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Author Topic: Out of state  (Read 487 times)
Eco
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« on: May 28, 2015, 12:23:23 AM »

Am I overreacting here?  My ex left for vacation last Friday with my daughter, she refused to tell me where she was going with her and I found out that it was a cruise to Mexico.

Im pretty upset about this but I don't know if my feelings are misplaced. I wont be able to talk to my ex until next week and im not sure how im going to handle this. I feel that I should know where my daughter is going and especially if its on a cruise.

also I thought you had to get the other parents permission to take a child out of state. Last year my ex went on a cruise and I had to sign some form giving permission.
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« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2015, 07:58:43 AM »

I'm sorry that this happened. You have every right to be upset about this, what does your agreement say? In mine we are to notify each other of dates/places and phone numbers when taking the kids anywhere on vacation.
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« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2015, 04:28:41 PM »

... .she refused to tell me where she was going with her and I found out that it was a cruise to Mexico.

... .I wont be able to talk to my ex until next week

I see two concerns here.  First, refusing to give you at least some sort of itinerary is likely contrary to most orders.  Do you have documentation of her refusals?

Second, having no way to contact your child is possibly another matter of potential Contempt.  Unless tightened, most orders probably have a generic phrase "reasonable telephone contact.  What would your court consider "reasonable"?  When it became an issue in my case (my cell phone died in the middle of my 5 day stretch of parenting time and my ex claimed she couldn't make contact for the entire 5 days (I had changed my cell's greeting to instruct callers to use the house phone and we called her on the last day  ) and the magistrate ordered daily telephone contact, even during vacations.  Quite over the top but my court felt it was justified to change 'reasonable' to 'daily'.

What does the order state?  A basic vacation notice is just that, a notice and not a request for approval.  Where they can get complicated is whether by default or by added clauses it may restrict or add qualifying terms for some travel destinations.  Did you review and add conditions and limits?

You may have a valid basis to file for Contempt of Court but it is generally an uphill struggle to get the court to pay serious attention.  As some have written, Contempts - if you can get them - are often treated initially like parking tickets, minimal consequences until there's a stack of them.

If this is the first time filing for Contempt then the court may look for a way to minimize what happened, reasoning to put more thought into addressing future vacations.  Ex may take advantage of this concept: "Easier to ask for forgiveness than permission."

Do you think ex didn't need the permission slip last time and so figured she didn't need it this time either?  Or maybe she saved it and is planning to use it this year too?
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gherkins
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« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2015, 04:29:21 PM »

How was she able to take her out of the country without your permission?  She should have to have notarized documentation that you have approved the travel.
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livednlearned
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« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2015, 04:30:03 PM »

Even when I was married, I had to present a notarized letter from N/BPDx granting permission for me to travel into Canada alone with S13.

Maybe it's different depending on which country you travel to? Each border will have different agreements (Hague Treaty).

It was in my custody order that neither parent could travel out of country without alerting the other parent 30 days in advance.
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Eco
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« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2015, 06:51:07 PM »

Excerpt
what does your agreement say?

Unfortunately there is nothing in the order, my lawyer did a horrible write up on the order. Im about to go back to court with a new lawyer to try and get primary custody and if not at least correct the order and take out all the grey areas.

Excerpt
Do you have documentation of her refusals?

I asked her in a text message and got no response, we are only speaking through text or email.

Excerpt
Second, having no way to contact your child is possibly another matter of potential Contempt.  Unless tightened, most orders probably have a generic phrase "reasonable telephone contact.  What would your court consider "reasonable"? 



That's exactly the wording in my order, im going to address that when I go back to court.

Excerpt
What does the order state?  A basic vacation notice is just that, a notice and not a request for approval.  Where they can get complicated is whether by default or by added clauses it may restrict or add qualifying terms for some travel destinations.  Did you review and add conditions and limits?

The only thing in the order about vacations is letting the other person know the dates. another thing im going to address in court. any suggestions on what I should add?

Excerpt
You may have a valid basis to file for Contempt of Court but it is generally an uphill struggle to get the court to pay serious attention.  As some have written, Contempts - if you can get them - are often treated initially like parking tickets, minimal consequences until there's a stack of them.

If this is the first time filing for Contempt then the court may look for a way to minimize what happened, reasoning to put more thought into addressing future vacations.  Ex may take advantage of this concept: "Easier to ask for forgiveness than permission."

So far I have about 5 different contempt issues to address.

Excerpt
Do you think ex didn't need the permission slip last time and so figured she didn't need it this time either?  Or maybe she saved it and is planning to use it this year too?

Im not sure, I think she picked a spot to go where she didn't need a permission slip.

Excerpt
Maybe it's different depending on which country you travel to? Each border will have different agreements (Hague Treaty).

that's what im thinking
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« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2015, 07:14:19 PM »

I went through state department and blocked BPDxh from getting a passport for DD.  They advised me to contact foreign embassies with DD's and xh's pictures and info so they could block DD's entry into their countries and alert our state department if he attempted to enter their country with her.

At some point you gave permission for your child to have a passport and travel out of country.   Contact the State Department to see what you can do.
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Eco
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« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2015, 10:49:13 PM »

Excerpt
I went through state department and blocked BPDxh from getting a passport for DD.  They advised me to contact foreign embassies with DD's and xh's pictures and info so they could block DD's entry into their countries and alert our state department if he attempted to enter their country with her.

At some point you gave permission for your child to have a passport and travel out of country.   Contact the State Department to see what you can do.

Yes last year she went on a Disney cruise and I had to sign a permission slip. I will contact the state dept, thanks for the info

My main concern for my daughter going out of the country is she isn't vaccinated so I think she is at risk, especially on a cruise ship.
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livednlearned
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« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2015, 06:40:26 AM »

My main concern for my daughter going out of the country is she isn't vaccinated so I think she is at risk, especially on a cruise ship.

You might want to consult with a lawyer -- just a consultation -- to find out if there is anything you should do immediately. D is most likely plenty safe, I'm just thinking that if you want to use this as part of your strategic plan, you may need to show that you took certain steps, like calling the cruise line.

Does this vacation cut into your custodial time at all?

Chances are the court will look at it like, "Father gave permission to go once, he was not asked this time. Mom needs to do a better job getting permission from dad. D got to go on a fun cruise."

Unless it cut into your custodial time. And stacked with everything else, it may show a pattern of parental entitlement that the court doesn't like.

That's why I'm wondering if it might help to try and contact the cruise line and D, to make sure she is ok. Then you have a data point in your story that describes how you tried to contact her, and what you had to go through to make sure D was ok.

Usually, it's the parents who are flight risks that the court really hammers, and it doesn't sound like your ex is a flight risk by the court's definition anyway. Still, you want to show that mom is acting without regard to your parental role, and you had no way to contact D, maybe didn't even know what cruise ship she was on if something happened to her. 
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« Reply #9 on: May 30, 2015, 09:47:18 AM »

Hi Eco,

While looking for info about my son's passport, I came across this:

*"Closed-Loop" Cruises: If you are a U.S. citizen, and you board a cruise ship at a U.S. port, travel only within the Western Hemisphere, and return to the same U.S. port on the same ship, you may present government-issued photo identification, along with proof of citizenship (an original or certified copy of your birth certificate, a Consular report of Birth Abroad, or a Certificate of Naturalization). Please be aware that you may still be required to present a passport to enter the foreign countries your cruise ship is visiting. Check with your cruise line to ensure you have the appropriate documents.

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ForeverDad
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« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2015, 10:09:50 AM »

I believe this is the US State Dept link:

www.travel.state.gov/content/childabduction/english/preventing/passport-issuance-alert-program.html
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Eco
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« Reply #11 on: June 01, 2015, 08:12:43 PM »

Thanks guys for all the support and help, my daughter got back on Friday night.

My ex is in contempt of the court order, we are supposed to let each other know what weeks we are taking for our 2 non consecutive weeks of vacation. They run from 6pm sun to 6pm sun, On odd years my ex is to let me know by may 1st and im to let her know by may 15th and it doesn't start until june 1st.

I let my ex know my dates by may 15th and she only gave me 1 week and it was about 2 weeks late and also she picked may 24th which is before june 1st. It also ends on my weekend so I lose my weekend, I let my ex know this and she blew me off and said she would just let me have her weekend after she got back. that means I would have 2 weekends in a row, I had my doubts she would follow through with this.

No big surprise she didn't, she texted me on Friday asking me if I wanted to get my daughter tomorrow ( Saturday ) I thanked her for the offer but said we should keep it the way it was planned and I get her next weekend so I wouldn't lose a day. She responded that she had no clue what I was talking about and If I didnt want to get her then I lose the whole weekend but next weekend was her weekend.

I reminded her that she was in contempt and ended up getting my daughter on Saturday, I lost a day but we still had a great weekend.

I really don't understand how these people sleep at night, also when I dropped my daughter off to my ex I noticed the guy she got together with after me was back. this bothers me because they broke up and now hes back, I know there is nothing I can do about it but it cant be good for my daughter to be exposed to men coming and going like that.
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Panda39
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« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2015, 09:08:09 PM »

Glad your daughter's home safe and sound.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

Just keep documenting all of the ex's monkey business. 
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ForeverDad
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« Reply #13 on: June 02, 2015, 11:19:07 AM »

How about I tell you of all the contortions my court went through when my ex disregarded the vacation notice requirement?

It's about time I tell you what happened with my first post-divorce Contempt of Court motion.  Filed in April, it was rescheduled from June to July to August.  Yes, it was heard nearly 4 months after initial filing.  Enough said.

I waited a while to see if how I felt about it changed any.  Not really.  I'm jaded.  The court is too much concerned for technicalities and has lost common sense.  My ex has again skirted the rules, violated them and still managed to come out without being singed too badly.

It seemed such a strong, multi-pronged case... .  At court my lawyer told me that we would be proceeding only on her failure to properly notify me of her vacation with our son.  He said her behaviors at school causing the officials to deny my open enrollment there, her coming with police trying to track me down one weekend, her trading days with me and then not following through on the agreement, etc, were not enough for contempt.  Oh, yes, I mustn't forget she refused mediation which is in the orders.

Sounded like such a strong case.  Well, after going into the hearing room, out, in, lawyers in and out, the magistrate made a ruling.  No contempt of court... .technically.  The decision never faulted her for refusing mediation - the magistrate said that requirement didn't apply to Contempt cases - and of course the other items in my complaint weren't even mentioned at the hearing.

Huh, you say?  Well the court's reasoning went this way:

The mother admitted she didn't provide any written notice.  (She tried to make it seem I agreed with her verbal comments to me but she glossed over the fact that she never told me any dates whatsoever.)  The initial settlement approved by the court on aborted trial day defaulted to the county's rules that Spring Break vacations be notified in writing by February 15.  A few weeks later the Final orders and Shared Parenting Plan were approved by the court.  The SP plan made vacation requests less restrictive, only 30 days advance written notice is required.  Then she took her vacation 3 weeks later.  The court reasoned that though she was in violation of both provisions, but the first one no longer applied since the SP plan modified the date requirement and the second didn't apply since she had an "inability to comply" with the 30 day requirement with an order only 3 weeks old.  Therefore, she was not "technically" in contempt.

Oh, and the kicker?  She had taken him on her vacation the week following his school's Spring Break.  Yes, he also missed a week of school.  Okay, it was just kindergarten, but it won't be any surprise to you all that I wasn't the only one she left in the dark, she left and didn't tell the school either, I had to inform them belatedly.

So don't be surprised if the court views this like the time to hand out a parking ticket and maybe a brief lecture.
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Eco
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« Reply #14 on: June 02, 2015, 06:03:13 PM »

Excerpt
How about I tell you of all the contortions my court went through when my ex disregarded the vacation notice requirement?


Quote from: ForeverDad on September 29, 2008, 12:01:38 AM

It's about time I tell you what happened with my first post-divorce Contempt of Court motion.  Filed in April, it was rescheduled from June to July to August.  Yes, it was heard nearly 4 months after initial filing.  Enough said.

I waited a while to see if how I felt about it changed any.  Not really.  I'm jaded.  The court is too much concerned for technicalities and has lost common sense.  My ex has again skirted the rules, violated them and still managed to come out without being singed too badly.

It seemed such a strong, multi-pronged case... .  At court my lawyer told me that we would be proceeding only on her failure to properly notify me of her vacation with our son.  He said her behaviors at school causing the officials to deny my open enrollment there, her coming with police trying to track me down one weekend, her trading days with me and then not following through on the agreement, etc, were not enough for contempt.  Oh, yes, I mustn't forget she refused mediation which is in the orders.

Sounded like such a strong case.  Well, after going into the hearing room, out, in, lawyers in and out, the magistrate made a ruling.  No contempt of court... .technically.  The decision never faulted her for refusing mediation - the magistrate said that requirement didn't apply to Contempt cases - and of course the other items in my complaint weren't even mentioned at the hearing.

Huh, you say?  Well the court's reasoning went this way:

The mother admitted she didn't provide any written notice.  (She tried to make it seem I agreed with her verbal comments to me but she glossed over the fact that she never told me any dates whatsoever.)  The initial settlement approved by the court on aborted trial day defaulted to the county's rules that Spring Break vacations be notified in writing by February 15.  A few weeks later the Final orders and Shared Parenting Plan were approved by the court.  The SP plan made vacation requests less restrictive, only 30 days advance written notice is required.  Then she took her vacation 3 weeks later.  The court reasoned that though she was in violation of both provisions, but the first one no longer applied since the SP plan modified the date requirement and the second didn't apply since she had an "inability to comply" with the 30 day requirement with an order only 3 weeks old.  Therefore, she was not "technically" in contempt. shocked

Oh, and the kicker?  She had taken him on her vacation the week following his school's Spring Break.  Yes, he also missed a week of school.  Okay, it was just kindergarten, but it won't be any surprise to you all that I wasn't the only one she left in the dark, she left and didn't tell the school either, I had to inform them belatedly.

So don't be surprised if the court views this like the time to hand out a parking ticket and maybe a brief lecture

Wow, its disgusting how the court seems to side with disordered person and turns a blind eye to facts. My strategy is to go into court with a mountain of evidence that hopefully will be seen at least like a molehill. I have about 5 contempt instances against my ex so far, not to mention all the other evidence I have. I started a journal of every pick up and drop off and every incident big or small with dates, im actually on my second notebook and I have text, email and a few videos to back up my journals. 
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ForeverDad
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« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2015, 09:26:41 AM »

Wow, its disgusting how the court seems to side with disordered person and turns a blind eye to facts. My strategy is to go into court with a mountain of evidence that hopefully will be seen at least like a molehill. I have about 5 contempt instances against my ex so far, not to mention all the other evidence I have. I started a journal of every pick up and drop off and every incident big or small with dates, I'm actually on my second notebook and I have text, email and a few videos to back up my journals.

While we do have to do that, understand it could make us look strange.  I recall my Custody Evaluation in 2007.  After a year's struggle (a story in itself) I had at that time recently obtained my son's therapy records.  No wonder the agency stonewalled me for so long - to be involved in therapy and to obtain preschooler's records - by referring to me as likely to be a danger to child and others, it was filled with then-stbEx posturing herself and preschooler as victims and me as controlling abuser.  (This despite CPS having told the court over a year before that they had "no concerns" about me.  This despite me having the 'standard' alternate weekends so many fathers get.  StbEx had temp custody and their position was to only listen to the custodial parent.)

Back to my story.  I got over 200 pages of records by court order.  I brought a copy in a 3 ring binder in to the CE, an experienced child psychologist with a spotless reputation, with dozens and dozens of yellow stickies disputing her unsupported claims.  In his initial report he remarked how I was so focusing on disproving or contesting every detail of her claims.  He thought I went overboard.  But I had the same concern you have, that without overwhelming documentation it could be minimized and mostly ignored.  I had to risk looking hyper-vigilant, a behavior my ex had.

Fortunately the summary contained valid conclusions... .Mother cannot share 'her' child but Father can... .Mother should immediately lose temporary custody... .If shared parenting is attempted and fails then father should have custody.
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