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Author Topic: More on enabling, supporting, etc. . .  (Read 371 times)
vortex of confusion
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« on: May 07, 2015, 05:59:07 PM »

I wanted to continue the discussion about supporting our partners.

The two related threads are:

Thread 1: How to tell the difference between enabling and being a supportive spouse

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=275710.0;all

Thread 2: Enabling vs. supporting continued. . .

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=275982.0;all

Before the thread was locked, Leaving said some things that I wanted to address:

Excerpt
I meant to tell you in regard to the crumbs your husband left when he mopped that it was good that you didn't say anything to him because I'm sure he left them there as a reason for you to point out his inadequacies.  This relates to him seeking that reinforcement that ' he's no good'.  You mentioned once something about how he was never worthy in his mother's eyes.  Well, that's how my husband grew up and so he does the same thing. It's really difficult not to take their behavior personally given that it is targeted at us but actually, they are not targeting us personally, they are targeting the role that we are assuming in the relationship.  I'm the parent and adult and my husband is the man-child. It seems crazy that someone would seek that kind of reinforcement but it's a way to self sabotage and prove that mom or dad was right about them all along.

I don't feel like he does things to get me to point out his inadequacies. I feel like he is that much of a space cadet. I feel like he lacks confidence. And, I also attribute it to the fact that he doesn't pay that much attention to detail on some things. He and I have different standards. For example, I am more picky about some things than he is. There are other things that he is more picky about. I don't understand why he is picky about some things and not others just like he doesn't understand why I am picky about some things and not others.

I don't feel like it is helpful to assign negative intentions to my husband's behavior. I am trying to get to a place where I carefully decide what is worth responding to and what isn't. If I choose NOT to respond to something or point out something, I want it to be because I genuinely don't care about it or don't care enough to bring it to anybody's attention. It is about picking my battles. In picking my battles, I want to be more mindful of why I am choosing (or not choosing) certain battles. I am thinking that MY goal is to pick my battles according to what I think/want/value rather than according to how my husband may or may not react.

This also leads me to another question that I have been pondering that I think is related:

How does one translate what one is thinking into something that is more acceptable?

I am thinking about S.E.T. There are times when I absolutely do not support something about my husband and I am completely unable to empathize with him.

For example, in my head, I might be thinking:

Are you friggin' crazy? No. I do not understand you. I do not forgive you. And I sure as heck am not going to validate some feeling that is based on your distorted perception of reality. You want ME to listen to you and hear you yet you can't do the same for me. You are upset and beating yourself up because you are having the face the consequences of your actions. What did you think would happen when you treated me/whoever like that? Did you think that you could do it forever? What the heck makes you think you are so special that you don't think that there are consequences? You must be a special kind of stupid.

OR

Something even more concise like go eff yourself.

Then, I take a deep breath, and pause before saying something that is watered down and nice and comes out more like:

Mmm, hmmm. . .I see.






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jcarter4856
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« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2015, 11:02:52 PM »

Are you friggin' crazy? No. I do not understand you. I do not forgive you. And I sure as heck am not going to validate some feeling that is based on your distorted perception of reality. You want ME to listen to you and hear you yet you can't do the same for me. You are upset and beating yourself up because you are having the face the consequences of your actions. What did you think would happen when you treated me/whoever like that? Did you think that you could do it forever? What the heck makes you think you are so special that you don't think that there are consequences? You must be a special kind of stupid.

Chuckle. I've come close to uttering the text above twice now. Actually it "worked" pretty well. At least better than all the SET'ing I've done.

Best I've come up with as a translation into PC-speak is "I can see you're very upset". Not real great, but probably better than "What the heck?".





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vortex of confusion
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« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2015, 11:16:24 PM »

Best I've come up with as a translation into PC-speak is "I can see you're very upset". Not real great, but probably better than "What the heck?".

Maybe I am a bit BPD because when somebody says something like "I can see you're very upset." it makes me kind of mad. I am thinking of times when my husband has said something like that to me and the kind of response it prompted, which was something like, "No s**t Sherlock. Upset doesn't even BEGIN to describe how I am feeling at the moment. Upset is just the tip of the iceberg." For me, platitudes like that tend to get under my skin for a whole host of reasons.

I had one friend that used to validate my feelings in the oddest of ways but it was sincere. I would go on and on about being upset about my husband and he would just say "skillet", which alluded to the old joke about a woman bopping her husband with a skillet. I would never do that and he wasn't advocating that however it felt real and it felt sincere and it acknowledge that he knew I wasn't happy.

The other reason that I have a problem with statements like "I can see that you're very upset" is that, in a round about way, it is actually trying to name the emotion for the other person. I know that a lot of people here, myself included, have complained about our partners trying to tell us how we feel. Stating something like this feels a bit like trying to name their emotion.

People are complex human beings and trying to boil an emotion down to one word can, I don't know, cheapen the emotion or take away some of the complexities. I stumbled upon something that I wrote with regards to parenting and that was one of the things that I wrote. Don't try to put a name on another person's emotions because it can feel invalidating because the label you give it may only be a small piece of the puzzle.

Hmmm. . .more stuff to think about!
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jcarter4856
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« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2015, 11:39:01 PM »

Maybe I am a bit BPD because when somebody says something like "I can see you're very upset." it makes me kind of mad. I am thinking of times when my husband has said something like that to me and the kind of response it prompted, which was something like, "No s**t Sherlock. Upset doesn't even BEGIN to describe how I am feeling at the moment.

Oh, actually that's totally the intended outcome from me saying that Smiling (click to insert in post)

In my situation, uBPDw tends to clam up, says nothing but clearly mad as all heck about something.

So I typically leave her to stew for a day or two, depending on how busy things are around the house at the time (because 50% of the time she defuses herself within a day or two).

Then I'll approach her and say "I can see you're very upset".

This has the exact effect you describe above.

She unloads. I respond. Things begin to get back to normal.

On second thoughts... .perhaps "What the heck?" is the better thing to say!


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Jessica84
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« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2015, 11:53:08 PM »

I'm kind of the same way VOC. I don't like being told how I feel. My ubf is the world's worst mindreader! He tells me I'm mad when I'm not... .until I am... .

But he likes it when I am able to correctly identify and validate his emotion. He even has a look of relief on his face when I "get" it. One time he was completely disregulating over something that happened at work. I listened for a long while before speaking. We had this ridiculously long discussion about it (actually I tried to talk about other things, but he kept bringing it back up every few minutes all friggin day long!) By the end of the day I was tired and starting to doze off on the couch. Honestly, I was bored of it... .My "I'm sorry you're upset" thing hadn't helped all day. I told him I'm sorry that happened. It's humiliating to be treated that way.

He got that look on his face. I hugged him and went to bed. A few minutes later one of his friends called. As he's relaying the same story to the friend I hear him shrieking from the other room "I felt humiliated!" ding-ding-ding! Humiliation was the correct emotion. Only took me 12 hours to figure it out... .
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waverider
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« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2015, 06:09:43 AM »

What you really want is to get to the stage where all the small stuff barely blips on your radar so you dont even have to bite your tongue.

Then the important stuff that does you can state quite clearly that "regardless of how it affects you it makes me unhappy" Taking the distorted mind reading out of it, as I am sure it shows even if you don't say anything.

If you don't repeat it, but have stated it openly at least once it reduces the frustrations from bottling up.

For example wherever my partner seems to have made "her spot" in the house there is a build up of rubbish. Can drive me nuts, now that I have stated it makes me unhappy, it has been said, she heard it, knows it, still does little about it, but somehow it seems to bother me less. I don't tell her to do anything about it (would be futile anyway). Its about how it affects me, so its not an attack.
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vortex of confusion
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« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2015, 09:03:57 AM »

What you really want is to get to the stage where all the small stuff barely blips on your radar so you dont even have to bite your tongue.

Then the important stuff that does you can state quite clearly that "regardless of how it affects you it makes me unhappy" Taking the distorted mind reading out of it, as I am sure it shows even if you don't say anything.

If you don't repeat it, but have stated it openly at least once it reduces the frustrations from bottling up.

For example wherever my partner seems to have made "her spot" in the house there is a build up of rubbish. Can drive me nuts, now that I have stated it makes me unhappy, it has been said, she heard it, knows it, still does little about it, but somehow it seems to bother me less. I don't tell her to do anything about it (would be futile anyway). Its about how it affects me, so its not an attack.

Thank you!

This makes more sense than anything that I have read in a while.

All of it pretty much becomes a non-issue. I have noticed that my husband has been reacting a lot less to the hard stuff that I have been saying lately. I am not putting it into any kind format. I am speaking from a place of complete sincerity without any BS and without any attitude from me.
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Cat Familiar
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« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2015, 09:20:59 AM »

Vortex,

I love your use of language. With a few tweaks here and there, what you've written could be a great stand-up routine--just because it's so true!
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“The Four Agreements  1. Be impeccable with your word.  2. Don’t take anything personally.  3. Don’t make assumptions.  4. Always do your best. ”     ― Miguel Ruiz, The Four Agreements: A Practical Guide to Personal Freedom
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« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2015, 10:22:57 AM »

Vortex,

I love your use of language. With a few tweaks here and there, what you've written could be a great stand-up routine--just because it's so true!

Thanks! My kids think I am a comedian half the time.
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waverider
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« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2015, 09:37:23 PM »

Constantly weighing up should I/shouldn't I, dare I/I daren't I, is it worth it to/is it not worth it to, say something, winds you up and creates tension and resentment.

Much easier to not actually be bothered by most of it and occasionally, and simply, voice how certain things bug you, then get on with life. Things will change as a result, or they wont, stressing about them just makes it that much worse.

Stressing about consequences breeds insecurity.

Of course this is an ideal thats hard to attain, but it's worth heading towards
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waverider
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« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2015, 09:51:47 PM »

People are complex human beings and trying to boil an emotion down to one word can, I don't know, cheapen the emotion or take away some of the complexities. I stumbled upon something that I wrote with regards to parenting and that was one of the things that I wrote. Don't try to put a name on another person's emotions because it can feel invalidating because the label you give it may only be a small piece of the puzzle.

Better may be to ask how they actually feel and to describe their emotions. When they then start going back into the nuts and bolts of the issue redirect back to "how does that actually make you feel, can you describe your emotions?". You are not trying to provide the closure you are trying to get the full picture letting them exhaust their need to express how they feel

"I can see you are upset"=so thats sorted> lets move on, don't need to tell me more. Result is they then keep reinforcing this, and you keep reassuring in a cyclical loop until you run out of patience
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vortex of confusion
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« Reply #11 on: May 09, 2015, 10:06:18 AM »

Better may be to ask how they actually feel and to describe their emotions. When they then start going back into the nuts and bolts of the issue redirect back to "how does that actually make you feel, can you describe your emotions?". You are not trying to provide the closure you are trying to get the full picture letting them exhaust their need to express how they feel

"I can see you are upset"=so thats sorted> lets move on, don't need to tell me more. Result is they then keep reinforcing this, and you keep reassuring in a cyclical loop until you run out of patience

Wow, this is pure gold for me!

I recently had a situation where somebody, my former sponsor, tried to push counseling on me. She told me that I needed to get closure. I am not going to go into the details. This right here is where I struggle. I need to be able to talk and express myself such that people, like my husband, are not cutting me off, trying to tell me how I feel, or trying to direct my feelings to what they think I should be doing with them or about them. Somebody telling me that I need to get closure or that I need to talk about this or that doesn't really help me. I think it is important for ME to realize this so that I can do a better job of extending this courtesy to my partner as well as to myself.

That is the beauty of this forum. It gives me a safe place to share until I feel like I don't need to share any more.
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waverider
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« Reply #12 on: May 09, 2015, 07:39:18 PM »

That is the beauty of this forum. It gives me a safe place to share until I feel like I don't need to share any more.

This is the essence of a safe venue to self soothe. It's a reason good therapists don't seem to say much and don't seem to have many answers. They just direct you to self realization.

An analogy:

Our thoughts are like water rushing down a mountain valley churning and gurgling along. Being channeled and directed by immovable outside influences (the terrain). If someone tries to provide closure they are simply building a dam. This provides temporary calm, but soon fills and eventually needs a means to control the spillage. Conversely if the water is allowed to follow its course without closure it reaches the ocean with no boundaries and it attains a more sustainable state of natural balance.

The moral being that guidance towards a natural conclusion has a more lasting result than trying to stem the flow with imposed restraints.

A practical example of this is why we don't allow run massages on the Staying board, the soothing has to run its own course to determine whether that be a result or not.
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