotionally expressive and quick to become upset.

I've begun to realize that if I'm totally calm and rational while my husband is flipping out, that in itself is invalidating. He frequently accuses me of "being on my high horse" and looking down at him, when in reality, I'm totally confused and trying to figure out what on earth he's so upset about.

Sometimes, as anOught mentions, I've embellished, no totally playacted that I've been upset too, and it seems to work as something like a validation that assuages my husband that it is reasonable for him to feel upset. Doing that feels weird, manipulative, dishonest, but it can be effective in the moment.

I am going to offer a perspective from the other side. I can be very analytical and unemotional at times. So, when I do get upset, I want my husband to take notice. Not necessarily to DO anything but to offer some kind of emotional support. He can be supportive while being calm, however, it is the lack of connection that gets under my skin. He isn't asking me questions. He isn't offering to do anything that might help me with the situation. He is sitting there clueless like I am a three headed monster or some kind of alien. That feels very invalidating. Even if you don't understand and are completely confused by the upset, there are things that you can do to try to connect with the other person.

When my husband is upset, I try to be genuinely concerned. Sometimes, I do have to watch myself because I will catch myself thinking, "What the heck is the problem this time?" When I think that, it comes out in how I respond to him and that seems to make things worse. Yesterday, he came in the kitchen and said that he was in pain. Without even thinking, I said in a nasty tone, "What is hurting THIS time?" The minute I said it, I knew that I shouldn't have said it.
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« Reply #20 on: May 03, 2015, 01:35:45 PM »

Good point, Vortex. I think with the emotional distance I have, added to my typically calm and unemotional nature, that I'm forgetting to be supportive in a warm human way. No wonder he calls me "Robot Woman" sometimes.  Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #21 on: May 03, 2015, 02:56:18 PM »

Good point, Vortex. I think with the emotional distance I have, added to my typically calm and unemotional nature, that I'm forgetting to be supportive in a warm human way. No wonder he calls me "Robot Woman" sometimes.  Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)

I understand that one, "Robot Woman"! Our friends describe us as "Spock marries Lucille Ball".

If I don't get over the top mad, happy, excited, etc... .like she does- and I don't- then she assumes I don't care or am not "on her side" as she puts it. 

In the BPD world, over the top reaction is normal; they do not know anything different. So, they see our normal reactions as uncaring.   
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« Reply #22 on: May 03, 2015, 03:05:34 PM »

I think one reason my H was attracted to me was because of my emotionality. I was, not so much anymore, a warm and openly affectionate person. His family was very regimented and stoic. They were not openly emotional, and I think, I provided something for him that he craved and it was missing from his life.

However, once he painted me black, he became very critical of my emotionality. He said he considered it a sign of weakness. When he raged and accused me of things, I would JADE, which made things worse. Eventually I would break down in despair. To stop the rages I would agree with him, say he was right, everything is my fault. All the while , he stayed calm and collected and used my upset to prove how I was the one with the problem.

So, I became stoic in his presence. If I get upset or cry, he gets very stern and aggressive to stop it. He takes any negative emotions as a criticism. He wants the positive ones, not the negative ones, and he wants to be able to turn them on when he wants them and not when he doesn't. Over time, I have toned down my emotions in front of him. Now, he says he misses the affection and all the positive emotions. It's strange- he wants them, but when he gets them, he doesn't want them. I'm affectionate with my kids and other family members, but I don't feel comfortable being the emotional one in this situation.

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« Reply #23 on: May 03, 2015, 03:14:35 PM »

Good point, Vortex. I think with the emotional distance I have, added to my typically calm and unemotional nature, that I'm forgetting to be supportive in a warm human way. No wonder he calls me "Robot Woman" sometimes.  Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)

I understand that one, "Robot Woman"! Our friends describe us as "Spock marries Lucille Ball".

If I don't get over the top mad, happy, excited, etc... .like she does- and I don't- then she assumes I don't care or am not "on her side" as she puts it. 

In the BPD world, over the top reaction is normal; they do not know anything different. So, they see our normal reactions as uncaring.   

Hello Spock! Yes, yes, yes. If I'm not jumping up and down with excitement over something (which I never do), he thinks I don't care and/or am not on his side. It's exhausting to even try to match his emotionality--and totally not me.
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« Reply #24 on: May 03, 2015, 03:49:09 PM »

There is history here with phones.  I used to try and "prove" things... .most of the time I did.  So... .she would claim I hung up on her... .I would show her my phone log showing xx times I tried to call.  

I am trying to understand this dynamic. The two of you would be on the phone. You would try to prove something to her. She would hang up on you? Or would you hang up on her? If you tried to call her back, she wouldn't answer?

I don't think I explained this well.  

She used to accuse me of not caring about her... .because I didn't try to call... .ignored her call... .blah blah.

So... .I would show her my phone... .showing multiple tries to call her.  Even better... .if i would ask for her phone ahead of time... .that way I would lay out both call logs side by side... .showing that she had missed calls... .and either had her ringer turned off... .or ignored it.

But... .the process of me proving myself innocent of "not calling"... .would upset her more.

Once... .I even got phone records from phone company to prove her made up version of things wrong... .and show I was loyal husband that told the truth.  She got more upset.

Again... .all of this was pre=BPD knowledge.

Anyway... .so I never know when phone issues come up... .how much history she is thinking about.

FF

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« Reply #25 on: May 03, 2015, 04:11:07 PM »

I can be super excited and child-like in my joys. I have consciously allowed myself this since my mid 30's (a little over a decade ago), when I realized I was missing out on my excitement, buy stuffing it down.

Other than that I have been very Spock-like in my emotional dealings with others. I have plenty of emotions. However, my upbringing in an emotionally volatile and unsafe environment has taught me that the volatility of emotions is dangerous. Like a good Vulcan I use emotions to inform logic, and rely on the logic in difficult and emotional situations.

This has caused my partner to very often accuse me of being on my "high horse" (well met CatFamiliar!), being condescending, and disrespectful.

(translation = invalidating)

I have struggled with these accusations (which sound condescending and disrespectful to me) and slipped right into JADEing.

Ok, so now I know what I can do to help the situation => validation, SET

But, how do I validate my own concerns/needs to have calm and logical discussions about difficult (or even "easy" topics?

Or, is that a pipe dream with a BPD partner?
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« Reply #26 on: May 03, 2015, 04:11:45 PM »

However, once he painted me black, he became very critical of my emotionality. He said he considered it a sign of weakness. When he raged and accused me of things, I would JADE, which made things worse. Eventually I would break down in despair. To stop the rages I would agree with him, say he was right, everything is my fault. All the while , he stayed calm and collected and used my upset to prove how I was the one with the problem.

Oh Gawd, I SOO know this one. My H used to get angry over nothing and yell at me, then I yelled back (JADEing , of course) and then he became calm, so it was obviously my problem. He used to do this when we went to parties and such, so I would be upset when we arrived and he'd be "together". I stopped biting on those about three years in, and he ended up upset going to parties for a while because he couldn't "get" me. I still don't get that, except that his friends appear to like me better than him.

Excerpt
So, I became stoic in his presence. If I get upset or cry, he gets very stern and aggressive to stop it. He takes any negative emotions as a criticism. He wants the positive ones, not the negative ones, and he wants to be able to turn them on when he wants them and not when he doesn't. Over time, I have toned down my emotions in front of him. Now, he says he misses the affection and all the positive emotions. It's strange- he wants them, but when he gets them, he doesn't want them. I'm affectionate with my kids and other family members, but I don't feel comfortable being the emotional one in this situation.

BBM: I get this, too. Whats with the only positive emotions? We were given all kinds of emotions for a reason. Such a sad situation at times.
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« Reply #27 on: May 03, 2015, 04:21:12 PM »

 Idea I'm beginning to wonder if the non spouses end up being more logical because we are/were trying to show (by logic) that what the BPDs are saying wasn't factually true.

If you had a conversation with a non, and they said something non factual, then you showed them the actual fact, more times than not, they'd just go "Huh. Learn something new every day." where a  pwBPD would completely fly off the handle and accuse you of setting them up or some other such thing. And we keep thinking they JUST DIDN'T UNDERSTAND what we were saying, so JADE some more. JADEing is using the logic circuits: If we could just explain it RIGHT, they'd understand. Since I didn't know about BPD in the beginning, this make so much sense to me.

Then when you add in that the non spouse is not supposed to have their own thoughts, opinions, emotions, only the ones that belong to the pwBPD, the non spouse often just shuts down and becomes "Robot person".
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« Reply #28 on: May 03, 2015, 04:39:53 PM »

OffRoad, that is exactly how I have been getting sucked in for years. "If only I could explain myself better, he would get it and we could move on constructively."

So, getting emotionally charged isn't the answer.

Being super calm and logical isn't the answer.

Validating them is part of the answer.

But... .then where do the needs of the Non fit in?

Are we just there to serve the BPD's needs?
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« Reply #29 on: May 03, 2015, 04:41:00 PM »

But, how do I validate my own concerns/needs to have calm and logical discussions about difficult (or even "easy" topics?

Or, is that a pipe dream with a BPD partner?

I am beginning to think it is a pipe dream. This would be a great topic for a thread. I tried to have a calm and logical discussion with my husband yesterday and was met with stuff like, "why do I even try?" and "what about the last two weeks" and stuff where he was getting emotional and snotty and trying to do everything he could to avoid having a calm and logical discussion.
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« Reply #30 on: May 03, 2015, 04:50:40 PM »

Pipe Dream Thread started. Find it here https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=276272.new#new
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« Reply #31 on: May 03, 2015, 06:56:56 PM »

Other than that I have been very Spock-like in my emotional dealings with others. I have plenty of emotions. However, my upbringing in an emotionally volatile and unsafe environment has taught me that the volatility of emotions is dangerous. Like a good Vulcan I use emotions to inform logic, and rely on the logic in difficult and emotional situations.

It isn't that I am not emotional or don't have them.

There are two people serving life for attempted murder of a police officer (me). After you have had people try to kill you, Wendy's messing up your order seems quite anticlimactic. So, when my wife gets absolutely irate at such simple things, it does not compute with me any more than my not getting upset does with her. We are on opposite sides of the spectrum and it does make life difficult.

Are we just there to serve the BPD's needs?



No. I did that for years to no avail. We as nons have rights, too.

I took a stand a few months ago and put my needs in writing, along with a date of June 1st when I plan to file for divorce if I do not see significant change. Handling a pwBPD with kid gloves and excusing the behavior because they are ill only gives them license to continue. I will say my wife is taking a serious look at how she treats me and has been trying on and off, though I am not holding my breath and will likely be on the "leaving" board a month from now.  
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« Reply #32 on: May 04, 2015, 08:33:34 AM »



Lesson on validation


So... .I've been thinking about things... .I've been chatting with some with some members on here and I want become a more validating person.  Not just to my wife... .but in general.

Sure... .I've played around with validation... .but I still feel very clumsy with it.  I believe I have made great strides in avoiding obvious invalidation.  Basically arguing with my wife that she should see something a different way... .

I read the lesson a couple times this morning... .and I think the first thing I wan to work on... .is being quicker about "finding the validation target".

For instance:  Yesterday my wife calls me on the phone.  She is in a bad cell coverage area... .it becomes obvious she is not hearing me... .I still hear her just fine.  She starts to go off... .to the point of saying ("effe you if you aren't going to talk to me... ." and then hangs up... .she calls me right back.

She asks why I wouldn't talk to her and I reminded her that she was in bad area... .I assured her I heard everything she said... .and that I was trying to talk.  (click... .line drops again)

She calls back... .and asks if I hung up on her and that she needs directions to library.  I said no and explained how to get to library.

So... .on one hand... .I never grumped at her... .and don't think I obviously invalidated her.  However... .I think the "target" was that she was and has been frustrated for a while that I (and many others) aren't listening to her. 

I suspect she doesn't feel heard.

So... .I want to validate that... .I want to be empathetic with the frustration of being ignored... .but I don't want to be on the hook to change my behavior so she "knows" she has been heard.

Her version of my capability to get work done... .and mine are much different. 

So... .should I have tried to keep her on the phone and say something like

"I'm here for you.  I can see how frustrating it is for you to feel like you were not being heard.  The cell service is that area is very poor... .I suspect this will be continued problem for you while driving down there."

Above is an attempt at SET.   If my goal is validation... .did I get that done.  OR  Did I make a point to her that it's not my fault?

Anyway... .my hope is that I can put some examples up here... .and you guys can help me learn to be a better validater.

FF

I think you're on the right track here, the only problem being that the cell service is really bad in that area, so trying to keep her on the phone to validate when the call might be dropped mid-sentence anyway, is defeating the purpose in a sense.

"The cell service stinks!  Totally frustrating!"

Also, she's asking for directions to library, so I'm taking it that she might be lost or turned around, or? 

That would feel pretty unnerving and confusing not being able to find where you're going, then having calls dropped by the one person you trust to help you find your way  

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« Reply #33 on: May 04, 2015, 10:24:31 AM »

Also, she's asking for directions to library, so I'm taking it that she might be lost or turned around, or? 

That would feel pretty unnerving and confusing not being able to find where you're going, then having calls dropped by the one person you trust to help you find your way  

My wife has no sense of direction... .gets lost all the time... .this is normal. 
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« Reply #34 on: May 04, 2015, 10:35:19 AM »

Also, she's asking for directions to library, so I'm taking it that she might be lost or turned around, or? 

That would feel pretty unnerving and confusing not being able to find where you're going, then having calls dropped by the one person you trust to help you find your way  

My wife has no sense of direction... .gets lost all the time... .this is normal. 

Is this something you can accept?
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« Reply #35 on: May 04, 2015, 11:41:45 AM »

 

Yep... .she calls and gets directions quite often.  Used to be more. 

It's just part of her that I accept... .never really been anything bad come of it.

FF
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« Reply #36 on: May 04, 2015, 04:03:59 PM »

Yep... .she calls and gets directions quite often.  Used to be more. 

It's just part of her that I accept... .never really been anything bad come of it.

FF

FF

Glad you are the one with the good sense of direction. Should you have got turned around in your previous work... .near Russian airspace... .it might have caused a little "incident".   
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« Reply #37 on: May 04, 2015, 05:02:11 PM »

FF

Glad you are the one with the good sense of direction. Should you have got turned around in your previous work... .near Russian airspace... .it might have caused a little "incident".   

Hehe... .yeah.

Even when driving... .I look at things... ."like a pilot"... .the way things look from up high. 

Helps me orient myself.

FF
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« Reply #38 on: May 06, 2015, 01:32:27 PM »

I'm late here... .and I think how to validate bad cell reception has been covered very well.

I'd like to point out that being more validating is best used as a strategic move / carpet bombing move, rather than as a tactical targeted move.

If she's feeling upset/invalidated, you may or may not be able to validate her, and it may or may not prevent her from getting more dysregulated. Boundaries are very effective if needed here... .

The other approach is to just be constantly watching for chances to validate her any time of the day, preferably when there isn't any sort of 'issue' showing up.

I'm sure you already notice her moods. Let her know that you care enough to pay attention, and just accept that she is seems to be feeling up, down, busy, tired, or whatever. Be interested in it and curious about it if she wants to share more.

Do it with NO agenda, not trying to convince her anything, no fishing for her to care about your mood/feelings. Just interest in what is going on with this person who is so important in your life.

(Bet it will work really good with your kids too!)
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« Reply #39 on: May 06, 2015, 07:13:21 PM »

 

I've been trying to "carpet bomb" more... .

"how are you doing?"  seems to be a better question than "how are you feeling... ."

I hate guessing at what to validate... .I've guessed wrong before... .and either I was wrong... .or she claimed I was wrong... .and shouldn't have been "guessing".

Who knows... .bad scene at my house today... .I tried to be supportive.  Even though I think she is completely to blame... .I'm going to keep that to myself.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=276436.0

Even if she asks why I don't want another dog... .I'm going with Grey Kitty mantra "Nothing good can come of this... ." if I try to explain how irresponsible she is/was. 

I'll stick with NO... .because I am the one not comfortable with it... .

Sigh... .

FF
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« Reply #40 on: May 06, 2015, 11:23:16 PM »

Yeah, I think "How are you doing?" is better.

When you can see something of her feelings, it may be better to comment on them... ."You look sad." Or "you look like a tigger that lost her bounce" Or something else that she is clearly feeling/expressing.

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« Reply #41 on: May 06, 2015, 11:42:24 PM »

GK's post reminded me of something that I do out of habit. I tend to be a pretty playful person and have been known to insert a bit of humor with stuff like "What's up buttercup?" or "Why the frown Charlie Brown?"

Or, something my kids do to me, which is come up to me at random times and give me a hug and say, "you look like you need a hug". I do stuff like that to them too. I have been known to walk up behind my husband or kids and give them a hug or a kiss and say, "How's it going?"

It is about finding small unobtrusive ways to check in with them through out the day. And I try to make sure I do it when they are happy too. If I can tell that one of them is clearly excited about something, I try to share the excitement with them. I feel like only saying something when they look sad sends the message "I will only notice you when you are sad/mad/upset." which might lead them to subconsciously find reasons to be sad/mad/upset because they know that it will get them attention. Negative attention is better than no attention. :-)
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