Boundries around 'normal' conversation

[IsItHerOrIsItMe]

OK, I'm still trying to find the balance between 'normal' conversations between a husband and wife, and boundaries to try and keep a little self respect... .

So I guess when we were dating, I sat next to the same woman after our co-ed soccer games at the bar (our sponsor... .) a couple of times.  5 years later, after my making sure I didn't sit next to any woman a disproportionate number of times, it still comes up a few times a month.

So last night the questions start out somewhat mundane, ":)id you ever talk to X about your divorce, or anything personal?"... .But by the time she asks the 10th question about X I'm hot under the collar, which of course is her "evidence" that I have a thing for X... .

So if you take any one question in isolation, any wife should be able to ask her husband about it... .But the pattern, 10-20 questions in a night, 5-10 times a month for me is the issue.

My boundary, "I won't argue with you about what I think" worked for awhile... .but she's gotten better about using tiny increments, or sheer repetition to get the conversation back into the same ol' areas.

Validation isn't real effective, because she doesn't acknowledge any sort of jealousy... .If I try to validate stating "well, any wife would worry about her husband's attention" it's met with accusations that my attentions are on X and not her... .

So... .just venting & seeing if anyone has any suggestions.

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[formflier]

 

Ahhh... .this is/was precisely my life.

Very very suspicious of other women.  For a long time I did it 100% wrong... .it's a hard thing to turn around... .but it can be done.

Don't bolt from the conversation yet... .

Now is time to try some skills and change the dynamic.  You are looking for a way to find emotions of your wife's to validate... .to keep her emotions the subject... .

So... .

"Hi hubby... .did you ever talk to dangerous woman 1 about our divorce"

you "Hmmm... .help me understand your thoughts about this... "  (do not say "why you are thinking)  why is "harsh".

her "no reason... .so... did you talk to her... "

you "oh good... glad there is no reason to discuss this... .I'm going to get glass of water... would you like me to bring you one... ."  Walk out and get that... .come back... .and talk about anything other than this...   ANYTHING.

DO NOT REFUSE... .just don't do it.

her "so you are avoiding talking about her... "

you "Hmmm... .I'm confused... .help me understand how talking about something that there is no reason to talk about helps our r/s.  I would be happy to talk about your feelings right now... .or my feelings for you."

Her "You are in love with her and are hiding your r/s from me"

you attempt to set.  "I'm here to support you.  It is scary for you to think about me loving another woman.  The truth is... .I only love you... "

Now... .you need to stay calm... stay centered... .and if she starts getting upset... .like heading to dysregulation... .exit.  Don't blame her.  "I need to take a break... I'll be back in 10 minutes... "  Do not apologize for taking a break.

Do you see how this could work?  Take my example... .and mold it to you r/s... .the example is just a guide... .some may work... some may not.

Only "rule" is to stay calm... .and if you start getting upset... .leave.

FF

FF

[IsItHerOrIsItMe]

So... .

"Hi hubby... .did you ever talk to dangerous woman 1 about our divorce"

you "Hmmm... .help me understand your thoughts about this... "  (do not say "why you are thinking)  why is "harsh".

her "no reason... .so... did you talk to her... "

you "oh good... glad there is no reason to discuss this... .I'm going to get glass of water... would you like me to bring you one... ."  Walk out and get that... .come back... .and talk about anything other than this...   ANYTHING.

I'll give this a try... .I'm guessing by the time I come back into the room she will forget she said "no reason"... .

DO NOT REFUSE... .just don't do it.

her "so you are avoiding talking about her... "

you "Hmmm... .I'm confused... .help me understand how talking about something that there is no reason to talk about helps our r/s.  I would be happy to talk about your feelings right now... .or my feelings for you."

Her "You are in love with her and are hiding your r/s from me"

you attempt to set.  "I'm here to support you.  It is scary for you to think about me loving another woman.  The truth is... .I only love you... "

Now... .you need to stay calm... stay centered... .and if she starts getting upset... .like heading to dysregulation... .exit.  Don't blame her.  "I need to take a break... I'll be back in 10 minutes... "  Do not apologize for taking a break.

The taking a break is still tough for me... .her kids (my step-kids) still see this as me "running".  It's easier when we're along, but I think she senses that and goes into overdrive to get me to stay.

Thanks, I'll give it a try next time it comes up.

[formflier]

 

Please change your thinking... .

Instead of her kids seeing it as running... .let them see it as you have enough self respect to not engage in circular conversations.

Read the lessons on circular conversations and exiting them... .great lesson!

FF

[vortex of confusion]

Here is a link to the workshop Communication: How to stop circular arguments: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=118892.0

How do you know that her kids see it as running?

What are your reasons for being afraid of being seen as running? Is it just the kids or is there another layer to this?

[IsItHerOrIsItMe]

I tried to think what the other layers would be... .they lost their dad in 2007 and certainly form a tight circle with each other... .

[vortex of confusion]

I tried to think what the other layers would be... .they lost their dad in 2007 and certainly form a tight circle with each other... .

When you say they lost their dad, do you mean that he passed away or that he ran away?

Are there other layers withing YOU that make YOU afraid of being seen as running away? I know a lot of people, especially guys, are seen as less than if they run away from a fight. I grew up in a home where you just didn't run away from a fight. You stayed and you fought until somebody won. It took me a while to put all of that together. At one time, I thought that I had to stay and "talk" no matter how uncomfortable things were. It wasn't until I gave myself permission to walk away when things were uncomfortable. Not only that, I had to extend that same courtesy to my husband. There have been times when the two of us would discuss things way longer than we should have because neither of us had the foresight to say, "hey, this is getting heated and unproductive."

Is there any way that you can discuss this with your partner when things aren't heated? For me, I found it helpful to find a good time to approach my husband when things were good and try to say, "You know, when we fight, we both need to do a better job of shutting up and walking away." In the moment, there are still times when one of us pushes. However, things don't get as bad as they used to because I have tried to make it clear that we can both walk away when things get tense. It isn't running away, it is taking a break.

Here is a workshop on how to take a time out: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=84942.0

[jcarter4856]

Now is time to try some skills and change the dynamic.  You are looking for a way to find emotions of your wife's to validate... .to keep her emotions the subject... .

So... .

"Hi hubby... .did you ever talk to dangerous woman 1 about our divorce"

I have to say: that was some powerful BPD-whispering. A treat to read.

I like to use the excuse that I'm taking the trash out to exit the scene. Like the fetching a glass of water ploy though.

The key insight is to realize that there is no set of words that can leave your mouth at that point that will have any positive effect.

Ideally you walk away and before you return a squirrel appears in a tree...

[formflier]

The key insight is to realize that there is no set of words that can leave your mouth at that point that will have any positive effect.

Hey... .this may not be true.

Validation... .when you find the right "target emotion"... .usually does wonders.  There is some trial and error to this... .which is why when you are feeling good... .try to stick with a conversation for a bit... .keep asking and looking for emotions...

Validate them... .very different from agreeing with them... .

Next issue walking away... .

Many times... .this is best.  If you have reached the point where you are starting to feel triggered... that is danger zone.  Only stick with a conversation and try to validate when you are on top of your game... .

FF

[Notwendy]

One approach I have to being accused of something is to check with my own ideas about it. If it isn't true, then there is no need to defend it. In fact, defending it in a way validates it since it considers it might be true.

I have not cheated in my marriage, however, I have probably sat next to some kids fathers at school events over the years and spoken casually to them.  But none of this is doing anything wrong-in public, with families everywhere?

Someone could ask me questions till the cows come home but there is nothing going on and nothing to defend. I might say " there isn't anything I need to discuss with you and that's it" and no point in further discussion.

But I know how you feel because my H had nothing current to accuse me with so he then shamed me about guys I dated before I met him.  I had told him that I had other relationships before we met, but they were long over before that. At the time, I was JADEing about how could I possibly have cheated on him with someone  before I even knew him? Yet he raged and triggered so much shame in me that I felt like a slut even though I had been faithful to him since we started dating and was married for many years.

They can gaslight like that.

Not anymore. I do not have to feel any shame or explain anything because I have nothing to be ashamed of. Neither do you.

[Notwendy]

Also consider projection. I am not implying that she is cheating on you or even considering it,  but that when people have poor boundaries, they may be unaware of what normal boundaries are. I would say that two people sitting next to each other at a soccer game would have a certain formality about this, but someone with poor boundaries might not.

I would feel uncomfortable speaking too intimately with a man I am sitting next to at a game. I might talk about the game, or if I knew him, ask him how his kids are doing. However, I do know some women who just talk about anything, they have no filter. I have also seen women flirt with my H in front of me and not seem to think there us a problem. These women may not necessarily be "after" my H, but have loose boundaries with everyone. I also know a man who is a flirt with everyone. My H will sometimes say "he's flirting with you" but it doesn't mean a lot to me so I don't take it seriously. Most important are my own boundaries about this. 

So if someone has poor boundaries, they may think others do too.

[IsItHerOrIsItMe]

I tried to think what the other layers would be... .they lost their dad in 2007 and certainly form a tight circle with each other... .

When you say they lost their dad, do you mean that he passed away or that he ran away?

He passed away after an 18 month battle with esophageal cancer... .that's one thing my w isn't your typical pwBPD, I think the fear of abandonment wasn't formed in childhood but mid-life with the loss of her h.

Are there other layers withing YOU that make YOU afraid of being seen as running away?

I'm a typical middle-child, conflict avoider.  I was divorced and the Christian in me wonders if I just worked a little harder could we have worked it out... .

I honestly don't know if that's complicating my current r/s.  It's difficult to sort out when the steps I took to try and ensure I was ready to start dating (forgive my ex, be able to look back at our marriage with both fondness at the good times and realistic about it's end) are seen by my current w as "evidence" that I could go back to my ex... .It makes it very difficult to enjoy life when my w doesn't want to participate in activities I enjoy because I also enjoyed them "with her".

[formflier]

It makes it very difficult to enjoy life when my w doesn't want to participate in activities I enjoy because I also enjoyed them "with her".

My guess is... .you should not talk to your current wife... .about your ex.  In a positive... .or negative light. 

They will read lots of stuff into many things that are said.  Then... .if you try to talk them out of it... .it can be very invalidating to them... .(same as pouring fuel on the fire)... .many times it's best to let it burn itself (whatever they are upset about) out... .on it's own

My pwBPD traits seems similar to yours.  We had a natural disaster... were out of the family home for quite a while... .(4-5 months)... .that seems to be ground zero of where things went haywire.

FF

[waverider]

Walking away only seems like running away when you have left it too late and it appears an act of desperation rather than disengaging.

Hence FFs recommendation that the topic should be a non starter. A clear boundary from the get go. As you have found the sly incremental creep of innocent transgressions compounding to ambush you.

The more desperate you appear to avoid something the more it is perceived you have something to hide, especially if it comes at the end of progressively weakening JADEing

[formflier]

 

Yep... .exactly my thinking... .

There are some topics... .that my wife and I can discuss... .and you never know if it will go south... or be ok.  For those... .I will jump in and give it my best shot... .because... .sometimes they do go good.

There are other topics... .I can't remember ever going well.  I stay away from those.  I don't make a big deal of it... .I just don't do it.

FF

[IsItHerOrIsItMe]

Walking away only seems like running away when you have left it too late and it appears an act of desperation rather than disengaging.

Hence FFs recommendation that the topic should be a non starter. A clear boundary from the get go. As you have found the sly incremental creep of innocent transgressions compounding to ambush you.

The more desperate you appear to avoid something the more it is perceived you have something to hide, especially if it comes at the end of progressively weakening JADEing

But it seems making it a boundary would appear to be the most desperate of all actions... .

While my original post referenced my ex, it was actually my 'connection' (evidence of the connection being if I talked to her about my ex... .) to a woman we both know that regularly causes the dust-up... .

[formflier]

But it seems making it a boundary would appear to be the most desperate of all actions... .

While my original post referenced my ex, it was actually my 'connection' (evidence of the connection being if I talked to her about my ex... .) to a woman we both know that regularly causes the dust-up... .

Hmm... .how so?  I've got drama going on here... .so... .I'm not on top of my game... .but... .please explain a bit more...

FF

[formflier]

 

If... .you have pleasant... productive conversations about your ex... with your current wife... but only sometimes they go south... .

Then... ignore my advice... .

If... .most of the time... .the conversations go south... .then... .don't talk about it.  Just don't.

Hope that clarifies my advice... .

FF

[waverider]

Boundaries are your bottom line circuit breaker. Disengaging early is a redirection to avoid the temptation to approach a boundary. Disengaging smoothly and effective is a learned process, and can become subconscious.

The ideal is that you get so good at disengaging you hardly need to enact boundaries. Won't always work but thats the goal.

Often you have to start with the harsh boundary. after the extinction burst around that have died down it becomes easier to fall back on disengaging.

If something is bound to go bad, or make you feel real bad then there is no option to insert a boundary.

[IsItHerOrIsItMe]

If... .you have pleasant... productive conversations about your ex... with your current wife... but only sometimes they go south... .

Then... ignore my advice... .

If... .most of the time... .the conversations go south... .then... .don't talk about it.  Just don't.

Hope that clarifies my advice... .

FF

NP.  It's definately in the 'most' category... .which would be no problem if it was just conversations that specifically referenced her... .But the issue is far more wide-spread than that.  Any conversations of old vacations, family events my ex was at or any part of my life with her will be followed up with an argument that boils down to "if your life was so good go back to her", or "I don't feel I'm as good... .for you".

SET barely makes a dent during these 'discussions'. 

Just don't talk about it doesn't really work, unless I'm willing to ignore the 22 years of marriage, and never talk with my s or extended family about that 1/2 of my life.

[Cat Familiar]

Just don't talk about it doesn't really work, unless I'm willing to ignore the 22 years of marriage, and never talk with my s or extended family about that 1/2 of my life.

I hear you. Sometimes people will ask me questions (when I am in the company of my current husband) which have to do with events that happened years ago when I was married to my first husband. It never goes well if I have to recount any anecdote in which husband #1 appears, even peripherally. One time it even led to a somewhat controlled dysregulation in front of one of his old friends (who just happens to be a psychologist).

I've often wanted to ask this guy (who is a real oddball, but apparently good at his job) if he's seen the BPD side of my husband--but I don't think I will.

[formflier]

Just don't talk about it doesn't really work, unless I'm willing to ignore the 22 years of marriage, and never talk with my s or extended family about that 1/2 of my life.

OK... .so... hmmm

Then... .I would take  stepped approach... phased lines of defense... .

1.  Don't talk about it unless "needed"... .see Cat Familiars post... sometimes... .it has to be said.

2.  Do not pick up the pieces or help with the dysreg... .leave them to deal with their feelings.


Do you see something like this working... .?

Could work to announce... .I'm going to be talking about (fill in name)... stay at your own risk?  Can you do this in lighthearted way... .give them an easy out... .to walk away?

FF

[IsItHerOrIsItMe]

Just don't talk about it doesn't really work, unless I'm willing to ignore the 22 years of marriage, and never talk with my s or extended family about that 1/2 of my life.

OK... .so... hmmm

Then... .I would take  stepped approach... phased lines of defense... .

1.  Don't talk about it unless "needed"... .see Cat Familiars post... sometimes... .it has to be said.

2.  Do not pick up the pieces or help with the dysreg... .leave them to deal with their feelings.

Do you see something like this working... .?

This might, I've tried to set a boundary about these types of conversations... .she's gotten good at taking tiny steps up to that line to try and thwart it.

Could work to announce... .I'm going to be talking about (fill in name)... stay at your own risk?  Can you do this in lighthearted way... .give them an easy out... .to walk away?

This one not so much... .It's not like we plan ahead what will be said when the family gets together... .with an extended family of 30+ people even things that are planned are often changed... .

[formflier]

This one not so much... .It's not like we plan ahead what will be said when the family gets together... .with an extended family of 30+ people even things that are planned are often changed... .

No need for a plan... .make it lighthearted and spur of the moment.  You get asked question... .your answer would involve (fill in the blank)... .you know that name is triggering... .

"Hey... .anyone that doesn't want to hear about (fill in the blank) ... clear out... ."

[IsItHerOrIsItMe]

OK, does this really work for anybody? 

If I'm in a group of a dozen family members, including my current w.  Someone says, remember in 2005 when you went to Mt. Rushmore and zzz happened... .wasn't that a hoot?

And my response should be... .Entering 'reminiscing mode'... .if you don't want to participate please remove yourself from the room... .

With someone with abandonment issues, and "feels" apart from the family I don't see the light at the end of the tunnel here.

[vortex of confusion]

If I'm in a group of a dozen family members, including my current w.  Someone says, remember in 2005 when you went to Mt. Rushmore and zzz happened... .wasn't that a hoot?

How do you respond now?

Can you respond with something like, "yeah, that was a hoot" and leave it at that? The ex isn't being mentioned at all.

In a situation like this, how does your wife respond?

I am not sure that I understand the situation.

[waverider]

I have a boundary: I will not block or deny my past

I had issues like that with my second wife, who wasn't BPD she blocked the existence of my previous marriage and also her past relationships. Eventually I felt invalidated by that as though something was being taken from me. It made me feel as  though it was a skeleton in my closet, which it wasn't, it was my past not all good, but not all bad either.

My ex has now remarried and together with her new H is effectively trying to deny my existence as much as possible. I yet to still officially meet her new H despite having us having two kids and the youngest being shared care. Its just not healthy for anyone.

Now I will own my past, it is part of me and if my current partner, BPD not withstanding, will simply have to get used to it, and she has. Sure I wouldn't bring it up unnecessarily, but neither will I avoid it in context.

Tip toe around it once and you set a precedent that makes further mentions of it seen as deliberate.

[IsItHerOrIsItMe]

If I'm in a group of a dozen family members, including my current w.  Someone says, remember in 2005 when you went to Mt. Rushmore and zzz happened... .wasn't that a hoot?

How do you respond now?

Can you respond with something like, "yeah, that was a hoot" and leave it at that? The ex isn't being mentioned at all.

In a situation like this, how does your wife respond?

I am not sure that I understand the situation.

That's typically how the conversation goes... .it's been long enough that most of my family have picked up if I don't elaborate neither will they... .

Then, when we're alone my w will want to discuss how "disrespected" she was, I'll try to walk the line between validating her feelings, responding with my thoughts that no one was disrespecting her intentionally.

Later (might or might not be the same conversation) we'll discuss vacations and she'll rule out Mr. Rushmore because I went there "with her" and she "doesn't want me to be thinking of her when we're on vacation".  That's where I usually lose it, because of course I did things I liked with my ex... .I like to do them.  I'll state OK, I'll hit Mt. Rushmore and she can do something else... .(OK now it's not a practical example... .there's nothing else around Mt R for others to do).  For her that's even worse, I could be "having memories" and she's not there to monitor it... .

So if I gave in to what she wanted I'd never talk about the first 48 years of my life, we'd never do any activity, or visit anywhere I did prior to my w's & my first date.

So when I try to set a boundary, it's like why bother being married if I'm not allowed to acknowledge 90% of my life... .

[vortex of confusion]

Then, when we're alone my w will want to discuss how "disrespected" she was, I'll try to walk the line between validating her feelings, responding with my thoughts that no one was disrespecting her intentionally.

Would it be possible to ask her something like, "Help me understand how you were being disrespected?"

So if I gave in to what she wanted I'd never talk about the first 48 years of my life, we'd never do any activity, or visit anywhere I did prior to my w's & my first date.

I am curious as to how long you were married to your ex and whether or not you did a lot more fun stuff with her than you did with your current wife. I have an inkling of a thought but am not sure how to articulate it. Is she this way about everything that you did prior to her or is it just stuff related to your ex?

I am asking that question because I have noticed over the years that my husband tends to talk about stuff that he did before we were married way more than he talks about stuff that he has done since we got married 17 years ago. He talks about scout camp outs, parties in college, and all sorts of stuff from the past. Sometimes, it feels like his life stopped once he married me because of how he talks about things before me and after me. I know that isn't the case. I don't have any jealousy or bad feelings. It is something that I have noticed and have been thinking about that. I figured I would throw that out there for you to ponder.