Jealously and possessiveness over friends. Help

[waverider]

I laughed at Waverider's interrogation example. I think some of this is projection. Since they omit things, they assume we do. Then they accuse us of it. My mom will get an idea in her head and interrogate me to find evidence of it. It can be frustrating because I often don't know what she is thinking that she is trying to prove. That, she won't tell me or ask me. So she will interrogate me with round and round questions until I say what she wants to hear. I can tell because there is a "gotcha" pause when that happens.

It's also part because complete honesty to them will make them vulnerable so it goes against survival instincts. Hence complete honesty in everything is an alien concept. This leads to lack of belief in complete honesty in others. It is hard to have faith in something that feels unnatural to them, they struggle to believe anyone can be totally honest.

To believe it means they are lessor, so they want to level you back to what they know and are familiar with. If you are to be set up as whiter than white that has to be their choice not yours. This is why sometimes while they question you they can proclaim someone else as being righteous, when it is obvious that is not the case. Leaving you feeling betrayed

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

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[formflier]

  Leaving you feeling betrayed

This feeling used to get me in trouble a lot.  I was very effective at proving myself to be a good husband... .and proving myself innocent.  This was pre BPD knowledge and before I knew about bpdfamily.

What I thought was a good thing... .was damaging and pushing my r/s to a bad place. 

The feeling of betrayal... .and other feelings a non has... .will have to be dealt with by the non.  On occasion my wife is able to give some emotional support... .but that is rare. 

I try to enjoy it when it is there... .and find other outlets for my feelings... .issues... .when my wife is not able to support.

FF

[Notwendy]

Yes, well said Waverider.

I also think they feel betrayed. This is a common theme for my H- feeling betrayed. He can decide that something I have done is betraying him. It could be a simple thing that I forgot, and yet, I have betrayed him.

[Notwendy]

Weird, I just spoke to a friend of my H. H had been on a business trip. This person told me that my H told him all about the trip and that he had a great time. Nothing that isn't something I should not know. Just that my H didn't tell me any of it.

This isn't lying or betrayal, but I know that my H is at his most vulnerable with me. He has to keep a sort of barrier up with me to protect himself. If I were to say anything about it to him, it would likely result in a string of accusations " well you didn't tell me this, you don't tell me that, you talk to other people more than me". Which is actually true. It isn't easy for communication to flow one way. I tend to talk to people who share things back.

Also, one reason he doesn't tell me is that he had a good time. He feels some shame about leaving me and having fun without me. He doesn't like it if I were to do that. So, he would not want me to know that he had a good time.



I don't feel betrayed by this like I used to. I have come to accept that my r/s has good aspects and also limitations. I used to be jealous of my H's friends, since he seemed more relaxed and open with his friends at times than with me. I have come to accept that having this distance is what he does to protect himself. Ironically, I now do the same, but I didn't set out for it to be this way.

I think this makes his jealousy of my friends make sense in a way. When I do see a childhood friend, I am very relaxed because we have years of trust built between us. There isn't anything to hide from someone who has known me almost my whole life- they know a whole lot about me. But I am not intimate with them like I am with my H. Intimate relationships are harder.

[IsItHerOrIsItMe]

I also think they feel betrayed. This is a common theme for my H- feeling betrayed. He can decide that something I have done is betraying him. It could be a simple thing that I forgot, and yet, I have betrayed him.

Betrayal with a side of protecting themselves... .My uBPDw is self-aware enough that she realizes she's protecting herself from the betrayal/embarrassment if I live up to her poor expectations.

[IsItHerOrIsItMe]

Learning to block and not interact with "interrogations" is also a boundary you may wish to explore on the principle of you do not want to be made to feel guilty and have to explain details of everything you do. It is often an attempt to push you into JADE where you rapidly start to move off the moral high ground into weaker justifications, and the conflict seems to go off on a tangent

OK, if there's one issue that keeps me reading these boards this is it.  

My uBPDw is a master interrogator... .Just like the old WWII movies ("What's your name?  How can just telling me your name hurt anyone?  We're just two people here talking and I'd like to address you by your name... .it's not like you're telling me your country's invasion plans... .", "My name's John", "There, that wasn't so hard... .nice to meet you John"... .)

Brief background, I work in a small office.  Most days me and another woman.  w is stay at home mom.  Even though she's home all day every day if I'm in the office by myself she gets anxious.

So when I get up in the morning and w asks, "Is D going to be in the office today?".  It's just like "What's your name" in the WWII movies.  I know where it's probably going, but what w shouldn't be able to ask the question & get an answer?  But an answer to that just leads to the next question, and the next, and the next.  Each one incrementally more "interrogation-like".

What kind of boundary allows normal marital conversations without submitting to Joe Friday type interrogations?

[formflier]

What kind of boundary allows normal marital conversations without submitting to Joe Friday type interrogations?

"I don't know... ."... .or "I haven't considered it... ."


Would be a great answer.

And... .unless you and your office person text/communicate as soon as you wake up... .it is a truthful answer... .

If you make something up... .very likely you will get busted for lying.  They are very... .VERY... .perceptive.\

Plus... .here is the boundary that most nons need to get in your head... .

IMO... .people that are in a r/s do not have a "right" to unlimited questions and answers... .

So... .if you know the pattern... .and the pattern is destructive... .don't do the pattern any more.

This doesn't guarantee a better result... .but it does guarantee that you won't repeat the same mistakes.

Thoughts?

FF

[Notwendy]

My mom does that. Sometimes she sneaks the question into another part of the conversation. Then there is that "gotcha" moment. If she can't get it from me, she will try something else. I posted earlier about the time my mom asked me a question on the phone and I was in the car. I didn't know the answer and told her I would look it up when I got home. At that point she assumed I was hiding it on purpose and the interrogation started, but I didn't know the answer, honestly, I didn't know. Then, I found out later that she called someone else for it.

One thing to keep in mind that I think the questioning is driven by anxiety, as well as the need to know, but the anxiety belongs to them and I don't think we can necessarily help that. My strong guess is that your wife is afraid something will/is going on between you and your co-worker and there may not be much you can do to change that fear. The constant questioning comes from that fear-either to reassure herself or to catch you in a conflicting statement and "confirm" her suspicion.

I think for nons, we ask a question because we want to know the answer, not for another motive. Questions really set my H off. He sees them as some kind of attack, or he suspects that I am up to something. However, I am a straightforward person- I ask because I want to know an answer. However, if I do ask him something, it is not likely that he will give me a straightforward answer.

[IsItHerOrIsItMe]

My strong guess is that your wife is afraid something will/is going on between you and your co-worker and there may not be much you can do to change that fear. The constant questioning comes from that fear-either to reassure herself or to catch you in a conflicting statement and "confirm" her suspicion.

I think for nons, we ask a question because we want to know the answer, not for another motive. Questions really set my H off. He sees them as some kind of attack, or he suspects that I am up to something. However, I am a straightforward person- I ask because I want to know an answer. However, if I do ask him something, it is not likely that he will give me a straightforward answer.

Just for clarification, the co-worker is gay so the anxiety isn't because something might happen between me and her, but if she's gone and I have the office all to myself... .(which brings up the double standard, because my w has the house to herself every day.)

Your second point is right on, we certainly view questions differently... .and talking in general... .it seems there's no difference between agreeing and understanding.  So many conversations involve her re-explaining her view to me because in her mind I don't understand it (in my mind, I understand it, just don't agree with it... .)

[Notwendy]

I wonder why it bothers her if you have a place to yourself.

Does she think maybe you go there on purpose to get away from her?

Think that maybe you are up to something?

One thing to consider is projection- she might be accusing you of something she is thinking about or doing. I have no idea what that is. Maybe she is doing something- watching TV, calling friends, something that she feels bad about ( "I should be working" or something, I have no idea and it would be impossible to know.

It may not be something she is actually doing but something she fears. My H sometimes shows up unexpectedly at the house. I sometimes think he is trying to "catch" me with a boyfriend. There is no boyfriend. I don't think my H is cheating at the moment, and not sure he has. There was once a co-worker who was inappropriate with him. Not sure how far this went. I haven't cheated, but sometimes he gets this fear and it isn't based on anything either of us has done.

Sometimes my mom will get some idea and I have no idea why.

[IsItHerOrIsItMe]

I wonder why it bothers her if you have a place to yourself.

Does she think maybe you go there on purpose to get away from her?

Think that maybe you are up to something?

It may not be something she is actually doing but something she fears. My H sometimes shows up unexpectedly at the house. I sometimes think he is trying to "catch" me with a boyfriend.

I think this is a big part of it... .She came for lunch once and while we were at her car a female walked into the building.  I could watch her eyes as she followed her into the building (which was to my back, so I didn't see her) and asked her "What".  She replied that she wondered why the woman "looked like she wanted to say Hi"  I've lost track of the number of times she's brought it up as "evidence".

And ya know there was the time a female called the house asking for me but then wouldn't leave a message.  I'm amazed at the amount of information she has on that woman. 

However will she actually do something that would give her a definitive answer?  Of course not.  I've told her to have her brother call the phone number, ask for the woman and say he's me to see what she wanted... .Unfortunately she's smart enough to know her brother would tell her she's a nut... .

[paintingitblack]

I guess the basic boundary I have (and sometimes it can be blurred) is to explain my point of view but do so in a short and concise manner. I do not think it is wrong, and I actually find personal satisfaction in pointing out my BPD bf's hypocritical behavior when he is angry over an issue like this. It may not get through to him, but when I leave him without a response back I know in some way that is him admitting he is wrong without ACTUALLY admitting it. I do realize saying my point of view calmly can quickly turn into JADE however. I feel just because our loved ones have BPD doesn't mean you should not explain your viewpoint or even discuss it when they are upset. Occasionally my BPD bf will even bring up a logical point in discussion (rare when he is in one of these moods... .but even a broken clock is right twice a day). However when you know you're justified and they're being irrational I try to always remember to stand my ground. Don't apologize when you don't need to, or apologize for things you said later on after the "storm" calms down if you meant them at the time.

Walking that line between rational conversation between two adults and JADE is one I struggle with. I need to learn to simply say my viewpoint once, then let that be that. Way too often I end up beating a dead horse. I just implore all of us non's to look at ourselves equally as critically as we do our BPD partners. We are responsible for our own choices. I know many of us are MAJORLY co-dependent and that makes us just as sick as they are. That might be tough to hear, but I believe it to be true.

[Notwendy]

"I feel just because our loved ones have BPD doesn't mean you should not explain your viewpoint or even discuss it when they are upset."

I have no argument with your statement that many of us are co-dependent and as mentally not healthy as the person we are with. It isn't easy to hear, but I am grateful that our marital T sent me into 12 step co-dependency groups.

It's a fine line to walk between being enabling, and dishonest, and not being co-dependent, authentic and who we are. I agree that we need to be able to voice our reality, and we should not bend it for the pw BPD or anyone.

However, when dealing with someone with BPD, we should also keep in mind the function of projection, denial and dissociation. These are the heart of the problem. When the pwBPD is in a state of dissociation, they are in a way, out of their bodies, or at least their mind. They can't hear it, and they can't process it. This does not mean you don't state your truth, but for your statement to be effective, it is better said when they are not upset.

Sometimes, all we can do during the upset times is to not add fuel to the fire, wait until things are settled. I have been able to get my points across to both my H and my mother, when I wait for these moments. Then, if they seem to be triggered, I have to let them settle down.

We are dealing with a person with a mental illness or at least traits. This doesn't mean they are not accountable, and that we have to coddle them, or shield them from our truth, but if we want them to actually hear it, we can consider the timing of it, and how it is communicated.

[DearBFF]

I just wanted to give some input from another point of view, a relationship without sex... .  I am female and my BFF is female.  I believe she has BPD, but is not diagnosed although she is in therapy for depression, anxiety, and I believe PTSD as well.

I just started noticing her jealousy in a few recent incidents.  After one of her devaluation episodes during which she pushed me a way for a few weeks and yelled awful things at me over the phone she apologized and ended the discussion saying that when we saw each other next we should greet one another with a hug.  I explained how that made me nervous as sometimes over the last month (even before the devaluation) I'd go to hug her and she'd reject me, sometimes getting angry.  She explained she would not any longer and that she would accept my hug willingly.  I showed up to our shared barn and got out of my car, she was walking up smiling, but had her hands full with one horse lead in each.  I said hi and we exchanged a few words while she walked to put the horses away.  I assessed the situation and thought I'll wait until she's done with the horses for the hug, as her hands are full and in the past when I interrupt her working she gets enraged.  So when she disappeared behind the horses I walked around the opposite side of the barn to say hello to the other employees & volunteers.  One of which BFF cannot stand, but I have separated my relationships from hers so just because she stops talking to someone or hates them doesn't mean I have to, so I say hi to everyone and treat them kindly. 

I walked around the other side of the barn to greet BFF with her hug and had an employee with me (one she does like).  We found BFF in a stall furious as she inspected the job the stall cleaners had done, which she said was awful.  Employee and I were exchanging glances and preparing ourselves to run the other direction (common for EVERYONE when she gets angry).  So as BFF stormed off to confront the stall cleaners, the employee and I start walking away quickly (at that point I abandoned the hug as she was enraged so I saw no point).  As I stooped to pick up a piece of trash the employee and I paused as BFF yelled, "By the way HI!  I was only in that stall checking their work because you went and said HI to everyone but me, you didn't even give me a hug."  I tried saying how I was just about to do that before her blow up and when I first arrived I said hi, but thought I should save the hug for after she put the horses away when her hands weren't full.  She cut me off and yelled over her shoulder, "I hope you're happy!"  Employee and I ducked into the office out of earshot of the yelling and I did a reality check with her.  "You just heard that right?  Did it seem odd to you?  She's jealous because I didn't say hi properly fast enough?"  She agreed it was strange... .

After the stall clearers had enough of an earful and drove off, I decided I should check on her even though the employee looked at me like I was crazy!  So I go to say hello and her response was, "Some best f**king friend you are!  I was all happy we settled things and I was in such a good mood to see you and you just left me, you even said hi to HER (the one she hates) over me."  I tried talking, which I have learned is useless and by the end of that day I actually left early... .  So she got jealous and completely went off on the stall cleaners, who quit, and then she ended up having to clean stalls herself for weeks causing her awful back problems which led to a few emergency room visits during which she had to get shots because she was in such excruciating pain. 

This is about when I started going... .hmm, something is just not adding up here... .

Now after the most recent devaluation and her telling me to "Get out of her life!" she tried making a closer friendship with another volunteer only a week later.  That volunteer even made a facebook post about making a new friend for life tagging BFF.  Then only a week later I end up on the phone with the sobbing volunteer (whom I spoke to thinking I was going to get news of an attempted suicide by BFF or something).  The volunteer was sobbing asking, "Is she crazy or am I crazy?"  She relayed a conversation they had had and basically told me that BFF still refers to me as BFF (even though it's going on a month since she contacted me), and said we are taking a break.  BFF asked volunteer if we had spoken and when she said yes (not knowing about the recent drama) BFF told her that the volunteer could NOT be friends with me.  Apparently I am owned now, ... .

The thing is a few months back I had a sweet conversation with BFF (seemingly sweet to me, I see now how it could go the opposite way) during which she said she'd like to buy me a ring, because I was such a wonderful best friend and she didn't want another best friend ever and she didn't want me to have another either.  Thinking about it now any relationship she has with people we have in common, whenever she devalues me and she stops speaking to me she expects them to stop as well.  I realize since it's  mostly her family that they have been almost trained to do so by her... .they are walking on eggshells and don't want to upset her (or else she will start devaluing them and cut off contact with them).  I suppose it's because she is jealous if they talk to me (when she sees me as all black) and wants to control the situation and flow of information.

[Fresia*]

I am now split from my BPD, however hugely regret giving up on a friendship with a friend. I am straight and female and had a very good friendship with a female however my BPD could not tolerate the friendship at all. He made it so hard in the end I would not tell him I would see her for coffee etc. Once my BPD started hurting himself I. Felt I had to stop anything that would aggravate his mood so i cut ties completely with my friend. I miss her continuously and deeply regret not dealing with the situation better

I hope you make better decisions than I did, it sounds like you will.

[paintingitblack]

Thanks for all your feedback guys. This got more response than I ever thought it would. My BPD BF has calmed down about the situation. Unforunately although I did not budge and would not be emotionally manipulated I do think he (my BF) managed to guilt/pressure his friend into giving up talking to me. I infer this by the friend's typical semi-frequent messages the week prior to the incident compared to now with his lukewarm demeanor and lack of response to the one message I sent him. The loss of the friend in question who although I do think is a great guy, doesn't particularly bother me. Although it is unfortunate. We were not that close and only beginning to build a friendship when this incident happened. Truth be told half of me wants to message this friend and ask why he isnt talking to me anymore. Although it's probably obvious and not a good idea to stir the sh*t pot. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't curious to know what my BF said to seem like the innocent party or victim though. Granted I can't even blame the friend for "choosing" my BF over me if he was pressured with some sort of ultimatum. He was definitively closer to my BF, and knows nothing about BPD likely (he even stated this was the first time he had seen this "side" of my BF before). My BF and I are moving out of state in a month so this specific case is even slightly moot to me. Well perhaps not so moot because now I feel like there is zero chance of having this friend visit and stay with us. However that is my bf's call and his choices that make that being possible in the future impossible. Which is primarily his loss too because this is someone he considers one of HIS best friends. My BF grows close to friends and idealizes them quite quickly as "best friends" before something usually a lot of his own doing sabatoges the relationship. It looks like he avoided that fully happening here, which I am grateful for because I do think this friend is a positive influence in his life. How things stand with this awkward detente I think will prevent much in person interaction from this point forward between the three of us together, and that is too bad. Yet I know it is not in my control.

The principle of the matter I still do think matters though. He resents the fact I accused him of emotional manipulation. In the days sense calming I think he has fished for an apology from me for that statement, but I have not backed down. I have said I do not generally think he is emotionally manipulative but I believe he was being so in this case. When I get told "if you continue to do this or NOT do this, then you don't care about my feelings and your mind is on someone else" i stand by that being manipulative. Meaning the only way I can show regard to his feelings by this logic is to cease my platonic actions. These type of rash generalities on his part I think are only appropriate in the most severe of circumstances. Say if I were cheating on him and refused to give up my relationship with the "other man". This was very far from the case with me here.

Any advice about asking the friend what happened? I assume it is probably best to just let it go at this point? I just think the drama it may cause for my own peace of mind and pride (to defend myself from me sounding like the irrational one) would be a fools errand. Agree or disagree?

[Notwendy]

My mother tends to triangulate people. They are either on her side or someone else's side. When she is angry at me she can paint me black to them. This has included several family members on her side of the family. Like you mentioned- if I try to find out what was said it would mean stirring up thr drama pot and then they would be put in the middle of choosing her word or mine so I didn't do it.

My H does not do that but he can be critical of my friends. We used to have friends who were couples but we don't anymore so we are not invited to social groups as a couple. We really have no friends that we share. I found women friends- other moms mostly. He has some guy buddies. I wonder if it is even possible to have mutual friends as a couple.

[Notwendy]

I can think of some reasons for this. People who know my mom and also my H don't see the side of them that I do. Both of them have amazing social persona. If I were to see my H with his friends I would see that persona and he knows I know it isn't all real. He has accused me of showing my friends a better side of me than he sees. I think everyone is on good behavior in social situations but I think it's odd that he said that. However he gets jealous when I am friendly to other people. I have brought up the fact that I am sad that we don't socialize as a couple but it is easier on both of us when we don't.

For my mother, I know that she has lied about me and if the relatives asked me questions they would find out. I also know that she has painted me black to them. Sharing her family and friends would- I think- be a collision of two realities - mine and hers. I decided it was better not to.

[paintingitblack]

I guess part of me just wants to know what happened and where we stand. When the friend and I talked we discussed and agreed how hypocritical my BF was being. He would get very upset when a mutual friend of theirs would get jealous in a very similar fashion. I just hate not knowing what's up or what happened. Talking one day, now not at all the next. The not knowing where we stand bothers me more so than the loss of a potential friendship if that makes sense. It just feels awkward. I'll likely let it be and just mention it if he ever does contact me again.

[Notwendy]

I think it ok to contact him to clear the air. I would keep in mind the Karpmans drama triangle and try to stay out of that. Most likely the friend does not want to get in the middle of the drama and wants to be friends with both if you too- if he can.

It is possible that he feels he is being forced to choose between the two of you too.

The way I try to keep these things "off the triangle" is to keep the discussion on me " I value your friendship" instead of talking about my mother or H to the other person. I think it is ok to ask what your boyfriend said and clarify that but I would refrain from discussing him too much.

[paintingitblack]

I think it ok to contact him to clear the air. I would keep in mind the Karpmans drama triangle and try to stay out of that. Most likely the friend does not want to get in the middle of the drama and wants to be friends with both if you too- if he can.

It is possible that he feels he is being forced to choose between the two of you too.

The way I try to keep these things "off the triangle" is to keep the discussion on me " I value your friendship" instead of talking about my mother or H to the other person. I think it is ok to ask what your boyfriend said and clarify that but I would refrain from discussing him too much.

I'm sure he would like to be friends with both of us. As I said in the start of this thread, he was very much the "aggressor" of sorts who initiated contact and friendship with me. By messaging me on twitter several times then asking for my phone number before ultimately asking to hang out. I just imagine my boyfriend kind of gave a sob story ended by a "it's him or me" type deal, in which he chose him. Yet again I understand why he would... .they are very close and even work together. It is just a shame because he and I were getting along together quite well. Now for the foreseeable future as my boyfriend and him are still close, there is that elephant in the room with what happened. I will take a few days to think on it to see if I still want to contact him or feel as strongly in wanting to as I do now. As much as I want to clear the air... .I don't want to start more drama for my or HIS (the friends) sake.

[Notwendy]

Unfortunately where there is any dysfunction and 3 people involved there is likely to be drama. Dysfunction loves a triangle. For parents of middle school kids- it is known that a triangle is the most difficult friend group for them. It seems that it inevitably turns into a rotating 2 vs 1 situation. Dysfunctional / emotionally immature people do the same.

Although my H doesn't play the game to the extent my mother does - his jealousy / criticism of my friends has made it preferable for me to have my own friends. A recent example is that a friend of mine was somewhat rude. I know some backstory - this friend is going through some stress. I am inclined to ignore the slight but my H has made a point of it. When I started to tell the backstory - his response was "you just don't want to hear any criticism of your friend"

No point in JADE here. He has his opinion and he's already made up his mind about my friend and what I think ( although he doesn't have that right to determine what I think and I don't think what he thinks but I can't change what he chooses to think)

I'm past the point of wanting to share what I think in this case. I choose to keep my friend but you can see how being friends as a couple would now be a bit awkward.

[Notwendy]

Our partners might fit on the triangle and play their friends and family on it too. One way I assess the situation is if the other person is comfortable being on the triangle. I'm not so unfortunately I will choose to participate or not. I have found that long term friends of my mom are part of her triangle. You can talk to your friend and decide how to proceed from there.

[DearBFF]

Fresia*

I hope so!  I just started looking at my life and I always wanted a life with lots of friends/family (more quantity than quality), but I was looking at good, kind, fun, friendly people I wasn't reaching out to say hi to simply because BFF wasn't.  Then I realized during a devaluation that I felt crappy not having my phone calls answered or texts returned, and I thought that must be how they feel and they did nothing to deserve it.  So I reached out and said I'm trying to keep my relationships separate just because she has decided to not talk to you doesn't mean I can't, I like you let's continue to be friends.  So we did... .and still are in most cases.  Unfortunately, this does pose one thing I know she will not like.  I am going to need to institute a boundary of not allowing her to interrogate me about my other friendships.  I am a very open and honest person so when she would ask, who have you talked to, about what, about me?  I'd answer because to me if you ask things, you want the answer, well that just ended up blowing up my face.  She'd take what I said and turn it into some huge drama that it wasn't, not only that the words that had been said ended up being twisted into something that was not said which she would then be mad about.  It was exhausting just trying to go back and correct all the inconsistencies she'd create out of what I said... .so that's just going to have to be off limits.  If I bring up someone, hey so and so is having a great time at school or has a new boyfriend, etc... .That's fine catching up on friends is great, but I will not be interrogated, no good comes from it.  I'm realizing it's mostly her insecurity, she thinks if people mention her name at all then it must be bad, and they must be conspiring behind her back some evil plan they will someday spring on her.  When in reality it's simply, "Hey how is BFF doing?  Is she still with boyfriend?  How is her daughter doing?  Is the divorce going well?"  What she hears though is an entirely different story... .  The thing is I like these people, these friends, and I enjoy having then in my life.  Some of them have friends who are diagnosed bipolar and so they can understand when I'm coming from when I need to ask advice, they are also great to reality check with so I feel less crazy.  It occurred to me that I became so isolated at one point, I honestly felt like I was doing everything wrong and could do nothing right.  It took one of these friends finally listening to my story to say, "It's not about me" for me to actually start to believe that!

So far BFF can be very self-destructive but her behavior is generally only affecting her (although unfortunately sometimes her daughter as well).  While not as drastic as some I believe she does self harm in moments of stress; she picks her cuticles until they bleed (sometimes continuing after).  She has said before she has a fascination with blood but I have never seen any cutting scars and she models so those marks would be obvious in her pictures if she did cut.  I hope she never progresses to something like that, but I know that with (possible) BPD that is very possible; plus if she ever decides to no longer model and breaks up with boyfriend (so she doesn't have to worry about him seeing) I could see her resorting to cutting.

Sometimes we do the best we can with what we have.  I feel this is true of both people with BPD and people without BPD.  They do the best they can with their overwhelming emotions, and we do the best we can dealing with them.  Until both sides learn exactly what is happening and understand it, we cannot believe we'd have an inkling of forethought of dealing with some of the situations that arise.


paintingitblack

I've learned that my BFF honestly feels she has every right to pull something like pressuring/guilting people into not talking to me.  Plus I've noticed that for those who don't really see the situation as it happens or hear about it as it happens they only get one side.  So it's possible that with what little information they are given they may end up getting the impression that I am crazy/unstable, especially since BFF says things with her negative slant (leaving out anything she may have done to contribute to the situation) so she comes out the victim and then everyone wants to be on her side.  Plus with her family there has been at least one major situation I know of that came up when she was growing up where her family did not believe her, so now they take her at her word since they don't know that her word might be very far from the truth in reality as her reality is quite distorted.  No way to explain it though, so I just talk to them anyway and if they don't answer or it upsets her that's not my problem.  If they want me to stop they are grownups and they can ask.  When they do then I am happy to ask them why they are choosing to no longer talk to me and if she's the reason.  I would probably then ask them why they are letting a 23 year old woman decide who they can and cannot speak to?


Notwendy

Before BFF devalued me the first major time a few months back when she started dating new boyfriend, I think that BFF, boyfriend, hubby, and I would have been great friends.  We had a few "family game nights" (as she called them), and it was nice that we could always include the girls so they'd get to play together as well.  Thing is after the devaluation and BFF getting upset if I'd say something she didn't think boyfriend should know yet (for instance checking in to make sure she hasn't overslept when we have a morning meeting which I used to do all the time with whomever she stayed with so they could give her a nudge; mom, brother, then boyfriend), she was furious thinking it would give him the impression she was unreliable.  I bit my tongue hard to not say, "Well you are!" because I know she doesn't want people to see her that way.  Thing is I just realized that getting to know boyfriend just wasn't worth it to me, which may be part of why I got devalued.  If I had gotten to know him, then he might have gotten to see her a bit through my eyes but now she can go tell him "her side" and he'll never hear "my side" because we don't talk.  If she does stay with him though, and really lets him in so he can see behind the mask and I share the possibility of her fitting BPD and she decides to get treatment I could see us all being friends again and having more family game nights.  It was fun, we enjoyed one another's company, but if she is going to pit people against one another or not let him in so I can be myself around him then it just won't work.

I like what you said about trying to keep out of the triangle... .I'd like that very much 

[Notwendy]

My mother has a BFF since college. Once I was over and the friend kept trying to call. My mom would tell me not to answer the phone. Apparently, she was mad at the friend.

I couldn't take it, and when mom was out, I answered it. Yes, it was crossing a boundary, but she was a family friend, and so I decided to talk to her. I didn't discuss my mother. Later, they had reconciled. I've also gone through times as an adult where mom cut contact with me for one reason or another. Or she was mad at my kids and said it to them too.

This kind of thing can really hurt. I think this is why they do it. They hurt, so they feel they need to hurt us too. However, over time, I have seen this as an ebb and flow, kind of like the waves. I have to assume that for my mother's friend, she has come to see it this way too.

I know that it hurts to have your friend cut contact, and you miss her. I hope that you will see that this is more about her than you. I think in time, she will contact you. I'd be willing to bet that when she does, it will be as if nothing happened and that she will want you to forget it. This is how it seems to work, with my mom and my H, after they have devalued me and/or raged at me.

When/ if your friend returns it will be your choice to resume things or not.

[lbjnltx]

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