Standing Firm in Her Storm 3...

[MaroonLiquid]

Hi ML,

I have been following. You are right, your wife is triggered over money issues understandably.

If you can continue to validate how worrying this must be for her, whilst saying NO to anything else, this will pass as always.

That is the plan.  Question... .My wife seems to "sidestep" my validation at times now.  Let me give you an example.  Yesterday, I said, "This situation has to be extremely difficult on you, especially when you have so much going on with the kids.  It sucks when there is no easy solution. I would be pissed and freaking out too!"  Her response, "I'm not mad and I'm not freaking out.  Actually I have peace in the midst of this."     Is that why you have texted and called me a bunch (extinction burst)?    

Perhaps best over the phone because of the car incident last time.

Remember you do not have to explain your NO, it is just that. Your calm and compassionate  approach with her will help her navigate this current crisis.

I did this over text as I learned my lesson.     My car thanks me.  I try to be as calm and compassionate as I can be.  I know that is what she is seeking ultimately. Someone that can stay calm in the midst of her raging storm.  i won't be a whipping post though.

My personal approach is to give direct answers (which can get me into trouble   ).  In this case, though, I think it might help as she is not respecting your evasive answers. 

Why do you think my answers are evasive?  I feel like when I say, "Because we have separate households to pay for, I don't have any extra money" is being direct.  She was the original reason why we have separate households.  I have reminded her of that before, but quit as I didn't want her to feel any worse than she already did about herself.

If your decision is that you won't be helping her financially, then I think it is best to say it, maybe at the end of a SET.  I would personally give a brief explanation as to why (maybe, your finances are separate now, and you are trying to improve your finances too), however I guess that may be viewed as JADEing.  Personally, I would like to know why a person is telling me No.

See last comment... .I believe that gives an explanation.  She may not like it but its the truth... .Thoughts?

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[sweetheart]

ML, if she sidesteps the validation, then just accept that she perhaps wanted to vent. As long as the vent doesn't meander off into meaness and she knows where you stand on the money/IRS issues then if you can listen and keep validating the underlying emotion then this will help diffuse the situation.

I've got some other thoughts but will come back to them later, just off on school run. 

[Fian]

Based on your last response, it does sound like you gave her a direct answer.

[Grey Kitty]

Go light on WHY you aren't giving her any money, except that you have separate finances.

Be clear that you won't be giving her money for (whatever she is asking for money for this time).

You don't have to repeat yourself often but don't equivocate.

You can refuse to discuss it at bad times. You can say "no". Avoid "maybe" type answers. Don't let her get her hopes up.

[MaroonLiquid]

Go light on WHY you aren't giving her any money, except that you have separate finances.

Be clear that you won't be giving her money for (whatever she is asking for money for this time).

You don't have to repeat yourself often but don't equivocate.

You can refuse to discuss it at bad times. You can say "no". Avoid "maybe" type answers. Don't let her get her hopes up.

This is definitely what I'm trying to do.  I even offered help in non-monetary ways to show that I am concerned.  My wife and I haven't spoken since I told her I was spending time with my son and that I would text her later.  

[MaroonLiquid]

Go light on WHY you aren't giving her any money, except that you have separate finances.

Be clear that you won't be giving her money for (whatever she is asking for money for this time).

You don't have to repeat yourself often but don't equivocate.

You can refuse to discuss it at bad times. You can say "no". Avoid "maybe" type answers. Don't let her get her hopes up.

This is definitely what I'm trying to do.  I even offered help in non-monetary ways to show that I am concerned.  My wife and I haven't spoken since I told her I was spending time with my son and that I would text her later.  

Well, since I told my wife "No" regarding money, she is now going through another extinction burst by not communicating that our daughter won't be at practice.  She does this to "get back at me" when she gets mad.  Frankly, I'm not going to put up with it and I don't put my daughters before the team, ever.  Her not bringing her isn't hurting me, it's hurting our daughter who needs the reps.  We haven't had our parent/player commitments/expectations meeting yet (happening on 16 July), but included in that meeting will deal with consequences from absences.  This is hard because her mom is doing this, not our daughter so I don't know how to deal with that other than to remove her from team activities for a couple of weeks.  My wife has to know there is consequences for her actions.  Any ideas?

[Fian]

I would say to go carefully on this one, for the sake of your daughter.  It isn't fair that your daughter is in the middle of your marital issue, and while your wife is the one who put her there, you don't need to add to it either.  Can you offer your daughter a make-up session for the time lost (I know baseball is a team sport, so maybe it isn't possible)?

[MaroonLiquid]

I would say to go carefully on this one, for the sake of your daughter.  It isn't fair that your daughter is in the middle of your marital issue, and while your wife is the one who put her there, you don't need to add to it either. 

I agree that my daughter shouldn't be punished, however... .

Can you offer your daughter a make-up session for the time lost (I know baseball is a team sport, so maybe it isn't possible)?

If my wife isn't speaking to me (ST), then she won't let me around my daughter to make that practice up.  My hands are tied.  That's why I need advice.  My daughter shouldn't suffer, but she is suffering at my wife's hands and since she isn't mine biologically, not a whole lot I can do.  I will not give her treatment different than any other player.

[Fian]

You could try and text the punishment message to your wife.  That gives her the ability to negotiate directly with you instead of involving your daughter, at least initially.

[MaroonLiquid]

You could try and text the punishment message to your wife.  That gives her the ability to negotiate directly with you instead of involving your daughter, at least initially.

Yeah, that was my plan.  I guess DEARMAN is the best technique for this type of disucssion?

[sweetheart]

ML how old is your stepdaughter ? Just curious.

If it were me I would wait and address all the parents as a whole when telling your wife about the consequences of missed games.

If you address this with your wife directly this might create an opening for more conflict which is what you want to avoid.

[MaroonLiquid]

My daughter is almost 13.  I thought about taking care of it at the meeting also which is pretty non-confrontational and it lays it out there as not directing it at anyone person.

[sweetheart]

ML non-confrontational is better and it keeps it away from your relationship. Nice neutral territory 

[MaroonLiquid]

ML non-confrontational is better and it keeps it away from your relationship. Nice neutral territory 

Went to softball practice tonight for All-Stars that all three of my daughters play on currently (they are all on my select team but we aren't playing tournaments until All-Stars is over) and my wife brought our daughter (and older daughter with her) to that practice but not to our select practices earlier this week.  I gave some stuff to my ex-wife that my kids left at my apartment over the weekend and said, "Hey guys." To my wife and older daughter sitting in the bleachers.  My wife didn't say a word but our oldest daughter talked to me a little bit.  I talked to my ex wife and my son at the same time and it didn't bother me at all that my wife didn't speaks. In fact it was kind of a relief!   . Anyway, GK's comment has really stuck with me that my wife only treats people this way that she's really close to.  That's unfortunate.

[sweetheart]

It is unfortunate 

[Grey Kitty]

Question for you as a coach. If another kid (not yours) was missing practice, and it was weird crap the parent did and not the kid's fault, what would you do?

[MaroonLiquid]

Question for you as a coach. If another kid (not yours) was missing practice, and it was weird crap the parent did and not the kid's fault, what would you do?

I will think about this one.

So this weekend, we had a softball tournament and the whole weekend was weird.  My wife doing everything she could to ignore me except when she wanted to.  I noticed my wife and our oldest daughter came back from getting food, I asked our daughter where the place was located and she looked to my wife for info.  My wife gave me the evilest look and my daughter gave me this weird look and smiled as if to say, "What the heck?"  Other people saw and kind of turned away.  My wife began talking to me at times and we would joke around at times.  Still awkward and didn't go out of my way to communicate.  This morning we had to show back up for the tournament and we really didn't say anything to each other and she passed me like I didn't exist.  I helped to warm up the girls and several people within where she was standing wished me a happy Father's Day.  She didn't and neither did her kids.  In the stands after that, she said to our oldest daughter, "It's Fathers Day and since you don't have a father around, it's my day."  It was bait and I completely ignored it.  I didn't let it bother me nor did I try to make it awkward for them.  A few minutes later, our youngest daughter asked her for money to go to the concession stand to get a Gatorade and I said, "Here, I have an extra one."  She said, "Thanks."  A few minutes later, she mentioned she was going to pick some food up and I asked her if I gave her money would she grab me something.  She looked at me in front (loud enough for everyone to hear) of everyone and said, "I'm not going to do that."  When leaving this afternoon, she made a veiled attempt at trying to communicate with me and I should have seen it coming a mile away.  I was tired and wasn't dialed in to her crap.  She asked me for a batting average for one of the girls ( ) and I gave it to her.  We were talking about some specifics regarding the game today until her kids got in the car.  My son said to her, "I was going to see if y'all could come swimming with us."  She said, "You were seeing huh?"  Whatever the hell that means but my son responded yeah.  She said, "Let me talk to your dad for a moment, okay?" and he said, "OK" and got in the car.  She then said, "My attorney is "giving us" an hour of his time to hammer out the divorce, so you need to call him and set an appointment in the next two weeks or we will set a mediation."  I said, I will see what I have going on."  She said, "There is nothing you have going on more important than getting this done."  I said, "As I said, I will check my schedule."  She said, "This is the most cost effective way as if you keep stalling, we'll set mediation and then be ready for trial."  I said, "OK" nonchalantly and walked off.  On the way home, my kids fell asleep and I began to get emotional.  I sat with my feelings and honestly, I don't know how to handle this.  When I got home, she sent me an email with a CC to her attorney going over what we talked about.  I guess she is really pissed that I am holding my ground on this tax situation.  Frankly, I'm just about done.  :)on't know how much more I can take.  She is trying to really get at me and is frustrated that she can't I guess.

[Fian]

My heart goes out to you on this right now.  I have never personally gone through divorce, but I am sure that it is (strongest adjective possible).

I believe you were thinking that the divorce was just a tactic.  It now appears that she actually wants a divorce.  On the other hand, this is happening when she is painting you as black as she can.

Looking at the words, it appears that she is trying to make you think the divorce is inevitable so an amicable divorce would be in your best interest.  As I said above, I don't know much about divorce, however if you fought it tooth and nail, it doesn't sound like she has the financial assets to go to trial.  Just keep in mind that if you go this route, expect her to be as nasty as she can possibly be to try and get you to agree to a divorce.

[sweetheart]

Hi ML,   

It does appear because she cannot get you to 'bail her out' financially that divorce for her will be inevitable.

I don't know much about divorce or mediation, but like fian said I would opt for as low conflict as possible.

The push from your wife is becoming more frequent and consolidated, so maybe think about protecting yourself emotionally and practically from what a divorce will mean for you.

I understand this is not what you want, but it does seem as though this is the course your wife is going to take.

What can you do to make this process easier for you ? Can your wife go ahead and divorce you without involvement from you ? Sorry if this is a dumb question   

[MaroonLiquid]

I forgot to mention our daughter found out this weekend from my daughters that her mom knew about our softball practice last week and she was never told.  Wonder how that went down.

On the other hand, this is happening when she is painting you as black as she can.

This.  She only brings it up (and it escalates each time) when i don't give in and give her her way (usually money) and the fact that she was trying to ruin Father's Day for me because she is ruining a chance for her kids to have a father.  That crossed a threshold for me finally... .

Looking at the words, it appears that she is trying to make you think the divorce is inevitable so an amicable divorce would be in your best interest.

This also.  I still believe it's a tactic (called her bluff already and she backed down) that she escalates each time she dysregulates because I don't meet her "demands", which I'm finally done with.  

Hi ML,   

It does appear because she cannot get you to 'bail her out' financially that divorce for her will be inevitable.

I don't know much about divorce or mediation, but like fian said I would opt for as low conflict as possible.

The push from your wife is becoming more frequent and consolidated, so maybe think about protecting yourself emotionally and practically from what a divorce will mean for you.

I understand this is not what you want, but it does seem as though this is the course your wife is going to take.

What can you do to make this process easier for you ? Can your wife go ahead and divorce you without involvement from you ? Sorry if this is a dumb question   

After the weekend and the crap she pulled, I reached my limit.  I can't live in this poopy diaper anymore.   I have decided to reply to her and her attorney with a list of the items that I want in order to dissolve the marriage.  I will also say that if that everything is agreed to and the decree is satisfatory, I will sign it.  She will not see this coming.  I think she thinks I will stall and stall.  Understand, I'm not doing this for her to backdown, I'm doing this for me.  I'm prepared for the marriage to end.  I'm heartbroken to say that, but I can't play with her sickness any longer.  It's time.  It's somewhat scary to be here, but freeing at the same time.  The only way for me out of this ending in divorce is for her to seek help.   That's her choice... .

[GaGrl]

At some point, depending upon how far your wife pushes the divorce, the financial situation must be handled.  That's when you need your own lawyer and your own protection.  The way in which you've divided obligations and specified responsibility so far is good.  She may think that you will cave when it comes to a settlement agreement.  That should not happen.

Isn't your marriage relatively short-term?  Five years?  No need to take on more than what your state guidelines might be for a marriage of that length, especially for such clear-cut items as 401K loans and 50% of joint tax obligations.

You'll need to check in on the Legal board.

[Grey Kitty]

After the weekend and the crap she pulled, I reached my limit.  I can't live in this poopy diaper anymore.   I have decided to reply to her and her attorney with a list of the items that I want in order to dissolve the marriage.  I will also say that if that everything is agreed to and the decree is satisfatory, I will sign it.  She will not see this coming.  I think she thinks I will stall and stall.  Understand, I'm not doing this for her to backdown, I'm doing this for me.  I'm prepared for the marriage to end.  I'm heartbroken to say that, but I can't play with her sickness any longer.  It's time.  It's somewhat scary to be here, but freeing at the same time.  The only way for me out of this ending in divorce is for her to seek help.   That's her choice... .

If you haven't done it yet, I've got a couple suggestions here.

Suggestion zero: Post your strategy on the legal/custody board and run it by your lawyer first. Your wife is using this whole divorce thing to yank you around / create conflict / be part of the fight. You need GOOD advice before you jump into this shark's pool.

Suggestion one: Have all communications about the divorce with her through her lawyer.

She's using this as a game and leverage. If she's doing it through her lawyer, she's forced to be a bit more serious rather than just use it as a bigger card to play to manipulate you.

Suggestion two: Decide what divorce means to you. Will you treat her differently? Will you treat her kids differently? Will you consider yourself single, and (perhaps, eventually) start dating again? Or does it just mean you never have to discuss anything financial again with her.

And lastly... .stop thinking about and talking about her seeking help. As you are stepping farther away from her, your input/influence/interest in her mental health should be less, not more.

Hang in there. It is gonna be a tough ride!

[sweetheart]

ML you answered my thoughts about how much more you could put up with. I found myself thinking about your situation recently and how hard you have worked on all levels to change yourself to the person you have become today.

I am sorry that it has come to this because I know that this is not what you wanted. That said I believe that the approach you are taking is a positive step for you to assert your needs and to continue to look after yourself.

Make sure you post on Legal.

[MaroonLiquid]

Suggestion zero: Post your strategy on the legal/custody board and run it by your lawyer first. Your wife is using this whole divorce thing to yank you around / create conflict / be part of the fight. You need GOOD advice before you jump into this shark's pool.

OK... .I will do that... .

Suggestion one: Have all communications about the divorce with her through her lawyer.

She's using this as a game and leverage. If she's doing it through her lawyer, she's forced to be a bit more serious rather than just use it as a bigger card to play to manipulate you.

That's a good idea.  I agree she is using this as a game and for leverage.  It's an extinction burst and pushing the divorce has worked for her at times.  I don't want to go this route, but where does the game end with her?  That's what I'm having a huge problem with.  So far, I get tougher and she sees that and finds a new way to dig her heels in and try and get me to cave.  I can't believe she keeps acting like a fool and seems as if she doesn't want things to change.  I wish our marriage could work, but that takes two, and for the past year, there's only been one of us.

Suggestion two: Decide what divorce means to you. Will you treat her differently? Will you treat her kids differently? Will you consider yourself single, and (perhaps, eventually) start dating again? Or does it just mean you never have to discuss anything financial again with her.

Divorce means I am no longer married to her.  Does that mean I don't want to be involved romantically with her?  No, but I don't know how I do if she isn't in T.  Is my heart still involved emotionally with her?  Of course it is.  Will I start dating again eventually?  At some point.  I'm wired to share my life with someone.  I thought that someone was her.  It may still be, but I can't bet on that nor put my life on hold.  As far as the kids, I don't even know where to begin with that one.  It breaks my heart for them.  I would love to be involved with their life, but... .Our daughter playing for my softball team is now a big question mark.  My wife didn't bring her to practice last week twice because she was mad.  That isn't fiar to my daughter nor to my team.  I have to think of my team first.  My ex-wife made the comment when we were talking that when my wife would see me having fun talking to her or other people over the weekend, then she would try and get close to me and start talking.  If I was just trying to talk to her, she would ignore me or try and embarrass me.  She said, "It's almost like she doesn't want you but doesn't want anyone else to have you, or maybe she just wants you to be miserable too because she is miserable and destroying her life."  I've has so many people tell me recently that I won't see what my wife really feels about me until I am no longer in the picture on any level and therefore not her whipping post.  Of course I know what I have read regarding pwBPD, so I feel very torn there.  I wonder what the kids think about me now that I have been out of the house for almost a year and not there day to day with their mom.  I wonder if they think differently about me or be even more mad at me because I'm not there.  I know I can't worry about that, but I do.  I hate to see them hurt.  I know they see her dysregulate and have to have serious questions.

And lastly... .stop thinking about and talking about her seeking help. As you are stepping farther away from her, your input/influence/interest in her mental health should be less, not more.

Hang in there. It is gonna be a tough ride!

I just meant that when I do send this to her attorney and if she tries to back off of it, I have to have some boundaries regarding having a relationship with her.  I was trying to think one step ahead, know what I mean?  I know people question my sanity, but I am still very much in love with her.  I'm just very detached from her daily drama and therefore her health mentally and emotionally is still very important to me. 

ML you answered my thoughts about how much more you could put up with. I found myself thinking about your situation recently and how hard you have worked on all levels to change yourself to the person you have become today.

I am sorry that it has come to this because I know that this is not what you wanted. That said I believe that the approach you are taking is a positive step for you to assert your needs and to continue to look after yourself.

Make sure you post on Legal.

Thanks.  I'm dealing with a lot of emotion today.  I'm just drained.  Yesterday was a gut-punch on fathers day and taking a couple of days of reflection to let some stuff sink in and also to see where I go from here if anywhere.  I don't want to make an emotional decision, but I want to be smart. 

[EaglesJuju]

This thread has reached its post limit, and is now closed. This is a worthwhile topic, and you are free to start a new thread to continue the conversation. Thanks for your understanding... .