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Author Topic: How to move a functioning non-BPD/BPD relationship forward into marriage?  (Read 387 times)
pressonetohold

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« on: May 06, 2015, 06:07:55 AM »

Hello there,

I am a 30 year old male, in an relationship with a BPD woman, for well over 2,5 years. She receives help by an psychologist, which is is going well, she has accepted the diagnosis, all good sofar. She is a high functioning, very lively woman, interesting, well educated, the light of my life most of the time, and in general, I am very happy to be with her.

I do need some help sometimes tough, the rages, the projections, and having been blamed when we are out of contact, or when i'm getting too close, the running away, these things are taking their toll on me, leave me tired, hopeless and insecure at times.

Most interesting for me is to learn how others relationships might have developed in a positive manner, because I am hoping to take this relationship forward. We are stable, although we live apart, we both function. But the nature of our relationship, with the roller coaster thing going on quite regularly, makes me lose hope of ever taking some next steps, living together, making commitment. How to proceed?

I'm quite stable, and quite able to deal with the behavior of my love, I'll take the good and the bad, knowingly, and willingly, but am quite desperate to have some perspective of a shared future. And am looking for some insight from you guys.

Both input by the stayers among you, as insight from the BPD side of a story like this, are very welcome.

How did you cope? Struggled? Moved forward?

Sometimes my language, might be a bit unclear, as English is not my native language, Hi from the Netherlands!

Kind regards, Hold
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waverider
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« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2015, 09:09:56 AM »

The biggest issue is that when you are actually living with someone you as the non will struggle with the lack of respite to center yourself again. The pwBPD will also start to have issues about not having the same degree of control over their own life.

Have you thought of living together before potential marriage? As both steps are major triggers and to try to do both at same time is a big step.


Does she have any long term plans along these lines?
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pressonetohold

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« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2015, 10:58:12 AM »

Waverider,

Yes, we have contemplated both on more than one occasion, mostly on a light note, just seeing whether we have common interests in that direction. We both like the idea, but it seems we have trouble to progress in that direction, when we visit houses we might rent together, while being more or less serious about the matter, we end up fighting a lot of the time, setting us a few steps back. When we talk about marriage, or any other kind of official commitment, as marriage is not the only option we consider, seeing as we both have quite an open mind on the institution itself, we end up not being on speaking terms for a few days. We make up, in the next few days, and in a month or so, we try addressing the matter again.

(In the Netherlands there is registered partnership, marriage for church, state, and the diversion between having a prenup, and so on, as in many countries. Also we are of very different backgrounds, so we are by the nature of our backgrounds forced to hold a different position towards any kind of marriage anyway. The point is to make a public announcement of our intention of spending hopefully the rest of our days together, in a hopefully somewhat monogamous way)

It might be worth mentioning that we live very close to each other now, and have talked about the respite issue, as we have both the means as the wish to live in a place big enough to have each our own study which might serve as a private area at times.

A problem we have regularly is that we have trouble 'finding each other again' after having spend some days apart during the work-week, trying to meet up for the weekend. As solution might be to try and live together, hopefully having progressed to a point where we are respectful towards each others boundaries and needs. But how to get there? Right now we have seemed to reach a situation in which our relationship is mutually satisfying, but missing out on perspective of growth, a lot of the time seemingly caused by lack of close contact during the week. 

I feel like the will for doing so is there on both sides, but getting there seems to strand time over again. How to consolidate progress?

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formflier
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« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2015, 11:41:17 AM »

  We both like the idea, but it seems we have trouble to progress in that direction, when we visit houses we might rent together, while being more or less serious about the matter, we end up fighting a lot of the time, setting us a few steps back. When we talk about marriage, or any other kind of official commitment, as marriage is not the only option we consider, seeing as we both have quite an open mind on the institution itself, we end up not being on speaking terms for a few days. We make up, in the next few days, and in a month or so, we try addressing the matter again.

So... .the pattern you describe here... .is classic "push pull"

Do you see that? When you start to get closer... .it triggers something inside her... .and she pushes away... .which triggers a need for closeness... .and she pulls you back.

The role of the non is to try and walk a straight line... .and not be affected (too much) by the pushing and pulling.

My quick advice:  Don't bring this up to her for a couple months... .spend time on this site really learning about the "order to the disorder"... .learn about tools to exit arguments... .tools to prepare them to hear what you believe is important.

Then... .once you have seen the tools in action... .and have better perspective on what living together or marriage would be like... .make some better informed moves.

An alternate way of thinking:  It sounds like you have established a pattern or "dysfunctional dance" that isn't getting you moving forward in the r/s.  So... .what to do?  Dance a different dance. 

Note: That dance may not work either... .but at least if is different... .

Thoughts on these comments?

FF
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pressonetohold

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« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2015, 01:10:09 PM »

FF,

Indeed pushing-pulling, it is quite a dance. Luckily, we are both quite aware of what is going on, and both have intention to move in that direction, we have a common goal, we hear each other quite well, and I feel I hold command of a large part of the tools you mention already.

The catch being that we never really seem to take action in that direction, at least not with enough follow-trough to make thing happen in any constructive manner. Mind you, of my intentions with this relationship I have little doubt, neither do I have any on her part.

I/we do however have trouble consolidating the progress we make in that direction, we never seem to overcome the practicalities involved. We get up to a certain level of 'seriousness' (going on a search for houses, making (albeit vague) wedding plans. Etcetera, follow trough is low though, she/we scares easily.

Your advice on leaving it alone for some time, is a good one, I have done it sometime before, with the result that we have had to take all action leading up to getting anywhere near there again. But now with renewed vigor and enthusiasm, having quite the same result in the end.

I think I will make my/our efforts more gradual, trying to ease us into the idea, without letting it go altogether, quickly repairing any damage done to the process.

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formflier
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« Reply #5 on: May 06, 2015, 07:24:44 PM »

 

So... .hmm... .my first reaction is that you might want to start talking about "YOU" going towards marriage.  Not fighting about it... .just do it.

She either will... .or won't come along.

I would drop the "we" thing.

I get it... .that seems odd... .but you make your actions clear... .she will make her actions clear... .and then... .I think you will have a better idea of where she really stands.

If you "wait around"... .until she is ready and agrees to make a move... .I think you will be waiting for a while.

Again... .just first reaction... .  Do you think I am way offbase?  Or thinking in right direction?

FF
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waverider
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« Reply #6 on: May 06, 2015, 08:49:01 PM »

Is it perhaps an issue that you both operate on convenience hence that necessary compromising which is required is making it difficult to reengage. You are entrenched as individuals.

To be "together" in a more permanent sense means both of you giving up a lot of your personal agendas and schedules, this is hard for a pwBPD unless being closely bonded is highly imperative to a pwBPD, and ideally their idea not yours.

You raising the agenda will be received as a control threat, and so will be repulsed.

The task is to make it her idea and goal. Hence FF's recommendation about not pushing it too much for her to agree. ie you do what you feel is right by default without trying to get her agreement.

It takes frustration out of life if you pursue your preferred path by default until blatantly informed otherwise. waiting for someone else's decision leaves you eternally in limbo.

If she ultimately puts a stop to it, then that is her answer and you have to decide whether it is for you or not
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pressonetohold

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« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2015, 03:52:27 AM »

Formflier, Waverider,

Thank you very much for your insight, FF, no you are thinking in the right direction, I notice I have some trouble letting the 'we' thing go tough, partly because of my upbringing, which states firmly that 'where two fight, two are at fault' but this is not the case a lot of the time when dealing with my BPD love. Obviously. (I am so glad I can say such a thing over here) Also because I strongly believe, that moving towards more commitment, marriage hopefully, should be a shared activity.

I just do it, when we take this sort of action, but try to be responsive to her feelings upon the matter too. And she does come along, a lot of the way, then, she scares, it gets a bit messed up, and I let go of the initiative for some time, take a step back, trying to decrease (her) anxiety over the matter. And I try again after some time of cooling down.

FF, you very rightly state that marriage and living together are two different things, I might have over-stated my needs towards marriage a bit, although I strongly feel the need to move on towards a more definite form of commitment, ideally marriage, starting with living together. I'll leave that idea for a bit, focusing on living together. Waiting around? Yes, I do get how that might be not the thing to do. I have to take the initiative, and be more determined, and see what response might follow.

Waverider very rightly argues that we might be 'entrenched as individuals', and that a close bond, ideally on her initiative is very important. Ouch Waverider, you address a painful spot. For two reasons; First, you make me realize we are not there yet, indeed, we both operate on convenience at times, and indeed, we are not moving forward too much at present time. Second, you (both) make me realize, that that has a lot to do with my own lack of persistence in the matter. (at times)

Much of the need to form a stronger bond is already expressed by her, which is a plus, action in that direction lacking on her part though.

Slowly, I get the idea that I need to be more ready&prepared myself, before trying to move forward. I mean, I am not perfectly consistent in my actions and feelings myself sometimes, which is very counter productive in dealing with my BPD love. (right?) You both urge me to follow trough in what feels good and right for me, choose a path, and follow trough.

In conclusion, I think the best way to go for me, is to learn how to be more consistent in my actions and determination, without pressing the matter on her too much. Gradually, but consistently moving forward.

I have expressed some of this standpoint in my response to Caro-Lin's question over here;

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=275676.20

Thanks guys (I presume you are guys) you gave me some things to think about, and some new perspective on where to go look for progress (within myself). Main scope; bonding.

Please let me know whether my reasoning seems sound to you, taking into account that our relationship is relatively young, (2,5 years) and that I'm looking for some strength and hope in shared experiences.

I will educate myself more on BPD, also referring to Stalwart's response on my first topic, try to be the best partner I can be for her.

(It is basically the same question, I have tried to take it down, I did not want to be double-posting, but have not succeeded as of yet. I greatly enjoyed his response as it gives hope, and I share his feeling that 'we' are moving in the right direction) https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=276392.0

Again; thanks guys, you do great things here. I grow from you.

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waverider
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« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2015, 05:28:47 AM »

pwBPD lack consistency and are often riddled with self doubt. So they need others to provide this for them.

Even though at times it seems like they are trying to destabilize you, if you allow it to happen you end up in circular "go nowhere chaos".

Not being reactive in the moment, think things through carefully then act, confidently and consistently. It is the best way to gain respect from a person with insecurity issues, they want someone to take responsibility for the hard decisions.

You can lead but you can't make someone follow, but without leading you dont go anywhere and things stay the same.
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formflier
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« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2015, 06:03:45 AM »

Much of the need to form a stronger bond is already expressed by her, which is a plus, action in that direction lacking on her part though.

This is classic... .textbook... .BPD behavior.  Try to understand that when she expresses it... .she is acting on her feelings... .expressing her feelings... .it is real to her. 

Then... .when she backs out... .it is exactly the same.  There is no inconsistency to her... .she is acting on her feelings... .that is her reality at that moment.


Slowly, I get the idea that I need to be more ready&prepared myself, before trying to move forward. I mean, I am not perfectly consistent in my actions and feelings myself sometimes, which is very counter productive in dealing with my BPD love. (right?) You both urge me to follow trough in what feels good and right for me, choose a path, and follow trough.

Hmmm... .not sure I would express it the way you did. 

Here is my take... .Waverider is very skilled at "boiling it down" to a shorter form... .hopefully he'll add his nuance to this... .

If you are in love with a pwBPD traits (as I am... .and yes... .I'm a guy)... .express that love... .live that love... .and stay on that path 

The changing moods will introduce lots of rabbit trails... .ignore them.

One warning:  When she starts expressing that you don't love her anymore because... .(fill in blank... .)  validate her feelings... .DO NOT PROVE YOU LOVE TO HER... .   

That is a very "dudeish" thing to do... ."I'll prove myself... ."  And very unhelpful to BPD r/s. 

Thoughts on this?

FF
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waverider
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« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2015, 06:35:50 AM »

One warning:  When she starts expressing that you don't love her anymore because... .(fill in blank... .)  validate her feelings... .DO NOT PROVE YOU LOVE TO HER... .   

This is very important and a trap we all fall into. It is our rescuer nature to reassure someone that they have nothing to worry about. But what you are actually doing is telling them (in their mind) they have no right to their feelings, that they are wrong=very invalidating.

Acknowledge you hear what they are saying and can see how they are feeling. Then state what you feel, but dont try to sell it. They have to choose to believe without feeling pressure.

You know how you feel when you are wanting to buy say a car but are concerned about condition, when a salesman tells you that you have no need to worry... .You worry. If they simply state the facts about it and leave you so that you can test it yourself you feel better about your choice.

Most folks procrastinate, constantly weighing up pros and cons and eventually making a decision. pwBPD suffer from rapid impulsive decision making. They think of a pro and its a yes, think of a con and its no, then a pro, back to a con. This leads to yes/no/yes/no. Nothing gets done, it has the same end result as procrastinating, except everyone else involved gets jerked around in the process.

It's almost like thinking aloud without a filter, each thought is genuine at that moment, just not fully thought through. Once you accept their decisions as not fully developed conclusions, only "proposals' you learn not to chase red herrings.

It is important that you are the opposite, think things through and be consistent in your decisions. Be the yin to their yang. It is the only way you can function as a combined unit
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pressonetohold

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« Reply #11 on: May 07, 2015, 11:25:00 AM »

FF,Waverider,

The "I'll prove myself trap" I have fallen into at many occasions, indeed not helpful whatsoever, what I recognize that she then goes into 'you don't believe me/understand it/take me seriously -mode' so to speak.

Instead, I tend validate her feelings, doing so without seeming patronizing is quite a trick btw, as she is smart, and sometimes retaliates, when she knows/feels that I am not engaging.

Then I try to take (emotional) distance, in the sense that I express how I think it is, indeed without pressuring, (which leaves me with some frustration sometimes, as I am taking a lot of low-blows in the process) and give her some time to cool down, and over think what has been said.

Most of the times, I would say 85% of the time, this de-escalates the situation, and we find common ground quite quickly. In the other 15% of cases, we take a few days apart to find our grounds again. Not ideal, but a peanuts in comparison to how it has been in the beginning sometimes.

But that is not my problem so much, of course things get out of hand some times, I lose my cool, or the underlying problem, really is a problem, where 'normal' couples would have trouble too. Which is ok, although a bit more of a 'lively experience' in our case. 

Waverider, what you say about procrastination really resounds over here, I think this is what I mean FF, when I talk about when I talk about choosing a path, and follow trough. Avoiding being side-tracked by red herrings/rabbit trails, make up my mind first, having a sense of where she wants to go from all the fuss, and slowly move on in that direction. Being the opposite in that aspect.

Yep, but I'm not there yet, hence my conclusion that I need to grow a bit first, and only then take appropriate action in moving forward. First stabilizing what we already have, (which is a lot) then move forward consistently. I tend to procrastinate myself still, and I am used to do this in a deliberative, sharing way. I tend to talk a lot, and to put any definite decisions off for a long time. Not an ideal combination it seems.

Sure good to talk, it clears my mind, I find strength and recognize so much over here. Thanks!

I should remind myself to be reading more over often here, I feel I have done a lot on my own already, her too btw, and that we function quite well as it is. But there definitely is value in trying to make things go more smoothly, and to learn to have more steady hand with the tools available, to take up on the lingo over here.

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waverider
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« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2015, 05:42:42 PM »

I think you are doing quite well already Doing the right thing (click to insert in post).

The problem I had a lot, and occasionally do, is coping with the fact that to a degree life will always drift with the current with little chance of reaching an end result. So if goals keep changing how important is that if you rarely get there?

Enjoying the journey rather than putting too much store in end goals. If an end goal eventuates thats great, but the vast % of life is spent on the journey, so that is where the biggest payback is if you can take the pressure out of that.

If you break the stuck in Groundhog Day feeling and keep doing fresh things then you don't get so down.
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pressonetohold

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« Reply #13 on: May 10, 2015, 08:45:47 AM »

Waverider,

Your "stuck in Groundhog Day" reference I had to google,  Yep, it seems like an infinite loop sometimes, at others we are trying to build on what is there, trying to move forward. And I feel we still do, emotionally for sure, you relationship progresses, although with a bit more extreme ups and downs, the line goes upward an forward I feel. Good. Practically we tend to get stuck though, and that is my pain sometimes.

Might be that she is more settled than I am, (she is a but older) and with the BPD, things are not bound to change as quickly as I might like. Hm, yeah, of course, life is a journey, but without setting, or, working for goals, little progress is made in this journey. Or, you might say, the direction get very uncertain.

But the good thing is, I realize that I might take it a bit more in my own hand, setting goals, at least for myself, and partly for the two of us, as you mentioned; " you can lead but you can't make follow" no, but I can give directions, options and opportunities, and facilitate possible growth/directions.

Which is quite awesome, and gives some direction to my thinking and some hope. Indeed, sometimes it is frustrating in a way that gets me down, but having a bit more of a sense that I might have influence on the outcome makes me feel good.

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