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Author Topic: Deliberate manipulation and PAS  (Read 420 times)
bravhart1
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« on: June 08, 2015, 11:11:36 AM »

In a weird place emotionally right now. Watching SD6 be twisted into a pretzel emotionally herself I begin to feel like it is selfish of us to keep trying to have a relationship with her.

Moms been doing some outrageous things to manipulate and use PAS tactics on SD6 and I see her crumbling under the pressure. She vented last night about all her anger towards me and her father and it was so sad and scary how she was repeating her mothers words and tone verbatim.

She is also repeating stories of "false memories" that have been told to her. One most recent is particularly concerning as she was present and knows that the conversation did not happen. But after it has been told to her she now "remembers" it just the way her mom told it to her. It was only last week and she is already heatedly adamant that she heard it.

I'm just so conflicted, I want her pain to stop. The courts move so slow. We are still trying to get special master on board. No intake done yet, guess that is our next step. More money, more stress, and SD6 growing up in the middle of it with no relief in sight.

It's never been made more clear to me that SD6's mom is truly mentally ill, I can't imagine what kind of monster would do this to their child unless they were mentally ill.

Therapist wants us to file for exparte relief and ask for supervised visits. L thinks it's a 50/50 shot,but since we just went to court last April, the special master should get a chance to "fix it"  

DH is stressed about the next $50,000 this will cost, we are out of savings. I get it, I do. My entire salary last year went to lawyers and courts, and therapists, all for BPDm's issues. Pretty disgusting, and exhausting.

I just want this very confused little girl to get some peace. From where I stand, this looks like more than child abuse, it looks like torture.

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« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2015, 06:31:42 AM »

All of that sounds incredibly hard. I'm sorry your family is going through this. One of the things my T has reminded me of time and time again is that kids are resilient. SD6 will make it through this. The experience will probably change her, but eventually developing important critical thinking skills will help her put everything from her past into perspective.

For what it's worth, we always followed the advice of our third party professionals and it's worked out very well. There is nothing wrong with going to court saying "The child's T said to get this dealt with immediately, so here we are".
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bravhart1
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« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2015, 12:58:38 PM »

^ thanks for your kind words. It's so hard, I don't know sometimes how we will navigate it.

I know that going back to court is the right thing (at least we are trying) but if DH isn't sold on it, then I guess I'm left to just wish it were different. I can't control it, so I have to accept it.

Hard for me, if this was my bio child I wouldn't be slow to act. I get the money thing is huge for our family's financial future. But how messed is it that she is allowed to continue this behavior because she worn us down?

Being the step parent is a rough road to navigate, I have all the stress and problems and none of the control.
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Eco
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« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2015, 06:10:40 PM »

So sorry you and SD6 are going through this

Forgive me but could you tell me what kind of time you get with SD? I barely have time to post on here and cant really look at older posts. I'm really interested about PAS because im going through it with my 2 yr old daughter.
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bravhart1
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« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2015, 10:12:43 PM »

We have had about 85% custody until last march when mom got more time. Not a lot maybe another 10%?

But it came with strong admonishments to stop all PAS and court ordered therapy.

It would appear that BPDm thinks that because she got more time back she has become empowered to ramp up PAS. The latest stuff is disgusting. Blatant manipulation in the form of lies and stories to make SD6 feel she is missing out on some big emotional items. For example a call from SD6 to mom last weekend BPDm told her the whole family was having a BIG party to celebrate SD6's kindergarten graduation. "Too bad you can't be here to see all your family and get your presents, but daddy said NO." The whole party was a lie. Presents are not going to be there, because a) there was no party, and b) she will say they took them back because daddy didn't let her come to the party. Just stupid stuff kids don't understand. But she was very angry with dad.

Hard to deal with without telling SD6 that it's all a big fat lie. When SD6 says she "remembers" the conversation when mom asked if she could be at party it's scary. It NEVER happened. Now what?
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« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2015, 10:30:18 PM »

Was it like, "remember last week when I asked if you could come to the party?" Thereby cementing it in D6's mind that it happened. For D6, how can you validate that?

"I don't like it either when people have parties and invite me when they know I won't be there."

This is walking a fine line. I agree that her mom's FOG is disgusting... .
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bravhart1
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« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2015, 11:59:41 PM »

We tried to validate, "you are sad about missing the party. It's disappointing. I wonder why mom would have the party on a day she knew you couldn't be there?"

SD6 responded that it had been planned for months.   

We responded " oh really, I never heard you mention it before today... ."

SD6 responded its because her mom kept it a secret until today.

So we said, " hmmm... .well then how did you know about it last week and not talk about it?"

SD6 says, I just found out today.

Our obvious reply was then how do you remember mom asking dad then about if you could come?

And she became angry and said its because we keep her from her mom.

And we are crumbs.

It's so hard to see her defend her mom when she knows deep down it's not making sense. But she seems to be almost intent on believing the most unbelievable and impossible when it comes to her mom and only the worst of the normal, loving, stable people she knows take care of her. Us. It's down right scary.
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Eco
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« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2015, 12:21:11 AM »

Excerpt
It would appear that BPDm thinks that because she got more time back she has become empowered to ramp up PAS. The latest stuff is disgusting. Blatant manipulation in the form of lies and stories to make SD6 feel she is missing out on some big emotional items. For example a call from SD6 to mom last weekend BPDm told her the whole family was having a BIG party to celebrate SD6's kindergarten graduation. "Too bad you can't be here to see all your family and get your presents, but daddy said NO." The whole party was a lie. Presents are not going to be there, because a) there was no party, and b) she will say they took them back because daddy didn't let her come to the party. Just stupid stuff kids don't understand. But she was very angry with dad.

 very true they get a centimeter and try and take 20 miles. That's horrible that BPD mom is telling sd6 that, very disgusting.

Excerpt
Hard to deal with without telling SD6 that it's all a big fat lie. When SD6 says she "remembers" the conversation when mom asked if she could be at party it's scary. It NEVER happened. Now what?

Very difficult indeed, Im very curious how you handle this and how it goes for you guys. Unfortunately for my daughter who is 2 I see this type of thing in her future. when I first got visitation with my daughter who was 6 months old then my ex had her then 3 yr old ask me why I was taking her sister away from them. I explained it like this " Sweetie im not taking your sister away from you im only picking her up like your daddy gets you" My ex then barked out "yes he is taking her from us!" My ex has 3 kids with 3 different dads.

Now that im going back to court to try and get more time im sure more of the same dialog from my ex to my daughter will happen.

I hope things get better for your sd  
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bravhart1
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« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2015, 01:49:17 AM »

If it makes you feel better ECO when this whole thing started SD was then two as well.

Mom had 90% custody. To this day we have never filed a motion or requested more time. Mom wasn't happy with 90%

She took us to court to ask for 100% and the mediator was instantly alarmed at moms vehemently hostile stance against dad having his daughter for more than a dinner out a couple times a year, (when SHE thought it was appropriate and for sure without that nasty bravhart along) yes, she said that to the mediator.

We got 30%, then on her next attempt for 100% (with false accusations up the wazoo from her) she lost another 20%, then on her third attempt for 100% she was down to 10% and still not getting it.

Fourth attempt judge said we gotta have a CE and that's what got her some time back. CE felt she would stop her PAS if she just got a little more time back, wrong.

But the good news for you is that I see the courts being much more proactive when dealing with this stuff. One thing we were VERY careful not to do was use the term PAS. We described in detail what we were seeing and experiencing and let them come to the conclusion that she was high conflict, BPD and causing PAS in her child.

Document every bad act by BPD and the things your child says or does, which I kick myself for not doing all the time  and even send yourself emails describing your experiences with situations. It is sometimes easier to write yourself an email and then you also have a true time stamp on the days for court if needed.

I hate that they do this, but it doesn't stop. Your daughter is so young, don't give up. You have a better shot than most of us that you caught it so early. We didn't even hear the term borderline from the T until about a year ago.
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Eco
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« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2015, 07:54:47 PM »

Excerpt
Mom had 90% custody. To this day we have never filed a motion or requested more time. Mom wasn't happy with 90% rolleyes

wow, it amazes me how greedy they can be.

Excerpt
She took us to court to ask for 100% and the mediator was instantly alarmed at moms vehemently hostile stance against dad having his daughter for more than a dinner out a couple times a year, (when SHE thought it was appropriate and for sure without that nasty bravhart along) yes, she said that to the mediator.

Your husband must have been going crazy, Before I took my ex to court she was allowing me to see my daughter here and there at her house and if I sneezed the wrong way she would throw me out. The  longest I went without seeing my daughter was 3 weeks and it nearly killed me, I was a walking zombie. My ex drew up this totally lopsided visitation schedule with all these crazy stipulations which gave me 2 hrs a week with my daughter split in 2 days. I refused to sign it and she said I was no longer allowed to see my daughter until I signed it, I filed the next day and when she got served is when she let me see my daughter again in hopes I would withdraw my summons.

I didn't withdraw and over a year later she is still furious that I took her to court. I can only imagine how she is going to react when I go for primary custody.

Excerpt
Fourth attempt judge said we gotta have a CE and that's what got her some time back. CE felt she would stop her PAS if she just got a little more time back, wrong.



That's sad, the courts just don't seem to get it. I really feel it should be mandatory that family courts or any court for that matter should be educated and trained on how to identify and deal with PDs. They deal with it enough and it would save a lot of time and money I think.

Excerpt
But the good news for you is that I see the courts being much more proactive when dealing with this stuff. One thing we were VERY careful not to do was use the term PAS. We described in detail what we were seeing and experiencing and let them come to the conclusion that she was high conflict, BPD and causing PAS in her child.

I plan to do just that, I only hope I get someone insightful enough to see things clearly on both sides.

Excerpt
Document every bad act by BPD and the things your child says or does, which I kick myself for not doing all the time tongue and even send yourself emails describing your experiences with situations. It is sometimes easier to write yourself an email and then you also have a true time stamp on the days for court if needed.

I have kept a daily journal( im actually on my 2nd notebook ) from the day of court, Its tiresome and like a part time job but so worth it. Im amazed when I look back at the journals and see how many issues from my ex have taken place its at about 90% conflict vs 10% peaceful. I have text, email and video to back my journal up as well.

Excerpt
I hate that they do this, but it doesn't stop. Your daughter is so young, don't give up. You have a better shot than most of us that you caught it so early. We didn't even hear the term borderline from the T until about a year ago

Thank you for the encouragement and support.

Excerpt
Therapist wants us to file for exparte relief and ask for supervised visits. L thinks it's a 50/50 shot,but since we just went to court last April, the special master should get a chance to "fix it"  rolleyes

DH is stressed about the next $50,000 this will cost, we are out of savings. I get it, I do. My entire salary last year went to lawyers and courts, and therapists, all for BPDm's issues. Pretty disgusting, and exhausting.

I just want this very confused little girl to get some peace. From where I stand, this looks like more than child abuse, it looks like torture.

Its so horrible the toll this takes, the lives it destroys in so many ways. I really wish more things were in place to protect the kids and families from this, If we can see this disorder so should the courts. I don't know what the answer or fix is but I definitely have some ideas.

I really hope it gets better for your sd6 and you and your family, no child or family should have to go through this.

Excerpt
And she became angry and said its because we keep her from her mom.

And we are crumbs.

It's so hard to see her defend her mom when she knows deep down it's not making sense. But she seems to be almost intent on believing the most unbelievable and impossible when it comes to her mom and only the worst of the normal, loving, stable people she knows take care of her. Us. It's down right scary.

I know first hand about how you feel on this, my son who is 11 and from a deferent R/S then my daughter. I have had custody of him since the divorce in 2007 because his mom didn't want the responsibility of a family or kids, his mom rarely sees him maybe 5 times a year (her choice). It really does a job on my son not seeing his mom, he has abandonment issues and anger problems over it, I have him in counseling. The thing that really bothered me was for the past 8 yrs I have been the one taking care of him, going to events, school functions, comforting him when hes upset and trying to be mom and dad for him. After all this he still seems more loyal to his mom, making excuses for her when she doesn't show up to see him ,going months without even a phone call and if she says jump he says how high. The thing im trying to work with my son is to see reality and not to change facts around or warp reality to make things perfect in his mind to where his mom isn't doing anything wrong to him. Validation has helped a lot and I quit trying to make him see the truth and instead presented it to him, after a while and after I let him know its normal and ok to feel how he feels he starts to see the truth.

Its hard and not all kids handle things the same, I hope your SD6 sees the truth one day about her BPD mom and I think she will because she obviously has 2 other parents that care for her very much 

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bravhart1
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« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2015, 09:52:37 PM »

Thanks Eco,

I hope things work out for you too!

SD6 is now blaming all her bad behavior on "missing mom'" as though this gives her a pass.

I just made it clear that she was not to miss us too much while with mom this weekend.  and hope that she gets it.
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