No wonder S10 hates you

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

You’re an Ass…... .You’re Paranoid……... .no wonder S10 hates you….”

….is what I was told in a coparent counseling session this past Wednesday evening.

Right now our S10 is having a very difficult time in school.  Over the last month he’s been suspended twice for hitting teachers, aids, yelling at the principal and a bunch of other stuff.  He would have been suspended yesterday for head butting his aid but was not as the aid did not follow procedure (put his hands on S10 and escalated a confrontation) so this episode is conveniently going undocumented.  

After the first suspension school proposed to move him to the district’s emotional support school.  Since this recommendation as made exNPDBPDw has made every excuse in the book to “support” S10. It is very similar to how she treats her own behavior, blame someone else and come up with excuses.  She is not at all thinking in S10’s best interest.  She is hell bent on attacking the school district.

Yesterday was Field Day.  S10s brother had a great morning.  Then I got the call that S10 was having an issue.  I go to school and get the news.  Sit with him and the guidance counselor for awhile.  The incident with the aid happened at lunch just before field day was to get underway.  These types of unroutine days adversely affect S10 and the untrained aid’s handling of the situation didn’t help.  He was at times sobbing over the incident.  

So, I’m at school and leave with S10.  The Principal (who was weeks previously told to call mother, first) asks if she should contact mother.  I say no, I’ll do it, so I text, telling her what happened.  Her first response, “why don’t I get a call,” and, “is there more to the story?”  So it’s mom’s day, but I have S10.  Mother demands I drop him off with her so she “gets to” talk to him too, and that I can’t “alienate him” on her days.  Huh?  What does this mean!  We go back and forth, S10 is wiped out from the events and lying down, contently.  Mother tells me it is “wrong” me keeping S10 from her and that she is picking up S8 at 3:30.  I’m home and would have picked up S8 just to make smoother/fewer transitions.  Mother’s response, and my time starts at 5 and S8 has a game at 6, “I’m taking S8 to his game.”  Power play.  I say I’m showing up with the police to pick him up, she says bring it on.  

Mother always seems to demand to see S10 immediately after these incidents and I know she interrogates him collecting any and all information about what everyone else has done.  So she can blame someone else.  But, in this case, and after the last incident, I ask S10, I said, “S10, mommy wants me to drop you off so she can talk to you about what happened,” and when I say this he says “no” he doesn’t want to talk to her.  This may be pushing the line of appropriateness but I feel I have to ask him.

Fortunately my girlfriend showed up and talked me down.  I was in the car and ready to go to mother’s house and call the cops.  

We disagree on the change of school.  I see the good in it, mother has thrown up every conceiveable roadblock including, “it WILL be worse if he goes to School Y!”  Translation, “I’ll make it worse so I’m right”  

So the school thing was the topic at Wed. night’s session.  Obvious she was angry and dug her heels in, not budging.  She was recently certified for special education so she is now an “expert” on the topic and discusses every little procedural nuance that school has allegedly not done.  I counter with, ”All that crap has nothing to do with getting S10 the services he needs.”   I forget if this is when I was an ass or not.  

I bit my tongue through it all.  Until the hate statement.  I looked at the counselor and explained what had been happening for years with a representative example when S10 was four, she used to tell him, “Daddy hates Mommy.”  

I also noted that there have been instances at recent activities when mother has interfered with my time with the boys.  One example when I wanted to leave a game and she insisted that she get to buy S10 a chipwich after his game because “it was hot” out there.  Always a justification but no recognition that, this just shouldn’t happen in front of children in particular one with severe emotional issues.      

Through all of this the counselor is “neutral” and offers no criticism other than, “STOP!” in mother’s direction.  He notes that the kid picks up on the tension and the conflict between us.  I ask, “what if we have a situation where one of the parents cannot control themselves from negatively engaging the other parent in front of the child.”  His response, “each of you is responsible for your own actions around the children.”  This was simply an insufficient response.  

The counselor is also chanting that we take S10 to sessions together so we can show him that there are things that we agree on, him.  I expressed my concern with this in that I feel S10 feels obligated to appease mother when speaking.  He repeated that S10 would see us agreeing and supporting him.  Still makes me uneasy.

After yesterday’s incident I went to the school admin building and signed the paper to allow school to begin implementing the new IEP.  Move S10 in the fall to the ES school.  Mother has not found out yet.  

My relationship with S10 is not strong but I feel I am doing what’s best for him.  But, I’m sure his mother will talk to him about, “daddy is sending you to a new school because he says you’re a bad kid.”

I did speak with my L last week about what was going on and what could be done.  She tells me that to get the REAL psychological evaluation that mother was supposed to get four years ago, I would likely have to petition for full custody in front of the master, master would shoot it down, and we would appeal to a judge.  She’s also telling me that to do all of this, I would likely have to pay for a CE since I’m asking for all of this.  Pay for a CE, $6-8000, to get the psych eval from four years ago.  Also telling me blatantly that "our court system is horrible."

Through all of this mother is not taking S10 to his weekly social skills classes conveniently using his infrequent Wed. evening baseball practice as an excuse.  Practice starts at 6, social skills at 5.  She is also not participating in our Wrap Around services by ignoring phone calls from the clinician that works with S10.  So he can only come to my house, 50% of the time, to work with S10.  

On one hand she’s putting the school in due process, on the other hands she’s not taking every opportunity to get S10 help outside of school.  

[scraps66]

You’re an Ass…... .You’re Paranoid……... .no wonder S10 hates you….”

….is what I was told in a coparent counseling session this past Wednesday evening.

Right now our S10 is having a very difficult time in school.  Over the last month he’s been suspended twice for hitting teachers, aids, yelling at the principal and a bunch of other stuff.  He would have been suspended yesterday for head butting his aid but was not as the aid did not follow procedure (put his hands on S10 and escalated a confrontation) so this episode is conveniently going undocumented.  

After the first suspension school proposed to move him to the district’s emotional support school.  Since this recommendation as made exNPDBPDw has made every excuse in the book to “support” S10. It is very similar to how she treats her own behavior, blame someone else and come up with excuses.  She is not at all thinking in S10’s best interest.  She is hell bent on attacking the school district.

Yesterday was Field Day.  S10s brother had a great morning.  Then I got the call that S10 was having an issue.  I go to school and get the news.  Sit with him and the guidance counselor for awhile.  The incident with the aid happened at lunch just before field day was to get underway.  These types of unroutine days adversely affect S10 and the untrained aid’s handling of the situation didn’t help.  He was at times sobbing over the incident.  

So, I’m at school and leave with S10.  The Principal (who was weeks previously told to call mother, first) asks if she should contact mother.  I say no, I’ll do it, so I text, telling her what happened.  Her first response, “why don’t I get a call,” and, “is there more to the story?”  So it’s mom’s day, but I have S10.  Mother demands I drop him off with her so she “gets to” talk to him too, and that I can’t “alienate him” on her days.  Huh?  What does this mean!  We go back and forth, S10 is wiped out from the events and lying down, contently.  Mother tells me it is “wrong” me keeping S10 from her and that she is picking up S8 at 3:30.  I’m home and would have picked up S8 just to make smoother/fewer transitions.  Mother’s response, and my time starts at 5 and S8 has a game at 6, “I’m taking S8 to his game.”  Power play.  I say I’m showing up with the police to pick him up, she says bring it on.  

Mother always seems to demand to see S10 immediately after these incidents and I know she interrogates him collecting any and all information about what everyone else has done.  So she can blame someone else.  But, in this case, and after the last incident, I ask S10, I said, “S10, mommy wants me to drop you off so she can talk to you about what happened,” and when I say this he says “no” he doesn’t want to talk to her.  This may be pushing the line of appropriateness but I feel I have to ask him.

Fortunately my girlfriend showed up and talked me down.  I was in the car and ready to go to mother’s house and call the cops.  

We disagree on the change of school.  I see the good in it, mother has thrown up every conceiveable roadblock including, “it WILL be worse if he goes to School Y!”  Translation, “I’ll make it worse so I’m right”  

So the school thing was the topic at Wed. night’s session.  Obvious she was angry and dug her heels in, not budging.  She was recently certified for special education so she is now an “expert” on the topic and discusses every little procedural nuance that school has allegedly not done.  I counter with, ”All that crap has nothing to do with getting S10 the services he needs.”   I forget if this is when I was an ass or not.  

I bit my tongue through it all.  Until the hate statement.  I looked at the counselor and explained what had been happening for years with a representative example when S10 was four, she used to tell him, “Daddy hates Mommy.”  

I also noted that there have been instances at recent activities when mother has interfered with my time with the boys.  One example when I wanted to leave a game and she insisted that she get to buy S10 a chipwich after his game because “it was hot” out there.  Always a justification but no recognition that, this just shouldn’t happen in front of children in particular one with severe emotional issues.      

Through all of this the counselor is “neutral” and offers no criticism other than, “STOP!” in mother’s direction.  He notes that the kid picks up on the tension and the conflict between us.  I ask, “what if we have a situation where one of the parents cannot control themselves from negatively engaging the other parent in front of the child.”  His response, “each of you is responsible for your own actions around the children.”  This was simply an insufficient response.  

The counselor is also chanting that we take S10 to sessions together so we can show him that there are things that we agree on, him.  I expressed my concern with this in that I feel S10 feels obligated to appease mother when speaking.  He repeated that S10 would see us agreeing and supporting him.  Still makes me uneasy.

After yesterday’s incident I went to the school admin building and signed the paper to allow school to begin implementing the new IEP.  Move S10 in the fall to the ES school.  Mother has not found out yet.  

My relationship with S10 is not strong but I feel I am doing what’s best for him.  But, I’m sure his mother will talk to him about, “daddy is sending you to a new school because he says you’re a bad kid.”

I did speak with my L last week about what was going on and what could be done.  She tells me that to get the REAL psychological evaluation that mother was supposed to get four years ago, I would likely have to petition for full custody in front of the master, master would shoot it down, and we would appeal to a judge.  She’s also telling me that to do all of this, I would likely have to pay for a CE since I’m asking for all of this.  Pay for a CE, $6-8000, to get the psych eval from four years ago.  Also telling me blatantly that "our court system is horrible."

Through all of this mother is not taking S10 to his weekly social skills classes conveniently using his infrequent Wed. evening baseball practice as an excuse.  Practice starts at 6, social skills at 5.  She is also not participating in our Wrap Around services by ignoring phone calls from the clinician that works with S10.  So he can only come to my house, 50% of the time, to work with S10.  

On one hand she’s putting the school in due process, on the other hands she’s not taking every opportunity to get S10 help outside of school.  

[whirlpoollife]

I was planning on having an evaluation done on xh right in the beginning but my L said no matter what the outcome of it, if kids, then 12 and 15 tell the GAL that they want to live with dad then they do.  So at age ten, in a couple years it can be the same for S10. 

I know your L said you need the evaluation but is there anyway for you to go before the master with what you have said here? Or would he just send you to more , " can't we all just get along parenting classes"

Thats a good move that you went to the school to sign  the papers to start S in the ES school.

She going to complain no matter what. 

[livednlearned]

It seems significant that the school called you, and not mom.

They support you and seem to get who the problem is. Can they testify before the master? I agree that court is messed up, but your lawyer is doing you no favors trying to make it sound like you will lose. My lawyer was always trying to manage my expectations, but when we locked into a strategy, she was all in and I felt her confidence in our approach, even if she could not guarantee the outcome. Nothing in court is a slam dunk.

It also seems significant that S10 did not want to see his mom. He must sense on some level that she puts her foot on the gas and jacks him up, and wants to avoid that happening.

The coparent counselor is not skilled at this -- Bill Eddy talks about how ineffective coparenting is for high-conflict divorces. I would worry that this person could be brought in to testify, and would end up saying both parents are a problem. But if I remember correctly, this person is court-ordered? Would your ex think the counselor is an ally at all?

The challenge is that you cannot make any missteps, no documentation or interaction with your ex, nor with the school, can be construed as you being in any way a part of the conflict. Your ex might do 20 things wrong, and you do 1, but in court it just looks like both parents are the problem.

[scraps66]

LnL I think my L is being brutally honest with me.  She would have a plan, she knows what I would have to do, file for full custody to the Master, attorney  he won't make a decision, and we appeal to a judge.  The Custody Master is terrible, has no family law or court experience, a political appointee, and she claims eh "wants to be a judge."  He's just not trained for the job. 

I have however wondered if a different L would be better.  This one is not exactly charismatic in presenting or defending issues and ex has one of those overly dramatic negative advocate slobs for a L.  The ones that can only work and get by in my incompetent courthouse.

The coparent counselor is just taking the extreme neutral position.  I have in private blatantly stated my concern with ex's mental state of mind.  The whole discussion about starting a mild conflict in front of S10 at a baseball game, on my time, when I wanted to leave and she wanted to have this back and forth about why she should get to buy him a chipwich, I asked how this could be avoided if one parent just can't control themselves.  He talks about a conflict free environment being a key for a child's development.  He simply said - in neutral - "you're both responsible for your behavior in front of the kids."  How does that sound to a BP?

I have not heard any backlash yet from me signing the NOREP allowing school to implement the new IEP.  It may be the case that ex is going to get a lawyer.     

LnL, where does Bill Eddy discuss the fallacy of coparent counseling?  On his website?  I'll need to be able to succinctly explain why this doesn't work with a crazy.

[livednlearned]

LnL I think my L is being brutally honest with me.

It sounds like it. I just remember the first L I talked to was brutally honest, "You will never get sole custody." It influenced me, and made me lower my expectations, but also changed my goals. Then I consulted with my current L, who said, "Sole custody is hard to get at first, but if your ex continues to behave the way he is now, eventually we could get sole custody." She was brutally honest, too, about how badly she had seen other cases go. But I felt that she was committed to helping me reach my goal. So I guess that's what worries me about your L, that she would try and talk you out of what's best for your situation, instead of aiming high and putting together a good strategy.

I have however wondered if a different L would be better.  This one is not exactly charismatic in presenting or defending issues and ex has one of those overly dramatic negative advocate slobs for a L. 

It sounds like your L does not have a dynamic court presence. I think that counts for something -- I'm not sure if it's charisma or what it is, but I did notice over the years that my L was particularly good at trying cases in court. My L was a former trial lawyer, so I figure half if not more of all trial lawyers are narcissists because they love the spotlight. I don't think my L is a narcissist, I just think she knows her way around the courtroom, and knows how to pitch to the judge.

The coparent counselor is just taking the extreme neutral position.

 

How frustrating. Imagine if you did adopt a no-conflict approach with your ex. Your ex could say S10 will go live in Siberia for a year and you're supposed to roll over and let that happen? My T told me it was good for S13 to see me assert myself with N/BPDx and have strong boundaries. I did have to be calm to a fault, but to my surprise repeating the same phrase over and over did seem to have a positive effect, at least in terms of de-escalating the conflict in the moment. When N/BPDx came to the door (not permitted per the court order), I must have said, "Return to your car" about 20 times before he finally turned around and returned to his car. It was so strange to say that phrase in a monotone over and over for that long 

I have not heard any backlash yet from me signing the NOREP allowing school to implement the new IEP.  It may be the case that ex is going to get a lawyer.

 

Will you need to get a lawyer? Or I'm guessing your ex will be getting a lawyer to stop the school?     

LnL, where does Bill Eddy discuss the fallacy of coparent counseling?  On his website?  I'll need to be able to succinctly explain why this doesn't work with a crazy.

It was during the webinar he held back in early May through this site. Basically for the reasons you shared here. They have to take an extreme neutral position, and that doesn't work with someone who is BPD. It's the reason he developed the Family Connections program or whatever it's called.

[david]

I think the school calling you is a big deal. IMO they are telling you they get it but they do have to be cautious because of legal consequences. Set up a meeting with them to see how they would approach S10 getting transferred and what you can do to help the process with the least amount of conflict with his mom. Letting them know you want same thing for S10 can be very helpful. They may not openly say what they think about ex. They may have to have you read between the lines.

I found that when they start talking carefully they are telling me they are treading on legal lines. I have replied rather bluntly, always staying focused on our sons needs, and our school will either say no fairly obviously (if I am not interpreting correctly) or agree without putting their necks in a legal quagmire.

[livednlearned]

david raises a good point -- the school probably knows this is headed to a legal fight. You can't record the conversations, but if you aren't scribbling down the conversations after they occur, it might be a good idea to start doing that now.

I kept a timeline of events in Google calendar. I would enter things in the event field and then when it came time to try and recreate the timeline, I printed everything out as an agenda, and it arranged everything in a nice chronological view. My L used this during two of our hearings and the deposition, and in the first hearing she referenced the timeline in court before the judge. She would say, "My client takes meticulous notes in her calendar and according to her timeline... ."

The timeline did not swing things one way or another, but my L wanted to make it clear to the judge that this was part of my character, the kind of adult who takes careful notes and keep track of everything. I can't say how the judge took it, but I do feel that it was one of those persuasive moments where people decided I was the more clued in parent who knew exactly what was going on with S13.

Whereas N/BPDx would reference things as though they all went together, lumping together a bunch of events as though they were related. My L would ask him when those events happened, who was at the meetings, what was the meeting for. This would stump him because typically he just pulled things out of the air.

L would say, "According to my client's timeline, she wrote to you on day/date, and day/date, and day/date, and you did not respond until day/date, almost two months later. In the meantime, in order to meet the deadline for services, the psychiatrist's recommendation was required by day/date, which you were asked about on day/date, day/date and day/date. You sent my client over 50 emails during this period, and do not reference the request to participate once, and ignore all requests to be involved. Instead, you call my client, and I quote, "whore" "gold digger" "@sshole" "lying sack of sh!t" "piece of sh!t and "sack of sh!t." You threaten to destroy her reputation and report her to the authorities, prevent her from advancing in her career, blah blah blah."

"Please explain to the court how my client is acting unilaterally when she makes more than a reasonable effort to involve you. Please also explain to the court how my client could possibly focus on providing S13 with the services he desperately needed when your interactions with my client are not only stonewalling, but they are insulting, demeaning, and adversarial."

It also made me feel confident that I knew when things happened, and who was there, what the meetings were about because when N/BPDx started to interrogate me, in the past I would get flustered and shut down. Knowing the timeline as well as I did helped me stay grounded so I could just focus on the facts. It was like take a test under tremendous pressure and really knowing the material, better than anyone in the court. I don't think judges and lawyers are accustomed to seeing parents pull that kind of information out in court, especially in high conflict cases where the assumption seems to be that both parents are messed up. 

[david]

You can't record the conversations but if you need to so that it will help you write things down afterwards. You just have to delete or not bring it up in court. Remember that if you do that your notes can't be verbatim unless you can show that your memory is that precise.

I am a school teacher and have been in meetings like this so it is the "normal" way things are done. There are four ways it can go. Both parents are there and are on the same page. Both parents are there and they are not on the same page. The parent that you can work with is there alone or the other parent is just there. There are variations within those four conditions too.

[scraps66]

S10 got suspended again yesterday.  That's three times in six weeks.  It would have been four times but one of his aids tried manhandling him during that incident, two weeks ago, and the principal knew the aid was wrong.  So she couldn't suspend him.  This time, throwing chairs, trash cans, etc.

The aids he has are not properly trained to handle his episodes and it's now an issue.  Ex had made the aid, just having one, a thing with S10 last summer.  She wanted the aid gone, and talked to him about it.  We cut back on the aid, it went OK for some time.  Then three months ago, he just digressed.

The only coincidence I can come up with, of significance, is at that very time I had a conversation in front of the coparent counselor that, "it would be good if our WrapAround Clinician could go, both to my house, and mom's house, to work with S10."  From this point on, ex contacted the clinician "once" and had him meet with S10, once, at her house.  My paranoid side tells me that mother is somehow undermining the effectiveness of the wrap clinician.  With all this help around him, there doesn't seem to be any reason that his behavior would digress so suddenly, beginning at the same time. 

We talked about this the last session, I asked why she wasn't returning the clinician's calls.  She said narcissistically, "We never said that the clinician had to come to my house."  Something like that.  maybe we didn't, but I think we should agree, that this is something that could, if properly supported consistently, help S10.  And mom is not doing it.   

[Eco]

My paranoid side tells me that mother is somehow undermining the effectiveness of the wrap clinician.  With all this help around him, there doesn't seem to be any reason that his behavior would digress so suddenly, beginning at the same time. 

Just my 2 cents, I don't think your being paranoid at all. Your ex sounds a lot like mine NPD, my experience with councilors with my ex for us and her own kids was this, If the councilor even hinted that my ex was at fault or that she needed to work on something or do something my ex didn't agree with she would quit the councilor or go the opposite direction of the advice of the councilor just so it would fail and she could say see she (the councilor) doesn't know what she is talking about.

my ex has to be right and it has to be her idea, her way or it wont work ( in her mind ) she will definitely sabotage or undermine any attempts of help even at her kids expense if its not her idea. the last couples councilor we saw had to be picked out by my ex because the ones I picked were no good  eventually the councilor was painted black because she started siding with me after she saw what my ex said about me was far from the truth. The councilor refused to continue with my ex and actually advised that I get custody of my daughter and set me up with a lawyer she knew.

does this sound like your ex?

[scraps66]

Eco, yes, I may not be able to describe my ex better than you just did.  It's exactly this way.  It is very difficult to explain to therapists, attorneys, judges, etc. the way this behavior works. 

[Eco]

It is very difficult to explain to therapists, attorneys, judges, etc. the way this behavior works. 

Its almost impossible to explain without looking like a jerk or bitter or just trying to run them down. I try to let time tell the truth where my ex is concerned, my ex eventually shows her true colors.

[Eco]

It is very difficult to explain to therapists, attorneys, judges, etc. the way this behavior works. 

AS far as the legal system goes I think it should be required to be educated in mental health issues like PDs. as much as they see it.

My experience has driven me to go back to school, my goal is to become a guardian ad litem

[Panda39]

My experience has driven me to go back to school, my goal is to become a guardian ad litem

Nice! 

[JIMB]

my ex has to be right and it has to be her idea, her way or it wont work ( in her mind ) she will definitely sabotage or undermine any attempts of help even at her kids expense if its not her idea. the last couples councilor we saw had to be picked out by my ex because the ones I picked were no good  eventually the councilor was painted black because she started siding with me after she saw what my ex said about me was far from the truth. The councilor refused to continue with my ex and actually advised that I get custody of my daughter and set me up with a lawyer she knew.

does this sound like your ex?

Yep I can relate 100% to this story. My little D8 got suspended from school 3 times in a row one year, and the BPDexw just blamed everyone at the school and got the point of verbally abusing a young boy school because she caught him apparently teasing D8. This forced the teacher run out & tell her off & then she started yelling at the teacher? When any rational grown adult would have simply asked for the boys name 7 gone & discussed the matter with the teacher? She also stormed out of several parent teacher meetings, and was eventually served a notice to stay away from the school grounds... .I am apparently the crazy and angry one out of the two of us? Go figure.

Will be very difficult to resolve all this but your best method might be try and force a court sanctioned mental health assessment of your ex by filing for custody and control over the welfare of your kids.