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Author Topic: Shoes in house dysregulation  (Read 556 times)
formflier
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« on: May 07, 2015, 01:05:32 PM »



Well... .I should have know one was coming today... .with the dog bit stress of yesterday.

I was surprise how well she did today... .lots of fun things... .

I have been outside working on a vehicle... .she came out couple times... .pleasant.

So... .I walk in house and she is fixing lunch... .


I said something about smells good... .she slammed a pot down and went to another room.

Hmm... .

She came out in a couple minutes and went to another room and sat.

I went in with some cold water... .sat next to her... .touched her leg... ."hey... .how are you doing."

She seemed to struggle for words... .

Well... .she started that the house was filthy... .I disagree... .but didn't tell her so.

She went on to say that she was expected to take her "only" day off and spend all day cleaning.

I told her that was frustrating... .but that I certainly didn't expect that of her... .and I wouldn't want to have to do that on my day off.

Not exactly set... .but... .I was in the moment. (looking for suggestions for next time... .this is common theme.)

Well... .then it was that I didn't care about her... .the house was filthy... .nobody else cleans it... .and I never wear shoes inside anyone elses house... .and that's how she knows I don't care for her.  (note... .not true on shoes and other houses)

Anyway... .I stayed calm... .pointed at the shoes on her feet... .didn't say a word and she said the only reason she was wearing shoes is the house was filthy... .and then she went for it.

I grabbed a sandwhich... .went outside to the truck and enjoyed my meal.  She blew for about 5 minutes.

zero trigger in me... .that is good! Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

I went back in a few minutes after it got quiet... .sat next to her... .gave kiss on cheek and said "we'll get through this... ."

She started back up... .but a couple levels lower about me not caring... .and now she referenced names of people that I don't wear shoes in their house.

I exited again.

She appears to be taking a nap with youngest girls... .

Thoughts... .suggestions... .?

Sigh... .

FF

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« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2015, 01:21:57 PM »

It sounds like you are handling it well. Can you just keep doing what you are doing? It sounds like you validated her feelings. Your use of SET is about how I do it. My husband tends to not take the "truth" part well, so I often leave that off, rather than have an argument. I mean, they seem to be fighting for their truth to be the only truth, so why bother?

I'm interested to see what others suggest, because I feel I often deal with these circular type arguments and "blame"(for lack of a better term) too... .
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« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2015, 01:24:32 PM »

She went on to say that she was expected to take her "only" day off and spend all day cleaning.

How about this?  "Wife, why do you feel the need to spend all day cleaning?"  That way you aren't taking any responsibility for her feelings (seems she is projecting) and yet asking her why she feels that way?

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« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2015, 01:28:22 PM »

Next time ask her "what can I do to help?"

This is validating. Shows you care. She may not even want you to help, but more the offer. Kind of like when I plan to pay for dinner with a friend. Friend reaches for the check. I say "no, I got this". But I appreciate the offer.

Does your wife have OCD by chance? I have the awful "neat freak" OCD. Whenever I'm stressed, the house suddenly becomes "filthy" even when it's clean! If someone were to ask me what's stressing me or how they can help, the house starts to look cleaner... .


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« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2015, 01:41:01 PM »

Thoughts... .suggestions... .?

You're much more of an expert than me, but fwiw I have recently found more success in not following the traditional advice here (SET etc). I've come to see it as enabling. It is, however, definitely better than JADE which is what I spent 10 years doing... .

Anyway, my latest plan is to simply state, quite plainly and forcefully (but avoiding being nasty or shaming, of possible) that whatever she is ranting about is not true, makes no sense, and I'm not going to accept it. I also state that I very much understand that she's upset and if there's anything specific I can do to help, let me know. Then I leave. I return some time later with a friendly demeanor, ask about some household issue, whatever. I've found that she is typically friendly back. Not all-out white-mode, but generally things return to normal from that point. Essentially call the bluff and make it clear that you're not going to fall for such obvious BS, but if they want to be adult and reasonable, then hey... .let's go. I've also realized that those of us in a very long-term BPD r/s will have been trained early on not do this. This is because initially the pwBPD will simply exit the r/s when presented with a partner who will not put up with their ways, and move on to seek another more amenable partner. So you learn by experience to try to placate them. But once you're a decade in with children, the calculus is different. They have much more to lose by bailing out, and hence you can adopt a more rational, less defensive approach without incurring blow-back.

btw the story about the house not being clean is textbook uBPDw for me. Years ago I spent some time learning all the (otherwise opaque) details of most of the cleaning tasks and now I go ahead and clean some thing or other on a regular basis on my own time. We also do "cleaning days" where we both clean the house together. There was a lot of push back initially against this (of course... .since it is a reasonable logical solution to a stated problem Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)). To do this you need a flexible work schedule which thankfully I have (my entire life having been designed to allow working within the BPD way of things).

Good luck. Probably this all comes from the dog incident, of course.







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« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2015, 02:34:38 PM »

 


Well... .she started that the house was filthy... .I disagree... .but didn't tell her so.

She went on to say that she was expected to take her "only" day off and spend all day cleaning.

I told her that was frustrating... .but that I certainly didn't expect that of her... .and I wouldn't want to have to do that on my day off.

Not exactly set... .but... .I was in the moment. (looking for suggestions for next time... .this is common theme.)

Well... .then it was that I didn't care about her... .the house was filthy... .nobody else cleans it... .and I never wear shoes inside anyone elses house... .and that's how she knows I don't care for her.  (note... .not true on shoes and other houses)

Is this a BPD thing or a mom thing? I ask because I hear a lot of this in mom circles. There are times when it feels like the house is never clean. There are times when it feels like the toy boxes and dirt are having orgies and procreating while I have my back turned. It feels like cleaning is a never ending job when there are so many kids in the house.

I seem to recall that you have said similar things about feeling like you do a lot of cleaning and stuff around the house. No matter how much or how little is done by me or my husband or my kids it does feel like the house is always dirty and nobody cleans it. I am wondering if you can tap into that and be sincere about saying something like, "I hate that feeling. There are so many people living in this house that it would take superwoman/superman to keep up with all that needs to be done around." I hate it when I am expressing normal frustration at a situation and my husband looks at me like I am nuts.

As far as her cleaning on her day off goes. . .that sounds like pretty normal mom guilt. A lot of the moms that I know with a bunch of kids, myself included, feel guilty if we are not cleaning when we think we should. It is about the expectations that I put on myself based on what I think a good mother should do. It has nothing to do with my husband or anybody else. It is about me and what I think I should be doing. I can look around my house no matter how clean or dirty it is and see something else that I need to do.

Excerpt
Anyway... .I stayed calm... .pointed at the shoes on her feet... .didn't say a word and she said the only reason she was wearing shoes is the house was filthy... .and then she went for it.

How about a little humor? I would have been so tempted to respond with something like, "Wow, now you understand why I wear shoes in the house so much. You are right. The house is filthy." I know how a response like that might be received but it sure would have been tempting.

Excerpt
She started back up... .but a couple levels lower about me not caring... .and now she referenced names of people that I don't wear shoes in their house.

Is this an issue that you want to argue over? I see that you exited at this point and that was probably a good thing. What do you think might have happened if you had shrugged and said something along the lines of, "Hmmm. . .I hadn't really noticed. Thank you for calling it to my attention. I will try to be more mindful of it in the future." (Or something along those lines.) On issues that I think are completely friggin' stupid, I kind of shrug and say something along the lines of "Hmmm. . .I hadn't really noticed. I'll take your word for it and try to pay more attention to it."
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« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2015, 02:44:14 PM »

 

How about a little humor? I would have been so tempted to respond with something like, "Wow, now you understand why I wear shoes in the house so much. You are right. The house is filthy." I know how a response like that might be received but it sure would have been tempting.

You are a genius!  I will try this next time.

The "rules" probably say I shouldn't have pointed at her shoes... .but that is a bit much for me... .she has been coming in and out all week in shoes... .and all of a sudden... .poof... .it matters... .

No consistency... .

But... .I am going to practice that line... .and use it!

FF
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« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2015, 02:46:21 PM »

Next time ask her "what can I do to help?"

Unfortunately... .I have tried this and have given up asking this... .if there is any "edge" to her.

She responds with "listen to me... .if you had done xyz when I told you... .I wouldn't be upset... .etc etc."

"What would you like me to do right now... ."... .also will bring a torrent of you should have listened better a week ago... .or any time other than right now.

She is very reluctant to take a stand on what I should do now... .because that somewhat restricts her ability to b___ and complain about the results... .

FF
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« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2015, 02:48:47 PM »

Next time ask her "what can I do to help?"

Unfortunately... .I have tried this and have given up asking this... .if there is any "edge" to her.

She responds with "listen to me... .if you had done xyz when I told you... .I wouldn't be upset... .etc etc."

"What would you like me to do right now... ."... .also will bring a torrent of you should have listened better a week ago... .or any time other than right now.

She is very reluctant to take a stand on what I should do now... .because that somewhat restricts her ability to b___ and complain about the results... .

FF

Been there... .Done that... .Got the T-Shirt... .It's funny, when I go over to my wife's house, I always try and do something to help her because I want to.  She always says, "You don't have to do that."  I do it anyway to show that I love her and want to help.  Otherwise that, "You never do this or that" crap rears its ugly head... .
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« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2015, 03:32:03 PM »

Anyway, my latest plan is to simply state, quite plainly and forcefully (but avoiding being nasty or shaming, of possible) that whatever she is ranting about is not true, makes no sense, and I'm not going to accept it. I also state that I very much understand that she's upset and if there's anything specific I can do to help, let me know. Then I leave. I return some time later with a friendly demeanor, ask about some household issue, whatever. I've found that she is typically friendly back. Not all-out white-mode, but generally things return to normal from that point. Essentially call the bluff and make it clear that you're not going to fall for such obvious BS, but if they want to be adult and reasonable, then hey... .let's go.

I agree with this. This is what works best for me, and I only discovered how to do it once I knew what BPD was. If I can remain calm, no matter how far gone he gets, then act like nothing out of the ordinary happened when we get back together, suddenly all the bad attitude is gone. YMMV.
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« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2015, 03:32:58 PM »

I see this from a different perspective. It isn't about the shoes.

You guys have been through a traumatic event that at some level, your wife carries some responsibility for. This would trigger some toxic, self anhilating shame that has to go somewhere. They have to project this outwards as they can not acknowledge that this bad feeling is part of them. Dysregulations come from that shame. The shame has to land somewhere.

It landed on the house and the shoes. However, if not for that, it could have landed on something else.

By focusing on the shoes, and getting upset about the house, the focus is deflected from the original source of the bad feelings. It doesn't matter what you say or do. She's not going to let go of the house/shoes issues, unless she finds something else to project her bad feelings on to.

I hope the neighbor child is OK. This was very traumatic. In a parallel universe, your wife would speak about how badly she feels about that. Although you also feel some responsibility, it was also an accident- something neither of you did intentionally or predicted. I wish you all healing.

I would be empathetic but not focus on house/shoes, but just her feelings.
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« Reply #11 on: May 07, 2015, 05:04:54 PM »

Sorry FF. I was speaking more from an OCD perspective... .which sometimes has a BPD look to it. I can go from normal to mental over nothing at times... .even having a meltdown once over... .shoes.  Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)

Like Notwendy says, it's probably not about the shoes at all.

I think what VOC said makes a lot of sense too. I hear the same from a lot of moms who seem overwhelmed by never-ending housework and the guilt of trying to be a supermom. I'm also going to steal her line "hmm, hadn't really noticed... .I'll take your word for it and try to pay better attention." Those words could've stopped a lot of JADEing on my end. The jewels of wisdom on this board are priceless!
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« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2015, 06:49:16 PM »

 

I'm the OCD one of the family. 

Pilot's... .good ones... .tend to gravitate towards that.  Do the checklist in the same order... .nothing gets missed.

Things have a reason... .the order of things has a reason... .

I think notwendy has the best theory so far. 

I was amazed at how pleasant my wife was this morning... .it was like a lightswitch... .
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« Reply #13 on: May 07, 2015, 06:51:09 PM »

something neither of you did intentionally or predicted. I wish you all healing.

I would be empathetic but not focus on house/shoes, but just her feelings.

I don't want to say I exactly predicted this... .but I was clear that nothing good one come of the pathway they (lead by my wife) were on with dogs. 

A bit over a year... .the results are in.  Not good.

Sigh... .

Your theory is most likely spot on... .

FF
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« Reply #14 on: May 08, 2015, 06:23:23 AM »

She was feeling not in control of life in general is my guess. So controlling the "dirt" was the one thing she was focusing on to center herself, so any transgression of that issue in that moment was seen as a threat leading to total loss of control.

So maybe don't address the issue but broaden the conversation to bring her back to a mindfulness of the bigger picture, but not by deliberately diminishing her "issue" but rather subtle redirecting
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« Reply #15 on: May 08, 2015, 04:34:29 PM »

 Doing the right thing (click to insert in post) I think your original post showed that you are doing very well already... .going away and not being triggered when provoked is excellent.

I'm wondering if your biggest problem is that you expect to be able to 'fix'  your wife's horrible mood somehow if you can do the right thing, or learn the right tools... .

... .and that one ain't gonna happen.

Just like an airplane isn't gonna take off without fuel, no matter how many other things you do right.

Keep working on more ways to validate your wife (outside these crises).
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« Reply #16 on: May 08, 2015, 05:35:07 PM »

Good grief.  I nearly bust out laughing - sorry   If I have not been through the exact same thing, it has been almost identical.

From the experience with my wife, and my mom prior to that (who has some BPD traits), I can say there must be something there about the division of work.  I remember my dad could be busting his tail off to fix something outside in 100 degree weather, and the minute he came inside mom would be on his case about being dirty, bringing dirt into the house, or not doing the dishes.  I deal with the same.  I can work all day, come home, have to mow the lawn because the city is on my case, come inside and W is complaining about how dirty I am, how my whose are dirty, how the sink is full of dirty dishes, or how there is cat hair on the floor.  I could understand her argument if I was actually outside doing something fun, or if she had spent the whole day cleaning instead of laying in bed

I think there is also a gender role thing at play here.  House cleaning has a stigma of "servant work" or  "woman's work".  So when a woman feels like somehow that is her job, she often becomes resentful.  So when we come in with dirty shoes from an afternoon of yardwork, they feel like they are our servants and beneath us.  Of course that is not the case (at least for me) - I could care less if I was washing dishes, doing laundry while she mowed the lawn and changed the oil (actually, I do all of the above - her contribution is to load/unload the dishwasher about every other time).
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« Reply #17 on: May 09, 2015, 07:54:08 AM »

Max, I think you hit it with "servant's work". I think that is how my H sees it which is why he refuses to do it. I think this is also why those of us who are charged with those duties- when a man refuses- feel so resentful and also, so grateful when a SO pitches in. It sends the message " you are not my servant".

Throw BPD into the mix- someone with low self esteem might need to really fight the servant idea and also relish the idea that someone else is their servant. My mom has ways of coercing me to do the dishes. It is pretty irritating, because of the coercion. She likes to be "above " me. It could be a reason why my H's refusal to do them bothers me.

To be fair, I don't expect my H to be the chief wage earner and to do all the housework, although when I was working full time ,he didn't do it either. What I do wish is once in a while, just saying "I'll do them" as a gesture that he doesn't play into the servant role.

Years ago, in college, I got super busy- I don't know why -I may have been stressed over finals, but a boyfriend at the time came over, saw the dishes in my sink, and just did them as a favor for me, to cheer me up. Now this guy was not perfect by any means, and the relationship was temporary, yet, I still remember the gesture because it was so touching to me. My H refused dishes even when we were dating and I cooked for him. I didn't see it as a problem, but thought it was quirky.

In the end, I don't care about it enough to make it a point of contention. I have been doing them for so long, it is just automatic. I get the irritation with a pw BPD if the household tasks are so unevenly distributed and they still complain. I don't know what mom did all day- , but between us kids and my father, who also worked, and the help he hired, there wasn't much else for her to do. My H's thing is that since he does work, if he does what he sees as "my work" it is unfair because then he is doing two jobs. He thinks that if he does do something like do the dishes then I will take advantage of him or something. Not sure where that comes from as I have not done that.  
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« Reply #18 on: May 11, 2015, 09:17:30 AM »

Good grief.  I nearly bust out laughing - sorry   If I have not been through the exact same thing, it has been almost identical.

The silliness of it all... .actually helped me deal with it better... .

I was having a pretty good day anyone... .really enjoying working on my project.  I was solving stuff... .getting stuff done.

I even know I probably shouldn't point at her shoes... .but... .chose to "break the rules"... .and suffer whatever consequences there were... .

Nothing long term came out of it... .

Seems to have blown itself out.

FF
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