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Author Topic: Need boundary ideas  (Read 582 times)
patientandclear
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« on: June 13, 2015, 03:18:18 AM »

Hello Staying ... .

Not too many people around here will remember my posts from a couple years back.  The thumbnail is that my uBPD exbf and I had a protracted (15 month) intimate friendship with romantic overtones which he explicitly disavowed as romantic (this was after nearly a year of NC after he ended our love affair for reasons that were and remain murky.  He now says he doesn't know why).  I reconnected with him as a friend, intending it to be a friendship -- without ulterior motives.  But our time together was great, we developed the kind of connection you have with a partner, and it became more complicated emotionally for me and, I think, also for him.

Then he suddenly moved to another city.  We had some tension around that, seemed to work through it, and for a little while, it felt we were closer than ever.  I visited, he visited.  But then it became clear he was pursuing relationships with other women (not that he told me this, I just figured it out).  That was painful for me, I felt I had to step back from our daily intimate communication, which upset him, and he basically told me to have a nice life, but maybe he'd look me up somewhere down the road.

A few months later he did make efforts to reunite.  His romance had imploded (again, just something I could figure out from other sources, he did not tell me).  I told him I thought we should not see each other or be in regular communication unless something had changed.  No response for many months.  He finally got back in touch saying, basically, he would do anything I needed so he could have me back in his life.  We had a series of conversations that I didn't handle very well, in which I explained I couldn't be his "friend" anymore, it would need to be acknowledged as more.  He initially sounded willing to do that. I was leery of him just agreeing to this as the "price" of my presence in his life, thought he could come to resent it, but we never resolved that, because pretty quickly, he had a negative reaction to something I said, and all of a sudden we were back to being "friends."  I said I couldn't do that, and would need to say goodbye.  He was terribly upset.  I got mad at him for the only time in our entire 4 year saga, saying I couldn't forgive that he'd gotten back in touch with the premise that things would be different, only to end up offering me the same deal I'd already said I couldn't manage.

Several months of silence passed, and I realized I have had a hard time employing boundaries in this relationship without exiting.  I actually have been pretty firm about my own boundaries but it's nearly always along the lines of "if you can't do X I've got to go."  I enforce the boundaries by being gone.  (So has he, but this post is about my choices and making different ones.)

I am now back in touch with him and am trying to articulate and maintain a boundary without exiting the connection entirely.  But honestly, I am really struggling with what a boundary IS in this situation.  My whole problem with what we do is that he desires deep intimate access to me, but also wants it to have no name, no obligation, no commitment, no need to negotiate its terms if he wants to leave or see someone else.  That does not work for me.  I've now done a decent job of explaining all that, and so far, he is unable or unwilling to do the intimate relationship on terms that work for me.  I am trying not to entirely cut off the connection, to stay in place and set limits or boundaries that are appropriate to the terms he IS willing to engage on.

What I'm struggling with is what that can look like.  He would like daily contact.  He would like something that looks and feels like a long distance partnership except no one says words of love (and he can see others).  I need it to be something other than that.  But artificially reducing that (we'll only write two days a week ... .only engage on superficial subjects ... .make communications half as involved as they would be otherwise ... .) don't seem to hit the mark at all.

What I'd like to do is hang onto the intimate, deep, sweet, tender quality of our interactions (after all, that is the whole reason to be doing this), but somehow differentiate between this arrangement, and what we would have if I were his acknowledged partner.  Any ideas on how to configure this so I don't slide right back into something that is going to hurt and disappoint me again?  I need really strong clarity on what we are doing, and not doing, if he is going to pursue others.  I simply can't participate in what would essentially be an open relationship with me as the primary emotional partner and him professing passionate love for and making love to other women.  So ... .is there some arrangement I'm not seeing that allows us to remain in meaningful contact but without sliding into that?  Something that allows for growth, that is kind, that is logical and fair?

Thanks ... .
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« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2015, 06:50:32 AM »

Hi patientandclear,

I've been there and I totally understand what you are going through.

What works for you doesn't works for him and viceversa.

It won't be easy but if you really wish to give it a try you might consider:

1 - Setting a specific date up to which you will work on improving the relationship. If things don't progress, then, this date will mark the end of your patience and the end of your efforts. Just make sure you don't stay in limbo.

2 - The inconvinience with long distance relationships is that they can easily develop into a "phoneship". Spending time together is very important. So both of you must make plans to go visit eachother consistenly.

3 - Communicate your boundaries clearly and dearly, and stay your ground. Sometimes there is no other way but to express that crossing certain boundaries will force you to exit the present situation.

4 - Understand that having a functional relationship will be difficult, so lower for a while your expectations. Accept also that he will make mistakes (you might too).

5 - Stay in touch with your feelings and ensure your well being. There will be difficult days so measure well for how long you wish to persist (ie: set specific date).

6 - Ultimately. If you look for "success stories" online you'll see that most of them involve that the pwBPD seeks professional help (probably the partner too). 

You might consider to not participate/engage him or go along with "just friends" or "open relatiosnhip" terms. Let him know you love him, but that you aren't interested in only friendship or an open relatiosnhip, so he can call you if he changes his mind. If he does, set up dates with "intimate, deep, sweet, tender quality of our interactions". Be flexible also, it won't always be easy with intimacy. Just hang out, have fun and be understanding of his condition.

About the option of going No Contact. Frankly, sometimes it's the best you can offer to both of you. You deserve to live in harmony with your goals and values. As strange as it may sound, your absence could be the best exemple of integrity and self respect he could have. The alternative to "staying" or going "full no contact" is to take a very long break, move on with your life and achieve your goals (ie: exclusive, loving and healthy relationship with someone else). Then, you could come back to the pwBPD as a friend with no romantic interests and offer support. I've seen this work so I share it with you for your consideration.

Take care Smiling (click to insert in post)



     
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babyducks
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« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2015, 07:27:48 AM »

Hi patientandclear,

I do actually remember your posts from a couple of years back.  I find it amazing what we, as non's have experienced as we work to navigate our relationships.   Nice to have you back with us.   

I'm not sure that I have all the nuances of your situation figured out but what seemed significant to me was this:

Excerpt
My whole problem with what we do is that he desires deep intimate access to me, but also wants it to have no name, no obligation, no commitment, no need to negotiate its terms if he wants to leave or see someone else.  That does not work for me. 

My Therapist used to say to me, a lot as a matter of fact; "Babyducks, you need to put on your emotional armor and control the supply you provide to your pwBPD."

I think you stated your boundary.  Deep intimate access comes with obligation and commitment.  If he can't agree to a commitment to you and fulfill the agreement, you should control the intimacy of relationship like water flowing through a tap.   You don't have to turn it off completely but you can put on your emotional armor and deliberately and consciously dial down the intimacy between you.

I think that would be amazingly difficult to do.  It would require a level of self discipline that I, for sure, do not possess.   

When my partner emotionally dsyregulates, I have practiced not taking on those emotions.  I have some affirmations that I have written on 3x5 index cards that attempt to create invisible emotional barriers, where the end result is I don't let her emotions in.    I don't do that with her positive emotions, only with her negative ones.   It sounds like in the situation you are describing you would have to do that with the positive emotions?

I would be wary of being overly available to the connection you describe, but would consider deliberately holding part of me in reserve as a protection to me and my emotions.   If he is receiving the benefits of having the connection he wants with out a commitment, he won't be motivated to act differently.   

Just my two cents.

'ducks

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patientandclear
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« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2015, 10:13:08 AM »

Babyducks ... .first, yes, it is amazingly difficult to put up barriers between me and his positive emotions.  It feels crazy, and it runs against every instinct.  That however is what I've decided to try to do, because I can't think of anything else.  So I'm trying to figure out ways to make that concrete.

I was in NC for a long, long time.  When I began telling him I needed either more or less, he got mad, sent me off into purgatory for a few months, didn't contact me ... .and I used that as a convenient chance to end it in my head and heart.  When he wanted to come back around, I held him at extreme arm's length.  Said I didn't want to be in communication or to meet if he was still in the same place (he'll see other people, won't acknowledge the role of our relationship).

Did that for 10 months.  But this spring he got in touch and begged me to explore and reconsider.  As noted in the original post, we sort of fought that one to a draw -- we don't want the same thing.  And yes, my initial stance was to go back to NC.  But in the months since, it has seemed to me that that does not give us a chance to grow and try, with full knowledge of what I want and how I feel.  I think for most pwBPD, going off all by themselves and reaching a conclusion that they really want to be committed to someone else tends to be an unsustainable decision based on abandonment panic.  He was ready and willing to make lots of promises to me when he first got back in touch.  But it soon became clear it was just what he thought was my "purchase price," which is a bad reason to make a commitment.

For him, trust is all-important.  Trust is the main inhibitor of his ability to commit.  I don't know how to build trust in the absence of one another.  Obviously if we are communicating, trust also requires reliable, sturdy, loving boundaries, and that's what I'm searching for here -- how to enforce limited access to me without making him feel I am unreliable or don't care.

I've reached the conclusion you did, which is that if he can have all the benefits of a committed relationship and none of the obligations, why would he even explore whether his feelings could change?  I've tried it in the past and he loved it -- and went right out and explored relationships with others.  Starting over again with no boundaries feels ... .stupid.  And like permission to repeat that.  But concretely, what boundaries make sense here? Talk once a week? No email?  (Daily email is his preferred level of communication with me.)  Letters only?  :)on't see each other? (He is moving much closer to me in a few weeks.)  :)o see each other?  ?
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« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2015, 11:24:16 AM »

Hi. I remember. And wanted to ask: Are they boundaries you're looking for, or ways to bend so you can somehow keep him in your life? Is what you're striving for actually feasible with him (even though the patterns and possibilities have long been apparent), or are you just re-hooked now, and extra afraid to let go/move on? Since you're posting this on Staying, best of luck as always. But perhaps the answer is in what you wrote above:

we don't want the same thing.

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patientandclear
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« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2015, 11:31:34 AM »

Hi. I remember. And wanted to ask: Are they boundaries you're looking for, or ways to bend so you can somehow keep him in your life? Is what you're striving for actually feasible with him (even though the patterns and possibilities have long been apparent), or are you just re-hooked now, and extra afraid to let go/move on? Since you're posting this on Staying, best of luck as always. But perhaps the answer is in what you wrote above:

we don't want the same thing.


Hi ... .what I'm open to is the possibility of change and learning, if I'm not scared to talk to him about what I want.  He wants our connection and closeness.  I've only managed the "we don't want the same thing" problem in the past by very crude boundaries ("OK I'm leaving then".  That leaves us both very unhappy.  I have never had the intestinal fortitude to stay and articulate what works for me, what doesn't work, and give him a chance to choose without having to deal with extreme loss and the resentments and damage that come with that.

In the conversations we had this spring, he begged me to stay and stay in dialogue about it because "people change, things change."  I am not willing to just return to his ideal scenario in the hope that things will change.  That's dumb.  And -- I've already done it once.  But I've never been able to make my peace with cutting him off entirely.  I think I've been too scared (of loss, of rejection) to remain in contact with boundaries.  So ... .I would like to try that.  But I need ideas for what those could look like under this scenario.
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« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2015, 11:40:59 AM »

I remember your story then. Here are your choices as I see them:

1. Intimate non-exclusive long distance friendship. What he offered. All along... .with occasional push pull games. What you said no to before. This last time he promised more, but I doubt he is capable of it.

2. Less intimate friendship. One where you choose to limit your intimacy with him... .because you don't trust him to give you more. He may well share more than you, and try to pull you in closer if you maintain distance. (You need strong boundaries for this)

3. NC

I doubt you like any of the three very much.   I wish I saw a more appealing option.

Here are some other thoughts... .

Have you been separated long enough to do any dating yourself yet? Or did he always PPP back up before you were ready?

Do you have close intimate friends or family you can talk to about relationship issues (like this) face to face or on the phone?
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« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2015, 01:14:41 PM »

Hi GK and thanks!

Yes, lots of friends who have heard about this ad nauseum in real life. Most disagree with my current route. Some grasp that I have a hard time giving up on this without exhausting all options.

Of options you outline, which I agree are those available, I ruled out 1 and am now ruling out 3. That leaves 2, and that's what I'm doing. I'm looking for concrete ideas about how to limit intimacy while not diminishing or distorting the nature of the r/s. I'd like to make it rich but intermittent/occasional, so it can't be mistaken by either of us for a sort of chaste marriage. But that feels like withholding and sometimes feels kind of mean. So, specific suggestions about limits here would be very helpful.
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123Phoebe
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« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2015, 05:41:53 AM »

Hi P&C, welcome back to staying Smiling (click to insert in post)

I'm looking for concrete ideas about how to limit intimacy while not diminishing or distorting the nature of the r/s. I'd like to make it rich but intermittent/occasional, so it can't be mistaken by either of us for a sort of chaste marriage. But that feels like withholding and sometimes feels kind of mean. So, specific suggestions about limits here would be very helpful.

Honestly, I think you're thinking too much about this, about how to do things just so, so that... . 

Keep in mind that we have no control over how or what someone else thinks or feels. 

Can you describe what the nature of the relationship is, right now, today?  Can you find happiness and contentment today, no matter what he's doing?

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babyducks
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« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2015, 08:05:59 AM »

Hi patientandclear,

this is a tough one for sure.

here is what I am thinking.

to remain in contact with boundaries.  So ... .I would like to try that.  But I need ideas for what those could look like under this scenario.

When I first came to bpdfamily I was on the leaving board because my r/s had suffered a catastrophic event and my r/s had severed abruptly as we both tried to recover.   My choice at that time was to be NC, my partner's choice at that time was to remain LC.  We were very much at odds and it was very difficult.   As things worked out we very often saw each other in public venues.   What I learned from that was the mechanics of contact were beyond my control and not the significant portion.

So I am going to suggest to you P&C that specific suggestions about the practical realties may not be the most helpful thing.     Email contact only, letters only, once a week, once a month,  yeah those limits might help.    From what I experienced, I am going to guess what would also help is managing the content of the contact.



2. Less intimate friendship. One where you choose to limit your intimacy with him... .because you don't trust him to give you more. He may well share more than you, and try to pull you in closer if you maintain distance. (You need strong boundaries for this)

For simplicities sake I am going to call Grey Kitty's option number two LC.   I can't begin to describe how much intestinal fortitude it took to do LC when I was doing it.         It was for me a maelstrom of emotions.   It was however a way of establishing and maintaining internal boundaries.   My goal was to be able to see my partner and not have it affect me.   To be able to open and close the door to my heart at my will.   It was, to quote the old song, an inside job.   Just because I loved her, and I wasn't willing to reject that love out of hand, didn't mean I was going to be at the mercy of her behavior.   

Which is why my T spent a lot of time telling me to build emotional armor.  Not so much stuffing my emotions but putting them away behind a safe wall to be dealt with when they would be respected and cherished for the gift they were.   Yes sometimes that did feel like withholding.   It did feel counter intuitive.  It was necessary.  It was part of the process for me.

Practically, what that looked like for me was to come up with a list of triggers, and different ways of coping with them.   The exercise I was given, and that really worked for me was:

When  __________   event happens I feel____________ so I will _________________.

Filling in the blanks looked like this for me, When I see my partner at a public event I feel an enormous tug on my heart strings and the urge to throw caution to the wind, which is a poor choice right now, so instead I will nod pleasantly say it's very good to see you and exit with dignity.   

That was the beginning of establishing a boundary for me.    The When X, I feel, so I will, formula is helpful.

The mechanics of that were, I spent of lot of time saying.  "that's not a conversation I can have right now".   "I respect your opinion, and I think I need to return to this topic later."   "I appreciate that is how you feel, I don't happen to share your sense of things."    Deliberately setting up verbal roadblocks to keep us away from emotionally loaded and intense conversations.  It was, as I said upstream, not so much managing the contact, as managing the content.   When I felt the conversation was going to go okay and I could handle it we went further into those topics.   Strangely it seemed to make my partner feel much more comfortable.   Which I don't quite understand.

So we could discuss baseball, and current events, job stress, and the weather without limits.  There were limits around topics like our relationship, our emotional needs, either one of us had the right to stop the conversation when it drifted into, what was for us, unsafe territory.

. That leaves 2, and that's what I'm doing. I'm looking for concrete ideas about how to limit intimacy while not diminishing or distorting the nature of the r/s. I'd like to make it rich but intermittent/occasional, so it can't be mistaken by either of us for a sort of chaste marriage. But that feels like withholding and sometimes feels kind of mean. So, specific suggestions about limits here would be very helpful.

I think we give advice here all the time on how to limit circular arguments and rages.   I would suggest some of that advice would work when you feel the love bombing coming on.   Draw your own mental line in the sand about where you feel it's necessary to stop the emotional closeness.   If he likes to email daily, can you delay your response until your own level of reactivity dies down a little?     If he uses affectionate nicknames that are triggering to you can you draw a boundary around that?   I know I am really trying to pull a rabbit out of my hat here.   Perhaps if you reply to 123Phoebe's

Can you describe what the nature of the relationship is, right now, today? 

with an example of an exchange we can point out really definitive boundaries.

best of luck

'ducks.

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patientandclear
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« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2015, 10:45:41 AM »

Hi P&C, welcome back to staying Smiling (click to insert in post)

I'm looking for concrete ideas about how to limit intimacy while not diminishing or distorting the nature of the r/s. I'd like to make it rich but intermittent/occasional, so it can't be mistaken by either of us for a sort of chaste marriage. But that feels like withholding and sometimes feels kind of mean. So, specific suggestions about limits here would be very helpful.

Honestly, I think you're thinking too much about this, about how to do things just so, so that... . 

Keep in mind that we have no control over how or what someone else thinks or feels. 

Can you describe what the nature of the relationship is, right now, today?  Can you find happiness and contentment today, no matter what he's doing?

Hi Phoebe!  I was hoping you might comment.

Well, I'm often guilty of thinking too much!  But I promise I am not trying to control what he feels.  I simply am not sure what he feels (or will feel or can feel) and don't want to foreclose the possibility of growth with a rigid no contact arrangement, as in the past.  Meanwhile, though, I need to protect myself from hurtful dynamics that we've recently lived through.

What I left out of my recap (but which I know you remember, Phoebe) is that I was done with this.  It was pretty traumatic for me.  I already did the thing where you don't think too much and just go with what seems to be working for us both and to feel good for us both.  I was good at that -- I have a high tolerance for ambiguity -- and it went really well for quite a while.  It led to a sweet, tender, intimate relationship (except we were not having sex and he didn't call it a relationship).  But.  He then left town and started seeing someone else, which felt to me like a betrayal of what we were doing, but which he evidently didn't see that way because, after all, he said we were just friends.  I was on these boards at the time in real pain about this and I remember you & MaybeSo and others saying, yeah, if my BPD SO suddenly moved across the continent in the middle of our complex intimate tender "friendship"/unacknowledged partnership, I would regard that as a game-changer.

So ... .the reason I'm thinking so carefully now is that I already tried the route where we just do what feels good. Where we just let it unfold.  It's fantastic.  We both love it.  But he then regards himself as having a green light to see others.  This time, I have been super explicit that that hurts me.  I've said I am going to have boundaries on this point -- that if he is going to reserve the "right" to explore love relationships with other women, I will not be able to be intimately involved with him.  Even thinking that it makes sense to be in contact is a new development for me.  And, even though he toyed with the idea of making this offer a few months back, our current status is that he has NOT made any commitment not to see other women.  And he is back to calling it a friendship.  Even though in various ways in the past few months, he has acknowledged it is not really that.

One of the things we have going for us is that I have enforced boundaries on this issue -- so far.  He is constantly wrecking relationships with others and has expressed relief that I will protect my own emotional health.  I am absolutely committed to protecting my own emotional health.  I love this guy.  We could have an awesome long term relationship.  But I do not want to be in an open relationship.  I need that to be a well-understood boundary.  And this feels like it is heading right back into that territory.  I don't believe I would know if he is seeing or pursuing someone else.  I learned about it last time through happenstance.  Which is why I have been relying on an explicit conversation about the terms of what we are doing this time.

I do get the appeal of "let's just start again, with no preconditions, and see where it goes."  That is certainly the route he wants.  My values are in line with that too, EXCEPT that I already did that and ended up going through an emotional meat-grinder.  It seems like I'd be an idiot to sign up for the exact same process again.  And it would send him some unhelpful, not to mention confusing, messages about what works for me.

We've been super honest with each other in recent months, but I am not eager to plunge back into a relationship discussion to hash this out again, either. I would like to just act in accordance with boundaries that are in keeping with what I've said, but also, give us a chance to grow and go in a new direction if that is something he decides he wants.  Just having a hard time understanding what that looks like.

In terms of what the relationship IS ... .we're still emerging from a protracted period of no contact, feeling our way.  We talked by phone several times this spring, and emailed and texted a bit.  Now, back to email (that's how I reached out to him last month).  He has mentioned phone calls and visiting and "hanging out" when he moves closer to me next month.  I am open to all those things but just need not to be communicating tacitly to him that I'm OK returning to our old arrangement, where we explore being super close and then he pursues other women.  I'm not OK with that, I will not be OK with that, returning to that will cause me to again withdraw from any intimate connection, which will hurt him, etc.

Right now, what I've said is "unless you tell me you're not interested in pursuing relationships with other women, I need this to be pretty confined.  I can't give you what I give you and then learn you are professing love to others."  And where he is right now (as opposed to a few months back before our conversations went down the tubes, when he was speaking of a monogamy/committed arrangement, but because he thought it was what I wanted) is "I'll be your friend without preconditions."  I don't know what that means and we're taking a break from discussing what it means.

I'd love to take what I call a Phoebe approach.  We do well with that.  But last time ... .oof.  He did that with me and then engaged in behavior that I felt was an emotional betrayal of what we were to each other.  He did not agree or at least, though he had secured explicit agreements that made it OK to do what he did.  OK, I can see that point of view.  And it is on me to not repeat that.

WWPD?  Smiling (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2015, 11:04:41 AM »

I think we give advice here all the time on how to limit circular arguments and rages.   I would suggest some of that advice would work when you feel the love bombing coming on.   :)raw your own mental line in the sand about where you feel it's necessary to stop the emotional closeness.   If he likes to email daily, can you delay your response until your own level of reactivity dies down a little?     If he uses affectionate nicknames that are triggering to you can you draw a boundary around that?   I know I am really trying to pull a rabbit out of my hat here.   Perhaps if you reply to 123Phoebe's

Can you describe what the nature of the relationship is, right now, today? 

with an example of an exchange we can point out really definitive boundaries.

best of luck

'ducks.

Babyducks -- cannot tell you how helpful this is.  Exactly -- it IS an inside job (which is what I've been telling my real life friends who are super skeptical that I can find boundaries that will really help in this situation).  Your idea that this is about content more than format is very smart.  Really, levels of emotional access.  And your recognition that it DOES feel like withholding and it does suck, is also super helpful.

I do think I can (with difficulty) manage my own feelings and expectations.  I am very reality-based about all this.

But I also feel an obligation to clearly communication to him what I can and cannot do.  It has hurt him a lot to have me withdraw.  He's asked me to tell him what doesn't work for me.  That's a very fair request.  I really, really want to continue being clear with him.  How else can we learn and progress, to whatever point we can and ought to reach?

***

So here's a concrete example.  I was going with "I can't go back to our daily email thing," because that symbolizes our old arrangement, and also, readily becomes a substitute for real connection.  He and I both get that phone calls and in person are better, and more honest.

So a week ago I responded to an interesting email he wrote, by saying I'd write a real letter, explaining that I wanted not to just fall back into our old thing.  I sent the letter, along with a small gift, through the mail.  He acknowledged what I was trying to do, but wrote an email when he got the package saying thank you, he loved it, he'd write soon.  I felt like I needed to acknowledge the nice thank you email.  So I responded, briefly, nicely, and added a question and sent a link to a story.  He then responded full-bore to that with a full friendly sweet email, to which I responded in a limited but nice way, and he responded again nearly instantly with new content ... .he wants to reestablish this way of connecting, I get that.  It was sort of our hallmark.  And there is nothing inherently bad going on.  It just represents me having no boundaries.  I'm sitting here this morning, not having replied yet, knowing that makes him wonder if he offended me or if I'm going away again ... .I will answer in some fashion, but I feel very much like I am sending the message that going back to where we were before would be OK.  It wouldn't.

Thanks for any help ... .

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« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2015, 11:29:37 AM »

P&C, I think you are getting the kind of boundaries that you need to feel safe with your guy. I'm kinda doing the same with my wife right now, but she decided she wants to separate snd I'm not fighting that. In fact I'm pushing it farther than she is for my emotional health, and not having any intimate conversations with her at all while I heal and we finish division of assets/belongings. I've got other friends I'm getting those needs met with now

I'm afraid you are missing a bigger issue here... .what you are talking about is how to manage this relationship better. NOT how to get your own needs met (which your guy can do some of but not all of)

I suspect you need the kind of emotionally intimate connection you had with him during good times/phases.

You can't get that from him in the LC relationship. And you don't seem ready to trust him that much either.

You say you don't want an open relationship on either your side or his side, so you can't get it from another guy in a romantic relationship.

Can you get this with other non-romantic friends or family members?

Do you want to be connected to him at the expense of making that kind of intimacy not a part of any romantic relationship you have? (Since he doesn't seem completely safe for it but is keeping you from looking for others)

Let me be clear--I'm not trying to steer you out of this relationship, even though I feel like I sound negative. I'm trying to work out what this relationship can be and what the limits are with you. When you were wishing it was something it wasn't you went through the meat grinder last time.

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« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2015, 11:38:54 AM »

I guess I am trying to remain reality-based but make room for and actually encourage growth.  I do NOT think my BPD guy gets HIS deepest needs met, the way he manages relationships.  He is often very sad and almost always very anxious.  I believe we could get somewhere more satisfying.  But I won't run that experiment with him again on the same terms as before.

So it's not just that I am managing the r/ship as-is.  I could do that just by giving up all aspirations for it to be other than it is now.  I want to manage it to make it possible for us to grow.  On terms that work for us both.

That's why boundaries matter as a communication mechanism.  If he chose to forgo some of his usual coping strategies (spinning through superficial intimate connections with woman after woman at great cost to those women), I would go further, in ways that are meaningful and desirable to him.  I'd like not to muddy the waters by acting like that is going to happen if he continues with those coping strategies, as well.
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« Reply #14 on: June 14, 2015, 03:13:33 PM »

I'm sure there's more to it and the two of you have a connection and all that good stuff.  With that being said and without trying to manage your relationship or the way you go about it, it just sounds to me like your relationship is based on things you don't want-- that the essence of it is communicating things away that you're uncomfortable with.

I will answer in some fashion, but I feel very much like I am sending the message that going back to where we were before would be OK.  It wouldn't.

What is it that you're wanting from him?  Not want you don't want, but what you do, ultimately?  Is the way things are now not okay?

When was the last time you saw each other?

WWPD?  Smiling (click to insert in post)

I don't know what WWPD means?



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« Reply #15 on: June 14, 2015, 04:10:34 PM »

WWPD = What Would Phoebe Do? Smiling (click to insert in post)

We last saw each other almost 2 years ago.  We were planning to meet up when I realized he was seeing someone else ... .I started exploring what we were really doing together, he got mad and cut off communication for a while, their r/ship imploded, he made plans to come see me, I said not if we were going back to the same old arrangement (where we're close and he dates others). So we have not seen each other for a long time. That could change ... .He will be much closer.

I love being with him. He seems to feel the same. We're good together, there really are no obvious problems. My problem is that that is true BUT he says we can only be friends AND he dates others (though he conceals that from me so I may not even be aware of specific instances. I just know he will, and has). I don't like putting an artificial cap on what we do. But his involvement with other women (rather, that history plus that he is not disavowing that interest going forward) makes me feel like an idiot for resuming what we both like so much.
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« Reply #16 on: June 14, 2015, 05:43:58 PM »

We last saw each other almost 2 years ago. 

2 years is a long time.  I wouldn't consider it resuming anything. 
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« Reply #17 on: June 14, 2015, 07:50:18 PM »

It's long distance so we weren't literally seeing each other often anyway. We were in daily communication till the big flare up where he told me to have a nice life after I said I couldn't be as close with him if he was seeing someone else. That however was 18 months ago.

What are the implications of "I wouldn't consider it resuming anything?" We had a well established thing where we communicated intimately daily and (eventually) he felt free to pursue others. I will not knowingly resume that. And because he conceals his other romantic interests from me, I wouldn't necessarily know.

Are you saying what makes sense, if we're going to have contact at all, is to assume this is a new day and we can give it a fresh start without my manning the barricades quite so vigilantly?

When I contemplate that (which is essentially what I did when we first reunited after the breakup and long NC period), I wonder what possible reason I would have to think that would go differently. Especially because surely he will receive the message that I am not serious about these deal breaker issues I've flagged.

It feels more likely that we could achieve some incremental improved understanding through some kind of limited contact with boundaries. I'm guessing that doesn't resonate with you Phoebe? It's true that that will distort the normal ebb and flow of our relationship, but don't I have every reason to think he will continue to see other women? And if I just walk back into a situation without limits or boundaries, how am I not telling him that that is fine with me?
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« Reply #18 on: June 14, 2015, 08:43:49 PM »

What are the implications of "I wouldn't consider it resuming anything?" We had a well established thing where we communicated intimately daily and (eventually) he felt free to pursue others. I will not knowingly resume that. And because he conceals his other romantic interests from me, I wouldn't necessarily know.

I meant just that, I wouldn't resume what the two of you had together. 

It feels more likely that we could achieve some incremental improved understanding through some kind of limited contact with boundaries. I'm guessing that doesn't resonate with you Phoebe? It's true that that will distort the normal ebb and flow of our relationship, but don't I have every reason to think he will continue to see other women? And if I just walk back into a situation without limits or boundaries, how am I not telling him that that is fine with me?



Yes, you have absolutely every reason to think he'll see other women, he's told you as much.  If you're willing to go back into this, you're going in knowing full well that this is what he'll do.  Like others have suggested, you protect yourself, protect your heart.  What you have right now isn't exclusive. 

What does achieving some incremental improved understanding mean or look like to you?



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« Reply #19 on: June 15, 2015, 03:31:34 PM »

I guess I am trying to remain reality-based but make room for and actually encourage growth.  I do NOT think my BPD guy gets HIS deepest needs met, the way he manages relationships.  He is often very sad and almost always very anxious.  I believe we could get somewhere more satisfying.  But I won't run that experiment with him again on the same terms as before.

So it's not just that I am managing the r/ship as-is.  I could do that just by giving up all aspirations for it to be other than it is now.  I want to manage it to make it possible for us to grow.  On terms that work for us both.

That's why boundaries matter as a communication mechanism.  If he chose to forgo some of his usual coping strategies (spinning through superficial intimate connections with woman after woman at great cost to those women), I would go further, in ways that are meaningful and desirable to him.  I'd like not to muddy the waters by acting like that is going to happen if he continues with those coping strategies, as well.

1. Your boundaries cannot stop him from his "usual coping strategies" with other women.

What is a safe emotional distance from him for YOU to have if (when?) he does resume?

Keeping that distance is the only boundary I can think of for you to protect yourself... .how far away is it?

2. I asked you about getting YOUR emotional needs met, not getting his met. Are you able to do that (perhaps with other people) and still keep whatever distance you find safe from him?
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« Reply #20 on: June 15, 2015, 04:34:24 PM »

  I'm sitting here this morning, not having replied yet, knowing that makes him wonder if he offended me or if I'm going away again ... .I will answer in some fashion, but I feel very much like I am sending the message that going back to where we were before would be OK.  It wouldn't.

Thanks for any help ... .

Somebody here once told me (Winston72) "twisting yourself into a pretzel trying to shape yourself to match her ability to understand/comprehend ends up with you terribly twisted in your own thinking and overly identified with her thinking".

How and when you respond is based first on what is comfortable for you and THEN second what works for him.   Your primary responsibility is to yourself and protecting your own emotional vulnerability with this guy.   When you feel calm and centered reply in a way that feels, natural, organic and non anxiety producing to you.

I wouldn't let him drive the bus.

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« Reply #21 on: June 16, 2015, 01:18:56 AM »

Excerpt
Any ideas on how to configure this so I don't slide right back into something that is going to hurt and disappoint me again?  I need really strong clarity on what we are doing, and not doing, if he is going to pursue others.  I simply can't participate in what would essentially be an open relationship with me as the primary emotional partner and him professing passionate love for and making love to other women.  So ... .is there some arrangement I'm not seeing that allows us to remain in meaningful contact but without sliding into thath (into hurt or disappointment?)  Something that allows for growth, that is kind, that is logical and fair?

No, no ideas how to rig it to avoid hurt and disappointment. I think it's best to embrace the reality that you likely will experience hurt and disappointment, and then work out a decision you can live with from THAT starting place.  I think that's a more adult view.  Fundamentally, I just don't think you can experience intimacy without fully accepting the risk and the reality of experiencing hurt and disappointment. I don't think intimacy and growth are available w/out embracing some pain and disappointment.  These relationships seem to have a lot of it (hurt and disappointment) but really, discomfort is a part of any intimate relationship and it's a part of growth, too... .sooner or later.  Even if it's that one of you eventually has to bury the other b/c you age and someone dies first.  The more intimate, the closer, the more deep... .the more you risk being hurt.  It will hurt.  That's why so many folks (most of us) say we want intimacy but hedge our bets, constantly... .I want intimacy, I don't want to feel hurt or disappointment.   The closer you are, the more intimate, the more painful the loss when you lose that person (however that loss may transpire).  

I guess you can have a more detached relationship where there is less at stake b/c you are not as close, not as intimate, you stand back a bit and keep your distance but still have a friendly connection.  That's an option. It's not going to be as fulfilling as deep intimacy, but you don't experience deep intimacy w/out risking hurt and disappointment, whether lovers, friends, etc.    

It seems your guy doesn't want a traditional, monogomous relationship.  It sounds like you do.  Only you know if you can make yourself happy in a less traditional arrangement like that.  He has lots of complex reasons for why he is who he is... .but, he's asking for something that sounds unattractive to you from the way you describe it.   You could try it with the frame that you are stretching yourself and tolerating some discomfort for growth... .and be clear that it's the kind of growth you really value and want. Some folks really want to explore love w/out jealousy or fear or the typical painful ego states that go with traditional romantic attachments... .just focus on the love as sort of a spiritual meditation. Someone might feel like the kind of r/s he seems to be suggesting might be a place for them to personally stretch in that way. Knowing at times it would be painful and challenging, but valuing it for their own growth reasons.  That's an individual choice. If it's not an area of growth that has value to you, then... .you might be better served stretching in another area... .like in giving a firm no to something that you know really doesn't suit you. And dealing with the hurt and disappointment that comes with having to say no.

The reality is there is hurt and disappointment no matter what.  It hurts to stay, It hurts to go. It's pretty flippin uncomfortable to  be somewhere in the middle, too.  None of it lasts forever, but it hurts, nonetheless.

You have already been disappointed and hurt. It already happened.

Accept fully who he is, and make wise choices that are fully accepting of who YOU are.  :)on't say yes to anything thinking you will change him.  :)on't agree to anything, no matter how well planned and mapped out, with the thought that you are protected from getting hurt b/c your plan and your agreement this time will protect you from hurt and disappointment. That's magical thinking.    

You get to paint the canvas any way you want... .it is up to you.

But, there is no way to get around the risk of hurt and disappointment. It's part of deep love, deep connection, and having a rich life.  The meaning you make of it is what counts.  

I don't like stupid pain. I don't like self-abandonment pain.  I don't like sticky, controlling, anxious,  resentful, blaming pain.

But if you are really feeling at times ... .hurt and disappointment... .b/c you are out there taking risks and loving and staying open and are growing, that's just  having a rich, interesting, meaningful life.

It seems to me, anyway.

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« Reply #22 on: June 16, 2015, 09:48:34 AM »

MaybeSo, thank you for this beautiful post.  It gets exactly at why I struggle to know what to do with this relationship.

So far (in four years, three years with a lot of information and understanding from this site), I have yet to find a stance that feels right.  NC when it's my decision feels terrible.  This spring when we were talking, he begged me not to end things just because he can't be exactly what or how I want, or do what would really work for me.  It was a ragged begging and it hurt to hear it.

It's fine to say I need to look out for myself, etc., but the truth is, that does not readily dictate cutting off my connection with him.  He matters to me.  Accepting him as he is.  Losing him is a big loss.  Sometimes I think he is doing his best.  Sometimes I think he is not.  So far I have largely left him to figure things out on his own without any comment or input from me other than that the way he does things doesn't work for me, or hurts me.  Now I'm starting to think that it would have been better to stand my ground, hang in there, communicate about the effects of what he does, but not leave entirely.  My choice to leave entirely has been driven by pain and rejection trauma.  When I put my "it's not rejection" BPD comprehension lens on, maybe it's not so hard.  But I can't always keep that lens on.  And anyway, sometimes that feels and looks a lot like enabling and being a crutch, almost preventing him from confronting some things he probably needs to face the fall out from.

And sometimes it feels like just re-conceptualizing a hurtful, withholding dynamic so that I see myself as a volunteer, not a victim ... .and I recognize that to be a feature of abusive relationships.

He often challenges me to be open to change, chaos, how things can develop.  But then I discern that he himself has ruled out growth and change, and he prefers to keep me and us in a tidy comforting reliable box, in the midst of his chaos.  On my strongest days, I feel like I can talk to him about that.  But I also want to just be in the relationship, not constantly indicting it or challenging it or pushing him or being critical.

Yet, just "being" in the relationship is extremely hard because he likes to extract intimate feelings from me on terms that feel unfair, and require boundaries.

I agree with your point that intimacy almost always brings pain, and that alone doesn't necessarily mean we should avoid the connection entirely.  And that we cannot live a rich life of possibilities without some risk.  At the same time, participating in an unhealthy "stuck" pattern is "stupid pain," as you call it, it seems to me.

So what I am looking for is a way to stay connected, risk pain for the benefit I get and the possibility of growth, but not to open myself up to stupid self-abandoning pain.  What can that look like here?  That's exactly what I'm fumbling around for.



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« Reply #23 on: June 16, 2015, 12:59:02 PM »

We all get rejected sometimes.  If it is traumatic, it needs to be worked through, one way or the other.

I had rejection trauma, betrayal trauma, whatever you call it... .by engaging with my person. That is for sure.  Shaking, sweating,  long term wondering if I would ever, ever feel normal again kind of trauma.  

My choice, smart or not, was to keep tapping back into what was traumatizing, until I got close enough to see, that there wasn't really a monster under the bed, after all.  Call it immersion therapy, or whatever.  It's just how I dealt with it.  In the end, he is Just another wounded soul.  Nothing to see here folks, shows over.   Most  of the 'trauma' that came up for me was stuff that got stirred up by him that had to do with childhood injury, a dad that comes and goes,  and he was just re-stimulating that old wound, b/c he is unavailable, too.    He is unavailable. Period.  So was dad.  So I kept tapping into it, with a mind toward growth... .until it wasn't traumatic anymore.

That is NOT necessarily the right move for everyone!  But, it worked for me.   I am SOO over it.  :)oesn't mean I don't value him or vilify him or idealize him.  He is just a person, I learned a lot by engaging with him.  But there is no shaking, sweaty, trauma response anymore.   But it was really, really hard to get there.  I tend to do things the hard way.  It's not for everyone. I still have contact with my person, it's just, not charged anymore.  I know who he is.  He's fine.  I'm fine.  He doesn't offer a life style that suits me, that's all.  And I don't offer what he needs or wants, either.   Period.  But, he attended my moms memorial service a couple months ago, and we keep in touch.  He will no doubt try to hook up in the future when he is feeling empty and lonely... .that's just what he does.  Always looking for a mommy when he's hurting.  I am not available to do that with him anymore, but he will still try I am sure... .it's just what he does.  There's no charge around it for me.  He is seductive, but I've seen it all.  It's not mysterious and deep to me anymore.  I hold the keys to my own happy life, not him.  But oh is he good and painting a pretty picture.

By the way... .I see now, that what felt at the time, for a very long time, as a really unique and deep intimacy between me and him... .wasn't really ALL THAT deep.  When you see the pattern up close for a long time, when you engage in it for a long time, when you allow yourself to hurt from the loss of 'it' b/c you engage in it closely for a long time and keep having to lose it... .you start to see the superficiality of it all.   The intimacy ceiling is pretty low, actually.  I realize now, it wasn't as deep as it felt. It never was. Something important is happening but it's not really about intimacy.  I think it's about the charge of re-enacting trauma, usually childhood trauma originally.   You couldn't have told me that two years ago... .certainly not 8 years ago.  I'm not saying there isn't a connection, there is,  but, when it can only go so far (and it can only go so far b/c of the limits that are there and obvious!) then it's not really all THAT deep.  In my opinion, these hard relationship are not really about the other person at all.  It's about the need to work on trauma that belongs to us.  It's really how you frame it for yourself.  

If you move through this (however you do it)... .you  may find everything about him ends up having much less of a charge around it than it has so far.  That he's just, a person you know/knew.  The charge around it may go away.  The charge around issues related to rejection trauma may go away, too.  It did for me.    

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« Reply #24 on: June 16, 2015, 01:34:09 PM »

By he way... .I don't want to suggest there is never ANY trauma or hurt response anymore, ever.

He was pushing a certain connection again a few months ago... .and he kept at it the way he does... .and I did get triggered.  I was having a hard day anyway... .and it triggered me.    And there was some trauma response... .but it didn't last long.   I recovered quickly.  But I don't want to give the impression it's all just easy breezy.  But it's a whole lot better. 
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« Reply #25 on: June 16, 2015, 11:49:47 PM »

MaybeSo, I can't tell you how grateful I am that you shared this.  I can really understand the progression you're describing.  I am not quite there -- still in the throes of a charged bond.  It still feels I have lost or am losing something important, precious, something that existed or was possible.

I've been in it long enough and been close enough about his patterns, though, to have a growing sense of what you're saying, about how the seemingly deep and transcendent connection is really quite a bit more superficial than it (still) feels to me, and much more so than I once believed.  Much of what used to move me, now seems like a formula, and his praise and recruitment strategies feel a little lame and a little studied by now.  A few times, special lines have been recycled; a few times, he's forgotten whether it was me or someone else who did special thing X with him ... .and yes, the magic is wearing a bit thin.

I can see exactly how it could come to be that the monster is gone from under the bed.  I also really appreciate you mentioning that it isn't all the way and always totally gone, and that the echoes of that other feeling are still there.

The rejection trauma from this episode, which played on earlier traumatic losses and betrayals, true, but somehow dwarfed all the rest, had a really profound effect on me.  For the first year or so, my heart literally felt like it was in a constant vice.  For years, and still sometimes today, I had/have dissociative loss of consciousness at night when I sit down, if I think of him/us and what happened.  The idea that it can and may lose its power is very attractive, honestly.  Being entirely separated from him by my own choice did nothing to dispel that pain, so maybe, immersion therapy (as you described this engagement approach) will. I really hope so at this point.

Until recently, I was legitimately confused, and thought I must be incredibly special to him, really unique, and that he must really love me even though he denied it, because he acted like he did.  He acted like he wanted me.  I no longer can be so confused.  He does act like he wants me -- but that is a thing that he does.  This is what he does.  I need to more deeply accept what I know, as it sounds like you have been doing.

At the same time, there are moments of undoubted real connection.  They've come when he believes I have no agenda or ulterior motive.  He is so overwhelmed with the feeling that others are going to invade or control or overwhelm him some way.  Sometimes, we have been in a place where that is held at bay for a while, and it's been really beautiful.  That's the thing I keep trying to hang onto.  But it doesn't stay like that.  And the lifestyle, as you put it, that occurs around those moments isn't one that works for me.  Like you say.

I'm super grateful for these posts.  They've been very calming, and given me a lot to reflect on.

P&C



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« Reply #26 on: June 17, 2015, 05:56:00 PM »

one more note about your situation.

I really think it is very hard to grasp and hold onto how different you are from him.

I suspect you way overestimate his capacity to have a bonded, intimate relationship. with any woman.  I think you have to really consider how developmentally wounded and handicapped he is. he is seductive. he pushes connection that feels super intimate and deep, but is fleeting and unsustainable. He is not doing any deep work around this. He sounds just like my person. Very very seductive when he needs attention from someone, seductive in every way, willing to do or agree to anything to get you back in the moment. This in itself is so unhealthy. He is showing you not his potential for intimacy, but the woundedness that makes intimacy unbearable.  I really do not think he is acting like a person who has the capacity to be intimate. He is doing what he knows to do to survive. He is not an emotionally healthy person. Just know that. I tell myself now... .when I think about trying to have a r/s get again with my ex... .Maybeso... ."why are you so intent and trying to relate intimately with a person who just can't do that?"  Why is THIS wounded person soo compelling? He cannot be intimate. What am I avoiding by working so hard at intimacy with a person who just cannot do intimacy?

The longer you try to achieve intimacy with someone who can't sustain intimacy, the longer you get to avoid intimacy while looking like all you ever wanted was intimacy.

If you got the intimacy you are working so hard to figure out how to get ( with someone very unlikely to achieve it) you may surprised at your own response... .if you got it.

Striving for intimacy, isn't the experience of intimacy. Experiencing intimacy is always a complex, mixed bag that comes with a jumble of mixed feelings.

when we are always striving for it, strategizing about it... .picking partners that Scream "not available for intimacy"... .we are ourselves avoiding intimacy. 

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« Reply #27 on: June 17, 2015, 08:38:46 PM »

The longer you try to achieve intimacy with someone who can't sustain intimacy, the longer you get to avoid intimacy while looking like all you ever wanted was intimacy.

Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)    Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

The more it's like a game you're trying to win instead of living your life?

The best that you're looking for here is that he meets you in the middle. Sharing real intimacy, pretty consistently, that you can both relax into and count on while making progress together. What serious steps is he making to accomplish that? Because no matter how you paint this, or which angles you approach it, it's going to take both of you to make it work. Again, are they boundaries you're looking for, or a way out of the maze of this?
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« Reply #28 on: June 17, 2015, 10:52:44 PM »

Again, are they boundaries you're looking for, or a way out of the maze of this?

Interesting question.  My impression from some accounts here is that boundaries, sometimes, do provide a way out of the maze of this.  They straighten out some unhealthy tangles in a way that allows us to see better what is going on, and why.

I know I have to have some boundaries.  I cannot just plunge in without regard to what I have 150% certainty will happen again.  If complete disengagement does not feel right (and it doesn't ... .and I have given it the old college try, several times, for long stretches) ... .then, I need some thoughtful, useful, helpful boundaries.  This I know.

I think the thrust of your post and MaybeSo's point, though, is that the boundaries may shed light without making this work better.

I guess, though, inherently, it does work better if we stop asking a situation to yield something that it very likely cannot.
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« Reply #29 on: June 17, 2015, 10:58:00 PM »

one more note about your situation.

I really think it is very hard to grasp and hold onto how different you are from him.

I suspect you way overestimate his capacity to have a bonded, intimate relationship. with any woman.  I think you have to really consider how developmentally wounded and handicapped he is. he is seductive. he pushes connection that feels super intimate and deep, but is fleeting and unsustainable. He is not doing any deep work around this. He sounds just like my person. Very very seductive when he needs attention from someone, seductive in every way, willing to do or agree to anything to get you back in the moment. This in itself is so unhealthy. He is showing you not his potential for intimacy, but the woundedness that makes intimacy unbearable.  I really do not think he is acting like a person who has the capacity to be intimate. He is doing what he knows to do to survive. He is not an emotionally healthy person. Just know that.

This is so insightful.  Yes, I do have a hard time deeply assimilating how impossible anything approaching genuine intimacy is for him.  Perhaps its because he says the words "intimate" and "intimacy" more than anyone I've ever known.  You are exactly right, the seduction, which appears to be all about the great value of our bond and the exceptional closeness, is very deceptive.  It's mostly facsimile closeness, like what you'd get out of a machine if you ordered up "closeness."  Kind of chemical tasting.

He knows he wants and needs it but I don't think he remotely grasps what it is.  Every so often we have touched it (as I assume he has with others) and those moments are almost emotional "no go" zones for him, he can barely think of them.  They're maybe 1% of our relationship. Unfortunately the fact that they have occurred at all is very potent for me, and it is hard for me to accept that very low ceiling is there.
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« Reply #30 on: June 18, 2015, 03:02:26 AM »

Hi Patient,

What kind of relationship are you looking to have with him? A lifelong buddy-type of friendship or a friendship that's secretly hoping for a lifelong romantic commitment? The latter has the potential of causing you inner conflicts and your boundaries will become much harder to enforce... .because a part of you won't want to.

Can you see yourself being best friends with him while he sees other women, as long as you aren't intimate with him?

Yet, just "being" in the relationship is extremely hard because he likes to extract intimate feelings from me on terms that feel unfair, and require boundaries.

What are the intimate feelings? Are we talking sexual, spiritual, something else?

What are the terms that feel unfair?
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« Reply #31 on: June 18, 2015, 04:17:19 AM »

Hi Patient,

What kind of relationship are you looking to have with him? A lifelong buddy-type of friendship or a friendship that's secretly hoping for a lifelong romantic commitment? The latter has the potential of causing you inner conflicts and your boundaries will become much harder to enforce... .because a part of you won't want to.

Can you see yourself being best friends with him while he sees other women, as long as you aren't intimate with him?

No, definitely not.  I am not going to be his best friend looking on while he declares love for and prioritizes other women.  Why not? Well, he blew into my life, declared a passionate romantic and sexual love for me, staked a big claim, and then utterly failed to take responsibility for that and has made nearly no effort to make good on those commitments.  It rips my guts out watching him do the same with other women.  It plays on a rejection track in my head that does a ton of damage.  I absolutely will not do that.  I am not strong or impervious enough to deflect all the rejection and betrayal trauma that flows from it.

Yet, just "being" in the relationship is extremely hard because he likes to extract intimate feelings from me on terms that feel unfair, and require boundaries.

What are the intimate feelings? Are we talking sexual, spiritual, something else?

What are the terms that feel unfair?

It feels both unfair and dishonest.  I feel like he takes all the intimate connection you would have with a spouse, but gives no acknowledgement of what he's doing or of the significance of the relationship. It feels like there is a fundamental dishonesty where he is doing one thing with me but saying he's doing something else, which is a device to evade responsibility and risk.

What are the intimate feelings?  Our thing without a name (a member who used to post here called it an "unship" is patently, palpably romantic.  My sense is that he is constantly running through a subconscious loop where he feel attracted to me, then imposes a mental line, then attributes to me the desire to cross that line when, in most instances, it comes from him, and then rejects me and my "incursion" and feels a lot of relief.  My love for him becomes a sort of insurance policy that he can touch when it makes him feel better but he never has to play the same role for me.

I wrote him at one point that I'd realized that this was more special to me than it was to him, and his answer was "you're not wrong but you're not right."  It is, but it isn't.  In those moments when he thinks I don't want him romantically, his romantic fires come roaring back (according to what he said this spring in our series of calls).  But the moment he thinks I want him, the curtain comes down.  The feelings coming from his are not not romantic, is sort of the best I can do, but he can only feel them when he feels safe from it coming true.



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« Reply #32 on: June 18, 2015, 05:01:28 AM »

I feel like he takes all the intimate connection you would have with a spouse, but gives no acknowledgement of what he's doing or of the significance of the relationship.

He can't take what you're not willing to offer.  Spouse intimacy?
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« Reply #33 on: June 18, 2015, 07:15:14 AM »

Thanks for clarifying. Yuck, I'm so sorry. I've dealt with the same "have his cake and eat it too" man - always wanting what he can't have - the thrill of the chase, the boredom once he's caught me. It's all part of the push/pull. On again/off again, friends w/benefits, friends only, real r/s again... .His push/pull unfortunately pushed and pulled my values all over the place, and my boundaries went right out the window.

This was my concern for you. Because I did this for years. It was madness.

I had wanted him in my life, but at what cost? I felt sad, used and confused. What I wanted within my reach but I could never grasp it. So the last time my uBPDbf pulled the "we're just friends" card when we were clearly more, I told him I don't sleep with my friends. And I stopped. Then came his ugly texts, then his flirty texts and booty call attempts, then his attempts to make me jealous, then inviting me to lunch, hugs that lingered too long which I stopped, then his angry calls or ugly texts again... .I wasn't taking any of the bait. I acted like an appropriate "friend" and nothing more. He realized he didn't want that anymore. I told him he pushed me away, but I'm still here. I'll be your friend til the end. How much of me you get depends on you. He finally stopped that nonsense and we're together now.

I think this is called an extinction burst. One day, he finally opened up... .confessed some weird explanation about the FWB thing... .that he was really "screwed up" and felt I deserved better... .that he wanted me to move on, find someone better, but also never wanted to lose me. BPD logic? That being "friends" to him meant I'd always be in his life, no matter what since relationships don't always last... .but that he might as well sleep with me until I found someone better... .more BPD logic? I told him no it doesn't work that way. Not for me. Not anymore. Yes, you are one hot mess... .but I love you. Now knock it off.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

I guess I needed to pull back physically and emotionally so I could treat him as I would any other friend, at last protecting myself and my values. I needed to drop the fear of losing him. I needed to accept our r/s had changed and that one or both of us might date someone else. I had to visualize that. None of it was easy, but all of it was necessary. So my boundary was to cut off the intimacy I feel only belongs inside a romantic r/s... .What would yours look like?
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« Reply #34 on: June 18, 2015, 09:15:55 AM »

I feel like he takes all the intimate connection you would have with a spouse, but gives no acknowledgement of what he's doing or of the significance of the relationship.

He can't take what you're not willing to offer.  Spouse intimacy?

Whence this thread. I was completely gone for a long time because I realized the above dynamic and chose to change what I offered, and he cut me out. He later made a compelling plea to not through our whole r/ship away just because he struggles with the idea of being my romantic partner. For a variety of reasons I feel it may be worth trying some connection, but as MaybeSo said, he is very seductive and I need some ideas about how to "not offer" the spousal intimacy I feel he unfairly takes when I enter this with no sense of limits.
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« Reply #35 on: June 18, 2015, 09:48:41 AM »

Thanks for clarifying. Yuck, I'm so sorry. I've dealt with the same "have his cake and eat it too" man - always wanting what he can't have - the thrill of the chase, the boredom once he's caught me. It's all part of the push/pull. On again/off again, friends w/benefits, friends only, real r/s again... .His push/pull unfortunately pushed and pulled my values all over the place, and my boundaries went right out the window.

This was my concern for you. Because I did this for years. It was madness.

I had wanted him in my life, but at what cost? I felt sad, used and confused. What I wanted within my reach but I could never grasp it. So the last time my uBPDbf pulled the "we're just friends" card when we were clearly more, I told him I don't sleep with my friends. And I stopped. Then came his ugly texts, then his flirty texts and booty call attempts, then his attempts to make me jealous, then inviting me to lunch, hugs that lingered too long which I stopped, then his angry calls or ugly texts again... .I wasn't taking any of the bait. I acted like an appropriate "friend" and nothing more. He realized he didn't want that anymore. I told him he pushed me away, but I'm still here. I'll be your friend til the end. How much of me you get depends on you. He finally stopped that nonsense and we're together now.

I think this is called an extinction burst. One day, he finally opened up... .confessed some weird explanation about the FWB thing... .that he was really "screwed up" and felt I deserved better... .that he wanted me to move on, find someone better, but also never wanted to lose me. BPD logic? That being "friends" to him meant I'd always be in his life, no matter what since relationships don't always last... .but that he might as well sleep with me until I found someone better... .more BPD logic? I told him no it doesn't work that way. Not for me. Not anymore. Yes, you are one hot mess... .but I love you. Now knock it off.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

I guess I needed to pull back physically and emotionally so I could treat him as I would any other friend, at last protecting myself and my values. I needed to drop the fear of losing him. I needed to accept our r/s had changed and that one or both of us might date someone else. I had to visualize that. None of it was easy, but all of it was necessary. So my boundary was to cut off the intimacy I feel only belongs inside a romantic r/s... .What would yours look like?

That makes a lot of sense.  When I tried that 18 months ago, he was seeing someone else, and cut me off entirely. He was really mad and really hurt.  When he reached out a bit later, I was warm but told him I didn't want to see him or be in regular communication unless something had changed.  He didn't communicate again for many months.  I think the difference btwn what I did (and what my BPD guy did) and your r/ship, Jessica, is that you confronted the "friends" thing immediately with appropriate limits.  When he first used it with me, we weren't actually having sex (we'd just gotten back in touch) and I thought "yes, right, we're friends, we're seeing what this is, no worries."  But I didn't realize he was putting a safe ceiling on our thing, sort of in order to make intimacy possible.  So when the r/ship proceeded from there to be very intimate-feeling, deep-feeling, and (weirdly) exclusive, I assumed he saw it as I did--meaning a lot more.  Thus when I realized he was seeing someone else it felt like a big actual betrayal, even if technically, no rules were broken.

Anyway, when I had to deal with the implications of the "friends" limit, it was more of an apocalyptic end.  Whereas you really dealt with it "in place," without a huge reaction, and counter-reaction.  That's what I'm seeking now -- to deal with this in place, put limits that match what he says, and still maintain a warm, not bitter contact.  I wish I'd been much clearer much earlier that if the limit is "friends" you don't get that kind of intimate access to me.  I sent a mixed signal for a long time that I would participate in that kind of unacknowledged partnership.
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« Reply #36 on: June 18, 2015, 10:07:38 AM »

Excerpt
It feels both unfair and dishonest.  I feel like he takes all the intimate connection you would have with a spouse, but gives no acknowledgement of what he's doing or of the significance of the relationship.

It feels this way because that is exactly what he is offering,  he is using romantic attachments and depends on them as regulatory objects.  He is not showing up for a real, mutual, adult relationship.  This is what you need to get.  He is using you.  He is using women.  He is USING.  Like a drug addict "uses".  That doesn't make him a bad person.  It makes him a wounded person who has found a way to self-regulate by using romantic attachments or intense highly mirroring connections. Some would call it 'supply'. I use the language of attachment trauma.  But have no doubt, he is wounded.  He can seduce and romance in a way that feels like a peak experience, and it probably is.  Some may look back on expereinces with our guys and think... .wow, that was the best love affair I ever had... .and leave it at that.   And, that isn't such a bad thing... .it's bad when it's with a woman who really expects him to do more than that, and keeps expecting it.   Then it becomes very very painful.  It feels unfair b/c it is.  No one wants to be used.  If you engage with him expecting him to NOT do that, to not have the limit or ceiling that he has... .you will always be hurt because you are not taking care of yourself.  These are wounded people.  They will make promises they can't keep... .they will dance and dance hard for what they need.  :)on't make that about love.  See it as a frightened child that needs an attachment object to not feel alone in the dark... .they feel not real without it.  :)on't underestimate the desperation that drives the addiction. But don't romantisize it, either.   This isn't about us, P&C.  

I chose to engage with my partner with more and more clarity about what he really was doing.  What his wound was, what he does to manage it, the way he 'uses' women.  It doesn't make him a bad person.  It just makes him NOT available for an adult relationship, he is using to regulate more the way an infant would, but he's a grown man and very seductive.  YOU MUST SEE THAT.  If you refuse to see that, because it hurts too much... .then you will continue to be traumatised b/c you are unwilling to take care of yourself.  You have to really dig deep P&C, and do the hard work of grieving your losses.  The loss is... .he is not who you thought he was... .a grown man who may be the love of your life and will show up like securely attached person and do a reciprocal relationship with you.  It does hurt him when you refuse to do this with him b/c you are refusing to be his supply.  He needs more people in his life that will interact with him authentically, which means refusing to be his supply.  But there are too many women out there willing to be supply.   This could mean NC, it's up to you.   I am still in some contact b/c I SEE who my person is, the good, the bad, and the ugly... .and there is still love there.  I just don't project romantic fantasies onto him anymore.  He is not my knight in shining armour, never was.  That doesn't exist anyway.   He has shown me he is not a stable person in a relationship.  Your guy has shown you that, too.  It's not personal to you or me... .these are just two guys who can't be in a stable, traditional relationship. But they need supply.  They are good at it.  They need superficial, romantic, attachment... .once it taps into something intimate, they are not available, they will detach.  It would take huge effort for them to change... .huge effort.

I actually stayed and witnessed up-close and personal, my person pursuing and declaring great love to other women. Yes it is hurtful.  I also saw the cookie cutter aspect of it.  The same idealization.  The same honeyed words.  The same intensity and obssession for a short time.  Then he leaves them, too.  It was actually exactly what I needed to see.  He didn't behave any differently with the other gals, than he did with me.  So what if he finds someone eventually who he is willing to finally settle down with and do the work and get better.  It's still more about him, than her.  I hope he does!  But I'm not going to play his game anymore.  He knows that.  I don't hate him.  But I see him.  He see's some of my crap, too.  I probably am the healthiest r/s he has had in his life, thus far.  But I'm not WITH him and playing the "we are going to live happily ever after game" with him, anymore.  

This isn't about rejection.  It's about growing up.  You can be with him all you like, in any capacity you can tolerate.  But he is who he is.  This is your best boundary, P&C, to see him for who he really is, all of it.   No projections. No fantasy of resolution.  That is what you need to work on, I think.  
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« Reply #37 on: June 19, 2015, 09:37:37 AM »

MaybeSo, thank you yet again.  This is tremendously helpful.  That is the work I began when I tried to re-arrange our r/s 18 months ago when I realized the pattern of him being so close to me and yet seeking intimate r/ships with other women was continuing.  But our recent discussions have confused me about what could be good and what might be possible.  So your reminder that I really do know that there is this very low ceiling, and that I am not and am not going to be an exception, is very timely.

We are, for the first time, in "authentic relationship" land.  There is finally an honest understanding between us of what he does.  What I can't quite figure out concretely is what the implications of that are for how we relate and what we do with one another.  Jessica84's point, though, that I need to remove the intimate access that doesn't belong in an arrangement where he is not my open or tacit partner in an exclusive or even an open relationship (since I don't want to sign on for that), is very well taken.  I think in some sense, WHAT limits I settle on is less important than that there ARE limits that we can both see, that flow from the realization of what this relationship really is, and what it is not.

And MS, I really take your point that the ultimate "boundary" is being truthful with myself about what is likely to happen here and what he does, and not sliding into a "resolution fantasy."  I know a lot about what he does by now.  Each time we reunite it is with some new ingredients and "realizations" on both of our parts, and it is tempting to think that might make a difference.  This last time he had a very compelling story of the new framework he is applying to relationships and how he would never do again what he did before that hurt me.  But he still had the instinct to keep that ceiling very low, and to draw a line and push me out when we approached the ceiling.  The core instincts appear unchanged.  You're right.

Thank you so much.
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« Reply #38 on: June 19, 2015, 11:09:48 AM »

First, I am sorry if I offered confusing posts/comments... .I may be able to connect the dots if you let me know exactly where it got disjointed.

And we PM'd but I will post on this thread my final comments... .

You know... .I am a big advocate that all this stuff is mostly about attachment disorders and trauma, and no one "tries" to have an attachment disorder or trauma, so I try to address these issues with compassion for that reality.  And also, that our own attachment issues "hook" us into these sticky relationships and we have to own our  own stuff.

But, can I just say... .

He is lucky, and maybe not even really deserving, to have a bright woman like you... .so invested and embroiled in solving the mystery of HIM and his issues and so willing to work so hard to try  to maintain a connection with him despite his obvious attachment challenges.

At face value sometimes... .it really does ANGER me  how flipping BRILLIANT, BRILLIANT these folks (the men we are talking about, not a generic group)  are at so masterfully stimulating another person's attachment system with a never ending very seductive and  enticing bread crumb trail of mating gestures and mating cues that constantly promise or hints at promises of deep intimacy and deep connection... .when in the end you still have a person with a huge attachment disorder... .that just CANNOT STAY or BE still or be intimate with another person to save their own life.    

Yes, remove the intimate access that does not belong in a non intimate relationship.  Sounds good. Sounds logical. Ya... .do that!

But... .ummm,  it's a little like removing the olive oil from the pasta after it's already been tossed in together.  When you find a way to do that, please let me know.

He is good at this, folks.   He is good at engaging a person's attachment system. That's his thing.  Come on now... .he is really really good at this, and we do have attachment systems and they do respond to mating cues from an primary attachment figure.  You can't outsmart this.   He is after a certain kind of experience. And so are we, because we are human.

Eyes wide open.  I'm not saying there isn't the potential for your own personal growth here.  If you stay honest with yourself, there is potential for growth.  Yours, not his.  We can't even begin to imagine or assume he will grow from doing what he does yet again.  :)on't take risks based on what you think might happen for HIM... .concentrate on what YOU need to learn.  And... .You won't  be able to rig a pain free ride here.  It always has some pain. At least that has been my experience.  Engaging with a person you love that is disordered or has trauma IS painful, it should be painful, it's a crying shame... .even if you take the romantic angst out of it.  

There is no pain-free way to do this.  That has been my experience anyway.  I think I have grown from some of the pain, but, as I said... .I tend to do things he hard way,  I learn by doing.  Ouch.  But I'm still okay!





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« Reply #39 on: June 20, 2015, 07:21:25 AM »

P&C, it was important for me (and him!), to STOP talking about our "relationship" and START being present, emotionally available and approachable in it.  It's been super important and insightful in recognizing WHO I BECOME while in a close romantic relationship.  I tend to be needy, clingy, anxious, concerned, over-analytical, closed off, afraid when I sense a hint of change.  Those are my negative attributes that need to be curtailed.  They have nothing to do with him.

Being emotionally available doesn't mean "you're the love of my life, why why why" type of talky stuff.

Late yesterday afternoon we were watching a baby nuthatch learning to fly.  It flew into the window and became stunned.  I said, "I feel so sad and worried about the poor little thing, aw... ."; that was my experience.   Bf looked on his phone for answers on what to do in a situation like this; his experience.  We watched, waited, marveled and got excited as the baby nuthatch made improvements and eventually flew off!  Then we went out to eat.

To me, that is emotional connection and closeness.  It has nothing to do with a "low ceiling" or threshold.

Be who you are and let him be him.   







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« Reply #40 on: June 20, 2015, 09:33:56 AM »

Phoebe, I did that. For a long time. What my guy did with that was: he moved to another city, refused to talk to me for 10 weeks when I gave the faintest hint that that might have a negative impact on our relationship (I asked why he was suddenly making this change, and said "something will be lost," and didn't hear from him for 10 weeks ... .Despite that he had asked me never to self-censor to avoid his bad feelings). I then kept showing up and entered a new period of not talking about our relationship. It was amazing. I could write the book on being emotionally available and open. What he did with that was start a serious r/ship with another woman, but still act like for all the world like I was his main person in the daily emails he sent me. We were planning a trip together. Meanwhile he was declaring passionate love to another woman and doing with her all the things he and I do that I thought were special and unique to us. And not telling me (I learned of this by a fluke--next time I would certainly not know).

Why I say it's a low ceiling is that no matter how close we became and how romantic the feeling, whenever he did things that were hurtful to me and to the r/ship, and I tried to raise them, I got clobbered with "this is just a friendship." It wasn't "just a friendship" as he eventually conceded this spring, and as I knew all along, but he uses that label to make sure I have no expectation of fidelity, of him sustaining anything with me. In an intimate r/ship, that is a low ceiling. I hear you that talking about a r/ship is not the same as having one. I would say I erred on the extreme end of never talking to him about what we were doing, just being in it and participating and being open (his favorite word besides intimate). We only were talking about the nature and terms of our r/ship this spring because his hurtful choices caused me to pull away and I was pretty much done, and he wanted back in, and we were trying to see if there is any point in continuing.

I love your approach. I used it. Unlike your BF, my guy took advantage of my openness and availability to arrange a lifestyle that really hurts me. If I go back into that with openness and no limits, knowing what he does, haven't I done this to myself this time?

I wish he were not someone who would develop a passionate love r/ship and keep me on the side sort of faking me out about what's going on, but he is. Knowing that, how can I just re-enter our r/ship with no limits and giving him the emotional access he had to me before? Believe me, that is tempting. And it is what he wants. I'm good at it. He just takes terrible advantage of it. Last time to be fair to him, I hadn't been explicit about what would hurt me, and my needs and expectations. This time I feel I have to be--otherwise he will lose me again without knowing exactly why (this is his critique of how I handled our last break--never told him what was wrong in time for him to fix it).

I'm looking for a way to still be me, and us, when we are together (in person, phone, letter), so, not limiting the quality of our thing together; but not plunging back into a de facto unacknowledged primary r/ship that he will then supplement with other love affairs. How to manage both requires some creative ideas.

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« Reply #41 on: June 20, 2015, 10:10:08 AM »

First, I am sorry if I offered confusing posts/comments... .I may be able to connect the dots if you let me know exactly where it got disjointed.

No, sorry!  I meant that my last few engagements with the BPD guy in my life have been confusing.  Which is actually what you are getting at in your last post.  It seems so sincere.  He pours out things that are new and different and (it feels, anyway) cannot possibly be offered to multiple women.  My gut says we have a special connection.  My mind has a lot of information screaming that it is NOT special.  Ergo: confusing.  And hard (at least for me) to dismiss out of hand.  When I do turn away from his overtures like this, I end up feeling huge doubt, wondering if I precluded growth, rebuffed a real chance for it to be different.  Which is why this other approach -- staying in some kind of connection and actually, clearly, seeing it for what it is, let it be what it is -- may work best for me.

How you're handling it is brave, MS.  I agree, caring about people and trying to figure things out carries a risk of pain and hurt.  Trying to make those good risks rather than stupid pain ... .that's where I am right now.

Thanks for saying that it's not easy to avoid confusion with these men, and not easy to find a good path.  I don't want to be manipulated and he does manipulate.  It's hard to find the core truth in all the manipulation.  I don't want to be an idiot who reads too much into his platitudes, which I have been in the past.  At the same time there are moments of real integrity in our relationship on both of our parts.  It's been hard for me to discern what it is and what it can be.  I think I have more clarity now.

Thanks also for saying he is lucky.  I agree Smiling (click to insert in post) I don't think he processes what we have and what we do as "love."  Not romantic love.  It's a great shame because I think it's what he is actually searching for.  But if he is convinced otherwise, that IS a low ceiling.
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MaybeSo
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« Reply #42 on: June 20, 2015, 06:04:09 PM »

123phobe,

Excerpt
Be who you are and let him be him.



I could be wrong, but I strongly suspect that the person I have known and the person P&C is talking about, are quite a bit different in presentation than your partner.  Some of us on this board have seemed to engage with men or women who are really super good at high intensity seduction but can never ever stay put in a relationship with one person despite best attempts even on the part of both people to try. When I say seduction, I'm not talking about just sexual seduction.  I mean spiritually, intellectually, logistically, narratively, biographically... .this is your soulmate... .seduction.   That's the presentation.  

The adaptive strategy they have found is to utilize high intensity but ultimatley superficial connections with a short shelf-life as a way to self-regulate.  I have spoken to my person, and he has many times admitted that he does this.  For many folks on this board, affairs and addiction isn't an issue. For many it is.

The folks we speak about on this very large board have a wide variety of presentations.

In my case, I am lamenting that there is a low ceiling for intimacy even though the seductive quality of the interaction can FEEL as though something really intimate  and deep is going on.  That's not to say there is NO intimacy or connection at all.  There also may be short moments where we dive into truly deep intimacy and truth telling is ventured and the experience is real... .but then everything  gets shot back up to the surface right away where it's safe and where it gets dissociated, like in never really happened.

There is an addictive process going on, hence the constant search for 'the perfect one' and that necessarily prevents normal, developmentally appropriate, stable intimacy.  That's just what happens when an active addiction is present.

Excerpt
What he did with that was start a serious r/ship with another woman, but still act like for all the world like I was his main person in the daily emails he sent me.

Bingo, I could have written that sentence myself.  I gave my partner all the freedom and lack of 'analysis' he wanted... .and it was only then that he moved from having emotional affairs to actually sleeping with another woman while leaving me in the dark for weeks.  Ouch.  This is just what he does.  It's not because I talked too much, though I arguably lean anxious especially under these circumstances. But that’s not why he does what he does.  His attachment strategies where there long before I came along. Indeed, the more intimacy available between us eg., the longer we knew each other and as a byproduct could see into each other… the more symptomatic he got. That makes sense too, if you understand disorganized attachment.

The borderline personality organization lacks the capacity for internal self-regulation. In order to maintain a regulated emotional and psychological state, the borderline personality structure relies entirely on the external regulatory support provided by the fused psychological state with the attachment figure. However, perfect and continual psychological fusion with the attachment figure is neither healthy nor possible. Normal range and healthy relationships involve reciprocal exchanges between separate developmentally healthy relationship experiences. (Kohut, 1971; Tronick, 2003). Within healthy relationships, the two relationship partners seek to maintain a more or less coordinated psychological state…with minor “breach and repair” sequences…-Childress, Foundations-An Attachment-Based Model of Parental Alientation, 2015.

He needs a certain kind of  symbiotic interaction to stay regulated.  No one can do it perfect enough all the time for him. So he moves to the next and the next high intensity experience b/c that's the symbiotic connection he is looking for because he stays feeling okay.  There are 2 times in our life where we experience intense symbiosis. 1- In the mother-child diad in infancy, and 2-when we are falling in love during courtship.  It is not sustainable, we are wired to move on to the next developmental level and the intimacy that comes when we give up the fantasy of symbiosis in exchange for a 'real' relationship... .warts and all, that no longer relies on symbiotic fusion.  My partner cannot do that. The loss of symbiotic fusion is always a bit depressing for everyone... .but for some, it leads to massive dysregulation and crushing abandonment depression. So, he leaves and finds another woman to fall in love with again, which regulates him and keeps him from crashing.  

I like your story of how you and your partner rescued the baby bird together.  I am happy for you that you and your person have established stability enough for intimacy to grow and be present.  I will assume there is not active addictive process going on for either one of you for that to happen, and that is wonderful. It's the kind of success story we love to hear.    

But it's isn't always the case for everyone.   :'(
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« Reply #43 on: June 22, 2015, 08:06:59 AM »

MaybeSo,  I respect your viewpoints and look forward to reading them!  There have been many times, I've wondered what you might do or say in a particular situation and have hoped you'd chime into certain threads to offer some perspective.

His attachment strategies where there long before I came along.

Absolutely.  All of ours were.  So, upon realizing this, I decided (chose) to look into my own.  Something rang true when I read "When you point one finger, there are three pointing back at you".  My attachment strategies can be pretty far out, too, so this is where I put my focus.  Not so much from an outside source anymore (clinical view), but from my own thought processes, the feelings that arise and what I feel compelled to say and do in light of these things.

Indeed, the more intimacy available between us eg., the longer we knew each other and as a byproduct could see into each other… the more symptomatic he got. That makes sense too, if you understand disorganized attachment.

I guess I don't understand disorganized attachment to the extent that you do.  I don't even want to where he's concerned!  I don't want to see into him, I want to be with him, I enjoy being with him, I love him.

I've mentioned a few times around here that I believe shared values have a lot to do with a successful relationship. 

He is lucky, and maybe not even really deserving, to have a bright woman like you... .so invested and embroiled in solving the mystery of HIM and his issues and so willing to work so hard to try  to maintain a connection with him despite his obvious attachment challenges.

This is not meant as a slam against you or P&C... .  that I would in no way feel "lucky" to have my significant other studying me, searching for ways to maintain a connection to me.  I'm pretty sure it would come across feeling inauthentic and disingenuous, like there is something definitely missing = him.

Thanks also for saying he is lucky.  I agree Smiling (click to insert in post) I don't think he processes what we have and what we do as "love."  Not romantic love. 

Is it?

The folks we speak about on this very large board have a wide variety of presentations.

I get that our guys are all different and will show up in different ways.  I can't help but think though, Wow, but here we all are.  On a very large board that has taken the time and the heart(!) to provide information and methods for dealing with all this.  A board for us!

There is hope!  I am so grateful  

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« Reply #44 on: June 22, 2015, 09:15:14 AM »

Hi Phoebe ... . 

For what it's worth, I bring my studying & processing here ... .I don't display that IN my relationship, when I have one, with this guy wBPD.  Literally the ONLY times we have talked about our relationship since we reconnected after the initial breakup, were when he wanted to discuss getting back together; when he impulsively decided to change plans and actually move to a new city (after telling me he was planning on coming back to the city where we lived, after prolonged traveling) & I asked very lightly why he was making that move, given the likely impact on his important relationships (a negative impact that has apparently come true in spades and which he now regrets -- I have said nothing about how I predicted this, but my point is, my prediction about the impact was accurate); and when I needed to step back because he was having a passionate affair with another woman while maintaining and indeed trying to expand an intimate connection with me.  And then when he asked to be back in touch this spring after many months of NC.

In our actual relationship -- not the moments when we are discussing whether to have one -- we do zero of this.  Nor is it filled with effort or a sense that I am managing him or the connection, because I'm not.  I think you'd find that your approach to day to day interaction with your guy is very similar to mine.  I have zero agenda.  I don't need him to do anything for me or be anyone in particular to me.  I love being with him, for itself.  He knows that and I think that is why he consistently seeks out time with and connection to me.  I'm super easy for him to be with.  I'm smother-free.

And I think the point MaybeSo is making, is that with this guy in my life, that has NOT translated into him settling over time into a stance of greater comfort with our intimate connection.  Instead, it's the opposite.  As he came to trust me more, his push episodes/mechanisms got more and more wildly at odds with a sustainable monogamous intimate relationship.  It's not something I can affect with my approach.  My approach is very, very open.  I wasn't messing with him, his life or his mind.  I just like him.  It didn't make the relationship become viable.  He wants to return to that territory now -- and I understand why, it must be super pleasant for him when I engage him like that.  But he didn't take care of that.  Not remotely.  In fact he shamed my affection for him whenever there was the slightest hint that that might be expected to affect any of his decisions.
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« Reply #45 on: June 23, 2015, 04:33:17 AM »

I think we are all saying the same thing, but from different perspectives.

In deed, my comments on this thread in some ways would be appropos of the Undecided or Leaving board, but it ended up here b/c of the nature of the post.

There is no doubt in my mind that I have had moments of connection and intimacy with the person who  I have known for over 8 years now, that appears to have symptoms of BPD.  It is also true that there is at times a very superficial quality to the charm/seduction aspect.  It's not all one or the other... .there have been both.

I have made many mistakes along my journey... .I am in no way without flaws in my relational ability and I have pretty good insight into my attachment style and it's weak points.  Having 'studied' not just my partner, but attachment and personality and trauma professionally and in working with adults and children in this area every day... .there are some research based understandings that I have found helpful.

I, too, have many posts describing the good points, good qualities, and joyful and enriching shared times in my relationship. I have many fond memories and many significant insights gleaned from knowing and being an important part of this person's life.  I have had good times with him.  We have accomplished things together.  I pray he finds peace, and I support him in his growth, regardless.   I also see and work with personality disorders in my profession, he knows this of course. He didn't have to choose a woman to be with for 8 years with expertise in and interest in this field... .I think he chose me for his own reasons.   He may have not enjoyed some moments of scrutiny that came with it... .but hey, no one's perfect.  You dance with the one you brung.  In all seriousness my sharing of anything clinical backed-off years ago as I understood that of course, no one wants to be labeled.

In P&Cs case, and many others on this board, the constant need to find 'the one' is of course very destructive and damaging to any relationship.  It's very very difficult if not impossible to sustain intimacy if there is no foundation of basic trust.  What ever level of intimacy is there... .is continually damaged and interrupted.  The bargain is always,  be the perfect regulatory object... then you can trust me... .if you keep me happy (regulated).  But there is no such thing as the perfect regulatory object. I tried.  :)idn't work.  I stopped trying so hard... .and I got better at taking care of myself, and he kept looking for the perfect one.  And still is.  

So, there is never any foundation of trust with which to build.  I have followed P&Cs story for a long time, it always had a lot of similarities.  Again, this is not true for all folks on this board.  I again am reminded of Steph... .who really was the first one this board to really inspire my close examination of my own codependent traits and anxious leanings that did not cause my partner's problems... .but certainly didn't help our interactions.  The self examination and work I have done on ME, has been immeasurably beneficial.  It helped me in my relationship, it helped me personally, it helped professionally.  The 'crazy' drama-trauma stuff between me and him stopped years ago.  To a large degree, b/c of the skills I learned on this board.  I have heard him tell me very painful things... .like he has slept with another woman... .and we discuss it quietly... .sadly.  No circular arguments. No fireworks.

Just him being him and me being me. And both of us crying as I had to say goodbye to him yet again.  No one was analyzing anything. We were just being in another moment of suffering together.

So, after all these years... .still... .he becomes horribly dysregulated and leaves to find the next perfect one as his number one way to treat his pain. Steph's husband never did that... .he would get horribly depressed, horribly dyregulated, ... end up in the ER, the whole gamut.  But, he wasn't leaving her every 6 to 24 months to find 'the one'.  That just wan't his presentation, that just wasn't the adaptation he used to self-medicate.  

If I am pointing a finger or blaming... .I blame childhood trauma, intergenerational trauma, sexual abuse, emotional abuse and neglect and all the damage it does to children and families.   In many ways... .I am amazed at the myriad of ways children in even the worst of circumstances grow and adapt and finds a way to survive AT ALL.  There are much worse things a person could do as a survival adaptation... .than to be on a constant journey to find 'the one great love' of their lives.  Sure, it hurts the individual who loves him and is led to imagine and plan a life together as partners, and is led to believe they will be growing old together, watching our children grow and sharing a life together.   Of course it hurts to let go of that.  It hurts him, too.   Of course it does.  But, I don't harbor ill will toward him at all.  I do not like some of the things he does, I don't like that he often manipulates and lies to sustain his attachment figures to him.  I  really don't like that behavior... .in the most non clinical of terms... .it sucks.   It's not cool.  He should continue to work as hard as he can to not have to lie or manipulate to get his needs met.  He should never stop trying to get better, nor should I.   He should do it for himself and for the people who love him.  He should continue to work hard so that he can be at peace.  I do not hate him or harbor ill will toward him.   I do harbor ill will toward this illness.  No doubt about it.

There are worse things a person could do than to be on a life long quest to find 'the one'.  No one would be happier for him than me if he actually finds it.
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