It never ends

[Eco]

I guess I need to start recording my daughter to show she isn't broke out in a rash before I bring her back to my ex.

My ex sent me a nasty series of texts this morning saying my daughter was broke out on her stomach and back and that I better not deny it with more of my lies. my ex also threatened me saying "she better not come back looking like this again if you want things to remain pleasant"

I changed my daughters cloths right before I took her back to my ex and there was no sign of a rash. I didn't respond at all to the texts.

Im trying not to engage in her craziness but should I respond or just ignore these type of texts from her? 

[rarsweet]

I would say" I  am unaware of any rash, if you see a rash I suggest bringing her to the doctors, please let me know when you do so I can participate, thank you" that's it.

[livednlearned]

Something else you can do is have some stock responses:

Hi ex,

It sounds like you discovered D has a rash. I'm glad you caught it and are bringing it to my attention. Do you have a proposal for how to treat the rash?

I like how Dr. Childress said in his video that people with BPD don't seem to be able to heal losses or grief, so they dwell on things that are bad, or they dwell on things that other people do wrong (seemingly to them). Once you detach, it gets easier to help move them along to focusing on a solution. How does she propose the two of you help D deal with the rash?  If you tell her what to do, she'll fight the solution. If she is expected to have one, it hopefully gets her brain to focus on figuring it out. In which case, she will probably not respond and drop it, because she may not have one. And it's not what she's irritated about in the first place... .

[Eco]

Ok so now my ex has taken away the extra day she has been giving me during the week. I was getting my daughter on Tuesday from the daycare while my ex was at work and I would bring her back before my ex got to the daycare after she got off work. I have always been at the daycare waiting for my ex to get there from work, well today she said its not working out because I was late the last 2 times.

I have video evidence that I have not been late also the daycare has video of the parking lot to show what time I got there.  when I brought that up that I haven't been late and told her how this was helpful to our daughter getting extra time with me and her brother she said that its actually hurting her and not helping because im taking time away from her and my daughter has become more anxious since we started doing this    

I asked my ex how was I taking time from her if I was getting my daughter while my ex was at work and how does this make my daughter more anxious? if I get my daughter or not she still will be at daycare away from my ex.

I already know what the answer is, my ex is coming unglued right now. I think her relationship to her new man has fallen apart, that and her fear that my daughter may start liking me more then her based on the fact that my daughter quit giving me a hard time going to me and started giving my ex a hard time going to her. In reality my daughter is more then likely just going through a phase and not choosing one parent over the other.

My ex has been doing a good job flying under the radar and not going over the line with anything that would make her look bad in court ,but she is on text caught in a lie about me being late and she is using that as a reason to take time away from me with my daughter that she has given to me for months now. And she did this right after getting mad at me because I wouldn't give my Friday up like she wanted, Its so obvious what she is doing and that she is using our daughter as a tool to get back at me.

Im so angry right now, but im in control and will continue to be civil and not discuss anything in front of my daughter with my ex. I will not fall in the rabbit hole with her, Im just so frustrated and upset that my ex is doing this to a 2 year old.

[momtara]

Sounds like similar patterns to when I first separated from my ex. We have 2 small toddlers and he used to claim one of them was sick when he had her, just to get my attention. At the time, I texted back that if she was sick, he should take her to the doc or bring her home and I would take her. I like the suggested response above about asking how she will handle it and asking what you can do to help. Obviously if she was claiming a more severe illness you'd want to take it seriously just in case. Taking away time or messing with your parenting time sounds familiar too. I can happily report that when it finally came time to negotiate a custody agreement in mediation, he just asked for every other weekend, one overnight. These behaviors started to fade as time went on and I tried to stick to boundaries. It took a while and is still happening but there are definitely fewer extinction bursts and things now. I also contemplated getting a psych eval for him for a while - that's an option.

It's hard with a small child who can't report to you what's going on. Good luck and hang in there!

[bravhart1]

Eco

It's not hard to figure out the "why" of her decision of taking your day back, look at your previous post! You were bonding with your daughter and she wanted to be with you. BPDm didn't like it, and was embarrassed by your daughter "choosing" you over her (in her BPD mind) at the exchange. Therefore you must be a bad dad, for example the "rash" and she must protect your daughter from bad dad and the anxiety it causes your daughter to be with you (replace the word daughter here with BPDm) and it all adds up perfectly.

I don't know your history enough here, but can you reach out to someone like PC or lawyer to see if you can keep the "status quo" of the custody time? I would think the daycare people would support you too if you needed someone to verify you have had her, and have returned her on time etc?

[Eco]

It's not hard to figure out the "why" of her decision of taking your day back, look at your previous post! You were bonding with your daughter and she wanted to be with you. BPDm didn't like it, and was embarrassed by your daughter "choosing" you over her (in her BPD mind) at the exchange. Therefore you must be a bad dad, for example the "rash" and she must protect your daughter from bad dad and the anxiety it causes your daughter to be with you (replace the word daughter here with BPDm) and it all adds up perfectly.

Yeah its pretty easy to spot these days

I don't know your history enough here, but can you reach out to someone like PC or lawyer to see if you can keep the "status quo" of the custody time? I would think the daycare people would support you too if you needed someone to verify you have had her, and have returned her on time etc?

with all the J.A.D.I.N.G. I was doing I totally overlooked one fact, we didn't even have a time set up for me to be back at the daycare. My ex didn't always get off work at the same time so the deal was she would text me when she got off of work and I would go to the daycare, which was less then 5 min away, while it took my ex 10 to 15 min to get to the daycare. that's why I was always at the daycare before my ex, she has really painted herself in a corner with this one. its all documented as well

[enlighten me]

One thing I found with my ex and these situations is not to accept or deny but to offer a solution.

With your daughters rash if you said she didnt have it but maybe my washing powder has caused it. What type do you use and I'll switch to that for her.

This way she feels superior. You defuse the situation and it also shows you have your daughters best interest at heart.

[livednlearned]

One thing I found with my ex and these situations is not to accept or deny but to offer a solution.

With your daughters rash if you said she didnt have it but maybe my washing powder has caused it. What type do you use and I'll switch to that for her.

This way she feels superior. You defuse the situation and it also shows you have your daughters best interest at heart.

This is good advice! When you provide some supply, it has the effect of defusing the escalation (taking away the extra day). I think it took me sometimes half a day just to compose an email message in response, threading the needle of ex's psychology, the situation, and figuring the email would land in court one way or another. I wanted to provide a small amount of supply without detracting from the overall and often serious harm going on with his parenting.

I think when you feel in a position of weakness, this type of thing is hard to do because when we feel helpless, we feel the other person has real authority. It's when we detach and recognize how severe their limitations are that it gets easier to use these skills.

It's like someone hands you a manual and at least half the time you can troubleshoot the problem and get things back on track.

[ForeverDad]

I recall in the first couple years of our separation and divorce process we exchanged at the sheriff's office due to the heightened conflict.  That was for ages 3-5.  At pick ups My son would always come running to me.  At drop offs he would be fussing and squirming to stay with me.  Sometimes I would have to carry him in.  Sometimes she would have to hold him squirming and crying while I left.

What was her response?  "What did you do to him?"   I couldn't reason with her, that it wasn't me, that he didn't want to go back to her, so I didn't even try.

So my advice is to accept that you won't be able to reason with her much of the time.  And when you can reason with her, it may be that (1) she wants something or (2) she isn't currently triggered.  It is a delicate balance, sometimes an impossible one, holding to your boundaries versus not triggering her overmuch.

[livednlearned]

It's not likely that reasoning will work.

I do think that there are communication skills that can minimize conflict and at least increase the probability that we can get the thing done, whatever the thing is. 

[enlighten me]

My secret for dealing with my waif uBPD ex wife and my queen upd exgf is never put them on the defensive. If they have a little rant then either agree then ignore it or add something positive.

Never go there on the offensive. If there's a problem that needs dealing with pitch it in a way that leaves them clear of all blame. Play the long game. Make little changes.

Dont be bull headed. If they want to switch days and it doesnt affect you then do it. Dont say no just to spite them.

You may think they are winning but by being flexible and non confrontational they will be more open to compromise and suggestions.

[livednlearned]

Eco's ex seems to be triggered by feelings of inferiority, so letting her feel superior makes a lot of sense.

And focusing on the long game -- that's the only way I managed to stay sane.

[enlighten me]

PwBPD dont take critisism. They are constantly on guard so anything you can do to bring that guard down is good. Even if they think you are being a push over does it matter. As long as the children arent being affected and your not losing out then so what. My exs might think they walk over me and always get their own way but I never miss out on time with my sons and because im so flexible I even get more as they have so many important things to do. At the endof the day their opinion of me doesnt matter. Im not trying to impress them im just trying to be a dad.

[livednlearned]

This may be something that can work for you, Eco. Your ex is not a waif like enlighten me. She is generally cooperative -- not all pwBPD are like this. Bill Eddy describes three levels of high-conflict personalities:

generally cooperative

uncooperative, not dangerous

uncooperative, dangerous

What do you think about enlighten me's approach? Do you want to try it and see if it works with your ex?

[enlighten me]

Ive already given the washing powder example but here are some others ive used.

Food. My exgf tryiing to get my son only eating certain things. Pick up on something they have said Ie fruit. When food is mentioned drop in how amazed you are at how much they love exs recomendation. Go a little over the top. This inflates their ego. You may have a little put down like well of course he does i started him on a varied diet from the begining. Just let it wash over you. After doing that i never get questioned about food.

Injuries. Always let them know straight away unless its really minor. Something like a cut knee you can say things like"he's so fearless/ quickhow do you keep up with him because im knackered. This praises their physical ability. Be careful not to make yourself look incompitant.

Clothes. If theyre outgrowing their clothes and the ex is not replacing them then by saying 'I cant believe how quick their growing. Were going to have to stop feeding them or else theyll skint us in clothing". This highlights the clothing and if my exs are anything to go by they will buy new clothes.

Just a few more examples.

[Eco]

Thanks everyone for all the effort and time you're giving this to help me its greatly appreciated.

One thing I found with my ex and these situations is not to accept or deny but to offer a solution.

With your daughters rash if you said she didnt have it but maybe my washing powder has caused it. What type do you use and I'll switch to that for her.

This way she feels superior. You defuse the situation and it also shows you have your daughters best interest at heart.

Great advice, the problem is my ex shoots down any solutions I offer, in fact they seem to enrage her further. Its like how dare I offer a solution to something. One example is I offered a solution to go to a specialist for my daughters allergys and my ex replied " DONT YOU THINK I ALREADY DID THAT? YOURE SAYING I CANT TAKE CARE OF MY KIDS!" she stormed off after that. That's how any communication from me goes, my ex feels so superior to everyone that she cant possibly accept advice least of all from me.

I think it took me sometimes half a day just to compose an email message in response, threading the needle of ex's psychology, the situation, and figuring the email would land in court one way or another. I wanted to provide a small amount of supply without detracting from the overall and often serious harm going on with his parenting.

I know the feeling I do that with my texts and emails as well.

So my advice is to accept that you won't be able to reason with her much of the time.  And when you can reason with her, it may be that (1) she wants something or (2) she isn't currently triggered.  It is a delicate balance, sometimes an impossible one, holding to your boundaries versus not triggering her overmuch.

That's exactly what happens its always one of those two reasons usually the first one. really the only purpose for me trying to reason with my ex about my daughter is to have it documented that I am trying to co parent but cant, We will be going back to court and I need as much evidence of what I go through with my ex. Hopefully I will get primary.

My secret for dealing with my waif uBPD ex wife and my queen upd exgf is never put them on the defensive. If they have a little rant then either agree then ignore it or add something positive.

Never go there on the offensive. If there's a problem that needs dealing with pitch it in a way that leaves them clear of all blame. Play the long game. Make little changes.

Dont be bull headed. If they want to switch days and it doesnt affect you then do it. Dont say no just to spite them.

You may think they are winning but by being flexible and non confrontational they will be more open to compromise and suggestions.

That's great advice, I am very laid back and flexible which is part of the reason my ex tries to run me over so much. the problem is things my ex has control over she turns into a nightmare,  she doesn't have control over the court order so those days are never a issue. she tries to make changes with the court order but cant so its not a issue but this extra day she gave me is in her control because it isn't in the court order so as usual its a nightmare.

PwBPD dont take critisism. They are constantly on guard so anything you can do to bring that guard down is good. Even if they think you are being a push over does it matter. As long as the children arent being affected and your not losing out then so what. My exs might think they walk over me and always get their own way but I never miss out on time with my sons and because im so flexible I even get more as they have so many important things to do. At the endof the day their opinion of me doesnt matter. Im not trying to impress them im just trying to be a dad.

I have no problems letting my ex think im a pushover, the problem is my daughter is being affected by this so I have to make a stand for my daughter. If my ex had her way I would never see my daughter unless she allowed me a few hrs here and there when she is in a good mood.

This may be something that can work for you, Eco. Your ex is not a waif like enlighten me. She is generally cooperative -- not all pwBPD are like this. Bill Eddy describes three levels of high-conflict personalities:

generally cooperative

uncooperative, not dangerous

uncooperative, dangerous

What do you think about enlighten me's approach? Do you want to try it and see if it works with your ex?

uncooperative, dangerous is my ex most of the time.  As far as enlighten me approach goes ive tried it before with no luck but its always worth trying again because it is a good way to do things.

Ive accepted the fact that my ex NPD will treat me like crap until she gets help and that may be never so ive made my peace with that and its helped, the part that gets me going is when my ex uses my daughter to get back at me and hurts her in the process. that's the only way my ex can get at me and she knows it

[enlighten me]

I understand the allegy situation. By suggesting seeing an allergy specialist your ex has taken it as a criticism. You have highlighted that she isnt looking after your daughter and probably suggested something she hasnt thought of. She has gone on the defensive and like my exs the best form of defense is attack... .

Its difficult because even mundane comments can be twisted. Ive found that making them think an Idea was theirs works. By saying your updating your daughters medical information and wonder if she had any allergies might have got her to think about allergies and getting her checked. She would feel superior as youve had to ask her.

[livednlearned]

the problem is my ex shoots down any solutions I offer, in fact they seem to enrage her further. Its like how dare I offer a solution to something.

With someone who is very narcissistic, it may work better to ask your ex what solutions she has. Eco, my ex is also uncooperative/dangerous, and the same thing would happen if I proposed a solution. He would shoot it done and call me names, etc. and then I would ask him what he proposed and suddenly things would go quiet. Or his solution would be that I stop living or something equally lovely  

With narcissistic types, if you are the one with the solution, that gives your ex something to undermine.

"Thanks for letting me know about the rash, it's good that you noticed. What do you think is a good way to treat it?"

[Eco]

Or his solution would be that I stop living or something equally lovely  tongue

sounds like my ex exactly

[ForeverDad]

With narcissistic types, if you are the one with the solution, that gives your ex something to undermine.

Offering choices can actually trigger negative overreactions... .

Many pwBPD don't do well with choices, even logical ones, facing choices can trigger massive overreactions.  So I wouldn't bring that up as an option unless or until it seems appropriate.  And even then you might decide to present it as the solution rather than an option and perhaps avoid her spinning out of bounds.

I recall one day years ago, to give an example, at an exchange we were talking about the changes needed for an upcoming exchange.  She was waffling over whether to just let me keep him.  I tried to 'help' by offering a simple list of 2 or 3 choices, all fair or in her favor.  She flamed out and retorted, "Then I just won't exchange him!"  I got the point - at least for her - don't try to help by offering choices, she couldn't handle me offering choices.  I guess she saw it as weak waffling boundaries and that triggered her.  So now I try to keep it as simple as possible, often it's not 'fair' to her but strangely she accepts it.

[livednlearned]

Fair point. Some of this is context, and the degree of high-conflict in the BPD person.

I ended up losing my patience at times and would propose something, and then give N/BPDx until x day/date/time to respond, otherwise I would move ahead with my plan. I also had more leverage in the relationship, and that gave me more confidence to act assertively.

[Eco]

Offering choices can actually trigger negative overreactions... .

Quote from: ForeverDad on November 11, 2014, 02:59:13 PM

Many pwBPD don't do well with choices, even logical ones, facing choices can trigger massive overreactions.  So I wouldn't bring that up as an option unless or until it seems appropriate.  And even then you might decide to present it as the solution rather than an option and perhaps avoid her spinning out of bounds.

Quote from: ForeverDad on July 04, 2014, 12:16:58 PM

I recall one day years ago, to give an example, at an exchange we were talking about the changes needed for an upcoming exchange.  She was waffling over whether to just let me keep him.  I tried to 'help' by offering a simple list of 2 or 3 choices, all fair or in her favor.  She flamed out and retorted, "Then I just won't exchange him!"  I got the point - at least for her - don't try to help by offering choices, she couldn't handle me offering choices.  I guess she saw it as weak waffling boundaries and that triggered her.  So now I try to keep it as simple as possible, often it's not 'fair' to her but strangely she accepts it.

Ive experienced this first hand.

[Eco]

I ended up losing my patience at times and would propose something, and then give N/BPDx until x day/date/time to respond, otherwise I would move ahead with my plan. I also had more leverage in the relationship, and that gave me more confidence to act assertively.

Im hoping to be in that position soon