Any experience with ex spouse's stalkerish behavior?

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Judgment of divorce only two days away.  Ex wife is diagnosed. Marriage collapse April 2014.  Two small kids, and happily I am moved on to a really, really easy, rewarding, calm relationship with a great woman. 

Ex wife has moved out into an apartment and I've kept the house.  Seems there is always an excuse to stop by, seems to be "forgetting" things that she left in the house that she wants, is now inserting herself into my parenting time (50/50) with the kids.  Now swears she will show up at every one of their doctor appointments (apparently she's going to do this until death) to "support our kids!"

I really do not want to communicate with her any more than what is absolutely necessary and I do not want to see her at all.  I don't feel anything at all about her (I'm as ambivalent about her welfare as I am about the welfare of the guy who puts gas into my car in the morning) but I do not like being in her presence, mainly because conversation of any kind with her is a trap.  I've urged her to stay away, and she insists on being in my face as much as possible.  She jogs past my house.

Does anyone have any experience with this?  Is this "normal" -- as far as this behavior can be ever be normal? 

[goateeki]

Judgment of divorce only two days away.  Ex wife is diagnosed. Marriage collapse April 2014.  Two small kids, and happily I am moved on to a really, really easy, rewarding, calm relationship with a great woman. 

Ex wife has moved out into an apartment and I've kept the house.  Seems there is always an excuse to stop by, seems to be "forgetting" things that she left in the house that she wants, is now inserting herself into my parenting time (50/50) with the kids.  Now swears she will show up at every one of their doctor appointments (apparently she's going to do this until death) to "support our kids!"

I really do not want to communicate with her any more than what is absolutely necessary and I do not want to see her at all.  I don't feel anything at all about her (I'm as ambivalent about her welfare as I am about the welfare of the guy who puts gas into my car in the morning) but I do not like being in her presence, mainly because conversation of any kind with her is a trap.  I've urged her to stay away, and she insists on being in my face as much as possible.  She jogs past my house.

Does anyone have any experience with this?  Is this "normal" -- as far as this behavior can be ever be normal? 

[bravhart1]

While you can't stop her from jogging by your house, you can control if you open the door if she stops by. Don't reward the stop by with interaction. Refuse to be put on the spot and spell out clear boundaries. If she stands on your porch pitching a fit, call the police. That will document her interference with your parenting time and they will tell her that she has NO right to stop by and expect you to deal with her on her whim. If she continues, you have a good course of action to seek a restraining order to prevent her from demanding your attention.

If she texts or emails her intention to stop by ahead of time for something, leave and don't be home (house locked up tight) and don't respond. She will get tired of having her attempts thwarted eventually.

Also, I would make it clear that after she moved out, the "stuff" is now settled, your home isn't a walmart, and this isn't an ongoing trickle of the gimmes.

[goateeki]

While you can't stop her from jogging by your house, you can control if you open the door if she stops by. Don't reward the stop by with interaction. Refuse to be put on the spot and spell out clear boundaries. If she stands on your porch pitching a fit, call the police. That will document her interference with your parenting time and they will tell her that she has NO right to stop by and expect you to deal with her on her whim. If she continues, you have a good course of action to seek a restraining order to prevent her from demanding your attention.

If she texts or emails her intention to stop by ahead of time for something, leave and don't be home (house locked up tight) and don't respond. She will get tired of having her attempts thwarted eventually.

Also, I would make it clear that after she moved out, the "stuff" is now settled, your home isn't a walmart, and this isn't an ongoing trickle of the gimmes.

Thanks, bravhart.  It hasn't escalated to the point where she's pounding on the door, but that's only because I haven't yet changed the lock or the combination on the alarm. I'm pretty sure that she has entered the house a few times when no one is there. 

[bravhart1]

Do you feel that it might be time to change the locks?

Given her behavior, I think if I were your new girl, I would want to see you moving in that direction.

[goateeki]

Do you feel that it might be time to change the locks?

Given her behavior, I think if I were your new girl, I would want to see you moving in that direction.

It's one of the first things I'm doing when the judgment of divorce is entered this week.  I'm not sure how much good it will do -- she has the kids 50% of the time and my daughter has a key and knows the combination to the alarm system.  I'll provide her with the new information and a new key, and ask her to not disclose the new combination to anyone.  I hope that she'll cooperate and that asking her this will not put too much pressure on her or cause her to feel torn between the two of us. But some amount of that seems unavoidable, right?

[bravhart1]

How old is your daughter? Does she need a key, etc?

How close does your ex live to you that she would be able to "jog by" without looking like she has gone out of her way to be in your neighborhood?

Yes, kids do have to deal with a certain amount of instruction in divorce, ie " what we do in our house is our business, our codes, passwords, etc are not to be shared" but when dealing with BPDm's I have found that their intrusiveness means that the kids have to understand that their BPD parent needs the "next level" of security from personal info.

We have had to address the interrogation that SD6 goes through upon return to her BPDm in the courts. It's gotten beyond curiosity and borders on stalkerish. BPDm wanted SD6 to fund put what kind of perfume I wear, my bra size and type of underwear I prefer.

[goateeki]

Not clear on "BPDm."  Lots of acronyms (!). But when I have the kids she usually calls three times a day and asks what they had for breakfast and lunch, when they showered, what time they went to bed.  It's a real bother and to me, the kids look like they feel they're being put on the spot. 

There's no way she could legitimately run past the house.  When she lived there, she never used the house as a starting point for a run -- the streets around the house were not ever places she wished to run.  In fact, she would drive to a park miles away to run before, and now she apparently runs miles out of her way to come past the house.

You speak of intrusiveness... .Right now I'm contending with her scheduling playdates for the kids on my days without ever consulting me, etc.  Don't know if I mentioned that. If there is some special school event that requires middle-of-the-workday action, like driving one of the kids somewhere, she will again make arrangements (or attempt to) that utilize her family members, who don't really have much to do -- again on my days with the kids.  After I put down her plans, I ask her to consult with her lawyer to find out if what she is doing is appropriate for my days.  I do this because I don't want her to accuse me of attempting to restrict access to the children, while obviously at the same time doing what I can to greatly limit my own contact with her. 

Also, the declaration that she intends to attend every one of our kids' therapy sessions follows our son (age 8) having a bit of a meltdown in the driveway of the house when she came by last Sunday to pick up the kids.  He started to cry, grabbed my leg, and when I picked him up he said he was going to miss me, didn't want to leave me, and that he planned to call or FaceTime me every day (there's just a two day gap between her picking them up and me seeing them again.) In truth I don't think she cares at all about how the kids fare in counseling.  What spurs this desire to attend the kids' therapy sessions is her belief that she is going to be sidelined eventually, and for her, that's a kind of death.  It is in her personality to demand that the children love her and spend time with her, even when her behavior most of the time is something just emanates waves of tension and sadness.  I can see why the kids might feel a need to be around her, but not actually enjoy being around her. It seems plausible to me. 

My own T suggested that it's conceivable that by high school, our daughter (11) might wish to move in with me full time.  I'll help her do that (if it happens), but obviously, what an earthquake for the ex wife, right?  Holy cow.   

[bravhart1]

We actually dealt with the same issue, of BPDm(BPDmom) not only trying to schedule stuff on our time, but only going to the school on our time not hers, like stoping by for lunch, volunteering in the classroom. Our lawyer sent a letter to hers as the order reads (standard language) "no interference on the other parents custodial time". This was definitely interference. The custodial schedules are designed to give parents uninterrupted ( by the other parent) time so that you can bond with your child.

I would try to work towards getting those calls out of the  order or if not in the order then don't do them, which means you don't call their house during her time either.

Asking personal business questions of the children, like what they ate, bedtimes, etc seems very intrusive, I would address that with the L.

Think of it as getting time for your kids to get a break from moms illness. They need to learn to have their own sense of self, which BPD people try to squash.

[bravhart1]

On the therapy visits, I would address it with the therapist and see if she can manage it on her end. Our therapist for kiddo says she wants each parent to bring kiddo to certain amount of sessions.

Her reason is that kids won't always open up about their true feelings about a parents behavior while that parent is sitting in the next room. We alternate the appointments.

Her wanting to be at each visit should be a red flag to therapist that mom is worried about what is being said. If she isn't doing anything wrong, why is she worried?

Is she trying to be in the session? Or just waiting outside the door?

There is a lot of coaching done by BPDm before her taking kiddo to sessions, therapist is very aware of this very destructive behavior by mom. She is in essence taking over and controlling what gets said in the session. Not exactly the spirit of therapy

[goateeki]

On the therapy visits, I would address it with the therapist and see if she can manage it on her end. Our therapist for kiddo says she wants each parent to bring kiddo to certain amount of sessions.

Her reason is that kids won't always open up about their true feelings about a parents behavior while that parent is sitting in the next room. We alternate the appointments.

Her wanting to be at each visit should be a red flag to therapist that mom is worried about what is being said. If she isn't doing anything wrong, why is she worried?

Is she trying to be in the session? Or just waiting outside the door?

There is a lot of coaching done by BPDm before her taking kiddo to sessions, therapist is very aware of this very destructive behavior by mom. She is in essence taking over and controlling what gets said in the session. Not exactly the spirit of therapy

You have huge experience with this.  This is really helpful.

[Waddams]

My uPDxw was extremely intrusive when we first split.  Everything you mentioned you're dealing with, she did, and then some.

I ended up just putting boundaries in place.  If she scheduled something for them on my time, I didn't take them.  I made my own plans.  When S10 would say "mommy said I'm doing this" I'd just tell him I'd made other plans for our time together.  Not much you can do about her showing up to all the doc visits, but that's okay.  What sucks is her scheduling visits and then not informing you.  S10 has always been on my insurance so when she did (and still does) that, I get the insurance mailings after and can go to the doc and find out what happened.  

uPDxw definitely went berserk when I cut her out of my parenting time.  She'd blow up my phone, I'd get calls from my mother who she'd complain to, she'd spent on money on this and that and I was wasting it, S10 was missing out, etc.  uPDxw really tried to unleash the flying monkeys at me.  I had to tell them all to but out, it's my time, and I manage it, not her.  I should have been stronger about it sooner.  It stressed S10 out too (he was only 4 or 5 at the time).  I also got the house and pretty much changed the locks as soon as she moved out, which was about 13 months prior to the divorce being final.  :)idn't care that she might have left something there.  It wasn't her home anymore regardless of legal status.  Anything she left after she moved out was mine.  Period.  She didn't like that either.  I simply told her tough sh*t and to address it via her L if she didn't like it.  In the end, her L never actually brought any of it up in the case.

As for attending T visits, that's something that the T really needs to nip in the bud.  She can sit outside, but she should not be in the room for the majority of time in session.  I used to wait for my son's T in the lobby, then every 2 or 3 sessions have a 5 or 10 minute chat with the T about progress/issues/etc.  And I also did a few 1 on 1's myself with the T that were themed around in depth discussion and advice on helping S10 through the drama.

What really made it get better was time.  uPDxw eventually found other stuff to focus on and now, 5 years later, we've still got 50/50 in the paperwork but I've really got S10 70% of overnights.  She wants to do other things and the kid restricts her.  

Best advice I can give is hold boundaries, with her AND your kids.  Remember, it's YOUR house now.  You are fully justified in the telling the kids mommy can't come in without your permission and presence.  Period.  Your parenting time is yours to manage.  Period.  If it means she ends up wasting time/money on things the kids miss out on, that's her problem.  If it means you have to tell the kids "no" they can't go do that, then so be it.  You are establishing who is in charge on your time.  Your ex-, the kids, extended family,they will get upset.  However, that's their problem and you don't have to fix it for them.  

[goateeki]

I should have been stronger about it sooner.    

I'm glad you said this.  I take it seriously.

My T said to me, after I reported all of these things (he asks what has transpired) that I "must be very, very practical" about dealing with this.  I think he actually meant practical, in the true and strict sense of the word.  No emotion, do the things that are necessary in the world to set boundaries.  Like changing the locks.  I'm doing it this weekend.

[scraps66]

Change the locks, immediately.  That was the first thing I did even before moving back in.  in fact I did that before ex was fully moved out.  I also wouldn't wait for the judgment.  BPs do weird things at the precipice of closure.  Extinction bursts and huge episodes of dysregulation.

My ex has made herself an excuse for constantly being in my neighborhoods as she has been shacking up with one of my neighbor's best friends.  So she's at the neighborhood parties, drives down my street to go to work, drops stuff off for the kids on my time.

I try as best I can to reduce her opportunity to be here.  I pick things up rather than have them dropped off.  On one occasion she dropped something off and didn't know I was home.  She made the drop off, then checked my mailbox.  She used to open my mail and stole money out of my bank account.

[whirlpoollife]

Agreed with others here, from experience... .change the locks. I did the next day after xh wasn't living with me anymore.  He did not know I changed the locks. He kept telling me Nd the GAL, and L's that he gives his children a key to his place so they can come and go as they wish... .so I should do the same.  At court, he tried to have it a court order that I give a key to my house to the kids.  Now my kids are teens, they still not have a key to my house.

Kids would always seem to forget something at his place, or want something from my place, xh would have kids tell me , not ask, that xh and they , or xh would drive to a few houses up from my place to get it.  I said no , that I would drive and get it or drop it off. ( because if he was hanging out on my block , then the neighbors would think that is ok. ( he liked stalking other people too, with binoculars)

After many times of sayinng no, that I will come and get or drop off items, they haven't forgotten items anymore.

same with S driving his dad's , my xh, car to my place. I said no. Lots of backlash from kids, ( positive it's not from kids themselves) from all this.  Three years from filing for divorce, and this continues. I sound parinoid , but only to and because of xh.  He stalked every move I made during marriage, he hasn't changed since.

Set boundries now. And keep yourself out of the fog.

[goateeki]

Agreed with others here, from experience... .change the locks. I did the next day after xh wasn't living with me anymore.  He did not know I changed the locks. He kept telling me Nd the GAL, and L's that he gives his children a key to his place so they can come and go as they wish... .so I should do the same.  At court, he tried to have it a court order that I give a key to my house to the kids.  Now my kids are teens, they still not have a key to my house.

Kids would always seem to forget something at his place, or want something from my place, xh would have kids tell me , not ask, that xh and they , or xh would drive to a few houses up from my place to get it.  I said no , that I would drive and get it or drop it off. ( because if he was hanging out on my block , then the neighbors would think that is ok. ( he liked stalking other people too, with binoculars)

After many times of sayinng no, that I will come and get or drop off items, they haven't forgotten items anymore.

same with S driving his dad's , my xh, car to my place. I said no. Lots of backlash from kids, ( positive it's not from kids themselves) from all this.  Three years from filing for divorce, and this continues. I sound parinoid , but only to and because of xh.  He stalked every move I made during marriage, he hasn't changed since.

Set boundries now. And keep yourself out of the fog.

Awesome advice guys and thanks.

This weekend changed the passcode to the alarm system and ordered a replacement lockset (it's a particular kind of lock and was tapped into the door in an odd way, I've found).  That's going in this coming weekend. 

Also after insane levels of texting from her, in which she has maintained that I'm obliged to advise her of the children's whereabouts and the names of the people with whom they'll be for everyday of the summer, I told her to have her lawyer send my lawyer a letter and I also told her to do her best to refrain from contacting me.   

[bravhart1]

Nicely done chief!

It's hard to stick to those boundaries especially when they basically trick you into breaking them most of the time, but I'll tell you like I tell my DH... .

If you move a boundary just think of it as that boundary and all the other boundaries don't exist anymore. In their minds BPDs consider it a personal challenge to get you to move your boundaries. They are like kids playing games, they really don't care what it is, only that you won't let them do something.

Once you "go back to texting" for example if you've said email only. And they can get you to text, then it's like all the hard work of training them to email only is down the drain. One slip and it's square one.

Stay strong, you can do this. It's been so long in her reign of terror that you may have forgotten what's it's like to be your own person. Once you get a taste of that freedom again she loses all her hold. 

[goateeki]

Nicely done chief!

It's hard to stick to those boundaries especially when they basically trick you into breaking them most of the time, but I'll tell you like I tell my DH... .

If you move a boundary just think of it as that boundary and all the other boundaries don't exist anymore. In their minds BPDs consider it a personal challenge to get you to move your boundaries. They are like kids playing games, they really don't care what it is, only that you won't let them do something.

Once you "go back to texting" for example if you've said email only. And they can get you to text, then it's like all the hard work of training them to email only is down the drain. One slip and it's square one.

Stay strong, you can do this. It's been so long in her reign of terror that you may have forgotten what's it's like to be your own person. Once you get a taste of that freedom again she loses all her hold. 

Also this past weekend at the kids' piano recital I used the opportunity to arrive and sit on the other side of the auditorium from her and her always present parents.  I'm sure it screwed up the kids to witness that but they have to understand that I am utterly separate from their mother.  I am thinking that in an unexpected way this gives the kids a greater sense of freedom when they are with me, like there is no risk of me narking them out for eating Doritos or staying up fifteen minutes past their usual bed time.  During the performance of one of the kids, could not help but notice that in my extreme left peripheral vision, a pair of eyes were glaring at me.  It was her, of course.  I'm guessing that she was signaling to me that I'd done something terrible in not complying with her family's seating wishes.  Compliance is possibly the highest value in her FOO.  It's like a protection racket.

Tonight also have an awards ceremony at the kids' school for our oldest.  Arriving alone and sitting as far away from her as possible, will not acknowledge her.  Again, I'm sure that this will distress our kid but I mean to be consistent, and kids value consistency. 

Also find it notable that the items she absolutely needed, that I placed and put just inside the garage for her to pick up, have sat there for more than a week, I suppose because I said she could open the garage door and get them alone -- I would not be there.  I don't really spend any time at the house anymore unless the kids are there.  Using every ounce of energy to carpe the diem, and it feels awesome!