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Author Topic: Another landmine in the land of eggshells.  (Read 495 times)
Ceruleanblue
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« on: May 18, 2015, 11:41:54 PM »

Well, we have had about four or five marriage therapy sessions, and while I really like our marriage therapist and his take on things, tonight was a bad session for me. Yet more talk of BPDh's kids, which I'm getting really, really tired of. I get it, I agree with all our therapist says, but BPDh may never "get it". He is so enmeshed with his grown kids, and thinks boundaries are "bad". This session was bad for me because BPDh brought up something I said Saturday(and I just knew he would), and I realized he may never stop holding grudges, and harboring resentment. Here I thought things were getting so much better, and blammo, something he was upset at me about from two days ago!

Of course the thing he was upset about yet again involved one of his daughters. She last minute cancelled seeing him(she refuses to be around me), and I said I thought her last minute cancellation was rather rude. He's been so counting on seeing her and his grandson. Well, apparently he got mad at me and said I was annoying for saying that. He excuses any and all things they do. One time one of his daughters cancelled four times in a row, because she was mad and avoiding him(she eventually blew up on him), and he kept insisting that she wasn't avoiding him. He acts like I have a vendetta out for his kids, when in fact the exact opposite is true. He has zero boundaries, and the marriage therapist got nowhere in trying to explain boundaries to BPDh.

I'm sick, sick, sick of being blamed for having an opinion. I'd have said the exact thing no matter who'd cancelled last minute, yet because it was his daughter who hates me, I'm the bad guy. I'm so sick of this dysfunctional hornet's nest. It's not just BPDh, it's that his kids all act so BPD, NPD, or histrionic too, it's just too much. They do something crap, I noticed or so much as say a darn word, and I'm the bad guy, not them! He can't or wont' blame them, yet he projects it ALL onto me.

How do I stop feeling bad, and upset about this? I'll own my issues, but I'm sick of being blamed for theirs. I gave up living with my son because BPDh actually put me in a position to "choose", and I moved with him for this? It seems like every week BPDh comes home from his DBT therapy, and he's crappy to me. It's the same way when we see his family, he's always grumpy with me after even if all went well. I'm so sick of his moods. He feels shamed he says, yet I've never shamed him. He hates that I have opinions. It just feels like today was a day where the old BPDh was back. He'd made so much progress, and this makes me afraid that he'll slip right back into old patterns. He's getting really good at playing the victim too.

Is anyone else dealing with more than on BPD at a time? I don't have to see his kids, because they refuse to be around me, but I deal with the fallout from them, and BPDh seems to again be blaming me. Or at least projecting onto me because of them. How do you stay sane when you have so many people with similarly BPD traits? 

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Ceruleanblue
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« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2015, 11:52:30 PM »

And after a bad day, do you ever just feel like being away from your BPD partner? I just feel like I need a break from him. I'm seriously questioning why I moved to be with him. I miss my son, and I'm sick to death of not knowing what mood BPDh will come home in. Things had been going great, then he came home and he was his other persona.

I'm taking tomorrow to go visit my son, and get some time away. I just feel I am not up to any more blame(that is not deserved, and I won't accept), BPDh playing victim, or his silent treatment or outright hostility. I'd like a day to not worry about if he'll be an angel or devil any given day.

All the things we agreed to do when we reconciled have been forgotten by him. I've reminded him, but he just doesn't care. The narcissistic streak is truly staggering. Most days I deal with all this and maintain my sense of humor, but today I felt was a low blow. I'm sick of his petty grudges. I'm sick of him.
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waverider
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« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2015, 01:49:51 AM »

I struggle with all the triangulation that goes on with BPD partner and her family, I get pulled into it. I see it for what it is but as i have my own issues with her family I find it very hard to not let it get to me.

Nothing but denial, superficiality and BS in general... .gives me a headache due to stress.

Appreciate your son, I make a point of being extra close to my daughter and son now they are getting older 17 & 20.

Seeing dysfunctionailty in other families makes me appreciate my own
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Notwendy
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« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2015, 06:43:15 AM »

Although you moved to be with him, it seems you are in driving distance to your son, and your H wants to spend time with his kids. It seems his kids are not fond of you and your son doesn't like your H. Since this marriage was done after they were grown, they don't have a parental- child relationship with the other parent, and they don't have to.

All families have their craziness, but in an enmeshed family, being critical of one member is criticizing the whole family. People with NPD and BPD see their children as an extension of themselves, so criticizing their child is the same as criticizing them. In general, parents don't like to hear criticisms of their kids, no matter what, so I can see why your opinions could trigger him. Also, it is clear that you are very hurt and resentful of his demand that you move away from your son.

Many kids his age go to boarding school, so I don't know how crucial it is for a kid his age to live with you. At some point he's going to want to be with his friends more than a parent. But it is still crucial that you have a good relationship and spend time with him, which you do. Since it seems your separate families just want to be with each other, is it possible that you arrange to spend extended time at your parents' house - sort of a two home living situation? You can still focus on the marriage, but you don't have to be there all the time.

I am thinking something like alternating 3-4 days a week with your son, the rest with your H. Each of you can have an agreement to spend the alone days with family. He can have his family craziness to himself, you can have your family to yourself. Then, the time together is your time.
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Ceruleanblue
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« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2015, 11:37:56 AM »

Yeah, my kids are 19 and 16, and it just feels wrong to me that my 19 year old daughter was "allowed" to live with us, but my son was not. I'm still fighting the resentment over that one, especially in light of how much blame he put on me for all this, and look at the end result: two of his four kids want nothing to do with HIM. Our therapist says they have an "all or nothing" mentality and that we need to focus on our marriage. I agree, but I'm having issues with this thing with my son. BPDh wants to complain because I said I thought his daughter did something rude, but look as the position he put ME in, and my son?

I do enjoy both my kids, and I think perhaps BPDh is jealous of that. I now don't get to see much of my son, and my son certainly won't come here. I can go visit, but since all this happened my son is weird with me. He told me I should move with BPDh, but I know he's hurt by it on some level.

I just continue to feel badly about next year missing his junior year, and his senior year. I could divide my time, but I'm way too uncomfortable about leaving my 19 year old daughter here alone with BPDh. He's weird with her. I trust him, but I'm not sure how far. I'm often the third wheel, and BPDh can't see that he's being manipulated by her. My whole family has commented on how he is with her, and so has his family noticed. I know she'd never act on it, but I'm less sure about him. She plays him like a fiddle.

I'm sort of stuck because BPDh has impulse control, and I refuse to leave to spend time with my son and know that BPDh puts my daughter in my role. He's already more considerate of her, and I just set a strong boundary about him taking her out alone(what to me felt like "dates". I came home the other day after spending a few hours with my son, and even though my daughter knew what time I'd be home(basically 15 minutes from the time they left), they went out to eat alone, at a bar no less, and BPDh didn't text me or call me basically all day. He didn't care to know when I'd be home, even though that was the first time I didn't beat him home.

I guess I just have to keep firm on the boundary I set: no more going out alone for them. I would like to divide my time/days there, but the situation with how BPDh is with my daughter makes that impossible. I know I'm not imagining it because so many others have commented on it. Our marriage therapist didn't seem to think it was as strange as I've noticed, but he hasn't witnessed it, and my husband's family, and my family has. It's like he longs for her admiration, and he'll actually talk to her, and she gets his undivided attention. He's courteous to her, and treats her the way he should be treating ME. He'll order for her at restaurants, and the usual courtesies I should be getting.

I guess I'm just having a few down days after their most recent "date". My daughter even tried telling him I'd be upset, but BPDh apparently insisted on taking them out. And also, he'd told me we were broke, but he found money to take her out.

I do know they've both been told it had better not happen again. I'm glad they get along, but BPDh needs to back off on the creep factor. I need to feel comfortable too, and I'm sick of having the way he treats her so much better, rubbed in my face.

He got rid of my son, am I the next one to go? If he thinks my daughter would choose him over ME, he is delusional. She's manipulating him, and getting along for my sake, and I think she sort of enjoys me seeing that she can yank him by the chain. Sigh.
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123Phoebe
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« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2015, 11:45:14 AM »

Ceruleanblue, what is it about this relationship that you value?  To be honest, I've not read much and yet... .  I don't even know what. 

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Notwendy
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« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2015, 11:57:46 AM »

Triangles are a stable relationships for dysfunctional people. They have difficulty with one on one, bringing in a third makes the relationship stable when it is two vs one, the two are united in their mission against one, and looking at that instead of the issues with each other. My parents were most happy with each other when they were angry at someone, often the kids.

Also look at the drama triangle, (google it).

What triangles are their in your relationships? I can see some. DH, daughter, you.  Son, you, DH, DH, you his kids... .

It may not be my place to say, but what you say about your H and your D feels creepy to me. Even if it isn't sexual, they are both getting something out of it. A 19 year old admirer is an ego boost for a middle age man, I am sure he enjoys being seen out with a young pretty woman. Being able to manipulate an older man might be an ego boost for your D. Both get to do this under the safety guise of family.

Your daughter is a legal adult. They are not related. There really is no barrier to them doing what they want to. If you feel that you can not leave because the situation isn't trustworthy, that is something to consider. I also know that you don't want to put your D out if she has nowhere to stay, but she is 19, how long will she live at home?

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sweetheart
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« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2015, 12:31:09 PM »

Hello Ceruleanblue,

I have been following your posts and it seems to me you have sacrificed a great deal for your marriage. I can hear that you are finding it difficult to reconcile the choices you have made regarding your son with the situation still remaining pretty much unchanged with your husband. I understand that this must be very difficult, it is not something I would be able to do as a mother regardless of my sons age.

Your posts are often very hard to read because they contain so much resentment and upset that again you are understandably finding it difficult to let go of.

Was there a part of you that thought if you gave in to your husbands conditions regarding your son that your relationship would improve?

Notwendy is right in her comments about your h and d, it is uncomfortable reading. Have you spoken with your d about your concerns and observations? It might help her emotionally navigate some of the issues you highlight if you are open with her.
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Ceruleanblue
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« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2015, 12:38:45 PM »

123Phoebe: There is a lot I value about BPDh and my relationship. I guess I come here with our issues, but there is actually a lot I love about us too. We like to do a lot of the same things, cooking being one of them. We enjoy most of our time together, when he isn't zoned out, or stonewalling me. We have been having more good times lately, and his anger has lessened a lot. I still consider there is way more good than bad.

Notwendy:

I totally agree that there are several triangles going on. I just feel like I'm getting the "bum deal" in all of the triangles. And YES, YES, YES, BPDh and my daughter are both getting something out of their relationship. I was always mildly creeped out by the way he was with his own daughters, and now he's doing it with mine! My Dad and I have a good relationship and are close, but this degree of closeness is just foreign to me. It really is enmeshed, and makes me, and others uncomfortable. I can't say he's totally enmeshed with my daughter, but he's solicitous towards her in a way he never is with me, and she plays up to him to get her way. He totally does enjoy having her attention, and she is pretty, young and she tends to suck the oxygen right out of the room, she talks so much... .I just disappear when it's the three of us. He never pays attention to me, but boy, he sure does with her. I love that she's getting attention of a "father figure", but my issue is I see that he does not feel fatherly about her in the way he behaves.

I want her to live with us until she is out of college. She is working two jobs and going full time. I just expect that this crap needs to stop. I think they are both responsible in this issue, and they both need to respect my boundary. Plus, I think this all feels worse because he dotes on my daughter, but was always hateful to my son. If he'd been the same way with my son, it wouldn't have the creep factor that it does... .
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Ceruleanblue
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« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2015, 12:49:00 PM »

Sweetheart:

Yes, I have spoken very openly with my daughter about this. She just gets angry and says "it's not my fault". Well, part of it is. She agrees he's "weird" with her, but she plays on it. I think because he's never crossed any lines(they are not at all physical with each other), that she feels safe to manipulate him. She treats him like a friend or buddy, and I've noticed she's much the same when she has guy friends. I wouldn't care that they are this close if he didn't treat her so much better than me. I'm actually glad they get along, it's just hard to see her consistently getting what I want: empathy, attention, and consideration. I seem to get all the BPD traits off him, and she doesn't. She sure talks about him behind his back though. When we were separated, she didn't want me to go back to him! He knows this too... .Laugh out loud (click to insert in post).

Because of past talks I've had with her, that was probably why she told him them going out to eat was a "bad idea". Well, it sure was, and on their way home, they also hit a deer. Totaled BPDh's car, and I had a fit when they came home. I wasn't yelling, but I more than got my point across that there would be no more dinners out like they are a couple. They can act indignant all they want, and act like I'm the one having an issue, I don't care.

He actually came home for lunch today, which was nice. He's trying so hard, and I feel bad that I still am struggling with all this resentment. I was handling all of it without resentment until he made me "choose", and now I feel like I'm drowning in it, and trying not to... .

Oh, and I did think that by not having my son and BPDh live together, it might make things easier. BPDh couldn't seem to stop targeting my son, and while my son dealt with it well, he shouldn't have had to. I didn't think it would change BPDh or our relationship, but I thought it might take that stress away, and allow his DBT therapy to work without it constantly be being tested by my son who seemed to be a trigger for BPDh. Of course, I'm a trigger too. BPDh always seems to have had a target in his life. Sometimes it was his boss, sometimes a spouse, but it's always someone. Sad.
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Notwendy
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« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2015, 01:41:36 PM »

A father- daughter relationship is built over time and usually starts when the child is a child. Your daughter is a grown woman. This does not imply something is going on, but I don't know if the same closeness is appropriate when the relationship begins this way. They can certainly have a warm relationship but not to the exclusion  of you.

When I was your daughter's age my aunt divorced and remarried. Her first husband was my uncle from when I was a baby. Her second husband was technically my uncle but the relationship was different. I would think nothing of going out to dinner alone with uncle # 1 but it would take some time before I could do that with uncle #2. He was a nice man and an honorable man, but we didn't have a father figure- child bond - we had a father figure -adult child one.

I think it is good that your H is a father figure with your D, but I also think that some boundaries are different when that father figure becomes part of an adult child's life than when she is a child.
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Ceruleanblue
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« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2015, 02:47:28 PM »

I agree. My kids were 12 and 15 when they met BPDh, so you are right, she was probably too old for that father/daughter bond. They always got along pretty good though.

I'm glad they are close, but I feel they both need to be respectful of my feelings, and respect my boundary.

It's weird that so much focus has been put on BPDh's kids, and I've been putting up with this issue with my daughter/BPDh too for far too long. I can't do anything about the issue with his kids, but I sure can set a boundary about MY kid living under my roof. It's bad enough that I get left alone when we all three go to the mall, they go off together, and she treats him like a girlfriend... ."BPDh, look at this", but dinners out alone is where I draw the line.

I've put up with way too much for the sake of peace and staying together, but this ends now. And I'm not going to monitor my every word in regards to his kids. He may not like my opinion, but I'm human, and I'm not going to say everything his kids do is golden, just so he doesn't get angry. MY truth, and the truth of others in his family is that his kids can be mean, and people tiptoe around them. I'm not doing that any more. I'll be civil, but heck, they won't even let me around, and I'll be darned if I say mean things are great!

Sorry I'm in such a negative mind frame. It just feels like since moving away, I'm having a harder time being the upbeat, cheerful one. Always being the partner that finds the good, and looks for the good in everything gets a little old when you are living with someone with BPD who is overall super negative and critical.

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Notwendy
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« Reply #12 on: May 19, 2015, 04:04:24 PM »

I think it is important to recognize how we are feeling. We have choices about how or if to act on them, but we can have our feelings.

One thing that concerns me is you being afraid to visit your son, because of leaving your D alone with your H. This may be something you wish to bring up in your own counseling if you are in personal T.

If your fear is that your H would be inappropriate with her, I know that not leaving reduces the opportunity, but they are both grown adults, and it would seem to me to be impossible to strictly monitor the behavior of any adult.

Also, does she have friends? Most girls her age would be more interested in staying with friends than hanging out with a middle age man. Perhaps she could stay with friends for the time you are gone.

It would be inappropriate if something happened, but they are two adults. Also, at 19, your D surely knows how to deal with unwanted advances, even if they are upsetting. It would be a horrible thing to face for your family, but I don't know how much it is worth it to give up time with your son in fear of this.
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waverider
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« Reply #13 on: May 19, 2015, 05:03:45 PM »

TBH you are being guit tripped by everyone. Whether deliberate or otherwise. Your son is guilt tripping you even though he may not realize it. Your daughter is not respecting you either as must be aware of how this makes you feel.

Your kids are pushing boundaries, but that is what they are meant to do. The problem is your boundaries are not placed around what makes you feel bad. if yo feel bad about your daughter going out alone with him, then it needs a boundary around it because it makes you feel creepy. That should stay in place until such time as it does not feel creepy. Whether it be fair or justifiable is not the issue.

You are doubting and questioning your own right to draw lines in the sand.
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Ceruleanblue
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« Reply #14 on: May 20, 2015, 10:52:31 AM »

Waverider: I couldn't agree more. It's true. My daughter clearly knows this makes me feel bad, and even my own Mother said, that she thinks my daughter does it to flaunt to me that she has such control of BPDh. My Mom dotes on my two kids, but she's very realistic, and like me, is a pretty straight shooter. I do think this behavior is typical of their ages, but I agree both kids need boundaries regarding respecting ME, their parent. Their Dad and I divorced after 18 years, and I never just let them disrespect him.

I have no doubt that my kids, and BPDh use guilt to get their way. I called it blame, but it's really just guilt, perhaps? I don't just buy into it, at all, but they all seem to think I do. The ONLY thing I truly feel guilt about currently is moving away from my son. I do think he has a right to feel bad, even though he did urge me to move, but I can't let him use that to get everything his own way. I'm so glad you pointed out that I'm being guilted by them.

I'm pretty sure both BPDh and my daughter know dinners out, better be a thing of the past. If they interacted differently, it would feel differently to me. I'm all for her having a Dad figure, in fact I'm thankful for that, but that is NOT how they act.

And I'm going to think over how to have better boundaries with my son. My parents, where he is living, really hate how he treats me, and have had lots of talks with him about it. He's a great kid, never caused trouble in school, chooses his friends wisely, but he's always been defiant with both parents, and when he was younger I'm pretty sure he had Oppositional Defiance Disorder.
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Notwendy
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« Reply #15 on: May 20, 2015, 05:19:43 PM »

Teens acting snarky to their parents at times may be typical for their ages, but disrespect is not something parents need to tolerate. They need to respect their parents' marriages too, and not be allowed to come between them. Yes, sometimes we tolerate them asserting their individuality- things like dyeing their hair purple, dressing weird, crazy music, but disrespect- we do not have to tolerate. Teens need strong boundaries too.

A man showing more interest in a 19 year old than her mother, treating that 19 year old better than her mother may be age appropriate if that man is also 19     Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)

I hope you can discuss this in MC, as it is bothering you.
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