Help with boundaries, please.

[Ceruleanblue]

I just reread the article on here dealing with boundaries. I think I've had a major lack of boundaries, in regards to a lot of people, but mostly with BPDh. I set a firm boundary yesterday with my daughter, and she chooses to view it as a threat. Did I do it wrong? I was firm, but only because we've had this discussion several times, but I never presented it as a boundary. I was calm, but I told her(after she spoke very disrespectfully to me) how I feel when she does that, and that if she can't speak to me respectfully, that she can go live elsewhere. Now, I don't want that to happen, but I don't know what else to do. She'd too old to punish, and I've put up with this too long. She's 19, and she takes all her moods out on me, and I've hit the wall with it. I want her to stay, finish college, and just be respectful. Heck, we don't even ask her to contribute, or do chores, she can at least be respectful. Did I present the boundary correctly?

And here is the harder one: I found out today that BPDh again lied to me. He was going to see his daughter that refuses to be around me, and I asked him if he could tell me if it would be this Saturday or Sunday. He comes to me later, and says HE thought Friday would be better. That messes with my plans. I questioned him if he changed days to accommodate her, and he lied to me saying he "thought it would be nicer to spend three days straight with me"(manipulating me, clearly). Well, today he slips and tells me that she did have plans this weekend, so he LIED to me, because I'd specifically asked him if he changed days to accommodate her. I'm sick to death of being lied to in regards to his kids or money matters.

So, he says he "takes responsibility" whatever that means, yet he spoke to me really rudely on the phone in front of one of his colleagues. I feel I need to set two boundaries: How he speaks to me, and how he lies to me.

I know how to phrase it, but I get stuck on the part of what I'll do to "take care of myself" if he does this again. He's going to see anything I do as "punishing him".

What is a good thing to do and what timeframe to set on it? I'm stuck on it in regards to these two things he does frequently. If it was just yelling, the action would be(after stating how "I" feel when he does that), when you yell at me I'm going to walk away and give myself an hour to take care of me. But I'm stuck as to what action is appropriate in regards to disrespectful talk and lies.

Ideas please, because I'm stumped.

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[Ceruleanblue]

Also, can someone explain the last part of boundary setting? I'm not even sure I understand it. I've always told my husband that this part of a boundary is not meant as a "punishment", but is meant to protect the individual setting the boundary. Trouble is, anything I do will be perceived, and maybe due to his saying it so much to me, sort of feels like setting a consequence for him, or punishing him.

And I still cannot think of an appropriate way to "take care of me", or action part of the boundary in regards to disrespectful talk and lies... .

[misuniadziubek]

I just reread the article on here dealing with boundaries. I think I've had a major lack of boundaries, in regards to a lot of people, but mostly with BPDh. I set a firm boundary yesterday with my daughter, and she chooses to view it as a threat. Did I do it wrong? I was firm, but only because we've had this discussion several times, but I never presented it as a boundary. I was calm, but I told her(after she spoke very disrespectfully to me) how I feel when she does that, and that if she can't speak to me respectfully, that she can go live elsewhere. Now, I don't want that to happen, but I don't know what else to do. She'd too old to punish, and I've put up with this too long. She's 19, and she takes all her moods out on me, and I've hit the wall with it. I want her to stay, finish college, and just be respectful. Heck, we don't even ask her to contribute, or do chores, she can at least be respectful. Did I present the boundary correctly?

That's not a boundary. That's a threat/ultimatum and you trying to manipulate her through threats. And not helpful to your relationship with your daughter.

It sounds more like there's an issue of communication in play here, and that definitely makes it more difficult to set boundaries.

Think of a boundary that you would be willing to enact.

For ex. If you are going to yell/use disrespectful words the conversation is over.

And also. You tried to set a boundary on the wrong thing. Stick to the issue at hand. Was the issue the thing you have talked about repeatedly or her disrespect? Cause setting a boundary is saying, if x continues then y will happen on my part.

Ie. If you keep using my car and not refiling the gas, I no longer will let you use it.

If you keep bringing over people at weird hours without consulting me beforehand, then you can't have people over. Maintain respect and open communication.

But threatening to kick her out over the way she talks?


Would you be willing to enact that? That's a pretty strict threat.

[Ceruleanblue]

Thanks for your input. I didn't mean it to be a threat, and I am willing to enforce it. I've decided that I am worth being treated nicely(I always thought I was, but never set boundaries). If we were always at home, I could just walk away, but she does this in the car, when we are out to dinner, pretty much everywhere. It's constant. I can't always just walk away. I end up crying in restaurants due to how she talks to me. She has good days too, but sometimes she gets in a cycle where she is awful to me for weeks on end. I love her so much, but I've obviously taught her that it's okay to treat me this way.

I did think this out before I said this to her. I've tried walking away, but she follows, and she just keeps it up. I'm sick of the apologies later, I just want it to stop. I never even addressed her weird relationship with my husband, because I did that with BPDh.

Can you think of a better way to deal with it, a better "action" part of my boundary? I want peace between us, and I don't disrespect her, and have to be so careful of how I say things to her due to how touchy she is. What would be a better "action" in response, that would also work while out in public?

[Ceruleanblue]

Oh, and I'm not sure if this is a communication problem per se. I mean, my daughter and I do tons of talking, and don't seem to misunderstand each other hardly ever. In fact, she almost never stops talking. She has OCD(as do I), and she repeats things until my eyes cross. This tends to set off my anxiety, but I don't take it out on her. The only issues I have with her are her manipulation of BPDh, and her huge lack of respect how she talks to me. If it wasn't so frequent, I could deal with it better, but it's constant. BPDh has gotten more respectful on the whole, but my kids have both been disrespectful for years.

All I want is to be treated the way I treat others. Period. I was never allowed to speak to my parents this way, probably because I knew there would be severe consequences. That never seemed to work with my kids, and now they are grown, and nearly grown. How do I enforce being treated respectfully? I'm sick of her tone, and exasperation, and disrespect.

I feel as if I'm not truly setting boundaries with anyone now.

[Notwendy]

I think at first, we have to practice at setting boundaries but over time, as we gain a sense of who we are, they become internal. When we have weak boundaries, we can have trouble with many people as a result. I learned in co-dependency groups that we teach others how to treat us. Some people are attracted to people with poor boundaries. If we set boundaries with them, they may choose to move on. Our fear of abandonment can cause us to not enforce boundaries.

Not all boundaries require strong absolute action. Now, if a family member did something horrible- there is probable reason to kick them out, call the police, whatever, but daily disrespect is something that was built over time. One idea is to not make a threat that you can not enforce. You might feel you can enforce asking your D to leave. It may be that she would benefit from being with a room mate at college like some other students her age, but it would be good if this was arranged in love with a respectful relationship. Her moving out might not result in the behavior you want.

I would suggest Patricia Evans' books on verbal abuse, not because I think your D is a verbal abuser ( most likely she's a snarky teen) but because it has good suggestions for stopping the disrespectful things like eye rolling, groaning, snarky comments. If you don't respond or engage when she is being this way, the behavior might diminish over time. It took time for this to happen, so it can take time for it to get better.

[Ceruleanblue]

I've read Patricia Evan's book, and I think the follow up book she wrote. Because these are my kids, I don't call it verbal abuse, but if they were anyone else, I would. I've taken more than I should due to lax boundaries, and because I sort of expected a certain amount of this because they are teens.

I don't want her to move out at all, but I also want this anger and moodiness always aimed at me to stop. I had a talk with her today, telling her all this, and stating that I would not ask her to move, and giving her an amended boundary: 

I stated that when she talks to me this way at home, I will walk away, or ask her to leave my presence, and if we are out in public we'll drive her home, and if it continues to happen, she won't be asked along with us anymore. She says this is still a "threat". I have a feeling she will say any boundary I enforce to keep ME safe, she'll say is not okay or is a threat.

I think my amended boundary is well within the guidelines stated here. I feel good about it. She of course doesn't like it because she has a pattern of venting her anger and frustration on me.

BPDh actually listened and accepted my boundary with him much better than my daughter did. I'm thinking his DBT is working to some extent. He still doesn't seem to "hear" his tone towards me, but I'm hoping he'll eventually work on that too. At least he's not wildly dysregulating, and he seems to understand that I have to start enforcing some boundaries for myself.

[Notwendy]

That's a great start-

It's hard to call is verbal abuse from a kid, but it is disrespectful and I think the books help with boundaries whatever we call it.

Eventually the boundaries become more internal. At first, someone can say something mean and it will hurt our feelings- because we love them and it hurts. Eventually we can get to a point where to comment doesn't get to us in the same way, and we don't engage with it. When the impact of the comment wears off, it can diminish, because the people using it don't get the benefit or power of using it. The do it because it works.

Why do they not do this with others? Because it doesn't work in the same way.

[OffRoad]

The boundary to being spoken to in a rude or disrespectful manner should always be the same. This might mean you have to change how you do things. For example, if she is disrespectful when you go to dinner, take two cars to get there. Then you can tell her that you have done nothing to be spoken to in that manner and if she does not stop, you will leave. And drive yourself home (you could even leave her with the bill if it moves you). Same with shopping. Just agree to meet there. If you don't each have a car, then don't go anywhere with her unless you either lay out the ground rules first, or when she behaves badly tell her straight up her behavior is not acceptable and if she doesn't stop, you will not be going with her in the future.

This is on you to set the boundary and enforce it. If you let it slide, she will continue to behave this way, just like a three year old.

In addition, the boundary of her living somewhere else if she cannot treat you with respect is valid. You should not be a prisoner of her abuse in your own house unless you choose to do that. But the boundary should be that you no longer choose to be disrespected in your own home. If she does not choose to speak to you in a respectful manner, then she needs to look to live somewhere where she can speak any way she chooses. This is a valid boundary. It's your house, your rules.

This is not the same a "kicking someone out" for being rude. It is making your own home habitable for you.

[Jessica84]

I see where you're stuck. I've been there. My bf used to scream at me - a lot. I used to tell him I'm not going to be screamed out like this, then sit there and allow him to continue yelling. Made no sense! Boundary went up: I asked him to stop screaming or I will leave. It took a lot of me leaving before he finally believed me and stopped screaming when asked the first time.

Saying "I will not tolerate" doesn't help us enforce the boundary. Having a plan of action does. Asking her to "be respectful" could also be more defined, as well as the "action" you'll take. A boundary looks like "if you do x, I will do y"... .

X = If you are rude... .raise your voice... .curse... .use that tone... .roll your eyes at me... . 

Y = I'm leaving... .going to my room and locking the door... .turning the car around... .not going to dinner with you... .

Then follow through and be consistent. It takes reinforcing. I know you're willing to force her to move, but there's probably some smaller steps you can take before getting to that one, especially since the goal isn't to make her leave but to speak to you nicer. A little validation may help too... .I can see you're frustrated with me. I want to hear what you have to say, but I'm not going to listen if you talk to me like this.

[Notwendy]

Boundaries are aspects of ourselves, what we are willing to defend- and what costs are we willing to pay to defend them.

It is common for people to start with boundaries on other people " you will not speak to me like that" "you will not lie". This is a start, but this also puts the boundary in their hands. The boundary is in your hands, not theirs. People will do what they choose- and they can also test the boundary.

Saying to an adult in your home " you will speak respectfully to me or leave" isn't an unreasonable boundary. The problem becomes- can you enforce this?- because you are also invested in your D finishing college and are concerned about her staying until then. Yet your D also wants to finish college too, so she should have some motivation.

It might be better for your D to be on her own at some point. Many college students her age live in dorms or off campus apartments. Is this an option? This doesn't have to be an " I am kicking you out now" thing ( hopefully not) but a "this is the next step to adulthood" . Sooner or later, she will need to be on her own. What is the next step- if she is at a community college- to transfer? if at a 4 year college there are usually dorms and off campus student housing.

This won't solve the disrespectful speech. You will need to make some plan to disengage from the conversation if it is disrespectful to you.

I don't know what to do about lying. I can't stop anyone from lying and if a lie is discovered, I don't know how productive a confrontation is. I remember being horrified when I discovered my mother was telling me lies. As a child, you naturally trust your mother- of all people, but I realized that my own mother can lie to me. I also recognized that the purpose was manipulation- not criminal- that she has ethical boundaries in the main things- she isn't destructive in the sense of stealing money, large lies, breaking the law. She's actually quite ethical in many ways, but those little manipulative lies, like changing plans, like your H said- are ways of saving face, still looking like the good guy. I don't think that they even think they are lying, because they can't bear to be seen in a bad light psychologically, so these lies might be believable self justifications to them.

I don't agree with lying. I think it is destructive to a relationship. However, I can't control someone else. One of my choices could be to break ties with my mother, but I don't choose to do this. I have to decide my bottom line. Now, if mom were robbing banks, or me,  I would need to make a different decision- keep a larger distance, press charges, but for now, I don't see the lies as malicious or criminal. The boundary I have is to decide what I will do in the face of them. One consequence is that I don't believe all that she says. If it is important to me, I will check the facts, if not, let it go. If she were to make up a story about changing plans, I would have to decide if changing plans was OK with me-regardless of the story, or not. I could choose to ignore the story, but if it were a larger violation, I might have to confront it.  

[Ceruleanblue]

Well, I think I've figured out the boundary issue with my daughter. The three of us were on our way to lunch(one car, although we all have our own car), and we stopped at a garage sale. My daughter spoke to me very disrespectfully more than once there, and then started lecturing me on the way back to the car. I was very calm, and I told BPDh to drive her home. She started apologizing, but I explained that we'd talked about this, and if she did this to me when we were out, she'd be driven home.

She spent two days mad at me, and she even went off on BPDh, and he finally stood up to her. Not sure how long that will last, as he feels really upset when she is upset at him(ironic how he idealizes her, but devalues me).

I'm sure it will take a lot of consistency, and maybe more trips out where we have to bring her home, or like was suggested, take separate cars, which she won't like at all. I think she is realizing though that I'm only asking for the bare minimum. I'm hopeful she'll catch on, and start to see that I will no longer put up with the rude manner in which she talks to me.

I still haven't come up with a way to set a boundary around BPDh's lying. I guess I'll address it next MC.