Jealously and possessiveness over friends. Help

[Depression = 72% of members]

Hello all! I am looking for some advice on how to handle my BPD partner. We are both 25-year-old gay males who have been dating for a little over five years.

Recently an issue that has always plagued us to an extent has really hit a fever pitch. I made plans and hung out with one of his good friends. This has really set him over the top, from sadness to anger. He insists that my mind is only on his friend now, and I do not care about him. It was to a point when I was asked to hang out by the aforementioned friend (knowing my bf would react negatively to this interaction) that I felt compelled to either make up an excuse as to why I couldn't, or say I don't think we should because it would be upsetting to my boyfriend. My boyfriend was crying the other night insisting he didn't want to be anybodies second choice seemingly devastated that this completely platonic interaction occurred. What is it about BPD (if this is the BPD talking) that makes him see everything as a competition? Why does he see my interacting with his friend as somehow negating their own relationship? How can he not see his severe possessiveness and jealously (to the point of breakdown) in this situation is irrational and uncalled for?

I feel as if I have been vilified for "encroaching" on his friendship and I want to be there for him but it is difficult without admitting that I am at fault for this occurring. I do NOT feel as if my actions were inappropriate and because of that he thinks I do not care about his feelings. When in fact, I care a TON. I just don't think responding to his irrational behavior by cutting off all contact with his friend would be rational, helpful or fair to anyone in this situation.

Any advice? Was I in the wrong? Where should I go from there?

Honest opinions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

-Nathan

[paintingitblack]

Hello all! I am looking for some advice on how to handle my BPD partner. We are both 25-year-old gay males who have been dating for a little over five years.

Recently an issue that has always plagued us to an extent has really hit a fever pitch. I made plans and hung out with one of his good friends. This has really set him over the top, from sadness to anger. He insists that my mind is only on his friend now, and I do not care about him. It was to a point when I was asked to hang out by the aforementioned friend (knowing my bf would react negatively to this interaction) that I felt compelled to either make up an excuse as to why I couldn't, or say I don't think we should because it would be upsetting to my boyfriend. My boyfriend was crying the other night insisting he didn't want to be anybodies second choice seemingly devastated that this completely platonic interaction occurred. What is it about BPD (if this is the BPD talking) that makes him see everything as a competition? Why does he see my interacting with his friend as somehow negating their own relationship? How can he not see his severe possessiveness and jealously (to the point of breakdown) in this situation is irrational and uncalled for?

I feel as if I have been vilified for "encroaching" on his friendship and I want to be there for him but it is difficult without admitting that I am at fault for this occurring. I do NOT feel as if my actions were inappropriate and because of that he thinks I do not care about his feelings. When in fact, I care a TON. I just don't think responding to his irrational behavior by cutting off all contact with his friend would be rational, helpful or fair to anyone in this situation.

Any advice? Was I in the wrong? Where should I go from there?

Honest opinions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

-Nathan

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[formflier]

 

Nathan,

Is your partner diagnosed?... .in therapy?

Please dig into the lessons on the right side of the screen... .that will help you get on the right track.

The quick version of the answer to your question... .is that you should not change your behavior/decisions... .based on your boyfriends moods and fits.  That is training him to do that... .in order to get what he wants.

How you go about this matters... .that is where the lessons and the  guidance from this site really com in handy.

Tell us more about how you currently handle things... .when your boyfriend does things like this.

FF

[paintingitblack]

He is NOT currently in therapy. Which is something I think would do him a lot of good. However he is diagnosed.

I am not an expert in dealing with BPD behavior, but I am not a noobie to it either. I am having more difficulty dealing with this issue more than most, and I have guilt for the friend (not knowing about all my BFs BPD behavior or what BPD even is likely even) is now mixed into it. Typically when my boyfriend has similar fits like this I try to rationally tell him why what he is saying is not in line with reality. In this case I pointed out times when he has hung out with my close friends without me, and how I thought it was perfectly acceptable and even a positive thing. I told him that I don't think the majority of people would feel that me hanging out with his friend would be inappropriate, and that he seems very possessive for some reason.

What I typically do when he acts very irrational is I give him his space, tell him I love him but he will have to contact me when he is ready to be more rational on the subject. That usually works, but yet again now I feel guilty for wrapping up someone else in it all. Why is he letting this completely ruin and end what he saw as one of his best friendships? I feel partly to blame but I also DO realize it is my BFs choice to let that happen.

[waverider]

Dont know how it works in the gay world, but in a hetrosexual BPD relationships it is often near impossible to have an opposite sex platonic relationship without intense jealousies.

Do you think it is sexuality based or just friendship based? ie would he feel the same if you were talking about a female friend.

Some pwBPD cannot handle their partners having friendships, or even family ties, of any type which have nothing to do with perceived attraction. Just simply vying for priority attention .

[paintingitblack]

I do think the fact it is a male friend certainly ramps up the jealously ten fold. It is not a fair standard to have though, when he can befriend other gay males all the time and I am not supposed to (nor do I) react poorly to it when he does.  The "rules"(for lack of a better term) should apply to us both equally should they not?

He gets upset anytime I interact with another gay male, but this time is even worse because it was HIS friend. So I think the jealously is burning at both ends. Jealous of his friend with me, and me with his friend.

[itgirl]

I am in the same situation as yourself  (Lesbian relationship).  Even if the girl is straight I am also not allowed to connect with them platonically.  And the double standards is so ridiculous.  She is off course free to pursue any other friendship no questions asked.  And yes,  even family members can become an issue. 

My advise would be to not start cutting off friends.  If it is not this friend it will be the next one he will be jealous over.  So where does it end.  So you will have to set boundaries and stick with them.

[formflier]

The "rules"(for lack of a better term) should apply to us both equally should they not?

Yes they should. 

Most nons (me included) have tried to "explaint" this to pwBPD... .and failed miserably.

If you want equality... .you will have to enforce it.

My recommendation is that you use this forum to tweak the sentence that you will use to explain this... .once it is tweaked... .use it once... .and then don't participate in conversations about what friends are ok for you to have.

If you decide to start down this road... .very important that you don't turn around.

FF

[Notwendy]

My H doesn't help with the kids much, and he was gone a lot. I ended up socializing mostly with other moms whose friends have kids my age. I wonder if that was a way my H felt more secure- if the kids were with me all the time, how would I meet any men?

Jealousy- huge jealous rages over me seeing some old male friends ( who live out of town) in a group setting with all our spouses and kids along too. Jealous over me saying an actor or musician on TV is attractive. Sometimes he will get it in his head that I am cheating if I come home late, or discuss something that includes a man that I may have met through friends or a group. I've been going to 12 step groups for co-dependency and sometimes he gets worried that I met a man there too.

He knows how to not come off like a jealous jerk all the time though. The outright rages are relatively rare. Rather, ( and I didn't get this over the years) he just made is harder for me to socialize- by not getting home from work so I could not leave the kids, being critical of my friends, being too tired to socialize as a couple- which meant I mostly did things with other women and their kids.

Women? They aren't safe either. He has gotten jealous of time spent with some friends, and I have some friends who are lesbians and he has on occasion asked about that too.

Don't narrow your world. I am rebuilding my friend circle. itgirl is right- if it isn't one friend, it is the next. Also pay attention to the other subtle ways you are being discouraged from having friends.

[waverider]

There is no agreeable fairness levels when dealing with pwBPD. Always double standards.

As advised it is important that you don't allow yourself to be isolated. That will mean enforcing your rights and dealing with the inevitable blow ups.

Many here have had long hard battles coming back out of isolation. You end up there before you realize where it is heading. Even if not outright trying to stop you, there can be endless "hurdles" which make you give up trying to maintain contacts

[paintingitblack]

Thanks for the input guys. I try to point out his double standards and point out his unhealthy possessiveness. Then he always just says "I get it, you won't have to worry about it anymore I know you think that I am in the wrong" or other things along those lines in a very passive aggressive manner. It has gotten to the point he said I will not have to deal with it anymore because he just won't ever make any friends again, to which i replied I didn't believe that nor did i think it was healthy. I informed him he is worthy of friends.

Over the years I have worked A LOT on my co-dependency so I am really not that upset, just more so frustrated. I know if he broke up with me tomorrow, I would walk away and be fine. I think he knows that too, so the odds of that happening are not very large. I just wish he could see how he is sabotaging his relationship and what he considered one of his best friendships all stemming from me and his friend simply getting Taco Bell together. He insists that I have chosen sides now and no longer care about him by continuing to interact with the friend. Truth is, I care about his feelings A LOT. I want to be there for him but I am long past the point where I will let myself get kicked around or come to his beck and call when he either consciously or subconsciously tries to use his tantrums to emotionally manipulate me. I can only be there for him as much as he allows while still respecting myself. I am finding it difficult to walk that line.

[waverider]

Self sabotage, and inability to accept consequences due to their own actions is a big issue. The messenger often gets shot in the process of trying to point this out.

The reaction being extreme black and white, and becoming a bigger drama than the original issue in the first place.

No a lot you can do except what you think is right and leave them to their own consequences. Stay out of the nitty gritty blame game.

If he thinks in black and white then he can't comprehend you would be any different as that is alien to him. Hence the black and white assumptions. he is projecting his reasoning process onto you.

[formflier]

I can only be there for him as much as he allows while still respecting myself. I am finding it difficult to walk that line.

Interesting way to put it.

Does that leave you in charge of walking the line... .or is he in charge of the line that you walk... .?

FF

[paintingitblack]

I can only be there for him as much as he allows while still respecting myself. I am finding it difficult to walk that line.

Interesting way to put it.

Does that leave you in charge of walking the line... .or is he in charge of the line that you walk... .?

FF

Interesting question actually. I didn't want to further complicate issues in my original post but he was held up at gun point the very same night I hung out with his friend that caused all this jealously. If that did not occur I would be much more willing to leave him be until he started giving me the same respect I give him. However, he has just always been there for me during rough times and I would like to be there for him in the wake of this traumatic event. So the timing couldn't be worse. I feel like I cannot be there for him because both issues are just making him a complete wreck right now. The being robbed at gunpoint being COMPLETELY understandable to be a wreck about. Yet it is hard for me to be there for him about THAT issue when he is so irrationally upset/angry for me hanging out with a friend.

[Notwendy]

That would be a traumatic event ( the robbery) for anyone. That, on top of the jealousy is probably making it all worse for him right now. You are a kind soul to be there for him, and hopefully if things calm down, you can make a clearer decision about what you want to do. Keep in mind, the calm is about you, not him. He may always have something to be upset about. Calm being are you acting according to your values? I understand that it could bother you to leave a friend in this situation.

I think if the denial is so strong, one of the problems is that they can not see the destructiveness of their behavior. I think all of us have experienced jealousy from time to time, but hopefully we consider the facts as well. It would make sense for someone to be upset about actual cheating, but it gets destructive when it is imaginary and implausible.

I was recently able to meet up with some old childhood friends who I have not seen in ages. I was very excited to meet their wives and children. The sad part for me is that my H interpreted my joy over seeing old friends as something to be jealous about. I still enjoyed seeing them, but his hissy fits put a damper on the occasion. What my H didn't see at the time was that this had no effect on my feelings for my friends, but it did affect how I felt bringing him along. It also made me think of how many times I didn't make the effort to see friends because of all the effort it would take to include him, or how hard it would be to go on my own. Now, I would go.

[formflier]

  Yet it is hard for me to be there for him about THAT issue when he is so irrationally upset/angry for me hanging out with a friend.

How so?


Put the ball in his court... .so to speak.

Be free... .empathetic... .supporting... .loving... .etc etc... .anytime he wants to discuss being held up.

Anytime he wants to discuss controlling your relationships... .complaining about them. 

(you) "I'm to upset to discuss that right now... ."

If he continues... .leave.  Hopefully you can say... ."I'm too upset and need a break... .I'll be back in 10 minutes... ."

Keep repeating this... .but make the breaks longer if he keeps insisting.

Do you think you can pull something like this off.

Alternatively... .if you really think he needs support... .and you can get over the control issue for now... .drop it and support your partner.

But... .you really have to drop it.  And you don't want to suggest to him that controlling you is ok.  So... .this is tricky.

Bottom line... .this is big issue for you... .and you need to decide if it is worth action... .if so... .get on that side of road.

If it's not worth action... .even "for now"... .  Get on other side of road.

What happens to guys that hang out in middle of road for long time... .  

FF

[paintingitblack]

What I have been doing is letting him know if he needs anything to just call me and I'll be there. He seems to want to just let this blow over, but I don't think that is good enough for me. Agreeing to disagree isn't always a bad thing in relationships (in fact it can be healthy) but this would just seem like something that would pop up again in not too long of time with someone else. Yet due to recent events I would be willing to put the issue on the back burner for the time being if he would allow it. Prioritize what is important. However he is so upset/angry in tears about the situation (with his friend) he is the one who is not able to drop it.  If he knows I am hanging out again with the friend in question (which I plan to do at some point) it sets him off all over again in thinking I just care about this friend now and not him. I will not apologize for an action I do not feel is wrong. Even though he says "the fact you continue to hang out with him tells me a lot about where you stand and what regard you have for my feelings". I refuse to be emotionally maniputlated.

Consequently, he is refusing to talk to his friend about the situation at hand, who he has now split and cut off contact with. I believe this may be due to the fact on some level (whether conscious or subconscious) he knows with all the facts on the table that his demeanor about the situation is not defensible. So he would rather just cut and run than try to explain himself and end up sounding jealous and possessive. That is speculative but I believe it to be true.

[formflier]

  Agreeing to disagree isn't always a bad thing in relationships (in fact it can be healthy) but this would just seem like something that would pop up again in not too long of time with someone else.

Solid statement.

So... .what would success look like.  If you don't want to agree to disagree... .what would you suggest?

Yet due to recent events I would be willing to put the issue on the back burner for the time being if he would allow it.

Why would he allow it... .or not?  Isn't it your decision which burner to put it on?

  I refuse to be emotionally maniputlated.

Solid!

Consequently, he is refusing to talk to his friend about the situation at hand, who he has now split and cut off contact with. I believe this may be due to the fact on some level (whether conscious or subconscious) he knows with all the facts on the table that his demeanor about the situation is not defensible. So he would rather just cut and run than try to explain himself and end up sounding jealous and possessive. That is speculative but I believe it to be true.

That's a pretty good theory... .but... .does it matter what his reasons/thinking really are?

FF

[Notwendy]

My guess is that this will settle down, and when it does, your boyfriend will behave as if it didn't happen or that it was not a big deal. If you try to bring it up, he will likely play it down. The people with BPD in my life do that. Once they decide they are over it ,the expectation is that the incident is erased, like a dry erase board, and you continue as if it never happened. There is usually no discussion or accountability of the incident.

IMHO, when they are dysregulated, they are overcome with the brain transmitters of being angry and hypearrousal. Once it is over there is some awareness that they behaved badly. Since they tend to have so much shame, the way they cope with it is to compartmentalize it- that was not really them, and go on as if it never happened. They expect others to do the same.

Only it did happen, which leaves the non thinking "what the heck" but there is little choice but to go along with the person with BPD because, there is no going back, no resolution, and no apology.

For my H, he eventually came to his senses that the family style encounter with old friends was not romantic in any way, and at some level, I think he sees where his behavior was not appropriate. If I were to bring it up, he would counter it with " see, I am nice to your friends now" and that is all that is left, not the time he spent raging at me. I didn't make the connection with BPD back then, and I was JADEing, but if I think back on what he was accusing me of, it is just not true.

My mom does this too. She was angry about something and decided to punish us by not sending anything to the kids for holidays or birthdays. I said "fine mom, we are happy with a card if you want to send it". We don't expect gifts.  Then the holidays came around and she called wanting to know what they wanted for presents, like nothing happened.

I don't pay much attention to the rages anymore, or the accusations if they are just not true. You know that hanging out with a friend is not doing anything wrong, so be true to your own ethical standards. You can't control what your boyfriend thinks.

[waverider]

My guess is that this will settle down, and when it does, your boyfriend will behave as if it didn't happen or that it was not a big deal. If you try to bring it up, he will likely play it down. The people with BPD in my life do that. Once they decide they are over it ,the expectation is that the incident is erased, like a dry erase board, and you continue as if it never happened. There is usually no discussion or accountability of the incident.

It goes into quarantine and anyone who brings it up is immediately painted as a persecutor who bears grudges. This invalidates anyone who has been affected as they are not being given time to heal from it. No one else can march to the beat of a pwBPDs drum. Thats why they end up alone and abandoned with only an ever changing list of temporary rescuers who out of a misguided sense of care keep validating the victim mentality.

It takes a strong person to stay with a pwBPD and not get drawn into rescuer mode, but that is what they truly need.

Neither can they march to the beat of our drum, expecting them to do so will lead to chaos.

[paintingitblack]

So he wanted to talk today. Bawling his eyes out he accused me of being jealous of his friends, that is why I encroach on his friendships. He made it seem like I preyed upon his friends and they didn't approach me of their own free will. One valid point he did have is that I have been guilty of lying by omission and small white lies in fear of how he may responsd. For example, how long I hung out with the person, or what we did in entirety. I do realize that me lying is not fair to myself or him. Walking on eggshells isn't a solution and there is no excuse for me lying. Even if the lies are small and meant to avoid further escalation of conflict. I apologized for that. However now he wants to dismiss every word I said because I "can't be trusted" after the lies and the fact I feel like I have to lie to him makes him feel the lowest he has ever felt. Overall I am glad the conversation took place, I wasn't rude but didn't hold back truths. I believe I was able to pull back and look at myself objectively however I don't think he did the same. In the midst of tears he straight up said "why are you taking him from me?" and kept asking "why him? why him?". I repeated those words back to him after he calmed down to see if he could see how unhealthy it seemed. He didn't say anything back but also did not concede the point. I just hope maybe something got through to him.

[formflier]

So he wanted to talk today. Bawling his eyes out he accused me of being jealous of his friends, that is why I encroach on his friendships.

This would have been big issue for me... .it's triggering for my wife to accuse me of feeling a certain way.  Especially when she is wrong.

I've taken the tactic of asking her if she is asking about my feelings when she says stuff like this.  If she persists with her line of thought... .that is invalidating to me.  I leave the conversation.

How did it make you feel to hear that you had thoughts... .feelings... .that you didn't have?

  One valid point he did have is that I have been guilty of lying by omission and small white lies in fear of how he may responsd. For example, how long I hung out with the person, or what we did in entirety. I do realize that me lying is not fair to myself or him.

Lying by omission?  It is your experience... .your truth... .why is he entitled to be part of it? 

What do you think you can say next time he asks for information you don't want to tell him... .or don't feel he has a right to know?


IMO... .he was trying to manipulate you into dropping this guy.  Very important (as others have said) that you do NOT let him (or anyone) isolate you.

FF

[Notwendy]

Bawling his eyes out he accused me of being jealous of his friends, that is why I encroach on his friendships.


Projection?

Then, he blamed you for something "lying by omission".  And you apologized. Nothing wrong with this.

However, do you see a pattern? Projection, blame you.

This may be how your boyfriend sees this. You can listen, be empathetic, but you can also keep your own perspective. It must really feel hurtful to him to think you are encroaching on his friend, but this doesn't mean you intentionally hurt his feelings.

In a similar sense, it is sad that seeing a guy I grew up with resulted in pain for my H, but the truth is, my happiness at seeing an old friend was not intentionally hurtful or in any sense a betrayal of my relationship. I can be empathetic, but I can not control or change how anyone else chooses to see this situation. I just have to hold on to my own truth: I saw an old friend, nothing more.

[waverider]

One valid point he did have is that I have been guilty of lying by omission and small white lies in fear of how he may responsd. For example, how long I hung out with the person, or what we did in entirety. I do realize that me lying is not fair to myself or him. Walking on eggshells isn't a solution and there is no excuse for me lying. Even if the lies are small and meant to avoid further escalation of conflict. I apologized for that. However now he wants to dismiss every word I said because I "can't be trusted" after the lies and the fact I feel like I have to lie to him makes him feel the lowest he has ever felt.

This is a consequence of the pressure he puts you under, you are not totally responsible for that, Total honesty is not possible with someone who cannot accept honesty. It is a lose/lose situation, so be careful about carrying guilt over it.

Learning to block and not interact with "interrogations" is also a boundary you may wish to explore on the principle of you do not want to be made to feel guilty and have to explain details of everything you do. It is often an attempt to push you into JADE where you rapidly start to move off the moral high ground into weaker justifications, and the conflict seems to go off on a tangent

[Notwendy]

This is a tactic my H does- finds somewhere in the conflict where I was at minor fault and make the focus of the conflict on that. In the case where he got mad about my friend, he made a point that I " didn't give him enough notice" for the visit, and ran with that one. Often he makes the case for " I didn't give him enough detail, time, ask him correctly, say it clearly... ."

I used to JADE, and this took the conversation off to that tangent. My H is very clever at derailing the conversation if it involves something that may involve him being accountable... .I can ask him something serious and he will bring up something unrelated.

[paintingitblack]

I just think it is important for us nons to look at ourselves critically and objectively in these type situations. I'm not sure I agree with the sentiment "total honesty is not possible with someone who cannot accept honesty". I think everyone involved deserves total honesty. It doesn't mean my boyfriend will handle the honesty well, but I shouldn't let HIS behavior/reaction dictate whether or not I tell the truth. The truth sets you free type deal. He might not like what I said or did... .but at least he can't rationally accuse me of holding back or withholding information. After he knows the truth, it is up to him to deal with it. When I hold information back it can come off like I am trying to hide something because I think I am in the wrong on some level. I think in these type of situations although the person with BPD may not see things realistically no matter what, it is up to the non to be the steady hand and take the high ground.

I see any sort of lying or omission as letting THEIR behavior dictate mine. If I don't think something is any of his business or concern, I can simply tell him that and that is my right. However lying is wrong and I don't think I should be excused for it. Doesn't make me wrong with 98% of the other things I said... .but wrong is wrong and right is right. My two cents.

[formflier]

  I'm not sure I agree with the sentiment "total honesty is not possible with someone who cannot accept honesty". I think everyone involved deserves total honesty. 

I'm not saying you are wrong... .sometimes I come across a bit blunt... .strong... .when my intention is to be clear about my position.  Just so you know... .this is a IMO kinda thing... . 

BPD seems to be a disorder that is all about inappropriateness of crossing boundaries... .getting into other peoples business in a way nobody ever should... .or in a way people RARELY should. 

To me... .that seems to be a bigger marker of the disorder that "inability to handle the truth".   

Plus... .IMO... .truth has a lot of "point of view" to it.  Especially when the truth is about "how long is too long" to hang out with someone... .and that kinda thing.

So... .what I hope you consider... .and this is not just for your BPD partner.  Not everyone deserves the truth about all matters.

Yes... .a romantic partner should have a little bit more "info" or encroachment into your boundaries that a random person... .or even a good friend... .but still there should be boundaries.

My thought is that if you try to give everyone... .or even just your SO "total honestly"... .that could lead to "enmeshment". 

pwBPD tend to like r/s situations with lots of enmeshment.  The nons that are involved with them tend to end up "enmeshed" without realizing it... .and then one day look around and go... ."what the heck... ."

At least... .that is my experience... .and I've read many others the same way.

I'll hush for now.

Thoughts?

FF

Again... .friendly debate... .  

[starshine]

This is a great thread.  I have had uBPD ex's get very jealous of my close friendships, doing what ever possible to isolate me.  And as I have stated on other threads, I have many undiagnosed people with personality disorders who are close friends- funny, they don't like each other at all.  They all have something bad to say about each other.  What drama.  I am watching a particularly interesting exchange between a few friends right now, one (who is very high functioning) of which had painted me black (or at least dark gray).  Now that there is hella discord within this circle, all of a sudden I am missed tremendously.  Being loved again, and getting little gifts. Until I unknowingly do something else that slights this person. Sigh.   I was reading on another thread somewhere the difference between engage/rage and watch/wait (or something like that).  I have chosen to step back and watch what is going on, waiting for a time when I can relate to this friend.  I find it exhausting.  The idea of approaching these relationships with "total honesty" sounds like way too much work.  I am rather limiting in which capacities I relate with many of my friends, small doses. 

[paintingitblack]

I certainly agree with two of your points. That there is a lot of perspective when it comes to truth. Such as how long is too long to see someone etc. I also agree that just because you're dating (or married to) someone doesn't mean they are entitled to know every single thing about you and what you're doing. However the best way to handle this is to say "I don't think you need to know that information" instead of lying about what occurred. Sure I think it is fair that they know generally what you're doing or even who you were with but exact details of conversations had or an inteniary of what was done and when is certainly crossing a line. Trust me a BPD likely won't handle hearing that very well but it is certainly a better route to go than lying IMHO. To me the biggest thing here I think is the rules should apply to both parties equally. When they don't, that is a big problem and I must stand up for myself. Be the steady level headed one. Don't stoop to their level of lying or making rash generalizations. When you have nothing to hide the truth is always the best option I feel.

[waverider]

pwBPD can push you into hiding stuff simply because they will interrogate you past the point were regular people would stop. They want to find you hiding stuff.

eg you go shopping, they ask you what you bought, so you name off a few things. Later that day they see you eating something that wasn't on the list of things you mentioned, so you are accused of hiding it for some perceived reason.

it could have been of zero importance, but the point is they wanted to finger you for hiding things, so they keep looking until they find something. So you need to decide what is on the need to know list, otherwise you will find yourself over explaining every move you make, and it will still never be "honest" enough.

They can make you feel guilty in hindsight over the tiniest omission if you truly believe that you dont have the right to limit the amount of information you hand out.

It is a form of neediness, and neediness can't be sated.

It is not about the issue it is about their feeling of suspicion. This is how they express it. Trying to counter that with facts effectively invalidates their feeling rather than reassures them.

Agree actively lying will always undo you and make you feel lessor.

Rules are pointless if they can't be enforced. Compliance requires accountability and responsibility, both qualities are often lacking in pwBPD

[Notwendy]

Paintingitblack- I agree with you and I think hanging on to our own integrity is important. If we lie to deal with the pwBPD then we are compromising who we are.

However, I also agree with waverider that we need to be aware that our SO is likely to be playing by different rules. I don't think these rules are necessarily based on them choosing to be dishonest. I think they are based on their fears- fears that we might see that sad scared inside of them. Not knowing who they are. They can tell us what they want us to think, and they can omit.

My H isn't an outright liar. He considers himself to be an honest person, and he is. However, he omits information. . He is secretive by nature, but he rarely has done something really damaging. I on the other hand, chose honesty but I got upset when he didn't quite do the same. I realized that I can have this expectation of myself, but not him. Yet, I can trust him with the basics, and that is important. He would not do anything that would really be damaging to the family. Yet, his omissions keep him in a position of separateness.

My mother lies. Again, she has her limits. I trust that she would not do something major. However, she tells me what she thinks I need to hear and sometimes it is a story.

I laughed at Waverider's interrogation example. I think some of this is projection. Since they omit things, they assume we do. Then they accuse us of it. My mom will get an idea in her head and interrogate me to find evidence of it. It can be frustrating because I often don't know what she is thinking that she is trying to prove. That, she won't tell me or ask me. So she will interrogate me with round and round questions until I say what she wants to hear. I can tell because there is a "gotcha" pause when that happens.

There was one time she called me when I was driving to ask me something. I honestly didn't know the answer, and since I was driving, I told her I would look it up when I got home. That was enough to convince her that I was hiding something from her. Once I was late from a 12 step meeting and my H started asking me some weird questions. I had stopped to talk to another group member for a few minutes and the weather was bad, but he kept asking. It dawned on me that he had thought I had met some man at the meeting. Once he thought that, every answer was insufficient.

I decided that I have to keep my own integrity and not lie. However, sometimes, out of exhaustion and not wanting to deal with it, I have avoided topics or given short, brief answers, or lies of omission. I feel bad about it when I do, but sometimes I just don't want to get into it, especially at times when long honest explanations run into JADE. In the end though, I don't want to have something to hide, so I make every effort to live with integrity. If I haven't done what they accuse me of, then no amount of questioning or their imagination can change that.