Introduction

[Fian]

Apparently, part of the registration process is introducing yourself in a thread.

Hello, my name is Fian, and I am a - oh wait, I am in the wrong forum.   

Seriously, I have been married almost 13 years, and this past year has been especially poor.  On our 12 year anniversary she told me that she wanted to leave me.  She had in the first 12 years said in various ways that she regretted marrying me, but that was the first time where divorce was proposed (she never uses the D word, as if using other words is ok).  She changed her mind about leaving, but the threat didn't sit well with me.  I consider marriage as forever, and when your partner starts talking about divorce, you start to question how you approach your future.  Do you make plans as if you will grow old together, or do you start to hedge your bets in case your spouse decides to leave?  Over the past year, she would periodically bring up leaving again with each time resulting in a strong negative response from me.

Our relationship started to go into a death spiral.  We started to argue more.  I started to get angry more, and when I did, I would raise my voice.  I would start to say things more forcefully and harshly, trying to get her to see that she was wrong.  She would call me a jerk.  So we would then try and avoid discussing controversial subjects, but even then we would still end up arguing.

At this point I was starting to get really worried about our marriage.  If we can't keep basic civility, then it is hard to imagine the marriage lasting even if I didn't want to consider divorce.  Both of us were quite depressed, and if we didn't divorce, one of might turn to suicide instead.  About a week ago, I started to search on the internet about failed marriages.  I wanted to see what came next, and what could be done to avoid it.  There I saw a discussion thread about a man married to a woman with borderline personality disorder.  I started looking at the symptoms, and it wasn't a perfect match, but a lot did fit my wife to a tee.

Since then I read a book on the issue, and I do believe that my wife has BPD.  She has a mild case of it, and is in much better control of herself than many others that I read.  However, reading the book it helped me understand her much better.  It also helped me find my love for her again.  Before I could not be loving because of the anger and hurt, but once I saw her as one incapable of seeing the world for how it truly is, I was able to rediscover my love and compassion for her.  On Saturday we started the day depressed.  She was just spending the day in bed.  I started to read the book, and found my love again.  I gave her a quick hug in bed, and said something to the effect that we had our issues, but I knew that she was hurting, and I was sad to see her hurting.  She said that she liked the hug, and the next thing I know we are going out.  The next day we had sex.  And for the past half-week everything has been good.

What I find most interesting, is the change in me.  I accepted that she just can't see the world correctly, and I won't be able to change that by debating with her.  That change in perspective has radically changed me, and as I have changed, it has affected how she responds to me.

So in a week I have now become a BPD expert and can counsel everyone here on how to live with a BPD spouse.   

In all seriousness, I can only imagine the ups and downs that await me.  She has already tested me several times in the past few days, just to see where I am coming from now.  She picks topics that I dislike and wants to see how I respond.  I respond more loving than I have in the past, but I don't give her the answers that she is looking for either.  At least for now she has accepted my responses, since they have been more loving.  My fear is that this peace will end, and we will go back into the death spiral.  Here's hoping that my change is permanent, and I can keep us from going back into old habits.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[babyducks]

  Fian,  and Welcome

That was a great introductory post.  I can see you are off to a good start here at BPD family.

I want to be the first to point out the lessons on the right hand side of the screen.  They are a great place to browse to pick up the tools and skills that will help with communication and understanding.   I hope you spend some time taking a good look.

Finding this website has been a Godsend to me.   It has helped me more than I can say in a simple two paragraph post.  There are a lot of supportive people here who understand exactly what I am talking about because they live with the same situations.

One of the things I related to in your post is your wife's different view of the world.   For me, in my situation, it took me a long time to understand that my SO processes information much differently than I do.   Like you I had a lot of arguments about who was right and who was wrong.   When I started to understand that her processing method comes with a lot of highly intense emotions I started to become less reactive to them.   I have learned over time to appreciate her viewpoint and perspectives, not because she was right and I was wrong but because she always sees things I do not.   

I am curious, what book was it you read?   

'ducks

[vortex of confusion]

 

Welcome to the forums!

I want to join babyducks in welcoming you. It sounds like you have a good start. The lessons available here are very awesome and very helpful. The great thing about this place is that if you have a specific situation and need to vent or get advice, you can come post and get the advice from people that have been at this a whole lot longer. And, it is a great way to share your experiences and help others in the process.

In your post, you mention wondering if this is a permanent change. It could be but I doubt it. I am not trying to be cynical. I have been with my husband for 17 years. There have been a lot of ups and downs. There have been way too many times when I would think that things would be better so I would relax. As soon as I relaxed, things would go into a downward spiral until I changed or did something different.

Have you read much about boundaries? Setting boundaries with a spouse can be difficult but the end result is good.

[Fian]

I am curious, what book was it you read?   

'ducks

The book was called "The Essential Family Guide to Borderline Personality Disorder."

When it comes to boundaries, I am actually pretty good at that even before it was discussed in the book.  When she would call me a jerk, I would leave the room.  The one issue that I have had an issue in the past is where she starts to talk about leaving.  She never does, but I find it unacceptable to say it.  The last time I told her that the next time she said it, I might leave instead.  This past week she wanted to say it, but chose not to.  With her likely fear of abandonment, maybe that was in the back of her head.  On the other hand, I am not sure if I should set a boundary like that or not.  While effective, me leaving may be an unnecessary escalation.  Just because she has issues, it doesn't mean that all of my decisions/responses are correct, and it is still possible for the non-BPD to sabotage a relationship.

[Fian]

One thing that I am struggling with is how to address incorrect statements that she makes due to her skewed view of the world.  For her, feeling = fact.  If I invalidate her fact, I am invalidating her feeling which this board says is wrong.  However, it is difficult to have a productive conversation, if I disagree with her and don't explain why.

Some basic examples:

"You did this because you were thinking that."  My response: No, I was not thinking that.  (Side note: I love how she thinks she knows better than myself what I am thinking.  Even when I directly contradict her about what I am thinking, she still doesn't believe it.)

"You offended me when we discussed x."  My response: Just because you were offended, that does not mean I did anything wrong.  Analysis:  This invalidates her feelings, but I don't how else to respond to this.  This is how she keeps herself the perpetual victim.

I also have a question for those with a diagnosed BPD (they know it).  (My wife is not diagnosed).  Does it help to let them know they are perceiving something incorrectly, or does that just invalidate them and cause problems?

[MaroonLiquid]

One thing that I am struggling with is how to address incorrect statements that she makes due to her skewed view of the world.  For her, feeling = fact.  If I invalidate her fact, I am invalidating her feeling which this board says is wrong.  However, it is difficult to have a productive conversation, if I disagree with her and don't explain why.

Some basic examples:

"You did this because you were thinking that."  My response: No, I was not thinking that.  (Side note: I love how she thinks she knows better than myself what I am thinking.  Even when I directly contradict her about what I am thinking, she still doesn't believe it.)

"You offended me when we discussed x."  My response: Just because you were offended, that does not mean I did anything wrong.  Analysis:  This invalidates her feelings, but I don't how else to respond to this.  This is how she keeps herself the perpetual victim.

I also have a question for those with a diagnosed BPD (they know it).  (My wife is not diagnosed).  Does it help to let them know they are perceiving something incorrectly, or does that just invalidate them and cause problems?

The thing is, explaining yourself is an "effort in futility to pwBPD.  They are going to only see their side 99% of the time even if it isn't true.  It's true to them in that moment.

[vortex of confusion]

Some basic examples:

"You did this because you were thinking that."  My response: No, I was not thinking that.  (Side note: I love how she thinks she knows better than myself what I am thinking.  Even when I directly contradict her about what I am thinking, she still doesn't believe it.)

I have dealt with this repeatedly as have many of the people here.

Have you seen anything about S.E.T. in the lessons? It is a quick way to validate what they are feeling while stating your own truth. Another possible response might be: "I can see why you might say that. I was actually thinking blah, blah, blah." It is a situation where you learn NOT to directly contradict them. A direct contradiction, even when they are 100% full of crap, is invalidating.

"You offended me when we discussed x."  My response: Just because you were offended, that does not mean I did anything wrong.  Analysis:  This invalidates her feelings, but I don't how else to respond to this.  This is how she keeps herself the perpetual victim.

Your response is defensive. That is a natural reaction to somebody saying "Hey, you offended me." And, it seems like you may have taken her simple statement of "You offended me" as "You did something wrong." How do you think it would go if you responded with something like: "Can you help me understand what it was that I said that offended you? I'd really like to understand the situation." Or something like that.

Have you read anything about JADEing?

I also have a question for those with a diagnosed BPD (they know it).  (My wife is not diagnosed).  Does it help to let them know they are perceiving something incorrectly, or does that just invalidate them and cause problems?

Mine is NOT diagnosed but taking issue with his perception of reality is a recipe for disaster.

[Fian]

I don't have a response to most of the comments right now as I need to think about this a lot more.  In regards to JADE, I am not familiar with the acronym.  Is there a link that explains it?  I was not able to find it in the Lessons summary.

[vortex of confusion]

I don't have a response to most of the comments right now as I need to think about this a lot more.  In regards to JADE, I am not familiar with the acronym.  Is there a link that explains it?  I was not able to find it in the Lessons summary.

I was trying to find a link that explains JADE but didn't have much luck. I think it is in the Lesson on Tools: Communication, validation, and reinforcement of good behavior.

There is some stuff about JADE in the Workshop on how to stop circular arguments too: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=118892.0;all

This is a lot of stuff to take in all at once. It takes a while of reading and posting to get your feet under you.

The gyst of JADE is that it is not a good idea to Justify, Argue, Defend, or Explain yourself to your partner. In a normal situation, somebody might say that you did something. The natural reaction is to defend yourself and explain. When dealing with somebody with BPD or BPD traits, that tends to lead to circular discussions that make no sense and leave you feeling confused. I have walked away from some of those conversations with the sense of, "What the heck just happened?"

[Fian]

Well, my wife found my book on BPD and is now disappointed in me.  I figured this would happen (I wasn't really trying to hide the book), so now we get to see what happens next.  I'm nervous.

[Fian]

I decided that it would be best to talk with her instead of avoiding the conversation.  We had some good discussion on it, and she did agree that there could be something wrong with her.  On the other hand she wasn't sure she had BPD.  To be honest, she isn't a perfect match.  I see her doing a lot of the BPD behaviors, but on the other hand she doesn't meet a lot of the criteria for BPD either.

Even though it didn't go that bad, this is how the conversation ended:

Her - "I don't want to talk with you right now.  Go away."

Me - "That wasn't nice."

Her - "I don't care."

[babyducks]

I am curious, what book was it you read?   

'ducks

The book was called "The Essential Family Guide to Borderline Personality Disorder."

The book that helped me the most was Margalis Fjelstad's book: Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist.

I strongly recommend it.  The examples and explanations are more centered, they don't concentrate on the extreme behaviors of the disorder.

And what was particularly helpful to me was this book did a lot to explain MY role in the relationship, why I chose this relationship and why I accepted a lot of the behavior I did.   

[babyducks]

One thing that I am struggling with is how to address incorrect statements that she makes due to her skewed view of the world.  For her, feeling = fact.  If I invalidate her fact, I am invalidating her feeling which this board says is wrong.  However, it is difficult to have a productive conversation, if I disagree with her and don't explain why.

Some basic examples:

"You did this because you were thinking that."  My response: No, I was not thinking that.  (Side note: I love how she thinks she knows better than myself what I am thinking.  Even when I directly contradict her about what I am thinking, she still doesn't believe it.)

"You offended me when we discussed x."  My response: Just because you were offended, that does not mean I did anything wrong.  Analysis:  This invalidates her feelings, but I don't how else to respond to this.  This is how she keeps herself the perpetual victim.

I also have a question for those with a diagnosed BPD (they know it).  (My wife is not diagnosed).  Does it help to let them know they are perceiving something incorrectly, or does that just invalidate them and cause problems?

a couple of thoughts.

to a pwBPD their statement is not incorrect, they are reporting to your their feelings and feelings are never, by their nature incorrect. 

I don't have to agree with their feeling to acknowledge it.   after all feelings are neither right or wrong, they just are.  it's what we DO with feelings that becomes more problematic.

so in your example above I would respond along these lines.

I can see you really are offended.  ( I am acknowledging her feeling and her right to have it.  It's not my job to manage her emotions.  I am supporting her.   Doesn't mean I agree with her conclusion.)

I suspect anyone would be upset if they thought their husband meant to be offensive ( I am attempting a little empathy)

When I said x I was feeling abc.  (This third statement is your truth statement where you say what your intention really was.   Notice the heavy use of I statements.  I see, I thought, I was.  Not you statements.  You shouldn't be offended.  You misinterpreted.  I statements are harder to argue with. I statements get you farther.)

That is what we here call a SET.   Support, Empathy, Truth.

What I have found to be true for me is that I have to use a lot of words to communicate with my SO.  I have to be very mindful of the words I use.   Things work much better if I don't immediately go to what I want to say but take the extra small sentence or two to acknowledge her emotion before I move onto to the next point in the conversation.

SET becomes easier with practice.   You will see topics here where members practice SET.

[babyducks]

I decided that it would be best to talk with her instead of avoiding the conversation.  We had some good discussion on it, and she did agree that there could be something wrong with her.  On the other hand she wasn't sure she had BPD.  To be honest, she isn't a perfect match.  I see her doing a lot of the BPD behaviors, but on the other hand she doesn't meet a lot of the criteria for BPD either.

Even though it didn't go that bad, this is how the conversation ended:

Her - "I don't want to talk with you right now.  Go away."

Me - "That wasn't nice."

Her - "I don't care."

Fian,

a couple of suggestions.

first I would be very careful how you discuss this with your wife.   obviously I don't know you or your situation but I know for me and with my SO if this topic came up very difficult things would be happening very quickly.

no one, disordered or not, responds well to being told, hey honey I think you have the traits of a mental health issue.  that is mega invalidating.   

second suggestion is that you start a new thread with this as the sole topic to pull in more thoughts from members with experience in having this type of conversation.

this is in the deep end of the swimming pool very early kind of stuff.   

good luck

'ducks

[Fian]

I took your advice and created a new thread:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=277256.0

[Stalwart]

Hey Fian: I saw you test posting earlier and knew you’d get it sooner or later. Good job and you’ve found a good place. The experiences you’ve put out here are one’s most of us have lived with. There is a lot of knowledge and experience here. From your perception what leads you to lean towards BPD? You say, “she’s mild” and doesn’t meet all the criteria. What does she meet in your take on it?

I feel a little humbled. I’m a writer/researcher by profession, I’ve been intensely studying this for three years on many different levels and approaches and you’re and expert in one book. I must be doing something wrong.   

Honestly, my friend all fun put aside there is so much to learn to even begin to truly understand your wife and your best place in the relationship.

Great thing is you’re now engaged and awareness is everything. Keep learning, you can’t learn enough. I was talking to someone else about this and so I’ll just reiterate that you’re learning doesn’t have to be hers, especially if she’s unaware and undiagnosed.

I can so imagine she’s both upset, hurt and disappointed finding a book that blindsided, labeled and judged her because that would be her immediate and deeply-set perception of that. Hopefully she isn’t overly familiar with BPD and hasn’t been exposed to all the stigma out there attached to it. Truth is, it might just be an icebreaker but everything has it’s time and place. Ultimately it will have be her time and place that gives her acceptance and recognition. You can assist in that but you really have to approach with kid’s gloves on and gently, in the right time and setting to help guide her through that acceptance. You have to know how to do that, the nuances involved in her thinking and past experiences and the reasons why it’s so important to approach it in specific ways.

Learning is a long process my friend and arduous. What information you read is really important. You chose a good book to start out with.

A couple of things you will understand better as you go ahead is to rethink statements like “but once I saw her as one incapable of seeing the world for how it truly is” or “Does it help to let them know they are perceiving something incorrectly:” or “incorrect statements that she makes due to her skewed view of the world.” It really helps to relate better to your wife’s thinking when you give those statements a little rethink.

Her reality and perception is just as real to her as your altered perception is to you. Her perception defines her reality just as yours does your world, your opinions and actions and reactions. It becomes a skill to both understand, relate to and accept a view of radical acceptances of differences. I might even stretch this far enough to say there is no wrong or right perceptions – there is only differences in them. There is a lot to learn about BPD, it’s development, onset, affects and expediential effects that your spouse has lived with all her life coping with her inner demons and perceived fears and failures to relate to them and understand them from her moccasins. She walked a long way in them.

You search for rational thinking in moments where it doesn’t exist for her because she’s just desperately treading water and trying her best to keep her head above it, caught in a pure emotional whirlpool that she feels is enveloping her and dragging her under. Put yourself in that position in the middle of the torrential river (no life jackets allowed) and imagine me standing on the shore yelling out at you through the roar of the torrent saying, “Don’t worry you’ll be OK, just talk to me about what you’re thinking”. Truth is, it really is that desperate and difficult for your wife when she’s triggered to even consider rationalizing beyond the perceived desperation of her moment.

It’s a powerful and moving thing to come to a recognition. When the light turns on it’s a life changing experience. Because we’ve all lived in so much darkness prior to understanding what we were living in the light can both be exhilarating and blinding at the same time.

It’s awesome to see that you’re engaged, want so much and are so enthusiastic about learning how to make good and positive changes in your situation and that can so really be accomplished. 

Do you understand why she threatens to leave? What’s your take on what you’re seeing there and what she might be feeling in those moments Fian?

[Fian]

There is a lot to respond in your post, so I will just address the following topic here, and follow up later on your other responses:

"You say, “she’s mild” and doesn’t meet all the criteria. What does she meet in your take on it?"

• She is very emotional and guided by her emotions.



• She does perform splitting.  She can tell me how wonderful I am, and a week later I am black to her.
  
  
• She tends to see me more as black than white.  She can't seem to see that people are grey.



• She thinks she can read people and their motives, and she normally assumes negative motives.



• It has come to the point where she tends to avoid even slightly intimate conversations with strangers, since she is afraid they will judge her for being from Mexico.



• I embarrass her frequently with others as I share details that she would prefer to keep quiet.



• She has a hard time understanding how other people are feeling, although I am sure she would say that she is very sympathetic to others.  She adores our cats for example.



• She cannot understand my point of view.  When I ask her how I am feeling, she really struggles to answer.



• She can say all kinds of harsh things to me, but is offended by even the smallest things by me.



• She often indulges in self pity.



• She is always the victim.



• When she is feeling the victim, she often says harsh things to me.



• When she says harsh things to me, she usually is not looking for a changed behavior from me.  It is just a download of negative emotion towards me.



• She does have strong fears about abandonment (she even admitted that last night).  One reason she chose me as a spouse was that she didn't think I would cheat on her.  (I haven't).



• She is very jealous.



• It is very difficult to have a discussion with her - A + B does not equal C.



• Feeling does equal fact with her.



• She often tells me of things I said many years ago that I don't remember saying, and of course they are negative ones.



• She will tell me that I have certain behaviors, and when I ask for an example, she will give me something that happened 10 years ago.



• When she gets emotional she can't hear what I am saying.



• She blames others for her decisions.



• She projects her problems on me.



• She is focused on her being pleased, and when I don't please her I am being selfish, controlling, etc.



• She has relational issues with her mom, and most recent boss.  She does get along with her sister and brother reasonably well, though.

On the other hand, she controls her anger.  She is much more likely to turn cold, maybe cry, and spend hours in self pity.  She can sometimes realize that she is wrong, and usually try and correct the mistake immediately.  At times, I am the one who is angry and chooses to isolate myself, and she will seek me out so that we can discuss our issues.  She does not have problems with substance abuse, or other issues that would cause her to end up in jail or hospitalized.  She has thought about suicide (to be honest, so have I), but has never attempted it.

[Stalwart]

Hey Finn:

I guess you have a lot to read. Thanks for the outline. It really is encouraging to read that she does have some awareness and the ability at times to apologize. It's also really encouraging for you that she does seek you out to talk things out. Even if sometimes that enters into discussions that lead to the twilight zone.

"I embarrass her frequently with others as I share details that she would prefer to keep quiet." Yikes!


"She has thought about suicide (to be honest, so have I), but has never attempted it." That's a really big thing to admit my friend. You aren't alone. I'll bet there are quite a few of us who have been thrown into such dark and desperate places that we've shared that same experience. I'm really glad that you pulled your way through that. Only one way to go after that experience and that's up.  

[babyducks]

wonderful set of posts going here.   nice job.   great effort.  

I wanted to add this to the discussion on

From your perception what leads you to lean towards BPD?

this is a directly out of the book I mentioned upstream,  it helped me greatly identify behaviors that tied back to BPD traits and disordered thinking.

Margalis Fjelstad's book: Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist, p. 9 - 11  



Traits of BP/NP

Emotional Instability

- Emotional neediness, which may be covered up by a facade of independence

- Sudden emotional outbursts of rage and despair that seem random

- Belief that the emotions of the moment are totally accurate and will last forever

- Inaccurate memory of emotional events, even changing the meaning of the events after the fact

- Seeing their emotions as being caused by others or by events outside themselves, with no belief that they have any sort of control over their emotions

- Believing that the only way to change how they feel is to get other people or events to change

- Ongoing intense anxiety or fear

Thought Instability

- All-or-nothing thinking (ex. loving  you so intensely and then just as quickly reversing to hating you or thinking that they are a total failure, or conversely immensely superior)

- Intense belief in their own perceptions despite facts to the contrary

- Their interpretation of events is the only truth

- Cannot be persuaded by fact or logic

- Do not see the impact of their own behavior on others

- Deny the perceptions of others

- Accuse others of saying or doing things they didn't say or do

- Deny (even forget) negative or positive events from the past that conflict with current feelings

Behavioral Instability

- Impulsive behavior (ex. sexual acting out, reckless behavior, gambling, going into dangerous situations with little awareness

- Physically, sexually or emotionally abusive to others

- May cut, burn or mutilate themselves

- Often have addictions or other compulsive behaviors

- Create crises and chaos continuously

- Can go to suicidal thoughts when disappointed or disagreed with

Instability of a Sense of Self

- Intense fear or paranoia about being rejected, even to the extent that they need to be approved of by people they don't like

- Often change their persons, opinions or beliefs, depending on who they are with

- Lack of a consistent sense of self of who they are, or may have an overly rigid sense of self

- Often present a facade. May be fearful of being seen for "who I really am." Automatically assuming that they will be rejected or criticized.

- Out of sight, out of mind... .difficulty realizing that they or others exist when not together

- Simultaneously see themselves as both inferior and superior to others

Relationship Instability

- Instantly fall in love or instantly end a relationship with no logical explanation

- Hostile, devaluing attacks on loved ones, while being charming and pleasant to strangers

- Overidealization of others (difficulty allowing others to be less than perfect, be vulnerable or make mistakes)

- Have trouble being alone even for short periods of time,yet push others away by picking fights

- Blaming, accusing and attacking loved ones for small, even trivial mistakes or incidents

- May try to avoid anticipated rejection by rejecting the other person first

- Difficulty feeling loved if the other person is not around

- Unwilling to recognize and respect the limits of others

- Demand rights, commitments and behaviors from others that they are not willing or able to reciprocate

[Fian]

Stalwart, I wanted to respond to the rest of what you had posted.

First, yes, I agree I have a lot to learn.  I was joking when I said I was an expert, because at that moment everything was great.  I read a book, and changed my behavior, and she changed hers.  But we both knew that BPD doesn't work like that.  There are rough times ahead.  Both she and I will need to grow to handle them.

One area, that I have to disagree with you, though, is the following:

"I might even stretch this far enough to say there is no wrong or right perceptions – there is only differences in them."

I do believe in absolute truth.  It is the only thing that helps nons deal with BPD raging is that we know that what they are saying is not true.  Much of what a BPD says does not align with absolute truth, and as a result, it affects their lives and those around them in very negative ways.  Now having said that, just because I do not have BPD, does not mean my view is consistently in line with the absolute truth.  Everyone believes things that aren't true.  The difference between non and BPD is just the degree.  It makes having discussions with BPD difficult because parts of truth that nons would have little issue finding agreement can become impossible with a BPD.

I do agree that I should try and understand my BPD's viewpoint even if it is false.  Even if their viewpoint is based on a falsehood, their feelings on it are still just as strong (probably stronger) than feelings that a non has based on truth.  Those feelings can then be very destructive in their lives and what they need is love and compassion to help them move past those feelings before they become destructive.