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Skills we were never taught
98
A 3 Minute Lesson
on Ending Conflict
Communication Skills-
Don't Be Invalidating
Listen with Empathy -
A Powerful Life Skill
Setting Boundaries
and Setting Limits
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Author Topic: Need boundary ideas  (Read 581 times)
Jessica84
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« Reply #30 on: June 18, 2015, 03:02:26 AM »

Hi Patient,

What kind of relationship are you looking to have with him? A lifelong buddy-type of friendship or a friendship that's secretly hoping for a lifelong romantic commitment? The latter has the potential of causing you inner conflicts and your boundaries will become much harder to enforce... .because a part of you won't want to.

Can you see yourself being best friends with him while he sees other women, as long as you aren't intimate with him?

Yet, just "being" in the relationship is extremely hard because he likes to extract intimate feelings from me on terms that feel unfair, and require boundaries.

What are the intimate feelings? Are we talking sexual, spiritual, something else?

What are the terms that feel unfair?
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patientandclear
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« Reply #31 on: June 18, 2015, 04:17:19 AM »

Hi Patient,

What kind of relationship are you looking to have with him? A lifelong buddy-type of friendship or a friendship that's secretly hoping for a lifelong romantic commitment? The latter has the potential of causing you inner conflicts and your boundaries will become much harder to enforce... .because a part of you won't want to.

Can you see yourself being best friends with him while he sees other women, as long as you aren't intimate with him?

No, definitely not.  I am not going to be his best friend looking on while he declares love for and prioritizes other women.  Why not? Well, he blew into my life, declared a passionate romantic and sexual love for me, staked a big claim, and then utterly failed to take responsibility for that and has made nearly no effort to make good on those commitments.  It rips my guts out watching him do the same with other women.  It plays on a rejection track in my head that does a ton of damage.  I absolutely will not do that.  I am not strong or impervious enough to deflect all the rejection and betrayal trauma that flows from it.

Yet, just "being" in the relationship is extremely hard because he likes to extract intimate feelings from me on terms that feel unfair, and require boundaries.

What are the intimate feelings? Are we talking sexual, spiritual, something else?

What are the terms that feel unfair?

It feels both unfair and dishonest.  I feel like he takes all the intimate connection you would have with a spouse, but gives no acknowledgement of what he's doing or of the significance of the relationship. It feels like there is a fundamental dishonesty where he is doing one thing with me but saying he's doing something else, which is a device to evade responsibility and risk.

What are the intimate feelings?  Our thing without a name (a member who used to post here called it an "unship" is patently, palpably romantic.  My sense is that he is constantly running through a subconscious loop where he feel attracted to me, then imposes a mental line, then attributes to me the desire to cross that line when, in most instances, it comes from him, and then rejects me and my "incursion" and feels a lot of relief.  My love for him becomes a sort of insurance policy that he can touch when it makes him feel better but he never has to play the same role for me.

I wrote him at one point that I'd realized that this was more special to me than it was to him, and his answer was "you're not wrong but you're not right."  It is, but it isn't.  In those moments when he thinks I don't want him romantically, his romantic fires come roaring back (according to what he said this spring in our series of calls).  But the moment he thinks I want him, the curtain comes down.  The feelings coming from his are not not romantic, is sort of the best I can do, but he can only feel them when he feels safe from it coming true.



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123Phoebe
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« Reply #32 on: June 18, 2015, 05:01:28 AM »

I feel like he takes all the intimate connection you would have with a spouse, but gives no acknowledgement of what he's doing or of the significance of the relationship.

He can't take what you're not willing to offer.  Spouse intimacy?
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Jessica84
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« Reply #33 on: June 18, 2015, 07:15:14 AM »

Thanks for clarifying. Yuck, I'm so sorry. I've dealt with the same "have his cake and eat it too" man - always wanting what he can't have - the thrill of the chase, the boredom once he's caught me. It's all part of the push/pull. On again/off again, friends w/benefits, friends only, real r/s again... .His push/pull unfortunately pushed and pulled my values all over the place, and my boundaries went right out the window.

This was my concern for you. Because I did this for years. It was madness.

I had wanted him in my life, but at what cost? I felt sad, used and confused. What I wanted within my reach but I could never grasp it. So the last time my uBPDbf pulled the "we're just friends" card when we were clearly more, I told him I don't sleep with my friends. And I stopped. Then came his ugly texts, then his flirty texts and booty call attempts, then his attempts to make me jealous, then inviting me to lunch, hugs that lingered too long which I stopped, then his angry calls or ugly texts again... .I wasn't taking any of the bait. I acted like an appropriate "friend" and nothing more. He realized he didn't want that anymore. I told him he pushed me away, but I'm still here. I'll be your friend til the end. How much of me you get depends on you. He finally stopped that nonsense and we're together now.

I think this is called an extinction burst. One day, he finally opened up... .confessed some weird explanation about the FWB thing... .that he was really "screwed up" and felt I deserved better... .that he wanted me to move on, find someone better, but also never wanted to lose me. BPD logic? That being "friends" to him meant I'd always be in his life, no matter what since relationships don't always last... .but that he might as well sleep with me until I found someone better... .more BPD logic? I told him no it doesn't work that way. Not for me. Not anymore. Yes, you are one hot mess... .but I love you. Now knock it off.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

I guess I needed to pull back physically and emotionally so I could treat him as I would any other friend, at last protecting myself and my values. I needed to drop the fear of losing him. I needed to accept our r/s had changed and that one or both of us might date someone else. I had to visualize that. None of it was easy, but all of it was necessary. So my boundary was to cut off the intimacy I feel only belongs inside a romantic r/s... .What would yours look like?
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patientandclear
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« Reply #34 on: June 18, 2015, 09:15:55 AM »

I feel like he takes all the intimate connection you would have with a spouse, but gives no acknowledgement of what he's doing or of the significance of the relationship.

He can't take what you're not willing to offer.  Spouse intimacy?

Whence this thread. I was completely gone for a long time because I realized the above dynamic and chose to change what I offered, and he cut me out. He later made a compelling plea to not through our whole r/ship away just because he struggles with the idea of being my romantic partner. For a variety of reasons I feel it may be worth trying some connection, but as MaybeSo said, he is very seductive and I need some ideas about how to "not offer" the spousal intimacy I feel he unfairly takes when I enter this with no sense of limits.
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patientandclear
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« Reply #35 on: June 18, 2015, 09:48:41 AM »

Thanks for clarifying. Yuck, I'm so sorry. I've dealt with the same "have his cake and eat it too" man - always wanting what he can't have - the thrill of the chase, the boredom once he's caught me. It's all part of the push/pull. On again/off again, friends w/benefits, friends only, real r/s again... .His push/pull unfortunately pushed and pulled my values all over the place, and my boundaries went right out the window.

This was my concern for you. Because I did this for years. It was madness.

I had wanted him in my life, but at what cost? I felt sad, used and confused. What I wanted within my reach but I could never grasp it. So the last time my uBPDbf pulled the "we're just friends" card when we were clearly more, I told him I don't sleep with my friends. And I stopped. Then came his ugly texts, then his flirty texts and booty call attempts, then his attempts to make me jealous, then inviting me to lunch, hugs that lingered too long which I stopped, then his angry calls or ugly texts again... .I wasn't taking any of the bait. I acted like an appropriate "friend" and nothing more. He realized he didn't want that anymore. I told him he pushed me away, but I'm still here. I'll be your friend til the end. How much of me you get depends on you. He finally stopped that nonsense and we're together now.

I think this is called an extinction burst. One day, he finally opened up... .confessed some weird explanation about the FWB thing... .that he was really "screwed up" and felt I deserved better... .that he wanted me to move on, find someone better, but also never wanted to lose me. BPD logic? That being "friends" to him meant I'd always be in his life, no matter what since relationships don't always last... .but that he might as well sleep with me until I found someone better... .more BPD logic? I told him no it doesn't work that way. Not for me. Not anymore. Yes, you are one hot mess... .but I love you. Now knock it off.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

I guess I needed to pull back physically and emotionally so I could treat him as I would any other friend, at last protecting myself and my values. I needed to drop the fear of losing him. I needed to accept our r/s had changed and that one or both of us might date someone else. I had to visualize that. None of it was easy, but all of it was necessary. So my boundary was to cut off the intimacy I feel only belongs inside a romantic r/s... .What would yours look like?

That makes a lot of sense.  When I tried that 18 months ago, he was seeing someone else, and cut me off entirely. He was really mad and really hurt.  When he reached out a bit later, I was warm but told him I didn't want to see him or be in regular communication unless something had changed.  He didn't communicate again for many months.  I think the difference btwn what I did (and what my BPD guy did) and your r/ship, Jessica, is that you confronted the "friends" thing immediately with appropriate limits.  When he first used it with me, we weren't actually having sex (we'd just gotten back in touch) and I thought "yes, right, we're friends, we're seeing what this is, no worries."  But I didn't realize he was putting a safe ceiling on our thing, sort of in order to make intimacy possible.  So when the r/ship proceeded from there to be very intimate-feeling, deep-feeling, and (weirdly) exclusive, I assumed he saw it as I did--meaning a lot more.  Thus when I realized he was seeing someone else it felt like a big actual betrayal, even if technically, no rules were broken.

Anyway, when I had to deal with the implications of the "friends" limit, it was more of an apocalyptic end.  Whereas you really dealt with it "in place," without a huge reaction, and counter-reaction.  That's what I'm seeking now -- to deal with this in place, put limits that match what he says, and still maintain a warm, not bitter contact.  I wish I'd been much clearer much earlier that if the limit is "friends" you don't get that kind of intimate access to me.  I sent a mixed signal for a long time that I would participate in that kind of unacknowledged partnership.
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MaybeSo
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« Reply #36 on: June 18, 2015, 10:07:38 AM »

Excerpt
It feels both unfair and dishonest.  I feel like he takes all the intimate connection you would have with a spouse, but gives no acknowledgement of what he's doing or of the significance of the relationship.

It feels this way because that is exactly what he is offering,  he is using romantic attachments and depends on them as regulatory objects.  He is not showing up for a real, mutual, adult relationship.  This is what you need to get.  He is using you.  He is using women.  He is USING.  Like a drug addict "uses".  That doesn't make him a bad person.  It makes him a wounded person who has found a way to self-regulate by using romantic attachments or intense highly mirroring connections. Some would call it 'supply'. I use the language of attachment trauma.  But have no doubt, he is wounded.  He can seduce and romance in a way that feels like a peak experience, and it probably is.  Some may look back on expereinces with our guys and think... .wow, that was the best love affair I ever had... .and leave it at that.   And, that isn't such a bad thing... .it's bad when it's with a woman who really expects him to do more than that, and keeps expecting it.   Then it becomes very very painful.  It feels unfair b/c it is.  No one wants to be used.  If you engage with him expecting him to NOT do that, to not have the limit or ceiling that he has... .you will always be hurt because you are not taking care of yourself.  These are wounded people.  They will make promises they can't keep... .they will dance and dance hard for what they need.  :)on't make that about love.  See it as a frightened child that needs an attachment object to not feel alone in the dark... .they feel not real without it.  :)on't underestimate the desperation that drives the addiction. But don't romantisize it, either.   This isn't about us, P&C.  

I chose to engage with my partner with more and more clarity about what he really was doing.  What his wound was, what he does to manage it, the way he 'uses' women.  It doesn't make him a bad person.  It just makes him NOT available for an adult relationship, he is using to regulate more the way an infant would, but he's a grown man and very seductive.  YOU MUST SEE THAT.  If you refuse to see that, because it hurts too much... .then you will continue to be traumatised b/c you are unwilling to take care of yourself.  You have to really dig deep P&C, and do the hard work of grieving your losses.  The loss is... .he is not who you thought he was... .a grown man who may be the love of your life and will show up like securely attached person and do a reciprocal relationship with you.  It does hurt him when you refuse to do this with him b/c you are refusing to be his supply.  He needs more people in his life that will interact with him authentically, which means refusing to be his supply.  But there are too many women out there willing to be supply.   This could mean NC, it's up to you.   I am still in some contact b/c I SEE who my person is, the good, the bad, and the ugly... .and there is still love there.  I just don't project romantic fantasies onto him anymore.  He is not my knight in shining armour, never was.  That doesn't exist anyway.   He has shown me he is not a stable person in a relationship.  Your guy has shown you that, too.  It's not personal to you or me... .these are just two guys who can't be in a stable, traditional relationship. But they need supply.  They are good at it.  They need superficial, romantic, attachment... .once it taps into something intimate, they are not available, they will detach.  It would take huge effort for them to change... .huge effort.

I actually stayed and witnessed up-close and personal, my person pursuing and declaring great love to other women. Yes it is hurtful.  I also saw the cookie cutter aspect of it.  The same idealization.  The same honeyed words.  The same intensity and obssession for a short time.  Then he leaves them, too.  It was actually exactly what I needed to see.  He didn't behave any differently with the other gals, than he did with me.  So what if he finds someone eventually who he is willing to finally settle down with and do the work and get better.  It's still more about him, than her.  I hope he does!  But I'm not going to play his game anymore.  He knows that.  I don't hate him.  But I see him.  He see's some of my crap, too.  I probably am the healthiest r/s he has had in his life, thus far.  But I'm not WITH him and playing the "we are going to live happily ever after game" with him, anymore.  

This isn't about rejection.  It's about growing up.  You can be with him all you like, in any capacity you can tolerate.  But he is who he is.  This is your best boundary, P&C, to see him for who he really is, all of it.   No projections. No fantasy of resolution.  That is what you need to work on, I think.  
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patientandclear
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« Reply #37 on: June 19, 2015, 09:37:37 AM »

MaybeSo, thank you yet again.  This is tremendously helpful.  That is the work I began when I tried to re-arrange our r/s 18 months ago when I realized the pattern of him being so close to me and yet seeking intimate r/ships with other women was continuing.  But our recent discussions have confused me about what could be good and what might be possible.  So your reminder that I really do know that there is this very low ceiling, and that I am not and am not going to be an exception, is very timely.

We are, for the first time, in "authentic relationship" land.  There is finally an honest understanding between us of what he does.  What I can't quite figure out concretely is what the implications of that are for how we relate and what we do with one another.  Jessica84's point, though, that I need to remove the intimate access that doesn't belong in an arrangement where he is not my open or tacit partner in an exclusive or even an open relationship (since I don't want to sign on for that), is very well taken.  I think in some sense, WHAT limits I settle on is less important than that there ARE limits that we can both see, that flow from the realization of what this relationship really is, and what it is not.

And MS, I really take your point that the ultimate "boundary" is being truthful with myself about what is likely to happen here and what he does, and not sliding into a "resolution fantasy."  I know a lot about what he does by now.  Each time we reunite it is with some new ingredients and "realizations" on both of our parts, and it is tempting to think that might make a difference.  This last time he had a very compelling story of the new framework he is applying to relationships and how he would never do again what he did before that hurt me.  But he still had the instinct to keep that ceiling very low, and to draw a line and push me out when we approached the ceiling.  The core instincts appear unchanged.  You're right.

Thank you so much.
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MaybeSo
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« Reply #38 on: June 19, 2015, 11:09:48 AM »

First, I am sorry if I offered confusing posts/comments... .I may be able to connect the dots if you let me know exactly where it got disjointed.

And we PM'd but I will post on this thread my final comments... .

You know... .I am a big advocate that all this stuff is mostly about attachment disorders and trauma, and no one "tries" to have an attachment disorder or trauma, so I try to address these issues with compassion for that reality.  And also, that our own attachment issues "hook" us into these sticky relationships and we have to own our  own stuff.

But, can I just say... .

He is lucky, and maybe not even really deserving, to have a bright woman like you... .so invested and embroiled in solving the mystery of HIM and his issues and so willing to work so hard to try  to maintain a connection with him despite his obvious attachment challenges.

At face value sometimes... .it really does ANGER me  how flipping BRILLIANT, BRILLIANT these folks (the men we are talking about, not a generic group)  are at so masterfully stimulating another person's attachment system with a never ending very seductive and  enticing bread crumb trail of mating gestures and mating cues that constantly promise or hints at promises of deep intimacy and deep connection... .when in the end you still have a person with a huge attachment disorder... .that just CANNOT STAY or BE still or be intimate with another person to save their own life.    

Yes, remove the intimate access that does not belong in a non intimate relationship.  Sounds good. Sounds logical. Ya... .do that!

But... .ummm,  it's a little like removing the olive oil from the pasta after it's already been tossed in together.  When you find a way to do that, please let me know.

He is good at this, folks.   He is good at engaging a person's attachment system. That's his thing.  Come on now... .he is really really good at this, and we do have attachment systems and they do respond to mating cues from an primary attachment figure.  You can't outsmart this.   He is after a certain kind of experience. And so are we, because we are human.

Eyes wide open.  I'm not saying there isn't the potential for your own personal growth here.  If you stay honest with yourself, there is potential for growth.  Yours, not his.  We can't even begin to imagine or assume he will grow from doing what he does yet again.  :)on't take risks based on what you think might happen for HIM... .concentrate on what YOU need to learn.  And... .You won't  be able to rig a pain free ride here.  It always has some pain. At least that has been my experience.  Engaging with a person you love that is disordered or has trauma IS painful, it should be painful, it's a crying shame... .even if you take the romantic angst out of it.  

There is no pain-free way to do this.  That has been my experience anyway.  I think I have grown from some of the pain, but, as I said... .I tend to do things he hard way,  I learn by doing.  Ouch.  But I'm still okay!





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123Phoebe
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« Reply #39 on: June 20, 2015, 07:21:25 AM »

P&C, it was important for me (and him!), to STOP talking about our "relationship" and START being present, emotionally available and approachable in it.  It's been super important and insightful in recognizing WHO I BECOME while in a close romantic relationship.  I tend to be needy, clingy, anxious, concerned, over-analytical, closed off, afraid when I sense a hint of change.  Those are my negative attributes that need to be curtailed.  They have nothing to do with him.

Being emotionally available doesn't mean "you're the love of my life, why why why" type of talky stuff.

Late yesterday afternoon we were watching a baby nuthatch learning to fly.  It flew into the window and became stunned.  I said, "I feel so sad and worried about the poor little thing, aw... ."; that was my experience.   Bf looked on his phone for answers on what to do in a situation like this; his experience.  We watched, waited, marveled and got excited as the baby nuthatch made improvements and eventually flew off!  Then we went out to eat.

To me, that is emotional connection and closeness.  It has nothing to do with a "low ceiling" or threshold.

Be who you are and let him be him.   







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patientandclear
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« Reply #40 on: June 20, 2015, 09:33:56 AM »

Phoebe, I did that. For a long time. What my guy did with that was: he moved to another city, refused to talk to me for 10 weeks when I gave the faintest hint that that might have a negative impact on our relationship (I asked why he was suddenly making this change, and said "something will be lost," and didn't hear from him for 10 weeks ... .Despite that he had asked me never to self-censor to avoid his bad feelings). I then kept showing up and entered a new period of not talking about our relationship. It was amazing. I could write the book on being emotionally available and open. What he did with that was start a serious r/ship with another woman, but still act like for all the world like I was his main person in the daily emails he sent me. We were planning a trip together. Meanwhile he was declaring passionate love to another woman and doing with her all the things he and I do that I thought were special and unique to us. And not telling me (I learned of this by a fluke--next time I would certainly not know).

Why I say it's a low ceiling is that no matter how close we became and how romantic the feeling, whenever he did things that were hurtful to me and to the r/ship, and I tried to raise them, I got clobbered with "this is just a friendship." It wasn't "just a friendship" as he eventually conceded this spring, and as I knew all along, but he uses that label to make sure I have no expectation of fidelity, of him sustaining anything with me. In an intimate r/ship, that is a low ceiling. I hear you that talking about a r/ship is not the same as having one. I would say I erred on the extreme end of never talking to him about what we were doing, just being in it and participating and being open (his favorite word besides intimate). We only were talking about the nature and terms of our r/ship this spring because his hurtful choices caused me to pull away and I was pretty much done, and he wanted back in, and we were trying to see if there is any point in continuing.

I love your approach. I used it. Unlike your BF, my guy took advantage of my openness and availability to arrange a lifestyle that really hurts me. If I go back into that with openness and no limits, knowing what he does, haven't I done this to myself this time?

I wish he were not someone who would develop a passionate love r/ship and keep me on the side sort of faking me out about what's going on, but he is. Knowing that, how can I just re-enter our r/ship with no limits and giving him the emotional access he had to me before? Believe me, that is tempting. And it is what he wants. I'm good at it. He just takes terrible advantage of it. Last time to be fair to him, I hadn't been explicit about what would hurt me, and my needs and expectations. This time I feel I have to be--otherwise he will lose me again without knowing exactly why (this is his critique of how I handled our last break--never told him what was wrong in time for him to fix it).

I'm looking for a way to still be me, and us, when we are together (in person, phone, letter), so, not limiting the quality of our thing together; but not plunging back into a de facto unacknowledged primary r/ship that he will then supplement with other love affairs. How to manage both requires some creative ideas.

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« Reply #41 on: June 20, 2015, 10:10:08 AM »

First, I am sorry if I offered confusing posts/comments... .I may be able to connect the dots if you let me know exactly where it got disjointed.

No, sorry!  I meant that my last few engagements with the BPD guy in my life have been confusing.  Which is actually what you are getting at in your last post.  It seems so sincere.  He pours out things that are new and different and (it feels, anyway) cannot possibly be offered to multiple women.  My gut says we have a special connection.  My mind has a lot of information screaming that it is NOT special.  Ergo: confusing.  And hard (at least for me) to dismiss out of hand.  When I do turn away from his overtures like this, I end up feeling huge doubt, wondering if I precluded growth, rebuffed a real chance for it to be different.  Which is why this other approach -- staying in some kind of connection and actually, clearly, seeing it for what it is, let it be what it is -- may work best for me.

How you're handling it is brave, MS.  I agree, caring about people and trying to figure things out carries a risk of pain and hurt.  Trying to make those good risks rather than stupid pain ... .that's where I am right now.

Thanks for saying that it's not easy to avoid confusion with these men, and not easy to find a good path.  I don't want to be manipulated and he does manipulate.  It's hard to find the core truth in all the manipulation.  I don't want to be an idiot who reads too much into his platitudes, which I have been in the past.  At the same time there are moments of real integrity in our relationship on both of our parts.  It's been hard for me to discern what it is and what it can be.  I think I have more clarity now.

Thanks also for saying he is lucky.  I agree Smiling (click to insert in post) I don't think he processes what we have and what we do as "love."  Not romantic love.  It's a great shame because I think it's what he is actually searching for.  But if he is convinced otherwise, that IS a low ceiling.
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« Reply #42 on: June 20, 2015, 06:04:09 PM »

123phobe,

Excerpt
Be who you are and let him be him.



I could be wrong, but I strongly suspect that the person I have known and the person P&C is talking about, are quite a bit different in presentation than your partner.  Some of us on this board have seemed to engage with men or women who are really super good at high intensity seduction but can never ever stay put in a relationship with one person despite best attempts even on the part of both people to try. When I say seduction, I'm not talking about just sexual seduction.  I mean spiritually, intellectually, logistically, narratively, biographically... .this is your soulmate... .seduction.   That's the presentation.  

The adaptive strategy they have found is to utilize high intensity but ultimatley superficial connections with a short shelf-life as a way to self-regulate.  I have spoken to my person, and he has many times admitted that he does this.  For many folks on this board, affairs and addiction isn't an issue. For many it is.

The folks we speak about on this very large board have a wide variety of presentations.

In my case, I am lamenting that there is a low ceiling for intimacy even though the seductive quality of the interaction can FEEL as though something really intimate  and deep is going on.  That's not to say there is NO intimacy or connection at all.  There also may be short moments where we dive into truly deep intimacy and truth telling is ventured and the experience is real... .but then everything  gets shot back up to the surface right away where it's safe and where it gets dissociated, like in never really happened.

There is an addictive process going on, hence the constant search for 'the perfect one' and that necessarily prevents normal, developmentally appropriate, stable intimacy.  That's just what happens when an active addiction is present.

Excerpt
What he did with that was start a serious r/ship with another woman, but still act like for all the world like I was his main person in the daily emails he sent me.

Bingo, I could have written that sentence myself.  I gave my partner all the freedom and lack of 'analysis' he wanted... .and it was only then that he moved from having emotional affairs to actually sleeping with another woman while leaving me in the dark for weeks.  Ouch.  This is just what he does.  It's not because I talked too much, though I arguably lean anxious especially under these circumstances. But that’s not why he does what he does.  His attachment strategies where there long before I came along. Indeed, the more intimacy available between us eg., the longer we knew each other and as a byproduct could see into each other… the more symptomatic he got. That makes sense too, if you understand disorganized attachment.

The borderline personality organization lacks the capacity for internal self-regulation. In order to maintain a regulated emotional and psychological state, the borderline personality structure relies entirely on the external regulatory support provided by the fused psychological state with the attachment figure. However, perfect and continual psychological fusion with the attachment figure is neither healthy nor possible. Normal range and healthy relationships involve reciprocal exchanges between separate developmentally healthy relationship experiences. (Kohut, 1971; Tronick, 2003). Within healthy relationships, the two relationship partners seek to maintain a more or less coordinated psychological state…with minor “breach and repair” sequences…-Childress, Foundations-An Attachment-Based Model of Parental Alientation, 2015.

He needs a certain kind of  symbiotic interaction to stay regulated.  No one can do it perfect enough all the time for him. So he moves to the next and the next high intensity experience b/c that's the symbiotic connection he is looking for because he stays feeling okay.  There are 2 times in our life where we experience intense symbiosis. 1- In the mother-child diad in infancy, and 2-when we are falling in love during courtship.  It is not sustainable, we are wired to move on to the next developmental level and the intimacy that comes when we give up the fantasy of symbiosis in exchange for a 'real' relationship... .warts and all, that no longer relies on symbiotic fusion.  My partner cannot do that. The loss of symbiotic fusion is always a bit depressing for everyone... .but for some, it leads to massive dysregulation and crushing abandonment depression. So, he leaves and finds another woman to fall in love with again, which regulates him and keeps him from crashing.  

I like your story of how you and your partner rescued the baby bird together.  I am happy for you that you and your person have established stability enough for intimacy to grow and be present.  I will assume there is not active addictive process going on for either one of you for that to happen, and that is wonderful. It's the kind of success story we love to hear.    

But it's isn't always the case for everyone.   :'(
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123Phoebe
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« Reply #43 on: June 22, 2015, 08:06:59 AM »

MaybeSo,  I respect your viewpoints and look forward to reading them!  There have been many times, I've wondered what you might do or say in a particular situation and have hoped you'd chime into certain threads to offer some perspective.

His attachment strategies where there long before I came along.

Absolutely.  All of ours were.  So, upon realizing this, I decided (chose) to look into my own.  Something rang true when I read "When you point one finger, there are three pointing back at you".  My attachment strategies can be pretty far out, too, so this is where I put my focus.  Not so much from an outside source anymore (clinical view), but from my own thought processes, the feelings that arise and what I feel compelled to say and do in light of these things.

Indeed, the more intimacy available between us eg., the longer we knew each other and as a byproduct could see into each other… the more symptomatic he got. That makes sense too, if you understand disorganized attachment.

I guess I don't understand disorganized attachment to the extent that you do.  I don't even want to where he's concerned!  I don't want to see into him, I want to be with him, I enjoy being with him, I love him.

I've mentioned a few times around here that I believe shared values have a lot to do with a successful relationship. 

He is lucky, and maybe not even really deserving, to have a bright woman like you... .so invested and embroiled in solving the mystery of HIM and his issues and so willing to work so hard to try  to maintain a connection with him despite his obvious attachment challenges.

This is not meant as a slam against you or P&C... .  that I would in no way feel "lucky" to have my significant other studying me, searching for ways to maintain a connection to me.  I'm pretty sure it would come across feeling inauthentic and disingenuous, like there is something definitely missing = him.

Thanks also for saying he is lucky.  I agree Smiling (click to insert in post) I don't think he processes what we have and what we do as "love."  Not romantic love. 

Is it?

The folks we speak about on this very large board have a wide variety of presentations.

I get that our guys are all different and will show up in different ways.  I can't help but think though, Wow, but here we all are.  On a very large board that has taken the time and the heart(!) to provide information and methods for dealing with all this.  A board for us!

There is hope!  I am so grateful  

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patientandclear
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« Reply #44 on: June 22, 2015, 09:15:14 AM »

Hi Phoebe ... . 

For what it's worth, I bring my studying & processing here ... .I don't display that IN my relationship, when I have one, with this guy wBPD.  Literally the ONLY times we have talked about our relationship since we reconnected after the initial breakup, were when he wanted to discuss getting back together; when he impulsively decided to change plans and actually move to a new city (after telling me he was planning on coming back to the city where we lived, after prolonged traveling) & I asked very lightly why he was making that move, given the likely impact on his important relationships (a negative impact that has apparently come true in spades and which he now regrets -- I have said nothing about how I predicted this, but my point is, my prediction about the impact was accurate); and when I needed to step back because he was having a passionate affair with another woman while maintaining and indeed trying to expand an intimate connection with me.  And then when he asked to be back in touch this spring after many months of NC.

In our actual relationship -- not the moments when we are discussing whether to have one -- we do zero of this.  Nor is it filled with effort or a sense that I am managing him or the connection, because I'm not.  I think you'd find that your approach to day to day interaction with your guy is very similar to mine.  I have zero agenda.  I don't need him to do anything for me or be anyone in particular to me.  I love being with him, for itself.  He knows that and I think that is why he consistently seeks out time with and connection to me.  I'm super easy for him to be with.  I'm smother-free.

And I think the point MaybeSo is making, is that with this guy in my life, that has NOT translated into him settling over time into a stance of greater comfort with our intimate connection.  Instead, it's the opposite.  As he came to trust me more, his push episodes/mechanisms got more and more wildly at odds with a sustainable monogamous intimate relationship.  It's not something I can affect with my approach.  My approach is very, very open.  I wasn't messing with him, his life or his mind.  I just like him.  It didn't make the relationship become viable.  He wants to return to that territory now -- and I understand why, it must be super pleasant for him when I engage him like that.  But he didn't take care of that.  Not remotely.  In fact he shamed my affection for him whenever there was the slightest hint that that might be expected to affect any of his decisions.
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MaybeSo
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Players only love you when they're playing...


« Reply #45 on: June 23, 2015, 04:33:17 AM »

I think we are all saying the same thing, but from different perspectives.

In deed, my comments on this thread in some ways would be appropos of the Undecided or Leaving board, but it ended up here b/c of the nature of the post.

There is no doubt in my mind that I have had moments of connection and intimacy with the person who  I have known for over 8 years now, that appears to have symptoms of BPD.  It is also true that there is at times a very superficial quality to the charm/seduction aspect.  It's not all one or the other... .there have been both.

I have made many mistakes along my journey... .I am in no way without flaws in my relational ability and I have pretty good insight into my attachment style and it's weak points.  Having 'studied' not just my partner, but attachment and personality and trauma professionally and in working with adults and children in this area every day... .there are some research based understandings that I have found helpful.

I, too, have many posts describing the good points, good qualities, and joyful and enriching shared times in my relationship. I have many fond memories and many significant insights gleaned from knowing and being an important part of this person's life.  I have had good times with him.  We have accomplished things together.  I pray he finds peace, and I support him in his growth, regardless.   I also see and work with personality disorders in my profession, he knows this of course. He didn't have to choose a woman to be with for 8 years with expertise in and interest in this field... .I think he chose me for his own reasons.   He may have not enjoyed some moments of scrutiny that came with it... .but hey, no one's perfect.  You dance with the one you brung.  In all seriousness my sharing of anything clinical backed-off years ago as I understood that of course, no one wants to be labeled.

In P&Cs case, and many others on this board, the constant need to find 'the one' is of course very destructive and damaging to any relationship.  It's very very difficult if not impossible to sustain intimacy if there is no foundation of basic trust.  What ever level of intimacy is there... .is continually damaged and interrupted.  The bargain is always,  be the perfect regulatory object... then you can trust me... .if you keep me happy (regulated).  But there is no such thing as the perfect regulatory object. I tried.  :)idn't work.  I stopped trying so hard... .and I got better at taking care of myself, and he kept looking for the perfect one.  And still is.  

So, there is never any foundation of trust with which to build.  I have followed P&Cs story for a long time, it always had a lot of similarities.  Again, this is not true for all folks on this board.  I again am reminded of Steph... .who really was the first one this board to really inspire my close examination of my own codependent traits and anxious leanings that did not cause my partner's problems... .but certainly didn't help our interactions.  The self examination and work I have done on ME, has been immeasurably beneficial.  It helped me in my relationship, it helped me personally, it helped professionally.  The 'crazy' drama-trauma stuff between me and him stopped years ago.  To a large degree, b/c of the skills I learned on this board.  I have heard him tell me very painful things... .like he has slept with another woman... .and we discuss it quietly... .sadly.  No circular arguments. No fireworks.

Just him being him and me being me. And both of us crying as I had to say goodbye to him yet again.  No one was analyzing anything. We were just being in another moment of suffering together.

So, after all these years... .still... .he becomes horribly dysregulated and leaves to find the next perfect one as his number one way to treat his pain. Steph's husband never did that... .he would get horribly depressed, horribly dyregulated, ... end up in the ER, the whole gamut.  But, he wasn't leaving her every 6 to 24 months to find 'the one'.  That just wan't his presentation, that just wasn't the adaptation he used to self-medicate.  

If I am pointing a finger or blaming... .I blame childhood trauma, intergenerational trauma, sexual abuse, emotional abuse and neglect and all the damage it does to children and families.   In many ways... .I am amazed at the myriad of ways children in even the worst of circumstances grow and adapt and finds a way to survive AT ALL.  There are much worse things a person could do as a survival adaptation... .than to be on a constant journey to find 'the one great love' of their lives.  Sure, it hurts the individual who loves him and is led to imagine and plan a life together as partners, and is led to believe they will be growing old together, watching our children grow and sharing a life together.   Of course it hurts to let go of that.  It hurts him, too.   Of course it does.  But, I don't harbor ill will toward him at all.  I do not like some of the things he does, I don't like that he often manipulates and lies to sustain his attachment figures to him.  I  really don't like that behavior... .in the most non clinical of terms... .it sucks.   It's not cool.  He should continue to work as hard as he can to not have to lie or manipulate to get his needs met.  He should never stop trying to get better, nor should I.   He should do it for himself and for the people who love him.  He should continue to work hard so that he can be at peace.  I do not hate him or harbor ill will toward him.   I do harbor ill will toward this illness.  No doubt about it.

There are worse things a person could do than to be on a life long quest to find 'the one'.  No one would be happier for him than me if he actually finds it.
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