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Author Topic: Responding to "It's what the kids told me they wanted"  (Read 441 times)
kells76
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« on: May 14, 2015, 02:31:17 PM »

And... .second topic.

The girls' mom wants to rehash the summer & fall schedules. While she says she doesn't want major changes, I think that might mean that she does. The kids have been with H for at least some small part of every weekend, plus one weeknight, for the past school year (and generally the past summer, too). Now Mom is saying that the kids told her that they want to go to every other weekend, but not full weekends -- i.e., H suggested that if it's not every weekend in some part (it had been 1 overnight weekend/0 overnight weekend alternating), to extend the EOW to 2 overnights. Mom insists that the kids have told her adamantly that they don't want that. I can imagine Mom sighing and looking sympathetic: "Believe me, I SUPPORT your time with them, and I think they SHOULD have 2 overnights in a row, but I just really want to LISTEN to the kids... .How can I help it if they are so sure they don't want to?"

What's tough is that I actually believe that the kids are telling her that they don't want to, while at the same time, when older D is with us, she's starting to worry about how much time she has left with us. If/when this goes to mediation, I have a feeling that turning it into a ":) tells me X" versus "Well, D tells me Y" will turn the situation into a contest as to which parent the girls can REALLY honestly talk to, and I bet you can guess who will give herself first place there.

How have other NCPs addressed this? Have you had to deal with the "Who REALLY listens to the kids" competition, and given that logic probably didn't work, what did you say? Have you just kept letting it go to reduce conflict, or... .? How do you set a final boundary on the other parent subtlely whittling away at parenting time? Tips? Been there, done that?

BTW, I am just the stepmom, FYI, but Mom generally wants Stepdad at mediation, which means that I go with H. Which is fine and hopefully explains why I'm asking all this... .
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« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2015, 03:14:58 PM »

My uBPDbiomomster says this all the time. "SD10 says she wants to be with me" "SD10 says she doesn't want to call you" blah blah blah. SD10 probably does say that, to try to appease her mom. We kind of just ignore those comments.

In court uBPDbm wanted to show a letter that she made SD10 write. Our lawyer and the judge both shut it down. The judge told her that if she wants SD10s opinion to be expressed in court then it has to be brought another way (i.e. through the CE). We ended up with 50/50 at the temp hearing.

We're going for full custody at the final. I'm hoping SD10 expressed her real opinions to the CE instead of what uBPDbm was coaching her to say. I'll let you know when we get the report.
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« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2015, 05:18:17 PM »

It's not up to the child. It's as simple as that. All professionals will agree with this. You simply don't give a child that kind of power. I can't remember if I read it or heard it in a book, but one professional put it something like this:

If a child doesn't want to go to school, do you keep them home? No. You validate that they do not want to go, but you tell them that school is something that they have to do. If a child doesn't want to eat their vegetables, do you tell them that's fine and then give them donuts? No. You tell them that having vegetables is important and it's something they need to do. So why the heck would you give this same kid the power to decide if they see their other parent or not? Why, only when it comes to parenting time, does the same parent who makes the kid go to school and makes the kid eat the vegetables suddenly want to really LISTEN to what the kid wants?

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« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2015, 07:50:42 PM »

" a child's wishes are not determinative"
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livednlearned
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« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2015, 11:38:20 AM »

There is usually parental alienation going on when a BPD parent says, "The child wants this." Read Dr. Craig Childress's blog (www.drcachildress.org)-- he describes it so well.

It's a perversion of the family structure for the child to have a say in what happens. The trick is that we get sucked into the language and assumptions that the BPD parent is exploiting, and so we go into discussions on the defensive. Childress has some helpful advice on how to frame the problem using very specific language (don't call it parental alienation, for example) when you're talking to lawyers, judges, or mental health professionals. Another example is to use phrases like "coalition" to describe what's happening between the other parent and the child. You have to take back the language and reframe it, not let her drive the conversation.

This is a helpful handout about the language: www.drcachildress.org/asp/admin/getFile.asp?RID=63&TID=6&FN=pdf

My ex accused me of parental alienation, even though he was the one trying to obliterate me and my entire family. It's such a mess to untangle the complex psychological dynamics with court professionals, so you want to go in understanding how to discuss the problems without using charged concepts, and still be able to get your footing so it's a fair fight.

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kells76
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« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2015, 11:57:22 AM »

Hey guys, thank you all for your thoughts!

rarsweet: yeah, no argument from me there. Just wish Mom understood that... . 

Nope: Totally. I am so there. It's funny (sad funny) to see Mom practice that kind of permissive parenting and then have to eat her words on some stuff. I.e., Mom was strongly suggesting that one kid should go gluten free, and it went so far as Mom saying that D had "independently" (LOL) decided to go GF. Fast forward about 5 days, Dad is suggesting actually doing an allergy test for D, but Mom is saying that maybe D is just "sensitive" to gluten and D has now decided she doesn't want to go GF. Basically, Mom's suggestions become the girls' "independent opinions"... .it's just a question of when the girls will start pushing back about spending time with Dad. Mom will then be in the corner of having to decide whether to be the "nurturing, listening" parent that lets the girls do what they want, or whether she's gonna turn up the heat on suggesting how bad Dad is.

Thunderstruck, it's good to hear that other parents/stepparents have just ignored the bluster. It hurt pretty bad the first few times/months hearing Mom say the girls didn't want to spend "too much" time with Dad. Hopefully Dad (husband) & I can start detaching more from that bait. And glad to hear things went well in court. Wishing you all the best.
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« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2015, 12:09:15 PM »

LnL, I wanted to post a longer reply to your kind thoughts.

Craig Childress is a godsend. It’s almost jarring to read his papers and see Mom described in there to a T. Older D used to have more of the entitlement/anxiety/judgment around Dad, but it is dissipating, thanks to H’s hard work of just being OK with whenever D didn’t want to spend time with him. Older D is pretty affectionate and funny with him now, so she is doing a lot better, but she still tells Mom what she wants to hear – I think. I do worry about younger D, who is a bit immature for her age (which could actually be a good thing developmentally versus being hyper-mature?) and more in the “Mom and Stepdad are all good” phase. Possibly more susceptible to Mom turning up the alienation.

Honestly, I was (and maybe H still is) in denial about the situation being actual PA, I think because as long as I believed it wasn’t, then we could still just try to all coparent and communicate and the specter of having to actually go to court wouldn’t be an option. H has (and I do to, to some extent) a big fear of getting the court to enforce PT – we both believe Mom would then stop at nothing to poison the girls’ relationship with him even further. We don’t want to put the kids in that position and under that huge psychological pressure. It’s a big, big fear.

On the other hand, how much worse could it get? Mom has already dropped the A-bomb (“abusive behavior” from Dad) in mediation last time. She already whittles away at H’s PT. It’s obvious in our small community that she talks negatively about Dad.

Our big question is about when is it time (if ever) to take it to court. H has some good perspective on the situation – that ultimately we don’t have control over what kinds of people the girls will be; that’s their decision, and that spending thousands of dollars and months of time and having Mom ramp up her tactics might result in us winning a battle but losing the war, as it were.

Sigh – I feel all over the place. Maybe this is more it – I feel so stuck, because while it’s kind of freeing & a relief to know what’s going on (it is PA, Mom is disordered, Stepdad is enabling, all the stuff Dr. Childress was describing) – it is a relief to know we’re not alone, that this is real – it also opens up more choices (court…) for what to do that H & I didn’t want to have as options. Thoughts on dealing with the reality of PA… outside of court?

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livednlearned
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« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2015, 12:25:40 PM »

It's so tough to know when to bring in court action. In my case, I had the right lawyer, the right judge, and a whole bunch of other conditions that made it likely I would be successful in court. Including my ex (a former trial lawyer) representing himself. The judge was able to see him up close and knew something really unstable was going on.

Childress does say in one of his papers that court action can trigger even worse alienation. So if you do engage the court, you want to be sure that you have a checklist of things lined up to help weigh things in your favor. For example, in my court, repeatedly denying visitation was swiftly reprimanded. That isn't always the case, though. You have to find out how your judge rules on these issues. A good lawyer will know, and will be able to sketch out how the judge thinks and behaves.

That might be your decision point -- is she eroding time. Because it sounds like time with the alienating parent is the tipping point. I was able to get majority time and learned skills/techniques (validation, Richard Warshak's tools in Divorce Poison, etc.) to try and help my son. But it certainly helped that we had long stretches together, whereas only short periods of time with his dad.

The most effective technique has been validating questions -- have you read the book I Don't Have to Make It All Better by the Lundstrom's? Asking my son a question about whether he believed something was really powerful, and he has internalized this. He did go through a stage where he almost believed himself too much  Smiling (click to insert in post) but now that he's older, he can accept that there is ambiguity a bit better. That might be a developmental thing, I don't know.

For example, asking your D to describe how eating gluten makes her feel. 

Sometimes, asking validating questions in different contexts (meaning, not in direct relation to what is happening with mom and dad) can be helpful. Like watching movies and asking if a parent, who is engaged in normal parenting behavior, is being abusive.

I think Warshak's website has a list of movies he recommends to watch with kids, to use as conversation guides that will help kids think for themselves.

That's the answer to mild PA, in my experience. Instead of competing with the disordered parent, focus all your efforts on getting the kids to think for themselves.
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« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2015, 06:31:02 PM »

There's usually a minimal amount of time that the NCP is awarded. I think it's important for parents to be mindful of that. It takes a lot for that to be negotiated down.

It really helps to get the schedule that will work for you and then stick to it until everyone becomes acclimated. If she's trying to change it, there needs to be a pretty valid reason.

My stepkids mama really, really struggled in the beginning when it came to shared parenting. She's also a creature of constant changing waters so there was a lot of threats of court. When she finally followed through and contested the current order, it became her burden to explain why the schedule wasn't in the best interest of the kiddos.

The underlying reason was that she wanted some weekends (Dad had them every weekend). So, all the white noise surrounding the why "the girls don't want to be with you every weekend" or "you're not potty training SD2" or "you were abusive during the marriage so I'm worried you're going to be abusive to the kids" became clear.  I say this because I think it's important not to be too afraid of the push back and realize where it's coming from.  

What do you think the reason is behind her wanting to change it?

It also helped my stepkids mama to see the bigger picture. She wanted my husband to have 4 nights/month (basically) and not even 60 days a year  --- he was at 104 days.  When it was put in those terms by my husband, she softened a bit when it came to the negotiation (not saying every parent would do this). Again, what she really wanted was just some weekends.

Excerpt
How have other NCPs addressed this? Have you had to deal with the "Who REALLY listens to the kids" competition, and given that logic probably didn't work, what did you say? Have you just kept letting it go to reduce conflict, or... .? How do you set a final boundary on the other parent subtlely whittling away at parenting time? Tips? Been there, done that?

Without getting too caught up --- my husband does sometimes just say "I understand what you're saying, but we're going to have to agree to disagree. The current parenting schedule seems to be working really well for us. We're the parents here and we've already decided that this is in their best interest. "

Excerpt
BTW, I am just the stepmom, FYI, but Mom generally wants Stepdad at mediation, which means that I go with H. Which is fine and hopefully explains why I'm asking all this... .

It doesn't always have to be "what's good for the goose is good for the gander". My husband's ex is highly volatile and I can (or used to) be pretty triggering for her. From an empathetic place, I'm a divorced mama too and had a really hard time when my kiddos Dad's new wife seemed to suddenly be part of the decision making.

I only put that out there because once I stopped being part of these kinds of negotiations, it really helped matters with my husband and the mama of his girls.

And really, really helped matter with me and her.

I also understand if it's important to your hubs for you to be there.  Smiling (click to insert in post)    
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kells76
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« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2015, 02:35:26 PM »

Hey DreamGirl, thanks for writing.

H & I have learned that Mom has 3 beliefs about the schedule:

   that our desire to reference the very basic parenting plan filed with the court (which says that H can see the kids whenever he’s not at work) is the “nuclear option”

   that she thinks in terms of “quality time” with the kids (i.e., it’s not parenting time unless Stepdad, Mom, their kid, and both D’s are all together), and thus believes that her “quality time” is exactly equal to H’s

   that the girls don’t want to see H “too much” and are vehemently opposed to spending more than one night in a row with him

Mom is not willing to see that H actually gets LESS than the minimum PT generally awarded. I mean, the info was right in front of her at mediation last time, and I think she wasn’t letting it compute. H knows he gets less time but wants to keep conflict down, so doesn’t push it.

I agree that Mom should have a valid reason to change the schedule. I think her true belief is that the girls really don’t want to see H every weekend, so that seems totally valid to her. The problem, of course, is that H & I don’t see that as a valid reason, because we are pretty sure D’s are telling Mom what she wants to hear.

I sort of wish Mom would actually threaten court action, but I think she’s with it enough to know she’d lose out big time.

That’s a good point about ignoring the white noise. I think Mom does want some weekend time with the kids, which makes sense. It’s tough when she’s not willing to trade to make that happen for her. Of course, that’s flavored with her belief that the kids don’t really like being with H, that H is an inadequate parent, that she and Stepdad are the REAL family, all that jazz.

H has communicated to her that he is OK with the EOW/1 overnight instead of 2 plan for the summer, but he is not OK with it for the coming school year. Mom replied that she sees every seasonal schedule as “temporary” based on what works for the girls then. Maybe I’m just crazy, but does that sound like she won’t want to switch back?

And that’s another good point about just not involving myself in mediation. Part of my baggage is wanting to take care of H and “be there” for him. I think it’s hard for me to know what sort of vitriol he’d be walking into with Mom & Stepdad, & not at least be by his side. But I guess I can’t protect him from everything.

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« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2015, 04:10:29 PM »

But I guess I can’t protect him from everything.

I'm right there with you in wanting to do what I can to safeguard my DH's interests when it comes to his children. It's just important to remember that he married her and had kids with her. He has a long history of dealing with her for better or for worse. I found that when I started laying down the boundaries and essentially taking over was the point where I took everything on and my DH stopped even trying to learn how to handle the hard stuff. After all, I shouldered that burden. In doing so, I did him a disservice because I was basically telling him he was incompetent to handle the situation. Looking back, I really regret not having treated him like and adult and taken an appropriate step back. I think I could have avoided a whole lot of stress and aggravation that was never mine to carry in the first place. And he would have felt more trusted to handle his own affairs in his own way.
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