Need boundary ideas

[patientandclear]

Hello Staying ... .

Not too many people around here will remember my posts from a couple years back.  The thumbnail is that my uBPD exbf and I had a protracted (15 month) intimate friendship with romantic overtones which he explicitly disavowed as romantic (this was after nearly a year of NC after he ended our love affair for reasons that were and remain murky.  He now says he doesn't know why).  I reconnected with him as a friend, intending it to be a friendship -- without ulterior motives.  But our time together was great, we developed the kind of connection you have with a partner, and it became more complicated emotionally for me and, I think, also for him.

Then he suddenly moved to another city.  We had some tension around that, seemed to work through it, and for a little while, it felt we were closer than ever.  I visited, he visited.  But then it became clear he was pursuing relationships with other women (not that he told me this, I just figured it out).  That was painful for me, I felt I had to step back from our daily intimate communication, which upset him, and he basically told me to have a nice life, but maybe he'd look me up somewhere down the road.

A few months later he did make efforts to reunite.  His romance had imploded (again, just something I could figure out from other sources, he did not tell me).  I told him I thought we should not see each other or be in regular communication unless something had changed.  No response for many months.  He finally got back in touch saying, basically, he would do anything I needed so he could have me back in his life.  We had a series of conversations that I didn't handle very well, in which I explained I couldn't be his "friend" anymore, it would need to be acknowledged as more.  He initially sounded willing to do that. I was leery of him just agreeing to this as the "price" of my presence in his life, thought he could come to resent it, but we never resolved that, because pretty quickly, he had a negative reaction to something I said, and all of a sudden we were back to being "friends."  I said I couldn't do that, and would need to say goodbye.  He was terribly upset.  I got mad at him for the only time in our entire 4 year saga, saying I couldn't forgive that he'd gotten back in touch with the premise that things would be different, only to end up offering me the same deal I'd already said I couldn't manage.

Several months of silence passed, and I realized I have had a hard time employing boundaries in this relationship without exiting.  I actually have been pretty firm about my own boundaries but it's nearly always along the lines of "if you can't do X I've got to go."  I enforce the boundaries by being gone.  (So has he, but this post is about my choices and making different ones.)

I am now back in touch with him and am trying to articulate and maintain a boundary without exiting the connection entirely.  But honestly, I am really struggling with what a boundary IS in this situation.  My whole problem with what we do is that he desires deep intimate access to me, but also wants it to have no name, no obligation, no commitment, no need to negotiate its terms if he wants to leave or see someone else.  That does not work for me.  I've now done a decent job of explaining all that, and so far, he is unable or unwilling to do the intimate relationship on terms that work for me.  I am trying not to entirely cut off the connection, to stay in place and set limits or boundaries that are appropriate to the terms he IS willing to engage on.

What I'm struggling with is what that can look like.  He would like daily contact.  He would like something that looks and feels like a long distance partnership except no one says words of love (and he can see others).  I need it to be something other than that.  But artificially reducing that (we'll only write two days a week ... .only engage on superficial subjects ... .make communications half as involved as they would be otherwise ... .) don't seem to hit the mark at all.

What I'd like to do is hang onto the intimate, deep, sweet, tender quality of our interactions (after all, that is the whole reason to be doing this), but somehow differentiate between this arrangement, and what we would have if I were his acknowledged partner.  Any ideas on how to configure this so I don't slide right back into something that is going to hurt and disappoint me again?  I need really strong clarity on what we are doing, and not doing, if he is going to pursue others.  I simply can't participate in what would essentially be an open relationship with me as the primary emotional partner and him professing passionate love for and making love to other women.  So ... .is there some arrangement I'm not seeing that allows us to remain in meaningful contact but without sliding into that?  Something that allows for growth, that is kind, that is logical and fair?

Thanks ... .

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[mindwise]

Hi patientandclear,

I've been there and I totally understand what you are going through.

What works for you doesn't works for him and viceversa.

It won't be easy but if you really wish to give it a try you might consider:

1 - Setting a specific date up to which you will work on improving the relationship. If things don't progress, then, this date will mark the end of your patience and the end of your efforts. Just make sure you don't stay in limbo.

2 - The inconvinience with long distance relationships is that they can easily develop into a "phoneship". Spending time together is very important. So both of you must make plans to go visit eachother consistenly.

3 - Communicate your boundaries clearly and dearly, and stay your ground. Sometimes there is no other way but to express that crossing certain boundaries will force you to exit the present situation.

4 - Understand that having a functional relationship will be difficult, so lower for a while your expectations. Accept also that he will make mistakes (you might too).

5 - Stay in touch with your feelings and ensure your well being. There will be difficult days so measure well for how long you wish to persist (ie: set specific date).

6 - Ultimately. If you look for "success stories" online you'll see that most of them involve that the pwBPD seeks professional help (probably the partner too). 

You might consider to not participate/engage him or go along with "just friends" or "open relatiosnhip" terms. Let him know you love him, but that you aren't interested in only friendship or an open relatiosnhip, so he can call you if he changes his mind. If he does, set up dates with "intimate, deep, sweet, tender quality of our interactions". Be flexible also, it won't always be easy with intimacy. Just hang out, have fun and be understanding of his condition.

About the option of going No Contact. Frankly, sometimes it's the best you can offer to both of you. You deserve to live in harmony with your goals and values. As strange as it may sound, your absence could be the best exemple of integrity and self respect he could have. The alternative to "staying" or going "full no contact" is to take a very long break, move on with your life and achieve your goals (ie: exclusive, loving and healthy relationship with someone else). Then, you could come back to the pwBPD as a friend with no romantic interests and offer support. I've seen this work so I share it with you for your consideration.

Take care



     

[babyducks]

Hi patientandclear,

I do actually remember your posts from a couple of years back.  I find it amazing what we, as non's have experienced as we work to navigate our relationships.   Nice to have you back with us.   

I'm not sure that I have all the nuances of your situation figured out but what seemed significant to me was this:

My whole problem with what we do is that he desires deep intimate access to me, but also wants it to have no name, no obligation, no commitment, no need to negotiate its terms if he wants to leave or see someone else.  That does not work for me. 

My Therapist used to say to me, a lot as a matter of fact; "Babyducks, you need to put on your emotional armor and control the supply you provide to your pwBPD."

I think you stated your boundary.  Deep intimate access comes with obligation and commitment.  If he can't agree to a commitment to you and fulfill the agreement, you should control the intimacy of relationship like water flowing through a tap.   You don't have to turn it off completely but you can put on your emotional armor and deliberately and consciously dial down the intimacy between you.

I think that would be amazingly difficult to do.  It would require a level of self discipline that I, for sure, do not possess.   

When my partner emotionally dsyregulates, I have practiced not taking on those emotions.  I have some affirmations that I have written on 3x5 index cards that attempt to create invisible emotional barriers, where the end result is I don't let her emotions in.    I don't do that with her positive emotions, only with her negative ones.   It sounds like in the situation you are describing you would have to do that with the positive emotions?

I would be wary of being overly available to the connection you describe, but would consider deliberately holding part of me in reserve as a protection to me and my emotions.   If he is receiving the benefits of having the connection he wants with out a commitment, he won't be motivated to act differently.   

Just my two cents.

'ducks

[patientandclear]

Babyducks ... .first, yes, it is amazingly difficult to put up barriers between me and his positive emotions.  It feels crazy, and it runs against every instinct.  That however is what I've decided to try to do, because I can't think of anything else.  So I'm trying to figure out ways to make that concrete.

I was in NC for a long, long time.  When I began telling him I needed either more or less, he got mad, sent me off into purgatory for a few months, didn't contact me ... .and I used that as a convenient chance to end it in my head and heart.  When he wanted to come back around, I held him at extreme arm's length.  Said I didn't want to be in communication or to meet if he was still in the same place (he'll see other people, won't acknowledge the role of our relationship).

Did that for 10 months.  But this spring he got in touch and begged me to explore and reconsider.  As noted in the original post, we sort of fought that one to a draw -- we don't want the same thing.  And yes, my initial stance was to go back to NC.  But in the months since, it has seemed to me that that does not give us a chance to grow and try, with full knowledge of what I want and how I feel.  I think for most pwBPD, going off all by themselves and reaching a conclusion that they really want to be committed to someone else tends to be an unsustainable decision based on abandonment panic.  He was ready and willing to make lots of promises to me when he first got back in touch.  But it soon became clear it was just what he thought was my "purchase price," which is a bad reason to make a commitment.

For him, trust is all-important.  Trust is the main inhibitor of his ability to commit.  I don't know how to build trust in the absence of one another.  Obviously if we are communicating, trust also requires reliable, sturdy, loving boundaries, and that's what I'm searching for here -- how to enforce limited access to me without making him feel I am unreliable or don't care.

I've reached the conclusion you did, which is that if he can have all the benefits of a committed relationship and none of the obligations, why would he even explore whether his feelings could change?  I've tried it in the past and he loved it -- and went right out and explored relationships with others.  Starting over again with no boundaries feels ... .stupid.  And like permission to repeat that.  But concretely, what boundaries make sense here? Talk once a week? No email?  (Daily email is his preferred level of communication with me.)  Letters only?  :)on't see each other? (He is moving much closer to me in a few weeks.)  :)o see each other?  ?

[myself]

Hi. I remember. And wanted to ask: Are they boundaries you're looking for, or ways to bend so you can somehow keep him in your life? Is what you're striving for actually feasible with him (even though the patterns and possibilities have long been apparent), or are you just re-hooked now, and extra afraid to let go/move on? Since you're posting this on Staying, best of luck as always. But perhaps the answer is in what you wrote above:

we don't want the same thing.

[patientandclear]

Hi. I remember. And wanted to ask: Are they boundaries you're looking for, or ways to bend so you can somehow keep him in your life? Is what you're striving for actually feasible with him (even though the patterns and possibilities have long been apparent), or are you just re-hooked now, and extra afraid to let go/move on? Since you're posting this on Staying, best of luck as always. But perhaps the answer is in what you wrote above:

we don't want the same thing.

Hi ... .what I'm open to is the possibility of change and learning, if I'm not scared to talk to him about what I want.  He wants our connection and closeness.  I've only managed the "we don't want the same thing" problem in the past by very crude boundaries ("OK I'm leaving then".  That leaves us both very unhappy.  I have never had the intestinal fortitude to stay and articulate what works for me, what doesn't work, and give him a chance to choose without having to deal with extreme loss and the resentments and damage that come with that.

In the conversations we had this spring, he begged me to stay and stay in dialogue about it because "people change, things change."  I am not willing to just return to his ideal scenario in the hope that things will change.  That's dumb.  And -- I've already done it once.  But I've never been able to make my peace with cutting him off entirely.  I think I've been too scared (of loss, of rejection) to remain in contact with boundaries.  So ... .I would like to try that.  But I need ideas for what those could look like under this scenario.

[Grey Kitty]

I remember your story then. Here are your choices as I see them:

1. Intimate non-exclusive long distance friendship. What he offered. All along... .with occasional push pull games. What you said no to before. This last time he promised more, but I doubt he is capable of it.

2. Less intimate friendship. One where you choose to limit your intimacy with him... .because you don't trust him to give you more. He may well share more than you, and try to pull you in closer if you maintain distance. (You need strong boundaries for this)

3. NC

I doubt you like any of the three very much.   I wish I saw a more appealing option.

Here are some other thoughts... .

Have you been separated long enough to do any dating yourself yet? Or did he always PPP back up before you were ready?

Do you have close intimate friends or family you can talk to about relationship issues (like this) face to face or on the phone?

[patientandclear]

Hi GK and thanks!

Yes, lots of friends who have heard about this ad nauseum in real life. Most disagree with my current route. Some grasp that I have a hard time giving up on this without exhausting all options.

Of options you outline, which I agree are those available, I ruled out 1 and am now ruling out 3. That leaves 2, and that's what I'm doing. I'm looking for concrete ideas about how to limit intimacy while not diminishing or distorting the nature of the r/s. I'd like to make it rich but intermittent/occasional, so it can't be mistaken by either of us for a sort of chaste marriage. But that feels like withholding and sometimes feels kind of mean. So, specific suggestions about limits here would be very helpful.

[123Phoebe]

Hi P&C, welcome back to staying

I'm looking for concrete ideas about how to limit intimacy while not diminishing or distorting the nature of the r/s. I'd like to make it rich but intermittent/occasional, so it can't be mistaken by either of us for a sort of chaste marriage. But that feels like withholding and sometimes feels kind of mean. So, specific suggestions about limits here would be very helpful.

Honestly, I think you're thinking too much about this, about how to do things just so, so that... . 

Keep in mind that we have no control over how or what someone else thinks or feels. 

Can you describe what the nature of the relationship is, right now, today?  Can you find happiness and contentment today, no matter what he's doing?

[babyducks]

Hi patientandclear,

this is a tough one for sure.

here is what I am thinking.

to remain in contact with boundaries.  So ... .I would like to try that.  But I need ideas for what those could look like under this scenario.

When I first came to bpdfamily I was on the leaving board because my r/s had suffered a catastrophic event and my r/s had severed abruptly as we both tried to recover.   My choice at that time was to be NC, my partner's choice at that time was to remain LC.  We were very much at odds and it was very difficult.   As things worked out we very often saw each other in public venues.   What I learned from that was the mechanics of contact were beyond my control and not the significant portion.

So I am going to suggest to you P&C that specific suggestions about the practical realties may not be the most helpful thing.     Email contact only, letters only, once a week, once a month,  yeah those limits might help.    From what I experienced, I am going to guess what would also help is managing the content of the contact.

2. Less intimate friendship. One where you choose to limit your intimacy with him... .because you don't trust him to give you more. He may well share more than you, and try to pull you in closer if you maintain distance. (You need strong boundaries for this)

For simplicities sake I am going to call Grey Kitty's option number two LC.   I can't begin to describe how much intestinal fortitude it took to do LC when I was doing it.         It was for me a maelstrom of emotions.   It was however a way of establishing and maintaining internal boundaries.   My goal was to be able to see my partner and not have it affect me.   To be able to open and close the door to my heart at my will.   It was, to quote the old song, an inside job.   Just because I loved her, and I wasn't willing to reject that love out of hand, didn't mean I was going to be at the mercy of her behavior.   

Which is why my T spent a lot of time telling me to build emotional armor.  Not so much stuffing my emotions but putting them away behind a safe wall to be dealt with when they would be respected and cherished for the gift they were.   Yes sometimes that did feel like withholding.   It did feel counter intuitive.  It was necessary.  It was part of the process for me.

Practically, what that looked like for me was to come up with a list of triggers, and different ways of coping with them.   The exercise I was given, and that really worked for me was:

When  __________   event happens I feel____________ so I will _________________.

Filling in the blanks looked like this for me, When I see my partner at a public event I feel an enormous tug on my heart strings and the urge to throw caution to the wind, which is a poor choice right now, so instead I will nod pleasantly say it's very good to see you and exit with dignity.   

That was the beginning of establishing a boundary for me.    The When X, I feel, so I will, formula is helpful.

The mechanics of that were, I spent of lot of time saying.  "that's not a conversation I can have right now".   "I respect your opinion, and I think I need to return to this topic later."   "I appreciate that is how you feel, I don't happen to share your sense of things."    Deliberately setting up verbal roadblocks to keep us away from emotionally loaded and intense conversations.  It was, as I said upstream, not so much managing the contact, as managing the content.   When I felt the conversation was going to go okay and I could handle it we went further into those topics.   Strangely it seemed to make my partner feel much more comfortable.   Which I don't quite understand.

So we could discuss baseball, and current events, job stress, and the weather without limits.  There were limits around topics like our relationship, our emotional needs, either one of us had the right to stop the conversation when it drifted into, what was for us, unsafe territory.

. That leaves 2, and that's what I'm doing. I'm looking for concrete ideas about how to limit intimacy while not diminishing or distorting the nature of the r/s. I'd like to make it rich but intermittent/occasional, so it can't be mistaken by either of us for a sort of chaste marriage. But that feels like withholding and sometimes feels kind of mean. So, specific suggestions about limits here would be very helpful.

I think we give advice here all the time on how to limit circular arguments and rages.   I would suggest some of that advice would work when you feel the love bombing coming on.   Draw your own mental line in the sand about where you feel it's necessary to stop the emotional closeness.   If he likes to email daily, can you delay your response until your own level of reactivity dies down a little?     If he uses affectionate nicknames that are triggering to you can you draw a boundary around that?   I know I am really trying to pull a rabbit out of my hat here.   Perhaps if you reply to 123Phoebe's

Can you describe what the nature of the relationship is, right now, today? 

with an example of an exchange we can point out really definitive boundaries.

best of luck

'ducks.

[patientandclear]

Hi P&C, welcome back to staying

I'm looking for concrete ideas about how to limit intimacy while not diminishing or distorting the nature of the r/s. I'd like to make it rich but intermittent/occasional, so it can't be mistaken by either of us for a sort of chaste marriage. But that feels like withholding and sometimes feels kind of mean. So, specific suggestions about limits here would be very helpful.

Honestly, I think you're thinking too much about this, about how to do things just so, so that... . 

Keep in mind that we have no control over how or what someone else thinks or feels. 

Can you describe what the nature of the relationship is, right now, today?  Can you find happiness and contentment today, no matter what he's doing?

Hi Phoebe!  I was hoping you might comment.

Well, I'm often guilty of thinking too much!  But I promise I am not trying to control what he feels.  I simply am not sure what he feels (or will feel or can feel) and don't want to foreclose the possibility of growth with a rigid no contact arrangement, as in the past.  Meanwhile, though, I need to protect myself from hurtful dynamics that we've recently lived through.

What I left out of my recap (but which I know you remember, Phoebe) is that I was done with this.  It was pretty traumatic for me.  I already did the thing where you don't think too much and just go with what seems to be working for us both and to feel good for us both.  I was good at that -- I have a high tolerance for ambiguity -- and it went really well for quite a while.  It led to a sweet, tender, intimate relationship (except we were not having sex and he didn't call it a relationship).  But.  He then left town and started seeing someone else, which felt to me like a betrayal of what we were doing, but which he evidently didn't see that way because, after all, he said we were just friends.  I was on these boards at the time in real pain about this and I remember you & MaybeSo and others saying, yeah, if my BPD SO suddenly moved across the continent in the middle of our complex intimate tender "friendship"/unacknowledged partnership, I would regard that as a game-changer.

So ... .the reason I'm thinking so carefully now is that I already tried the route where we just do what feels good. Where we just let it unfold.  It's fantastic.  We both love it.  But he then regards himself as having a green light to see others.  This time, I have been super explicit that that hurts me.  I've said I am going to have boundaries on this point -- that if he is going to reserve the "right" to explore love relationships with other women, I will not be able to be intimately involved with him.  Even thinking that it makes sense to be in contact is a new development for me.  And, even though he toyed with the idea of making this offer a few months back, our current status is that he has NOT made any commitment not to see other women.  And he is back to calling it a friendship.  Even though in various ways in the past few months, he has acknowledged it is not really that.

One of the things we have going for us is that I have enforced boundaries on this issue -- so far.  He is constantly wrecking relationships with others and has expressed relief that I will protect my own emotional health.  I am absolutely committed to protecting my own emotional health.  I love this guy.  We could have an awesome long term relationship.  But I do not want to be in an open relationship.  I need that to be a well-understood boundary.  And this feels like it is heading right back into that territory.  I don't believe I would know if he is seeing or pursuing someone else.  I learned about it last time through happenstance.  Which is why I have been relying on an explicit conversation about the terms of what we are doing this time.

I do get the appeal of "let's just start again, with no preconditions, and see where it goes."  That is certainly the route he wants.  My values are in line with that too, EXCEPT that I already did that and ended up going through an emotional meat-grinder.  It seems like I'd be an idiot to sign up for the exact same process again.  And it would send him some unhelpful, not to mention confusing, messages about what works for me.

We've been super honest with each other in recent months, but I am not eager to plunge back into a relationship discussion to hash this out again, either. I would like to just act in accordance with boundaries that are in keeping with what I've said, but also, give us a chance to grow and go in a new direction if that is something he decides he wants.  Just having a hard time understanding what that looks like.

In terms of what the relationship IS ... .we're still emerging from a protracted period of no contact, feeling our way.  We talked by phone several times this spring, and emailed and texted a bit.  Now, back to email (that's how I reached out to him last month).  He has mentioned phone calls and visiting and "hanging out" when he moves closer to me next month.  I am open to all those things but just need not to be communicating tacitly to him that I'm OK returning to our old arrangement, where we explore being super close and then he pursues other women.  I'm not OK with that, I will not be OK with that, returning to that will cause me to again withdraw from any intimate connection, which will hurt him, etc.

Right now, what I've said is "unless you tell me you're not interested in pursuing relationships with other women, I need this to be pretty confined.  I can't give you what I give you and then learn you are professing love to others."  And where he is right now (as opposed to a few months back before our conversations went down the tubes, when he was speaking of a monogamy/committed arrangement, but because he thought it was what I wanted) is "I'll be your friend without preconditions."  I don't know what that means and we're taking a break from discussing what it means.

I'd love to take what I call a Phoebe approach.  We do well with that.  But last time ... .oof.  He did that with me and then engaged in behavior that I felt was an emotional betrayal of what we were to each other.  He did not agree or at least, though he had secured explicit agreements that made it OK to do what he did.  OK, I can see that point of view.  And it is on me to not repeat that.

WWPD? 

[patientandclear]

I think we give advice here all the time on how to limit circular arguments and rages.   I would suggest some of that advice would work when you feel the love bombing coming on.   :)raw your own mental line in the sand about where you feel it's necessary to stop the emotional closeness.   If he likes to email daily, can you delay your response until your own level of reactivity dies down a little?     If he uses affectionate nicknames that are triggering to you can you draw a boundary around that?   I know I am really trying to pull a rabbit out of my hat here.   Perhaps if you reply to 123Phoebe's

Can you describe what the nature of the relationship is, right now, today? 

with an example of an exchange we can point out really definitive boundaries.

best of luck

'ducks.

Babyducks -- cannot tell you how helpful this is.  Exactly -- it IS an inside job (which is what I've been telling my real life friends who are super skeptical that I can find boundaries that will really help in this situation).  Your idea that this is about content more than format is very smart.  Really, levels of emotional access.  And your recognition that it DOES feel like withholding and it does suck, is also super helpful.

I do think I can (with difficulty) manage my own feelings and expectations.  I am very reality-based about all this.

But I also feel an obligation to clearly communication to him what I can and cannot do.  It has hurt him a lot to have me withdraw.  He's asked me to tell him what doesn't work for me.  That's a very fair request.  I really, really want to continue being clear with him.  How else can we learn and progress, to whatever point we can and ought to reach?

***

So here's a concrete example.  I was going with "I can't go back to our daily email thing," because that symbolizes our old arrangement, and also, readily becomes a substitute for real connection.  He and I both get that phone calls and in person are better, and more honest.

So a week ago I responded to an interesting email he wrote, by saying I'd write a real letter, explaining that I wanted not to just fall back into our old thing.  I sent the letter, along with a small gift, through the mail.  He acknowledged what I was trying to do, but wrote an email when he got the package saying thank you, he loved it, he'd write soon.  I felt like I needed to acknowledge the nice thank you email.  So I responded, briefly, nicely, and added a question and sent a link to a story.  He then responded full-bore to that with a full friendly sweet email, to which I responded in a limited but nice way, and he responded again nearly instantly with new content ... .he wants to reestablish this way of connecting, I get that.  It was sort of our hallmark.  And there is nothing inherently bad going on.  It just represents me having no boundaries.  I'm sitting here this morning, not having replied yet, knowing that makes him wonder if he offended me or if I'm going away again ... .I will answer in some fashion, but I feel very much like I am sending the message that going back to where we were before would be OK.  It wouldn't.

Thanks for any help ... .

[Grey Kitty]

P&C, I think you are getting the kind of boundaries that you need to feel safe with your guy. I'm kinda doing the same with my wife right now, but she decided she wants to separate snd I'm not fighting that. In fact I'm pushing it farther than she is for my emotional health, and not having any intimate conversations with her at all while I heal and we finish division of assets/belongings. I've got other friends I'm getting those needs met with now

I'm afraid you are missing a bigger issue here... .what you are talking about is how to manage this relationship better. NOT how to get your own needs met (which your guy can do some of but not all of)

I suspect you need the kind of emotionally intimate connection you had with him during good times/phases.

You can't get that from him in the LC relationship. And you don't seem ready to trust him that much either.

You say you don't want an open relationship on either your side or his side, so you can't get it from another guy in a romantic relationship.

Can you get this with other non-romantic friends or family members?

Do you want to be connected to him at the expense of making that kind of intimacy not a part of any romantic relationship you have? (Since he doesn't seem completely safe for it but is keeping you from looking for others)

Let me be clear--I'm not trying to steer you out of this relationship, even though I feel like I sound negative. I'm trying to work out what this relationship can be and what the limits are with you. When you were wishing it was something it wasn't you went through the meat grinder last time.

[patientandclear]

I guess I am trying to remain reality-based but make room for and actually encourage growth.  I do NOT think my BPD guy gets HIS deepest needs met, the way he manages relationships.  He is often very sad and almost always very anxious.  I believe we could get somewhere more satisfying.  But I won't run that experiment with him again on the same terms as before.

So it's not just that I am managing the r/ship as-is.  I could do that just by giving up all aspirations for it to be other than it is now.  I want to manage it to make it possible for us to grow.  On terms that work for us both.

That's why boundaries matter as a communication mechanism.  If he chose to forgo some of his usual coping strategies (spinning through superficial intimate connections with woman after woman at great cost to those women), I would go further, in ways that are meaningful and desirable to him.  I'd like not to muddy the waters by acting like that is going to happen if he continues with those coping strategies, as well.

[123Phoebe]

I'm sure there's more to it and the two of you have a connection and all that good stuff.  With that being said and without trying to manage your relationship or the way you go about it, it just sounds to me like your relationship is based on things you don't want-- that the essence of it is communicating things away that you're uncomfortable with.

I will answer in some fashion, but I feel very much like I am sending the message that going back to where we were before would be OK.  It wouldn't.

What is it that you're wanting from him?  Not want you don't want, but what you do, ultimately?  Is the way things are now not okay?

When was the last time you saw each other?

WWPD?  

I don't know what WWPD means?

[patientandclear]

WWPD = What Would Phoebe Do?

We last saw each other almost 2 years ago.  We were planning to meet up when I realized he was seeing someone else ... .I started exploring what we were really doing together, he got mad and cut off communication for a while, their r/ship imploded, he made plans to come see me, I said not if we were going back to the same old arrangement (where we're close and he dates others). So we have not seen each other for a long time. That could change ... .He will be much closer.

I love being with him. He seems to feel the same. We're good together, there really are no obvious problems. My problem is that that is true BUT he says we can only be friends AND he dates others (though he conceals that from me so I may not even be aware of specific instances. I just know he will, and has). I don't like putting an artificial cap on what we do. But his involvement with other women (rather, that history plus that he is not disavowing that interest going forward) makes me feel like an idiot for resuming what we both like so much.

[123Phoebe]

We last saw each other almost 2 years ago. 

2 years is a long time.  I wouldn't consider it resuming anything. 

[patientandclear]

It's long distance so we weren't literally seeing each other often anyway. We were in daily communication till the big flare up where he told me to have a nice life after I said I couldn't be as close with him if he was seeing someone else. That however was 18 months ago.

What are the implications of "I wouldn't consider it resuming anything?" We had a well established thing where we communicated intimately daily and (eventually) he felt free to pursue others. I will not knowingly resume that. And because he conceals his other romantic interests from me, I wouldn't necessarily know.

Are you saying what makes sense, if we're going to have contact at all, is to assume this is a new day and we can give it a fresh start without my manning the barricades quite so vigilantly?

When I contemplate that (which is essentially what I did when we first reunited after the breakup and long NC period), I wonder what possible reason I would have to think that would go differently. Especially because surely he will receive the message that I am not serious about these deal breaker issues I've flagged.

It feels more likely that we could achieve some incremental improved understanding through some kind of limited contact with boundaries. I'm guessing that doesn't resonate with you Phoebe? It's true that that will distort the normal ebb and flow of our relationship, but don't I have every reason to think he will continue to see other women? And if I just walk back into a situation without limits or boundaries, how am I not telling him that that is fine with me?

[123Phoebe]

What are the implications of "I wouldn't consider it resuming anything?" We had a well established thing where we communicated intimately daily and (eventually) he felt free to pursue others. I will not knowingly resume that. And because he conceals his other romantic interests from me, I wouldn't necessarily know.

I meant just that, I wouldn't resume what the two of you had together. 

It feels more likely that we could achieve some incremental improved understanding through some kind of limited contact with boundaries. I'm guessing that doesn't resonate with you Phoebe? It's true that that will distort the normal ebb and flow of our relationship, but don't I have every reason to think he will continue to see other women? And if I just walk back into a situation without limits or boundaries, how am I not telling him that that is fine with me?

Yes, you have absolutely every reason to think he'll see other women, he's told you as much.  If you're willing to go back into this, you're going in knowing full well that this is what he'll do.  Like others have suggested, you protect yourself, protect your heart.  What you have right now isn't exclusive. 

What does achieving some incremental improved understanding mean or look like to you?

[Grey Kitty]

I guess I am trying to remain reality-based but make room for and actually encourage growth.  I do NOT think my BPD guy gets HIS deepest needs met, the way he manages relationships.  He is often very sad and almost always very anxious.  I believe we could get somewhere more satisfying.  But I won't run that experiment with him again on the same terms as before.

So it's not just that I am managing the r/ship as-is.  I could do that just by giving up all aspirations for it to be other than it is now.  I want to manage it to make it possible for us to grow.  On terms that work for us both.

That's why boundaries matter as a communication mechanism.  If he chose to forgo some of his usual coping strategies (spinning through superficial intimate connections with woman after woman at great cost to those women), I would go further, in ways that are meaningful and desirable to him.  I'd like not to muddy the waters by acting like that is going to happen if he continues with those coping strategies, as well.

1. Your boundaries cannot stop him from his "usual coping strategies" with other women.

What is a safe emotional distance from him for YOU to have if (when?) he does resume?

Keeping that distance is the only boundary I can think of for you to protect yourself... .how far away is it?

2. I asked you about getting YOUR emotional needs met, not getting his met. Are you able to do that (perhaps with other people) and still keep whatever distance you find safe from him?

[babyducks]

  I'm sitting here this morning, not having replied yet, knowing that makes him wonder if he offended me or if I'm going away again ... .I will answer in some fashion, but I feel very much like I am sending the message that going back to where we were before would be OK.  It wouldn't.

Thanks for any help ... .

Somebody here once told me (Winston72) "twisting yourself into a pretzel trying to shape yourself to match her ability to understand/comprehend ends up with you terribly twisted in your own thinking and overly identified with her thinking".

How and when you respond is based first on what is comfortable for you and THEN second what works for him.   Your primary responsibility is to yourself and protecting your own emotional vulnerability with this guy.   When you feel calm and centered reply in a way that feels, natural, organic and non anxiety producing to you.

I wouldn't let him drive the bus.

[MaybeSo]

Any ideas on how to configure this so I don't slide right back into something that is going to hurt and disappoint me again?  I need really strong clarity on what we are doing, and not doing, if he is going to pursue others.  I simply can't participate in what would essentially be an open relationship with me as the primary emotional partner and him professing passionate love for and making love to other women.  So ... .is there some arrangement I'm not seeing that allows us to remain in meaningful contact but without sliding into thath (into hurt or disappointment?)  Something that allows for growth, that is kind, that is logical and fair?

No, no ideas how to rig it to avoid hurt and disappointment. I think it's best to embrace the reality that you likely will experience hurt and disappointment, and then work out a decision you can live with from THAT starting place.  I think that's a more adult view.  Fundamentally, I just don't think you can experience intimacy without fully accepting the risk and the reality of experiencing hurt and disappointment. I don't think intimacy and growth are available w/out embracing some pain and disappointment.  These relationships seem to have a lot of it (hurt and disappointment) but really, discomfort is a part of any intimate relationship and it's a part of growth, too... .sooner or later.  Even if it's that one of you eventually has to bury the other b/c you age and someone dies first.  The more intimate, the closer, the more deep... .the more you risk being hurt.  It will hurt.  That's why so many folks (most of us) say we want intimacy but hedge our bets, constantly... .I want intimacy, I don't want to feel hurt or disappointment.   The closer you are, the more intimate, the more painful the loss when you lose that person (however that loss may transpire).  

I guess you can have a more detached relationship where there is less at stake b/c you are not as close, not as intimate, you stand back a bit and keep your distance but still have a friendly connection.  That's an option. It's not going to be as fulfilling as deep intimacy, but you don't experience deep intimacy w/out risking hurt and disappointment, whether lovers, friends, etc.    

It seems your guy doesn't want a traditional, monogomous relationship.  It sounds like you do.  Only you know if you can make yourself happy in a less traditional arrangement like that.  He has lots of complex reasons for why he is who he is... .but, he's asking for something that sounds unattractive to you from the way you describe it.   You could try it with the frame that you are stretching yourself and tolerating some discomfort for growth... .and be clear that it's the kind of growth you really value and want. Some folks really want to explore love w/out jealousy or fear or the typical painful ego states that go with traditional romantic attachments... .just focus on the love as sort of a spiritual meditation. Someone might feel like the kind of r/s he seems to be suggesting might be a place for them to personally stretch in that way. Knowing at times it would be painful and challenging, but valuing it for their own growth reasons.  That's an individual choice. If it's not an area of growth that has value to you, then... .you might be better served stretching in another area... .like in giving a firm no to something that you know really doesn't suit you. And dealing with the hurt and disappointment that comes with having to say no.

The reality is there is hurt and disappointment no matter what.  It hurts to stay, It hurts to go. It's pretty flippin uncomfortable to  be somewhere in the middle, too.  None of it lasts forever, but it hurts, nonetheless.

You have already been disappointed and hurt. It already happened.

Accept fully who he is, and make wise choices that are fully accepting of who YOU are.  :)on't say yes to anything thinking you will change him.  :)on't agree to anything, no matter how well planned and mapped out, with the thought that you are protected from getting hurt b/c your plan and your agreement this time will protect you from hurt and disappointment. That's magical thinking.    

You get to paint the canvas any way you want... .it is up to you.

But, there is no way to get around the risk of hurt and disappointment. It's part of deep love, deep connection, and having a rich life.  The meaning you make of it is what counts.  

I don't like stupid pain. I don't like self-abandonment pain.  I don't like sticky, controlling, anxious,  resentful, blaming pain.

But if you are really feeling at times ... .hurt and disappointment... .b/c you are out there taking risks and loving and staying open and are growing, that's just  having a rich, interesting, meaningful life.

It seems to me, anyway.

[patientandclear]

MaybeSo, thank you for this beautiful post.  It gets exactly at why I struggle to know what to do with this relationship.

So far (in four years, three years with a lot of information and understanding from this site), I have yet to find a stance that feels right.  NC when it's my decision feels terrible.  This spring when we were talking, he begged me not to end things just because he can't be exactly what or how I want, or do what would really work for me.  It was a ragged begging and it hurt to hear it.

It's fine to say I need to look out for myself, etc., but the truth is, that does not readily dictate cutting off my connection with him.  He matters to me.  Accepting him as he is.  Losing him is a big loss.  Sometimes I think he is doing his best.  Sometimes I think he is not.  So far I have largely left him to figure things out on his own without any comment or input from me other than that the way he does things doesn't work for me, or hurts me.  Now I'm starting to think that it would have been better to stand my ground, hang in there, communicate about the effects of what he does, but not leave entirely.  My choice to leave entirely has been driven by pain and rejection trauma.  When I put my "it's not rejection" BPD comprehension lens on, maybe it's not so hard.  But I can't always keep that lens on.  And anyway, sometimes that feels and looks a lot like enabling and being a crutch, almost preventing him from confronting some things he probably needs to face the fall out from.

And sometimes it feels like just re-conceptualizing a hurtful, withholding dynamic so that I see myself as a volunteer, not a victim ... .and I recognize that to be a feature of abusive relationships.

He often challenges me to be open to change, chaos, how things can develop.  But then I discern that he himself has ruled out growth and change, and he prefers to keep me and us in a tidy comforting reliable box, in the midst of his chaos.  On my strongest days, I feel like I can talk to him about that.  But I also want to just be in the relationship, not constantly indicting it or challenging it or pushing him or being critical.

Yet, just "being" in the relationship is extremely hard because he likes to extract intimate feelings from me on terms that feel unfair, and require boundaries.

I agree with your point that intimacy almost always brings pain, and that alone doesn't necessarily mean we should avoid the connection entirely.  And that we cannot live a rich life of possibilities without some risk.  At the same time, participating in an unhealthy "stuck" pattern is "stupid pain," as you call it, it seems to me.

So what I am looking for is a way to stay connected, risk pain for the benefit I get and the possibility of growth, but not to open myself up to stupid self-abandoning pain.  What can that look like here?  That's exactly what I'm fumbling around for.

[MaybeSo]

We all get rejected sometimes.  If it is traumatic, it needs to be worked through, one way or the other.

I had rejection trauma, betrayal trauma, whatever you call it... .by engaging with my person. That is for sure.  Shaking, sweating,  long term wondering if I would ever, ever feel normal again kind of trauma.  

My choice, smart or not, was to keep tapping back into what was traumatizing, until I got close enough to see, that there wasn't really a monster under the bed, after all.  Call it immersion therapy, or whatever.  It's just how I dealt with it.  In the end, he is Just another wounded soul.  Nothing to see here folks, shows over.   Most  of the 'trauma' that came up for me was stuff that got stirred up by him that had to do with childhood injury, a dad that comes and goes,  and he was just re-stimulating that old wound, b/c he is unavailable, too.    He is unavailable. Period.  So was dad.  So I kept tapping into it, with a mind toward growth... .until it wasn't traumatic anymore.

That is NOT necessarily the right move for everyone!  But, it worked for me.   I am SOO over it.  :)oesn't mean I don't value him or vilify him or idealize him.  He is just a person, I learned a lot by engaging with him.  But there is no shaking, sweaty, trauma response anymore.   But it was really, really hard to get there.  I tend to do things the hard way.  It's not for everyone. I still have contact with my person, it's just, not charged anymore.  I know who he is.  He's fine.  I'm fine.  He doesn't offer a life style that suits me, that's all.  And I don't offer what he needs or wants, either.   Period.  But, he attended my moms memorial service a couple months ago, and we keep in touch.  He will no doubt try to hook up in the future when he is feeling empty and lonely... .that's just what he does.  Always looking for a mommy when he's hurting.  I am not available to do that with him anymore, but he will still try I am sure... .it's just what he does.  There's no charge around it for me.  He is seductive, but I've seen it all.  It's not mysterious and deep to me anymore.  I hold the keys to my own happy life, not him.  But oh is he good and painting a pretty picture.

By the way... .I see now, that what felt at the time, for a very long time, as a really unique and deep intimacy between me and him... .wasn't really ALL THAT deep.  When you see the pattern up close for a long time, when you engage in it for a long time, when you allow yourself to hurt from the loss of 'it' b/c you engage in it closely for a long time and keep having to lose it... .you start to see the superficiality of it all.   The intimacy ceiling is pretty low, actually.  I realize now, it wasn't as deep as it felt. It never was. Something important is happening but it's not really about intimacy.  I think it's about the charge of re-enacting trauma, usually childhood trauma originally.   You couldn't have told me that two years ago... .certainly not 8 years ago.  I'm not saying there isn't a connection, there is,  but, when it can only go so far (and it can only go so far b/c of the limits that are there and obvious!) then it's not really all THAT deep.  In my opinion, these hard relationship are not really about the other person at all.  It's about the need to work on trauma that belongs to us.  It's really how you frame it for yourself.  

If you move through this (however you do it)... .you  may find everything about him ends up having much less of a charge around it than it has so far.  That he's just, a person you know/knew.  The charge around it may go away.  The charge around issues related to rejection trauma may go away, too.  It did for me.    

[MaybeSo]

By he way... .I don't want to suggest there is never ANY trauma or hurt response anymore, ever.

He was pushing a certain connection again a few months ago... .and he kept at it the way he does... .and I did get triggered.  I was having a hard day anyway... .and it triggered me.    And there was some trauma response... .but it didn't last long.   I recovered quickly.  But I don't want to give the impression it's all just easy breezy.  But it's a whole lot better. 

[patientandclear]

MaybeSo, I can't tell you how grateful I am that you shared this.  I can really understand the progression you're describing.  I am not quite there -- still in the throes of a charged bond.  It still feels I have lost or am losing something important, precious, something that existed or was possible.

I've been in it long enough and been close enough about his patterns, though, to have a growing sense of what you're saying, about how the seemingly deep and transcendent connection is really quite a bit more superficial than it (still) feels to me, and much more so than I once believed.  Much of what used to move me, now seems like a formula, and his praise and recruitment strategies feel a little lame and a little studied by now.  A few times, special lines have been recycled; a few times, he's forgotten whether it was me or someone else who did special thing X with him ... .and yes, the magic is wearing a bit thin.

I can see exactly how it could come to be that the monster is gone from under the bed.  I also really appreciate you mentioning that it isn't all the way and always totally gone, and that the echoes of that other feeling are still there.

The rejection trauma from this episode, which played on earlier traumatic losses and betrayals, true, but somehow dwarfed all the rest, had a really profound effect on me.  For the first year or so, my heart literally felt like it was in a constant vice.  For years, and still sometimes today, I had/have dissociative loss of consciousness at night when I sit down, if I think of him/us and what happened.  The idea that it can and may lose its power is very attractive, honestly.  Being entirely separated from him by my own choice did nothing to dispel that pain, so maybe, immersion therapy (as you described this engagement approach) will. I really hope so at this point.

Until recently, I was legitimately confused, and thought I must be incredibly special to him, really unique, and that he must really love me even though he denied it, because he acted like he did.  He acted like he wanted me.  I no longer can be so confused.  He does act like he wants me -- but that is a thing that he does.  This is what he does.  I need to more deeply accept what I know, as it sounds like you have been doing.

At the same time, there are moments of undoubted real connection.  They've come when he believes I have no agenda or ulterior motive.  He is so overwhelmed with the feeling that others are going to invade or control or overwhelm him some way.  Sometimes, we have been in a place where that is held at bay for a while, and it's been really beautiful.  That's the thing I keep trying to hang onto.  But it doesn't stay like that.  And the lifestyle, as you put it, that occurs around those moments isn't one that works for me.  Like you say.

I'm super grateful for these posts.  They've been very calming, and given me a lot to reflect on.

P&C

[MaybeSo]

one more note about your situation.

I really think it is very hard to grasp and hold onto how different you are from him.

I suspect you way overestimate his capacity to have a bonded, intimate relationship. with any woman.  I think you have to really consider how developmentally wounded and handicapped he is. he is seductive. he pushes connection that feels super intimate and deep, but is fleeting and unsustainable. He is not doing any deep work around this. He sounds just like my person. Very very seductive when he needs attention from someone, seductive in every way, willing to do or agree to anything to get you back in the moment. This in itself is so unhealthy. He is showing you not his potential for intimacy, but the woundedness that makes intimacy unbearable.  I really do not think he is acting like a person who has the capacity to be intimate. He is doing what he knows to do to survive. He is not an emotionally healthy person. Just know that. I tell myself now... .when I think about trying to have a r/s get again with my ex... .Maybeso... ."why are you so intent and trying to relate intimately with a person who just can't do that?"  Why is THIS wounded person soo compelling? He cannot be intimate. What am I avoiding by working so hard at intimacy with a person who just cannot do intimacy?

The longer you try to achieve intimacy with someone who can't sustain intimacy, the longer you get to avoid intimacy while looking like all you ever wanted was intimacy.

If you got the intimacy you are working so hard to figure out how to get ( with someone very unlikely to achieve it) you may surprised at your own response... .if you got it.

Striving for intimacy, isn't the experience of intimacy. Experiencing intimacy is always a complex, mixed bag that comes with a jumble of mixed feelings.

when we are always striving for it, strategizing about it... .picking partners that Scream "not available for intimacy"... .we are ourselves avoiding intimacy. 

[myself]

The longer you try to achieve intimacy with someone who can't sustain intimacy, the longer you get to avoid intimacy while looking like all you ever wanted was intimacy.

   

The more it's like a game you're trying to win instead of living your life?

The best that you're looking for here is that he meets you in the middle. Sharing real intimacy, pretty consistently, that you can both relax into and count on while making progress together. What serious steps is he making to accomplish that? Because no matter how you paint this, or which angles you approach it, it's going to take both of you to make it work. Again, are they boundaries you're looking for, or a way out of the maze of this?

[patientandclear]

Again, are they boundaries you're looking for, or a way out of the maze of this?

Interesting question.  My impression from some accounts here is that boundaries, sometimes, do provide a way out of the maze of this.  They straighten out some unhealthy tangles in a way that allows us to see better what is going on, and why.

I know I have to have some boundaries.  I cannot just plunge in without regard to what I have 150% certainty will happen again.  If complete disengagement does not feel right (and it doesn't ... .and I have given it the old college try, several times, for long stretches) ... .then, I need some thoughtful, useful, helpful boundaries.  This I know.

I think the thrust of your post and MaybeSo's point, though, is that the boundaries may shed light without making this work better.

I guess, though, inherently, it does work better if we stop asking a situation to yield something that it very likely cannot.

[patientandclear]

one more note about your situation.

I really think it is very hard to grasp and hold onto how different you are from him.

I suspect you way overestimate his capacity to have a bonded, intimate relationship. with any woman.  I think you have to really consider how developmentally wounded and handicapped he is. he is seductive. he pushes connection that feels super intimate and deep, but is fleeting and unsustainable. He is not doing any deep work around this. He sounds just like my person. Very very seductive when he needs attention from someone, seductive in every way, willing to do or agree to anything to get you back in the moment. This in itself is so unhealthy. He is showing you not his potential for intimacy, but the woundedness that makes intimacy unbearable.  I really do not think he is acting like a person who has the capacity to be intimate. He is doing what he knows to do to survive. He is not an emotionally healthy person. Just know that.

This is so insightful.  Yes, I do have a hard time deeply assimilating how impossible anything approaching genuine intimacy is for him.  Perhaps its because he says the words "intimate" and "intimacy" more than anyone I've ever known.  You are exactly right, the seduction, which appears to be all about the great value of our bond and the exceptional closeness, is very deceptive.  It's mostly facsimile closeness, like what you'd get out of a machine if you ordered up "closeness."  Kind of chemical tasting.

He knows he wants and needs it but I don't think he remotely grasps what it is.  Every so often we have touched it (as I assume he has with others) and those moments are almost emotional "no go" zones for him, he can barely think of them.  They're maybe 1% of our relationship. Unfortunately the fact that they have occurred at all is very potent for me, and it is hard for me to accept that very low ceiling is there.