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Author Topic: Jealously and possessiveness over friends. Help  (Read 1220 times)
paintingitblack

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« on: May 04, 2015, 05:06:33 PM »

Hello all! I am looking for some advice on how to handle my BPD partner. We are both 25-year-old gay males who have been dating for a little over five years.

Recently an issue that has always plagued us to an extent has really hit a fever pitch. I made plans and hung out with one of his good friends. This has really set him over the top, from sadness to anger. He insists that my mind is only on his friend now, and I do not care about him. It was to a point when I was asked to hang out by the aforementioned friend (knowing my bf would react negatively to this interaction) that I felt compelled to either make up an excuse as to why I couldn't, or say I don't think we should because it would be upsetting to my boyfriend. My boyfriend was crying the other night insisting he didn't want to be anybodies second choice seemingly devastated that this completely platonic interaction occurred. What is it about BPD (if this is the BPD talking) that makes him see everything as a competition? Why does he see my interacting with his friend as somehow negating their own relationship? How can he not see his severe possessiveness and jealously (to the point of breakdown) in this situation is irrational and uncalled for?

I feel as if I have been vilified for "encroaching" on his friendship and I want to be there for him but it is difficult without admitting that I am at fault for this occurring. I do NOT feel as if my actions were inappropriate and because of that he thinks I do not care about his feelings. When in fact, I care a TON. I just don't think responding to his irrational behavior by cutting off all contact with his friend would be rational, helpful or fair to anyone in this situation.

Any advice? Was I in the wrong? Where should I go from there?

Honest opinions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

-Nathan
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« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2015, 08:22:26 PM »

 

Nathan,

Is your partner diagnosed?... .in therapy?

Please dig into the lessons on the right side of the screen... .that will help you get on the right track.

The quick version of the answer to your question... .is that you should not change your behavior/decisions... .based on your boyfriends moods and fits.  That is training him to do that... .in order to get what he wants.

How you go about this matters... .that is where the lessons and the  guidance from this site really com in handy.

Tell us more about how you currently handle things... .when your boyfriend does things like this.

FF
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paintingitblack

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« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2015, 08:37:45 PM »

He is NOT currently in therapy. Which is something I think would do him a lot of good. However he is diagnosed.

I am not an expert in dealing with BPD behavior, but I am not a noobie to it either. I am having more difficulty dealing with this issue more than most, and I have guilt for the friend (not knowing about all my BFs BPD behavior or what BPD even is likely even) is now mixed into it. Typically when my boyfriend has similar fits like this I try to rationally tell him why what he is saying is not in line with reality. In this case I pointed out times when he has hung out with my close friends without me, and how I thought it was perfectly acceptable and even a positive thing. I told him that I don't think the majority of people would feel that me hanging out with his friend would be inappropriate, and that he seems very possessive for some reason.

What I typically do when he acts very irrational is I give him his space, tell him I love him but he will have to contact me when he is ready to be more rational on the subject. That usually works, but yet again now I feel guilty for wrapping up someone else in it all. Why is he letting this completely ruin and end what he saw as one of his best friendships? I feel partly to blame but I also DO realize it is my BFs choice to let that happen.
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« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2015, 02:38:04 AM »

Dont know how it works in the gay world, but in a hetrosexual BPD relationships it is often near impossible to have an opposite sex platonic relationship without intense jealousies.

Do you think it is sexuality based or just friendship based? ie would he feel the same if you were talking about a female friend.

Some pwBPD cannot handle their partners having friendships, or even family ties, of any type which have nothing to do with perceived attraction. Just simply vying for priority attention .
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« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2015, 03:05:58 AM »

I do think the fact it is a male friend certainly ramps up the jealously ten fold. It is not a fair standard to have though, when he can befriend other gay males all the time and I am not supposed to (nor do I) react poorly to it when he does.  The "rules"(for lack of a better term) should apply to us both equally should they not?

He gets upset anytime I interact with another gay male, but this time is even worse because it was HIS friend. So I think the jealously is burning at both ends. Jealous of his friend with me, and me with his friend.
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« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2015, 04:16:50 AM »

I am in the same situation as yourself  (Lesbian relationship).  Even if the girl is straight I am also not allowed to connect with them platonically.  And the double standards is so ridiculous.  She is off course free to pursue any other friendship no questions asked.  And yes,  even family members can become an issue. 

My advise would be to not start cutting off friends.  If it is not this friend it will be the next one he will be jealous over.  So where does it end.  So you will have to set boundaries and stick with them.
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« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2015, 05:46:54 AM »

The "rules"(for lack of a better term) should apply to us both equally should they not?

Yes they should. 

Most nons (me included) have tried to "explaint" this to pwBPD... .and failed miserably.

If you want equality... .you will have to enforce it.

My recommendation is that you use this forum to tweak the sentence that you will use to explain this... .once it is tweaked... .use it once... .and then don't participate in conversations about what friends are ok for you to have.

If you decide to start down this road... .very important that you don't turn around.

FF
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« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2015, 05:48:25 AM »

My H doesn't help with the kids much, and he was gone a lot. I ended up socializing mostly with other moms whose friends have kids my age. I wonder if that was a way my H felt more secure- if the kids were with me all the time, how would I meet any men?

Jealousy- huge jealous rages over me seeing some old male friends ( who live out of town) in a group setting with all our spouses and kids along too. Jealous over me saying an actor or musician on TV is attractive. Sometimes he will get it in his head that I am cheating if I come home late, or discuss something that includes a man that I may have met through friends or a group. I've been going to 12 step groups for co-dependency and sometimes he gets worried that I met a man there too.

He knows how to not come off like a jealous jerk all the time though. The outright rages are relatively rare. Rather, ( and I didn't get this over the years) he just made is harder for me to socialize- by not getting home from work so I could not leave the kids, being critical of my friends, being too tired to socialize as a couple- which meant I mostly did things with other women and their kids.

Women? They aren't safe either. He has gotten jealous of time spent with some friends, and I have some friends who are lesbians and he has on occasion asked about that too.

Don't narrow your world. I am rebuilding my friend circle. itgirl is right- if it isn't one friend, it is the next. Also pay attention to the other subtle ways you are being discouraged from having friends.

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« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2015, 06:13:30 AM »

There is no agreeable fairness levels when dealing with pwBPD. Always double standards.

As advised it is important that you don't allow yourself to be isolated. That will mean enforcing your rights and dealing with the inevitable blow ups.

Many here have had long hard battles coming back out of isolation. You end up there before you realize where it is heading. Even if not outright trying to stop you, there can be endless "hurdles" which make you give up trying to maintain contacts
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« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2015, 06:39:36 AM »

Thanks for the input guys. I try to point out his double standards and point out his unhealthy possessiveness. Then he always just says "I get it, you won't have to worry about it anymore I know you think that I am in the wrong" or other things along those lines in a very passive aggressive manner. It has gotten to the point he said I will not have to deal with it anymore because he just won't ever make any friends again, to which i replied I didn't believe that nor did i think it was healthy. I informed him he is worthy of friends.

Over the years I have worked A LOT on my co-dependency so I am really not that upset, just more so frustrated. I know if he broke up with me tomorrow, I would walk away and be fine. I think he knows that too, so the odds of that happening are not very large. I just wish he could see how he is sabotaging his relationship and what he considered one of his best friendships all stemming from me and his friend simply getting Taco Bell together. He insists that I have chosen sides now and no longer care about him by continuing to interact with the friend. Truth is, I care about his feelings A LOT. I want to be there for him but I am long past the point where I will let myself get kicked around or come to his beck and call when he either consciously or subconsciously tries to use his tantrums to emotionally manipulate me. I can only be there for him as much as he allows while still respecting myself. I am finding it difficult to walk that line.
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« Reply #10 on: May 05, 2015, 08:32:24 AM »

Self sabotage, and inability to accept consequences due to their own actions is a big issue. The messenger often gets shot in the process of trying to point this out.

The reaction being extreme black and white, and becoming a bigger drama than the original issue in the first place.

No a lot you can do except what you think is right and leave them to their own consequences. Stay out of the nitty gritty blame game.

If he thinks in black and white then he can't comprehend you would be any different as that is alien to him. Hence the black and white assumptions. he is projecting his reasoning process onto you.
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« Reply #11 on: May 05, 2015, 09:00:31 AM »

I can only be there for him as much as he allows while still respecting myself. I am finding it difficult to walk that line.

Interesting way to put it.

Does that leave you in charge of walking the line... .or is he in charge of the line that you walk... .?

FF
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« Reply #12 on: May 05, 2015, 09:43:54 AM »

I can only be there for him as much as he allows while still respecting myself. I am finding it difficult to walk that line.

Interesting way to put it.

Does that leave you in charge of walking the line... .or is he in charge of the line that you walk... .?

FF

Interesting question actually. I didn't want to further complicate issues in my original post but he was held up at gun point the very same night I hung out with his friend that caused all this jealously. If that did not occur I would be much more willing to leave him be until he started giving me the same respect I give him. However, he has just always been there for me during rough times and I would like to be there for him in the wake of this traumatic event. So the timing couldn't be worse. I feel like I cannot be there for him because both issues are just making him a complete wreck right now. The being robbed at gunpoint being COMPLETELY understandable to be a wreck about. Yet it is hard for me to be there for him about THAT issue when he is so irrationally upset/angry for me hanging out with a friend.
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« Reply #13 on: May 05, 2015, 10:23:51 AM »

That would be a traumatic event ( the robbery) for anyone. That, on top of the jealousy is probably making it all worse for him right now. You are a kind soul to be there for him, and hopefully if things calm down, you can make a clearer decision about what you want to do. Keep in mind, the calm is about you, not him. He may always have something to be upset about. Calm being are you acting according to your values? I understand that it could bother you to leave a friend in this situation.

I think if the denial is so strong, one of the problems is that they can not see the destructiveness of their behavior. I think all of us have experienced jealousy from time to time, but hopefully we consider the facts as well. It would make sense for someone to be upset about actual cheating, but it gets destructive when it is imaginary and implausible.

I was recently able to meet up with some old childhood friends who I have not seen in ages. I was very excited to meet their wives and children. The sad part for me is that my H interpreted my joy over seeing old friends as something to be jealous about. I still enjoyed seeing them, but his hissy fits put a damper on the occasion. What my H didn't see at the time was that this had no effect on my feelings for my friends, but it did affect how I felt bringing him along. It also made me think of how many times I didn't make the effort to see friends because of all the effort it would take to include him, or how hard it would be to go on my own. Now, I would go.

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« Reply #14 on: May 05, 2015, 10:30:32 AM »

  Yet it is hard for me to be there for him about THAT issue when he is so irrationally upset/angry for me hanging out with a friend.

How so?


Put the ball in his court... .so to speak.

Be free... .empathetic... .supporting... .loving... .etc etc... .anytime he wants to discuss being held up.

Anytime he wants to discuss controlling your relationships... .complaining about them. 

(you) "I'm to upset to discuss that right now... ."

If he continues... .leave.  Hopefully you can say... ."I'm too upset and need a break... .I'll be back in 10 minutes... ."

Keep repeating this... .but make the breaks longer if he keeps insisting.

Do you think you can pull something like this off.

Alternatively... .if you really think he needs support... .and you can get over the control issue for now... .drop it and support your partner.

But... .you really have to drop it.  And you don't want to suggest to him that controlling you is ok.  So... .this is tricky.

Bottom line... .this is big issue for you... .and you need to decide if it is worth action... .if so... .get on that side of road.

If it's not worth action... .even "for now"... .  Get on other side of road.

What happens to guys that hang out in middle of road for long time... .  

FF

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« Reply #15 on: May 05, 2015, 10:38:36 AM »

What I have been doing is letting him know if he needs anything to just call me and I'll be there. He seems to want to just let this blow over, but I don't think that is good enough for me. Agreeing to disagree isn't always a bad thing in relationships (in fact it can be healthy) but this would just seem like something that would pop up again in not too long of time with someone else. Yet due to recent events I would be willing to put the issue on the back burner for the time being if he would allow it. Prioritize what is important. However he is so upset/angry in tears about the situation (with his friend) he is the one who is not able to drop it.  If he knows I am hanging out again with the friend in question (which I plan to do at some point) it sets him off all over again in thinking I just care about this friend now and not him. I will not apologize for an action I do not feel is wrong. Even though he says "the fact you continue to hang out with him tells me a lot about where you stand and what regard you have for my feelings". I refuse to be emotionally maniputlated.

Consequently, he is refusing to talk to his friend about the situation at hand, who he has now split and cut off contact with. I believe this may be due to the fact on some level (whether conscious or subconscious) he knows with all the facts on the table that his demeanor about the situation is not defensible. So he would rather just cut and run than try to explain himself and end up sounding jealous and possessive. That is speculative but I believe it to be true.
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« Reply #16 on: May 05, 2015, 12:42:43 PM »

  Agreeing to disagree isn't always a bad thing in relationships (in fact it can be healthy) but this would just seem like something that would pop up again in not too long of time with someone else.

Solid statement.

So... .what would success look like.  If you don't want to agree to disagree... .what would you suggest?


Yet due to recent events I would be willing to put the issue on the back burner for the time being if he would allow it.

Why would he allow it... .or not?  Isn't it your decision which burner to put it on?

  I refuse to be emotionally maniputlated.

Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

Solid!


Consequently, he is refusing to talk to his friend about the situation at hand, who he has now split and cut off contact with. I believe this may be due to the fact on some level (whether conscious or subconscious) he knows with all the facts on the table that his demeanor about the situation is not defensible. So he would rather just cut and run than try to explain himself and end up sounding jealous and possessive. That is speculative but I believe it to be true.

That's a pretty good theory... .but... .does it matter what his reasons/thinking really are?

FF
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« Reply #17 on: May 05, 2015, 01:17:34 PM »

My guess is that this will settle down, and when it does, your boyfriend will behave as if it didn't happen or that it was not a big deal. If you try to bring it up, he will likely play it down. The people with BPD in my life do that. Once they decide they are over it ,the expectation is that the incident is erased, like a dry erase board, and you continue as if it never happened. There is usually no discussion or accountability of the incident.

IMHO, when they are dysregulated, they are overcome with the brain transmitters of being angry and hypearrousal. Once it is over there is some awareness that they behaved badly. Since they tend to have so much shame, the way they cope with it is to compartmentalize it- that was not really them, and go on as if it never happened. They expect others to do the same.

Only it did happen, which leaves the non thinking "what the heck" but there is little choice but to go along with the person with BPD because, there is no going back, no resolution, and no apology.

For my H, he eventually came to his senses that the family style encounter with old friends was not romantic in any way, and at some level, I think he sees where his behavior was not appropriate. If I were to bring it up, he would counter it with " see, I am nice to your friends now" and that is all that is left, not the time he spent raging at me. I didn't make the connection with BPD back then, and I was JADEing, but if I think back on what he was accusing me of, it is just not true.

My mom does this too. She was angry about something and decided to punish us by not sending anything to the kids for holidays or birthdays. I said "fine mom, we are happy with a card if you want to send it". We don't expect gifts.  Then the holidays came around and she called wanting to know what they wanted for presents, like nothing happened.

I don't pay much attention to the rages anymore, or the accusations if they are just not true. You know that hanging out with a friend is not doing anything wrong, so be true to your own ethical standards. You can't control what your boyfriend thinks.
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« Reply #18 on: May 05, 2015, 06:29:20 PM »

My guess is that this will settle down, and when it does, your boyfriend will behave as if it didn't happen or that it was not a big deal. If you try to bring it up, he will likely play it down. The people with BPD in my life do that. Once they decide they are over it ,the expectation is that the incident is erased, like a dry erase board, and you continue as if it never happened. There is usually no discussion or accountability of the incident.

It goes into quarantine and anyone who brings it up is immediately painted as a persecutor who bears grudges. This invalidates anyone who has been affected as they are not being given time to heal from it. No one else can march to the beat of a pwBPDs drum. Thats why they end up alone and abandoned with only an ever changing list of temporary rescuers who out of a misguided sense of care keep validating the victim mentality.

It takes a strong person to stay with a pwBPD and not get drawn into rescuer mode, but that is what they truly need.

Neither can they march to the beat of our drum, expecting them to do so will lead to chaos.
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« Reply #19 on: May 05, 2015, 11:07:23 PM »

So he wanted to talk today. Bawling his eyes out he accused me of being jealous of his friends, that is why I encroach on his friendships. He made it seem like I preyed upon his friends and they didn't approach me of their own free will. One valid point he did have is that I have been guilty of lying by omission and small white lies in fear of how he may responsd. For example, how long I hung out with the person, or what we did in entirety. I do realize that me lying is not fair to myself or him. Walking on eggshells isn't a solution and there is no excuse for me lying. Even if the lies are small and meant to avoid further escalation of conflict. I apologized for that. However now he wants to dismiss every word I said because I "can't be trusted" after the lies and the fact I feel like I have to lie to him makes him feel the lowest he has ever felt. Overall I am glad the conversation took place, I wasn't rude but didn't hold back truths. I believe I was able to pull back and look at myself objectively however I don't think he did the same. In the midst of tears he straight up said "why are you taking him from me?" and kept asking "why him? why him?". I repeated those words back to him after he calmed down to see if he could see how unhealthy it seemed. He didn't say anything back but also did not concede the point. I just hope maybe something got through to him.
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« Reply #20 on: May 06, 2015, 05:47:36 AM »

So he wanted to talk today. Bawling his eyes out he accused me of being jealous of his friends, that is why I encroach on his friendships.

This would have been big issue for me... .it's triggering for my wife to accuse me of feeling a certain way.  Especially when she is wrong.

I've taken the tactic of asking her if she is asking about my feelings when she says stuff like this.  If she persists with her line of thought... .that is invalidating to me.  I leave the conversation.

How did it make you feel to hear that you had thoughts... .feelings... .that you didn't have?


  One valid point he did have is that I have been guilty of lying by omission and small white lies in fear of how he may responsd. For example, how long I hung out with the person, or what we did in entirety. I do realize that me lying is not fair to myself or him.

Lying by omission?  It is your experience... .your truth... .why is he entitled to be part of it? 

What do you think you can say next time he asks for information you don't want to tell him... .or don't feel he has a right to know?


IMO... .he was trying to manipulate you into dropping this guy.  Very important (as others have said) that you do NOT let him (or anyone) isolate you.

FF
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« Reply #21 on: May 06, 2015, 05:52:19 AM »

Bawling his eyes out he accused me of being jealous of his friends, that is why I encroach on his friendships.


Projection?

Then, he blamed you for something "lying by omission".  And you apologized. Nothing wrong with this.

However, do you see a pattern? Projection, blame you.

This may be how your boyfriend sees this. You can listen, be empathetic, but you can also keep your own perspective. It must really feel hurtful to him to think you are encroaching on his friend, but this doesn't mean you intentionally hurt his feelings.

In a similar sense, it is sad that seeing a guy I grew up with resulted in pain for my H, but the truth is, my happiness at seeing an old friend was not intentionally hurtful or in any sense a betrayal of my relationship. I can be empathetic, but I can not control or change how anyone else chooses to see this situation. I just have to hold on to my own truth: I saw an old friend, nothing more.

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« Reply #22 on: May 06, 2015, 08:57:06 AM »

One valid point he did have is that I have been guilty of lying by omission and small white lies in fear of how he may responsd. For example, how long I hung out with the person, or what we did in entirety. I do realize that me lying is not fair to myself or him. Walking on eggshells isn't a solution and there is no excuse for me lying. Even if the lies are small and meant to avoid further escalation of conflict. I apologized for that. However now he wants to dismiss every word I said because I "can't be trusted" after the lies and the fact I feel like I have to lie to him makes him feel the lowest he has ever felt.

This is a consequence of the pressure he puts you under, you are not totally responsible for that, Total honesty is not possible with someone who cannot accept honesty. It is a lose/lose situation, so be careful about carrying guilt over it.

Learning to block and not interact with "interrogations" is also a boundary you may wish to explore on the principle of you do not want to be made to feel guilty and have to explain details of everything you do. It is often an attempt to push you into JADE where you rapidly start to move off the moral high ground into weaker justifications, and the conflict seems to go off on a tangent
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« Reply #23 on: May 06, 2015, 09:30:47 AM »

This is a tactic my H does- finds somewhere in the conflict where I was at minor fault and make the focus of the conflict on that. In the case where he got mad about my friend, he made a point that I " didn't give him enough notice" for the visit, and ran with that one. Often he makes the case for " I didn't give him enough detail, time, ask him correctly, say it clearly... ."

I used to JADE, and this took the conversation off to that tangent. My H is very clever at derailing the conversation if it involves something that may involve him being accountable... .I can ask him something serious and he will bring up something unrelated.



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« Reply #24 on: May 06, 2015, 03:21:18 PM »

I just think it is important for us nons to look at ourselves critically and objectively in these type situations. I'm not sure I agree with the sentiment "total honesty is not possible with someone who cannot accept honesty". I think everyone involved deserves total honesty. It doesn't mean my boyfriend will handle the honesty well, but I shouldn't let HIS behavior/reaction dictate whether or not I tell the truth. The truth sets you free type deal. He might not like what I said or did... .but at least he can't rationally accuse me of holding back or withholding information. After he knows the truth, it is up to him to deal with it. When I hold information back it can come off like I am trying to hide something because I think I am in the wrong on some level. I think in these type of situations although the person with BPD may not see things realistically no matter what, it is up to the non to be the steady hand and take the high ground.

I see any sort of lying or omission as letting THEIR behavior dictate mine. If I don't think something is any of his business or concern, I can simply tell him that and that is my right. However lying is wrong and I don't think I should be excused for it. Doesn't make me wrong with 98% of the other things I said... .but wrong is wrong and right is right. My two cents.
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« Reply #25 on: May 06, 2015, 07:21:12 PM »

  I'm not sure I agree with the sentiment "total honesty is not possible with someone who cannot accept honesty". I think everyone involved deserves total honesty. 

I'm not saying you are wrong... .sometimes I come across a bit blunt... .strong... .when my intention is to be clear about my position.  Just so you know... .this is a IMO kinda thing... . 

BPD seems to be a disorder that is all about inappropriateness of crossing boundaries... .getting into other peoples business in a way nobody ever should... .or in a way people RARELY should. 

To me... .that seems to be a bigger marker of the disorder that "inability to handle the truth".   

Plus... .IMO... .truth has a lot of "point of view" to it.  Especially when the truth is about "how long is too long" to hang out with someone... .and that kinda thing.

So... .what I hope you consider... .and this is not just for your BPD partner.  Not everyone deserves the truth about all matters.

Yes... .a romantic partner should have a little bit more "info" or encroachment into your boundaries that a random person... .or even a good friend... .but still there should be boundaries.

My thought is that if you try to give everyone... .or even just your SO "total honestly"... .that could lead to "enmeshment". 

pwBPD tend to like r/s situations with lots of enmeshment.  The nons that are involved with them tend to end up "enmeshed" without realizing it... .and then one day look around and go... ."what the heck... ."

At least... .that is my experience... .and I've read many others the same way.

I'll hush for now.

Thoughts?

FF

Again... .friendly debate... .Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)  Smiling (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #26 on: May 06, 2015, 10:51:35 PM »

This is a great thread.  I have had uBPD ex's get very jealous of my close friendships, doing what ever possible to isolate me.  And as I have stated on other threads, I have many undiagnosed people with personality disorders who are close friends- funny, they don't like each other at all.  They all have something bad to say about each other.  What drama.  I am watching a particularly interesting exchange between a few friends right now, one (who is very high functioning) of which had painted me black (or at least dark gray).  Now that there is hella discord within this circle, all of a sudden I am missed tremendously.  Being loved again, and getting little gifts. Until I unknowingly do something else that slights this person. Sigh.   I was reading on another thread somewhere the difference between engage/rage and watch/wait (or something like that).  I have chosen to step back and watch what is going on, waiting for a time when I can relate to this friend.  I find it exhausting.  The idea of approaching these relationships with "total honesty" sounds like way too much work.  I am rather limiting in which capacities I relate with many of my friends, small doses. 
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« Reply #27 on: May 06, 2015, 11:26:14 PM »

I certainly agree with two of your points. That there is a lot of perspective when it comes to truth. Such as how long is too long to see someone etc. I also agree that just because you're dating (or married to) someone doesn't mean they are entitled to know every single thing about you and what you're doing. However the best way to handle this is to say "I don't think you need to know that information" instead of lying about what occurred. Sure I think it is fair that they know generally what you're doing or even who you were with but exact details of conversations had or an inteniary of what was done and when is certainly crossing a line. Trust me a BPD likely won't handle hearing that very well but it is certainly a better route to go than lying IMHO. To me the biggest thing here I think is the rules should apply to both parties equally. When they don't, that is a big problem and I must stand up for myself. Be the steady level headed one. Don't stoop to their level of lying or making rash generalizations. When you have nothing to hide the truth is always the best option I feel.
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« Reply #28 on: May 07, 2015, 01:35:43 AM »

pwBPD can push you into hiding stuff simply because they will interrogate you past the point were regular people would stop. They want to find you hiding stuff.

eg you go shopping, they ask you what you bought, so you name off a few things. Later that day they see you eating something that wasn't on the list of things you mentioned, so you are accused of hiding it for some perceived reason.

it could have been of zero importance, but the point is they wanted to finger you for hiding things, so they keep looking until they find something. So you need to decide what is on the need to know list, otherwise you will find yourself over explaining every move you make, and it will still never be "honest" enough.

They can make you feel guilty in hindsight over the tiniest omission if you truly believe that you dont have the right to limit the amount of information you hand out.

It is a form of neediness, and neediness can't be sated.

It is not about the issue it is about their feeling of suspicion. This is how they express it. Trying to counter that with facts effectively invalidates their feeling rather than reassures them.

Agree actively lying will always undo you and make you feel lessor.

Rules are pointless if they can't be enforced. Compliance requires accountability and responsibility, both qualities are often lacking in pwBPD
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« Reply #29 on: May 07, 2015, 06:02:40 AM »

Paintingitblack- I agree with you and I think hanging on to our own integrity is important. If we lie to deal with the pwBPD then we are compromising who we are.

However, I also agree with waverider that we need to be aware that our SO is likely to be playing by different rules. I don't think these rules are necessarily based on them choosing to be dishonest. I think they are based on their fears- fears that we might see that sad scared inside of them. Not knowing who they are. They can tell us what they want us to think, and they can omit.

My H isn't an outright liar. He considers himself to be an honest person, and he is. However, he omits information. . He is secretive by nature, but he rarely has done something really damaging. I on the other hand, chose honesty but I got upset when he didn't quite do the same. I realized that I can have this expectation of myself, but not him. Yet, I can trust him with the basics, and that is important. He would not do anything that would really be damaging to the family. Yet, his omissions keep him in a position of separateness.

My mother lies. Again, she has her limits. I trust that she would not do something major. However, she tells me what she thinks I need to hear and sometimes it is a story.

I laughed at Waverider's interrogation example. I think some of this is projection. Since they omit things, they assume we do. Then they accuse us of it. My mom will get an idea in her head and interrogate me to find evidence of it. It can be frustrating because I often don't know what she is thinking that she is trying to prove. That, she won't tell me or ask me. So she will interrogate me with round and round questions until I say what she wants to hear. I can tell because there is a "gotcha" pause when that happens.

There was one time she called me when I was driving to ask me something. I honestly didn't know the answer, and since I was driving, I told her I would look it up when I got home. That was enough to convince her that I was hiding something from her. Once I was late from a 12 step meeting and my H started asking me some weird questions. I had stopped to talk to another group member for a few minutes and the weather was bad, but he kept asking. It dawned on me that he had thought I had met some man at the meeting. Once he thought that, every answer was insufficient.

I decided that I have to keep my own integrity and not lie. However, sometimes, out of exhaustion and not wanting to deal with it, I have avoided topics or given short, brief answers, or lies of omission. I feel bad about it when I do, but sometimes I just don't want to get into it, especially at times when long honest explanations run into JADE. In the end though, I don't want to have something to hide, so I make every effort to live with integrity. If I haven't done what they accuse me of, then no amount of questioning or their imagination can change that.

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« Reply #30 on: May 07, 2015, 06:48:17 AM »

I laughed at Waverider's interrogation example. I think some of this is projection. Since they omit things, they assume we do. Then they accuse us of it. My mom will get an idea in her head and interrogate me to find evidence of it. It can be frustrating because I often don't know what she is thinking that she is trying to prove. That, she won't tell me or ask me. So she will interrogate me with round and round questions until I say what she wants to hear. I can tell because there is a "gotcha" pause when that happens.

It's also part because complete honesty to them will make them vulnerable so it goes against survival instincts. Hence complete honesty in everything is an alien concept. This leads to lack of belief in complete honesty in others. It is hard to have faith in something that feels unnatural to them, they struggle to believe anyone can be totally honest.

To believe it means they are lessor, so they want to level you back to what they know and are familiar with. If you are to be set up as whiter than white that has to be their choice not yours. This is why sometimes while they question you they can proclaim someone else as being righteous, when it is obvious that is not the case. Leaving you feeling betrayed
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« Reply #31 on: May 07, 2015, 07:19:28 AM »

  Leaving you feeling betrayed

This feeling used to get me in trouble a lot.  I was very effective at proving myself to be a good husband... .and proving myself innocent.  This was pre BPD knowledge and before I knew about bpdfamily.

What I thought was a good thing... .was damaging and pushing my r/s to a bad place. 

The feeling of betrayal... .and other feelings a non has... .will have to be dealt with by the non.  On occasion my wife is able to give some emotional support... .but that is rare. 

I try to enjoy it when it is there... .and find other outlets for my feelings... .issues... .when my wife is not able to support.

FF
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« Reply #32 on: May 07, 2015, 07:24:12 AM »

Yes, well said Waverider.

I also think they feel betrayed. This is a common theme for my H- feeling betrayed. He can decide that something I have done is betraying him. It could be a simple thing that I forgot, and yet, I have betrayed him.

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« Reply #33 on: May 07, 2015, 07:55:13 AM »

Weird, I just spoke to a friend of my H. H had been on a business trip. This person told me that my H told him all about the trip and that he had a great time. Nothing that isn't something I should not know. Just that my H didn't tell me any of it.

This isn't lying or betrayal, but I know that my H is at his most vulnerable with me. He has to keep a sort of barrier up with me to protect himself. If I were to say anything about it to him, it would likely result in a string of accusations " well you didn't tell me this, you don't tell me that, you talk to other people more than me". Which is actually true. It isn't easy for communication to flow one way. I tend to talk to people who share things back.

Also, one reason he doesn't tell me is that he had a good time. He feels some shame about leaving me and having fun without me. He doesn't like it if I were to do that. So, he would not want me to know that he had a good time.



I don't feel betrayed by this like I used to. I have come to accept that my r/s has good aspects and also limitations. I used to be jealous of my H's friends, since he seemed more relaxed and open with his friends at times than with me. I have come to accept that having this distance is what he does to protect himself. Ironically, I now do the same, but I didn't set out for it to be this way.

I think this makes his jealousy of my friends make sense in a way. When I do see a childhood friend, I am very relaxed because we have years of trust built between us. There isn't anything to hide from someone who has known me almost my whole life- they know a whole lot about me. But I am not intimate with them like I am with my H. Intimate relationships are harder.
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« Reply #34 on: May 08, 2015, 08:05:11 AM »

I also think they feel betrayed. This is a common theme for my H- feeling betrayed. He can decide that something I have done is betraying him. It could be a simple thing that I forgot, and yet, I have betrayed him.

Betrayal with a side of protecting themselves... .My uBPDw is self-aware enough that she realizes she's protecting herself from the betrayal/embarrassment if I live up to her poor expectations.
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« Reply #35 on: May 08, 2015, 08:17:56 AM »

Learning to block and not interact with "interrogations" is also a boundary you may wish to explore on the principle of you do not want to be made to feel guilty and have to explain details of everything you do. It is often an attempt to push you into JADE where you rapidly start to move off the moral high ground into weaker justifications, and the conflict seems to go off on a tangent

OK, if there's one issue that keeps me reading these boards this is it.  

My uBPDw is a master interrogator... .Just like the old WWII movies ("What's your name?  How can just telling me your name hurt anyone?  We're just two people here talking and I'd like to address you by your name... .it's not like you're telling me your country's invasion plans... .", "My name's John", "There, that wasn't so hard... .nice to meet you John"... .)

Brief background, I work in a small office.  Most days me and another woman.  w is stay at home mom.  Even though she's home all day every day if I'm in the office by myself she gets anxious.

So when I get up in the morning and w asks, "Is D going to be in the office today?".  It's just like "What's your name" in the WWII movies.  I know where it's probably going, but what w shouldn't be able to ask the question & get an answer?  But an answer to that just leads to the next question, and the next, and the next.  Each one incrementally more "interrogation-like".

What kind of boundary allows normal marital conversations without submitting to Joe Friday type interrogations?

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« Reply #36 on: May 08, 2015, 08:43:24 AM »

What kind of boundary allows normal marital conversations without submitting to Joe Friday type interrogations?

"I don't know... ."... .or "I haven't considered it... ."


Would be a great answer.

And... .unless you and your office person text/communicate as soon as you wake up... .it is a truthful answer... .

If you make something up... .very likely you will get busted for lying.  They are very... .VERY... .perceptive.\

Plus... .here is the boundary that most nons need to get in your head... .

IMO... .people that are in a r/s do not have a "right" to unlimited questions and answers... .

So... .if you know the pattern... .and the pattern is destructive... .don't do the pattern any more.

This doesn't guarantee a better result... .but it does guarantee that you won't repeat the same mistakes.

Thoughts?

FF

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« Reply #37 on: May 08, 2015, 08:49:08 AM »

My mom does that. Sometimes she sneaks the question into another part of the conversation. Then there is that "gotcha" moment. If she can't get it from me, she will try something else. I posted earlier about the time my mom asked me a question on the phone and I was in the car. I didn't know the answer and told her I would look it up when I got home. At that point she assumed I was hiding it on purpose and the interrogation started, but I didn't know the answer, honestly, I didn't know. Then, I found out later that she called someone else for it.

One thing to keep in mind that I think the questioning is driven by anxiety, as well as the need to know, but the anxiety belongs to them and I don't think we can necessarily help that. My strong guess is that your wife is afraid something will/is going on between you and your co-worker and there may not be much you can do to change that fear. The constant questioning comes from that fear-either to reassure herself or to catch you in a conflicting statement and "confirm" her suspicion.

I think for nons, we ask a question because we want to know the answer, not for another motive. Questions really set my H off. He sees them as some kind of attack, or he suspects that I am up to something. However, I am a straightforward person- I ask because I want to know an answer. However, if I do ask him something, it is not likely that he will give me a straightforward answer.



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« Reply #38 on: May 08, 2015, 09:53:21 AM »

My strong guess is that your wife is afraid something will/is going on between you and your co-worker and there may not be much you can do to change that fear. The constant questioning comes from that fear-either to reassure herself or to catch you in a conflicting statement and "confirm" her suspicion.

I think for nons, we ask a question because we want to know the answer, not for another motive. Questions really set my H off. He sees them as some kind of attack, or he suspects that I am up to something. However, I am a straightforward person- I ask because I want to know an answer. However, if I do ask him something, it is not likely that he will give me a straightforward answer.

Just for clarification, the co-worker is gay so the anxiety isn't because something might happen between me and her, but if she's gone and I have the office all to myself... .(which brings up the double standard, because my w has the house to herself every day.)

Your second point is right on, we certainly view questions differently... .and talking in general... .it seems there's no difference between agreeing and understanding.  So many conversations involve her re-explaining her view to me because in her mind I don't understand it (in my mind, I understand it, just don't agree with it... .)
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« Reply #39 on: May 08, 2015, 01:03:35 PM »

I wonder why it bothers her if you have a place to yourself.

Does she think maybe you go there on purpose to get away from her?

Think that maybe you are up to something?

One thing to consider is projection- she might be accusing you of something she is thinking about or doing. I have no idea what that is. Maybe she is doing something- watching TV, calling friends, something that she feels bad about ( "I should be working" or something, I have no idea and it would be impossible to know.

It may not be something she is actually doing but something she fears. My H sometimes shows up unexpectedly at the house. I sometimes think he is trying to "catch" me with a boyfriend. There is no boyfriend. I don't think my H is cheating at the moment, and not sure he has. There was once a co-worker who was inappropriate with him. Not sure how far this went. I haven't cheated, but sometimes he gets this fear and it isn't based on anything either of us has done.

Sometimes my mom will get some idea and I have no idea why.

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« Reply #40 on: May 08, 2015, 01:27:23 PM »

I wonder why it bothers her if you have a place to yourself.

Does she think maybe you go there on purpose to get away from her?

Think that maybe you are up to something?

It may not be something she is actually doing but something she fears. My H sometimes shows up unexpectedly at the house. I sometimes think he is trying to "catch" me with a boyfriend.

I think this is a big part of it... .She came for lunch once and while we were at her car a female walked into the building.  I could watch her eyes as she followed her into the building (which was to my back, so I didn't see her) and asked her "What".  She replied that she wondered why the woman "looked like she wanted to say Hi"  I've lost track of the number of times she's brought it up as "evidence".

And ya know there was the time a female called the house asking for me but then wouldn't leave a message.  I'm amazed at the amount of information she has on that woman. 

However will she actually do something that would give her a definitive answer?  Of course not.  I've told her to have her brother call the phone number, ask for the woman and say he's me to see what she wanted... .Unfortunately she's smart enough to know her brother would tell her she's a nut... .
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« Reply #41 on: May 08, 2015, 02:03:53 PM »

I guess the basic boundary I have (and sometimes it can be blurred) is to explain my point of view but do so in a short and concise manner. I do not think it is wrong, and I actually find personal satisfaction in pointing out my BPD bf's hypocritical behavior when he is angry over an issue like this. It may not get through to him, but when I leave him without a response back I know in some way that is him admitting he is wrong without ACTUALLY admitting it. I do realize saying my point of view calmly can quickly turn into JADE however. I feel just because our loved ones have BPD doesn't mean you should not explain your viewpoint or even discuss it when they are upset. Occasionally my BPD bf will even bring up a logical point in discussion (rare when he is in one of these moods... .but even a broken clock is right twice a day). However when you know you're justified and they're being irrational I try to always remember to stand my ground. Don't apologize when you don't need to, or apologize for things you said later on after the "storm" calms down if you meant them at the time.

Walking that line between rational conversation between two adults and JADE is one I struggle with. I need to learn to simply say my viewpoint once, then let that be that. Way too often I end up beating a dead horse. I just implore all of us non's to look at ourselves equally as critically as we do our BPD partners. We are responsible for our own choices. I know many of us are MAJORLY co-dependent and that makes us just as sick as they are. That might be tough to hear, but I believe it to be true.
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« Reply #42 on: May 08, 2015, 03:18:42 PM »

"I feel just because our loved ones have BPD doesn't mean you should not explain your viewpoint or even discuss it when they are upset."

I have no argument with your statement that many of us are co-dependent and as mentally not healthy as the person we are with. It isn't easy to hear, but I am grateful that our marital T sent me into 12 step co-dependency groups.

It's a fine line to walk between being enabling, and dishonest, and not being co-dependent, authentic and who we are. I agree that we need to be able to voice our reality, and we should not bend it for the pw BPD or anyone.

However, when dealing with someone with BPD, we should also keep in mind the function of projection, denial and dissociation. These are the heart of the problem. When the pwBPD is in a state of dissociation, they are in a way, out of their bodies, or at least their mind. They can't hear it, and they can't process it. This does not mean you don't state your truth, but for your statement to be effective, it is better said when they are not upset.

Sometimes, all we can do during the upset times is to not add fuel to the fire, wait until things are settled. I have been able to get my points across to both my H and my mother, when I wait for these moments. Then, if they seem to be triggered, I have to let them settle down.

We are dealing with a person with a mental illness or at least traits. This doesn't mean they are not accountable, and that we have to coddle them, or shield them from our truth, but if we want them to actually hear it, we can consider the timing of it, and how it is communicated.
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« Reply #43 on: May 08, 2015, 05:10:29 PM »

I just wanted to give some input from another point of view, a relationship without sex... .  I am female and my BFF is female.  I believe she has BPD, but is not diagnosed although she is in therapy for depression, anxiety, and I believe PTSD as well.

I just started noticing her jealousy in a few recent incidents.  After one of her devaluation episodes during which she pushed me a way for a few weeks and yelled awful things at me over the phone she apologized and ended the discussion saying that when we saw each other next we should greet one another with a hug.  I explained how that made me nervous as sometimes over the last month (even before the devaluation) I'd go to hug her and she'd reject me, sometimes getting angry.  She explained she would not any longer and that she would accept my hug willingly.  I showed up to our shared barn and got out of my car, she was walking up smiling, but had her hands full with one horse lead in each.  I said hi and we exchanged a few words while she walked to put the horses away.  I assessed the situation and thought I'll wait until she's done with the horses for the hug, as her hands are full and in the past when I interrupt her working she gets enraged.  So when she disappeared behind the horses I walked around the opposite side of the barn to say hello to the other employees & volunteers.  One of which BFF cannot stand, but I have separated my relationships from hers so just because she stops talking to someone or hates them doesn't mean I have to, so I say hi to everyone and treat them kindly. 

I walked around the other side of the barn to greet BFF with her hug and had an employee with me (one she does like).  We found BFF in a stall furious as she inspected the job the stall cleaners had done, which she said was awful.  Employee and I were exchanging glances and preparing ourselves to run the other direction (common for EVERYONE when she gets angry).  So as BFF stormed off to confront the stall cleaners, the employee and I start walking away quickly (at that point I abandoned the hug as she was enraged so I saw no point).  As I stooped to pick up a piece of trash the employee and I paused as BFF yelled, "By the way HI!  I was only in that stall checking their work because you went and said HI to everyone but me, you didn't even give me a hug."  I tried saying how I was just about to do that before her blow up and when I first arrived I said hi, but thought I should save the hug for after she put the horses away when her hands weren't full.  She cut me off and yelled over her shoulder, "I hope you're happy!"  Employee and I ducked into the office out of earshot of the yelling and I did a reality check with her.  "You just heard that right?  Did it seem odd to you?  She's jealous because I didn't say hi properly fast enough?"  She agreed it was strange... .

After the stall clearers had enough of an earful and drove off, I decided I should check on her even though the employee looked at me like I was crazy!  So I go to say hello and her response was, "Some best f**king friend you are!  I was all happy we settled things and I was in such a good mood to see you and you just left me, you even said hi to HER (the one she hates) over me."  I tried talking, which I have learned is useless and by the end of that day I actually left early... .  So she got jealous and completely went off on the stall cleaners, who quit, and then she ended up having to clean stalls herself for weeks causing her awful back problems which led to a few emergency room visits during which she had to get shots because she was in such excruciating pain. 

This is about when I started going... .hmm, something is just not adding up here... .

Now after the most recent devaluation and her telling me to "Get out of her life!" she tried making a closer friendship with another volunteer only a week later.  That volunteer even made a facebook post about making a new friend for life tagging BFF.  Then only a week later I end up on the phone with the sobbing volunteer (whom I spoke to thinking I was going to get news of an attempted suicide by BFF or something).  The volunteer was sobbing asking, "Is she crazy or am I crazy?"  She relayed a conversation they had had and basically told me that BFF still refers to me as BFF (even though it's going on a month since she contacted me), and said we are taking a break.  BFF asked volunteer if we had spoken and when she said yes (not knowing about the recent drama) BFF told her that the volunteer could NOT be friends with me.  Apparently I am owned now, Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)... .

The thing is a few months back I had a sweet conversation with BFF (seemingly sweet to me, I see now how it could go the opposite way) during which she said she'd like to buy me a ring, because I was such a wonderful best friend and she didn't want another best friend ever and she didn't want me to have another either.  Thinking about it now any relationship she has with people we have in common, whenever she devalues me and she stops speaking to me she expects them to stop as well.  I realize since it's  mostly her family that they have been almost trained to do so by her... .they are walking on eggshells and don't want to upset her (or else she will start devaluing them and cut off contact with them).  I suppose it's because she is jealous if they talk to me (when she sees me as all black) and wants to control the situation and flow of information.
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« Reply #44 on: May 09, 2015, 02:15:18 AM »

I am now split from my BPD, however hugely regret giving up on a friendship with a friend. I am straight and female and had a very good friendship with a female however my BPD could not tolerate the friendship at all. He made it so hard in the end I would not tell him I would see her for coffee etc. Once my BPD started hurting himself I. Felt I had to stop anything that would aggravate his mood so i cut ties completely with my friend. I miss her continuously and deeply regret not dealing with the situation better

I hope you make better decisions than I did, it sounds like you will.

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paintingitblack

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« Reply #45 on: May 10, 2015, 02:11:14 AM »

Thanks for all your feedback guys. This got more response than I ever thought it would. My BPD BF has calmed down about the situation. Unforunately although I did not budge and would not be emotionally manipulated I do think he (my BF) managed to guilt/pressure his friend into giving up talking to me. I infer this by the friend's typical semi-frequent messages the week prior to the incident compared to now with his lukewarm demeanor and lack of response to the one message I sent him. The loss of the friend in question who although I do think is a great guy, doesn't particularly bother me. Although it is unfortunate. We were not that close and only beginning to build a friendship when this incident happened. Truth be told half of me wants to message this friend and ask why he isnt talking to me anymore. Although it's probably obvious and not a good idea to stir the sh*t pot. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't curious to know what my BF said to seem like the innocent party or victim though. Granted I can't even blame the friend for "choosing" my BF over me if he was pressured with some sort of ultimatum. He was definitively closer to my BF, and knows nothing about BPD likely (he even stated this was the first time he had seen this "side" of my BF before). My BF and I are moving out of state in a month so this specific case is even slightly moot to me. Well perhaps not so moot because now I feel like there is zero chance of having this friend visit and stay with us. However that is my bf's call and his choices that make that being possible in the future impossible. Which is primarily his loss too because this is someone he considers one of HIS best friends. My BF grows close to friends and idealizes them quite quickly as "best friends" before something usually a lot of his own doing sabatoges the relationship. It looks like he avoided that fully happening here, which I am grateful for because I do think this friend is a positive influence in his life. How things stand with this awkward detente I think will prevent much in person interaction from this point forward between the three of us together, and that is too bad. Yet I know it is not in my control.

The principle of the matter I still do think matters though. He resents the fact I accused him of emotional manipulation. In the days sense calming I think he has fished for an apology from me for that statement, but I have not backed down. I have said I do not generally think he is emotionally manipulative but I believe he was being so in this case. When I get told "if you continue to do this or NOT do this, then you don't care about my feelings and your mind is on someone else" i stand by that being manipulative. Meaning the only way I can show regard to his feelings by this logic is to cease my platonic actions. These type of rash generalities on his part I think are only appropriate in the most severe of circumstances. Say if I were cheating on him and refused to give up my relationship with the "other man". This was very far from the case with me here.

Any advice about asking the friend what happened? I assume it is probably best to just let it go at this point? I just think the drama it may cause for my own peace of mind and pride (to defend myself from me sounding like the irrational one) would be a fools errand. Agree or disagree?
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« Reply #46 on: May 10, 2015, 05:30:38 AM »

My mother tends to triangulate people. They are either on her side or someone else's side. When she is angry at me she can paint me black to them. This has included several family members on her side of the family. Like you mentioned- if I try to find out what was said it would mean stirring up thr drama pot and then they would be put in the middle of choosing her word or mine so I didn't do it.

My H does not do that but he can be critical of my friends. We used to have friends who were couples but we don't anymore so we are not invited to social groups as a couple. We really have no friends that we share. I found women friends- other moms mostly. He has some guy buddies. I wonder if it is even possible to have mutual friends as a couple.
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« Reply #47 on: May 10, 2015, 05:43:38 AM »

I can think of some reasons for this. People who know my mom and also my H don't see the side of them that I do. Both of them have amazing social persona. If I were to see my H with his friends I would see that persona and he knows I know it isn't all real. He has accused me of showing my friends a better side of me than he sees. I think everyone is on good behavior in social situations but I think it's odd that he said that. However he gets jealous when I am friendly to other people. I have brought up the fact that I am sad that we don't socialize as a couple but it is easier on both of us when we don't.

For my mother, I know that she has lied about me and if the relatives asked me questions they would find out. I also know that she has painted me black to them. Sharing her family and friends would- I think- be a collision of two realities - mine and hers. I decided it was better not to.
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paintingitblack

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« Reply #48 on: May 10, 2015, 06:07:48 AM »

I guess part of me just wants to know what happened and where we stand. When the friend and I talked we discussed and agreed how hypocritical my BF was being. He would get very upset when a mutual friend of theirs would get jealous in a very similar fashion. I just hate not knowing what's up or what happened. Talking one day, now not at all the next. The not knowing where we stand bothers me more so than the loss of a potential friendship if that makes sense. It just feels awkward. I'll likely let it be and just mention it if he ever does contact me again.
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« Reply #49 on: May 10, 2015, 07:19:04 AM »

I think it ok to contact him to clear the air. I would keep in mind the Karpmans drama triangle and try to stay out of that. Most likely the friend does not want to get in the middle of the drama and wants to be friends with both if you too- if he can.

It is possible that he feels he is being forced to choose between the two of you too.

The way I try to keep these things "off the triangle" is to keep the discussion on me " I value your friendship" instead of talking about my mother or H to the other person. I think it is ok to ask what your boyfriend said and clarify that but I would refrain from discussing him too much.
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paintingitblack

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« Reply #50 on: May 10, 2015, 07:41:04 AM »

I think it ok to contact him to clear the air. I would keep in mind the Karpmans drama triangle and try to stay out of that. Most likely the friend does not want to get in the middle of the drama and wants to be friends with both if you too- if he can.

It is possible that he feels he is being forced to choose between the two of you too.

The way I try to keep these things "off the triangle" is to keep the discussion on me " I value your friendship" instead of talking about my mother or H to the other person. I think it is ok to ask what your boyfriend said and clarify that but I would refrain from discussing him too much.

I'm sure he would like to be friends with both of us. As I said in the start of this thread, he was very much the "aggressor" of sorts who initiated contact and friendship with me. By messaging me on twitter several times then asking for my phone number before ultimately asking to hang out. I just imagine my boyfriend kind of gave a sob story ended by a "it's him or me" type deal, in which he chose him. Yet again I understand why he would... .they are very close and even work together. It is just a shame because he and I were getting along together quite well. Now for the foreseeable future as my boyfriend and him are still close, there is that elephant in the room with what happened. I will take a few days to think on it to see if I still want to contact him or feel as strongly in wanting to as I do now. As much as I want to clear the air... .I don't want to start more drama for my or HIS (the friends) sake.
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« Reply #51 on: May 10, 2015, 08:10:15 AM »

Unfortunately where there is any dysfunction and 3 people involved there is likely to be drama. Dysfunction loves a triangle. For parents of middle school kids- it is known that a triangle is the most difficult friend group for them. It seems that it inevitably turns into a rotating 2 vs 1 situation. Dysfunctional / emotionally immature people do the same.

Although my H doesn't play the game to the extent my mother does - his jealousy / criticism of my friends has made it preferable for me to have my own friends. A recent example is that a friend of mine was somewhat rude. I know some backstory - this friend is going through some stress. I am inclined to ignore the slight but my H has made a point of it. When I started to tell the backstory - his response was "you just don't want to hear any criticism of your friend"

No point in JADE here. He has his opinion and he's already made up his mind about my friend and what I think ( although he doesn't have that right to determine what I think and I don't think what he thinks but I can't change what he chooses to think)

I'm past the point of wanting to share what I think in this case. I choose to keep my friend but you can see how being friends as a couple would now be a bit awkward.
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« Reply #52 on: May 10, 2015, 08:17:57 AM »

Our partners might fit on the triangle and play their friends and family on it too. One way I assess the situation is if the other person is comfortable being on the triangle. I'm not so unfortunately I will choose to participate or not. I have found that long term friends of my mom are part of her triangle. You can talk to your friend and decide how to proceed from there.
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« Reply #53 on: May 10, 2015, 02:28:36 PM »

Fresia*

I hope so!  I just started looking at my life and I always wanted a life with lots of friends/family (more quantity than quality), but I was looking at good, kind, fun, friendly people I wasn't reaching out to say hi to simply because BFF wasn't.  Then I realized during a devaluation that I felt crappy not having my phone calls answered or texts returned, and I thought that must be how they feel and they did nothing to deserve it.  So I reached out and said I'm trying to keep my relationships separate just because she has decided to not talk to you doesn't mean I can't, I like you let's continue to be friends.  So we did... .and still are in most cases.  Unfortunately, this does pose one thing I know she will not like.  I am going to need to institute a boundary of not allowing her to interrogate me about my other friendships.  I am a very open and honest person so when she would ask, who have you talked to, about what, about me?  I'd answer because to me if you ask things, you want the answer, well that just ended up blowing up my face.  She'd take what I said and turn it into some huge drama that it wasn't, not only that the words that had been said ended up being twisted into something that was not said which she would then be mad about.  It was exhausting just trying to go back and correct all the inconsistencies she'd create out of what I said... .so that's just going to have to be off limits.  If I bring up someone, hey so and so is having a great time at school or has a new boyfriend, etc... .That's fine catching up on friends is great, but I will not be interrogated, no good comes from it.  I'm realizing it's mostly her insecurity, she thinks if people mention her name at all then it must be bad, and they must be conspiring behind her back some evil plan they will someday spring on her.  When in reality it's simply, "Hey how is BFF doing?  Is she still with boyfriend?  How is her daughter doing?  Is the divorce going well?"  What she hears though is an entirely different story... .  The thing is I like these people, these friends, and I enjoy having then in my life.  Some of them have friends who are diagnosed bipolar and so they can understand when I'm coming from when I need to ask advice, they are also great to reality check with so I feel less crazy.  It occurred to me that I became so isolated at one point, I honestly felt like I was doing everything wrong and could do nothing right.  It took one of these friends finally listening to my story to say, "It's not about me" for me to actually start to believe that!

So far BFF can be very self-destructive but her behavior is generally only affecting her (although unfortunately sometimes her daughter as well).  While not as drastic as some I believe she does self harm in moments of stress; she picks her cuticles until they bleed (sometimes continuing after).  She has said before she has a fascination with blood but I have never seen any cutting scars and she models so those marks would be obvious in her pictures if she did cut.  I hope she never progresses to something like that, but I know that with (possible) BPD that is very possible; plus if she ever decides to no longer model and breaks up with boyfriend (so she doesn't have to worry about him seeing) I could see her resorting to cutting.

Sometimes we do the best we can with what we have.  I feel this is true of both people with BPD and people without BPD.  They do the best they can with their overwhelming emotions, and we do the best we can dealing with them.  Until both sides learn exactly what is happening and understand it, we cannot believe we'd have an inkling of forethought of dealing with some of the situations that arise.


paintingitblack

I've learned that my BFF honestly feels she has every right to pull something like pressuring/guilting people into not talking to me.  Plus I've noticed that for those who don't really see the situation as it happens or hear about it as it happens they only get one side.  So it's possible that with what little information they are given they may end up getting the impression that I am crazy/unstable, especially since BFF says things with her negative slant (leaving out anything she may have done to contribute to the situation) so she comes out the victim and then everyone wants to be on her side.  Plus with her family there has been at least one major situation I know of that came up when she was growing up where her family did not believe her, so now they take her at her word since they don't know that her word might be very far from the truth in reality as her reality is quite distorted.  No way to explain it though, so I just talk to them anyway and if they don't answer or it upsets her that's not my problem.  If they want me to stop they are grownups and they can ask.  When they do then I am happy to ask them why they are choosing to no longer talk to me and if she's the reason.  I would probably then ask them why they are letting a 23 year old woman decide who they can and cannot speak to? Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)


Notwendy

Before BFF devalued me the first major time a few months back when she started dating new boyfriend, I think that BFF, boyfriend, hubby, and I would have been great friends.  We had a few "family game nights" (as she called them), and it was nice that we could always include the girls so they'd get to play together as well.  Thing is after the devaluation and BFF getting upset if I'd say something she didn't think boyfriend should know yet (for instance checking in to make sure she hasn't overslept when we have a morning meeting which I used to do all the time with whomever she stayed with so they could give her a nudge; mom, brother, then boyfriend), she was furious thinking it would give him the impression she was unreliable.  I bit my tongue hard to not say, "Well you are!" because I know she doesn't want people to see her that way.  Thing is I just realized that getting to know boyfriend just wasn't worth it to me, which may be part of why I got devalued.  If I had gotten to know him, then he might have gotten to see her a bit through my eyes but now she can go tell him "her side" and he'll never hear "my side" because we don't talk.  If she does stay with him though, and really lets him in so he can see behind the mask and I share the possibility of her fitting BPD and she decides to get treatment I could see us all being friends again and having more family game nights.  It was fun, we enjoyed one another's company, but if she is going to pit people against one another or not let him in so I can be myself around him then it just won't work.

I like what you said about trying to keep out of the triangle... .I'd like that very much  Smiling (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #54 on: May 10, 2015, 07:32:52 PM »

My mother has a BFF since college. Once I was over and the friend kept trying to call. My mom would tell me not to answer the phone. Apparently, she was mad at the friend.

I couldn't take it, and when mom was out, I answered it. Yes, it was crossing a boundary, but she was a family friend, and so I decided to talk to her. I didn't discuss my mother. Later, they had reconciled. I've also gone through times as an adult where mom cut contact with me for one reason or another. Or she was mad at my kids and said it to them too.

This kind of thing can really hurt. I think this is why they do it. They hurt, so they feel they need to hurt us too. However, over time, I have seen this as an ebb and flow, kind of like the waves. I have to assume that for my mother's friend, she has come to see it this way too.

I know that it hurts to have your friend cut contact, and you miss her. I hope that you will see that this is more about her than you. I think in time, she will contact you. I'd be willing to bet that when she does, it will be as if nothing happened and that she will want you to forget it. This is how it seems to work, with my mom and my H, after they have devalued me and/or raged at me.

When/ if your friend returns it will be your choice to resume things or not.
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« Reply #55 on: May 11, 2015, 07:19:30 AM »

Staff only

This thread has reached it's posting limit.

Please feel free to pick up the discussion by creating a new thread.
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