Help me prepare for MC on Thursday to talk about "terrorism" issue

[formflier]

For history of this lovely topic... .check out the link below.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=278473.0;all

Thanks to Waverider for using his amazing skills to distill this down to a couple words that we all understand.  It is/was (my wife's tactics) an act of terrorism.  

The "Reagan doctrine"... .and really the doctrine of the United States is that you don't negotiate with terrorists... .terrorists that give up their ways have been allowed back into the fold... .terrorists that don't are opposed... .and dealt with.

Still turning over in my mind how this relates to my "response" to this.  But "appeasement" does't seem to have ever been an effective government policy... .I can't think of any examples in bpdfamily where appeasement (giving in to unreasonable demands) of a person that displays BPD traits... .has worked.  In fact... .it usually fuels the fire.

More to come... .the hope is that you guys can help me sharpen and focus me on what matters... .so I don't get distracted by sideshows my wife will try to introduce.

FF

[formflier]

 

So... .one option... .most likely this is the nuclear option... but since we are describing terrorism... .

In a bit less than a week... .all of the family people (adults) that are involved in this (got the email) will be together.  It's possible to get them all in a room (not saying this is wise)... .and air this thing out.

My goal would be to shine the light on this and to ask for support in keeping private things private... .to not encourage or participate in my wife divulging my private conversations to others. 

And... .to take steps... .to avoid exposing me (calling my house) to conversations about which husband is the worst husband... desires other women the most... etc etc... .

This option would fit with my nature... .to shine the light on ridiculous behavior... .to push people to make a decision on right or wrong... .and to not hide. 

Put your cards on the table.

Note:  I'm not recommending this... or saying it is wise... .I think most of you guys have sense of who I am and how I think... .

There is also a dynamic that I don't want to "feed"... .  In the past I would "fight back"... protest... jade... .etc etc.

pwBPD seem to "get" something from these interactions.

If they don't "get" something... .they usually burn out over time.  If they get the opposite of what they are looking for (pain... instead of "pleasure"... .could that help snuff this out quicker? 

Most things I have been ignoring... or not reacting to.

Last big "email thing" was months ago... .maybe 6... .where my wife... sends me a naked picture of another woman.  I had a conversation with her after that to clarify that I didn't want that... .never again want that... .and that my values are not to look at or think about sexual things with other women.  She didn't take it well... .sort of stood her ground... .I misinterpreted... .etc etc. 

I clarified that there is no interpretation I can think of that would make me want my wife to provide me images of other women to consider... .don't do it... .

She stood ground.

So... .we went to MC.  I clarified the message... stayed a bit more on topic.  MC is woman.  My wife seemed mortified to be discussing this in front of her.  I would not let the topic drop until I heard the words come out of my wife's mouth that I do not want her to send me images of other women (paraphrasing).

This has not happened since... .and really... this is the first discussion about another woman since then.  Also find it interesting that she has not alleged anything sexual (used to be common and graphic... .before the "picture incident"... .

So... .I'll quit typing for now... .looking for reactions.

FF

[Notwendy]

Terrorism is something my mother does as her way of keeping power and control. Sadly, it stems from her own lack of self and sense of personal power. There is nothing anyone can do to change her behavior. She knows how hurtful it is, and this is why she does it.

Her targets are things that have meaning to us, things we are attached to emotionally, because her aim is to hurt and control. So anything is fair game- possessions, jobs, family, friends. She even threatens" if you don't do what I say I will break your ( possession) or call up your friends, or get your father angry at you. This was terrifying to us as a kid, and so we toed the line.

This tactic worked so well from my mother that all I could do to protect myself was keep what was important away from her and let go of what I could not control. This is hard to do when living with someone. However, you can do things to protect your job by getting a PO box for mail, locking your computer, getting a separate e mail for business ( she has this one so get a different one) and keeping your job info as private as possible.

The only explanation I thing I would have is this- that your wife has shown you what she is capable of, and so, you have reasons to protect your privacy.

My mom thrives on telling personal information about me to people. She has said so much to her FOO about me that isn't true that I don't have a real relationship with them. I had to let go of caring what they think about me.

My mom will say anything and everything. All I can do is not tell her things that are important, but she is constantly fishing. I don't say anything to her that I would not care if it was on the evening news.

If I were to be at a family gathering of my mother's FOO, I would be polite, cordial and distant. They have already heard so much junk about me, that they are faced with two world views: Mom's and mine. They would have to decide that one of us is crazy. They are already so loyal to each other that this choice is determined. I have to let it go.

[Skip]

We all come to these boards to be centered and to get perspective.  

When we start using emotionally charged words like "rape" or "terrorism" or "vampire" we are moving far out of the realm of centering and perspective.

We are not hear to triangulate or create drama triangles. Drama triangles create fight, the parties get release from drama - not the resolution.

https://bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle

The aspect of your wife sending your emails is very serious and needs to be dealt with in a significant way - an effective way.

Why don't we drop the hyperbole and go forward with a more balanced and centered approach.  

[Notwendy]

I agree we should stay off the victim/drama triangle. The term I think was brought up as a description of the fear one can feel. Of course if we are in fear, it is our fear to deal with.

[formflier]

 

I agree... .is "bullying behavior"... or "threatening behavior" a better term.

Or... describe it as not being ok to say no.

If I say no... .my wife will (fill in the blank... with bad behavior)

I am much more interested in dealing with this in an effective way.

FF

[Skip]

I agree... .is "bullying behavior"... or "threatening behavior" a better term.

No drama.  How about "email incident".  

Help me prepare for MC on Thursday to talk about "terrorism" issue ) the email incident.

Switching gears to problem solving... what are the bad act(s) here, in rank order, and why are they bad? Short and to the point... .

Example:

emailing the kids? #1 Parentification.

reading your email? Distant #2  Not respectful.

contacting your professional/personal female friend? 3# Embarrassing. Needed resource.

What is a value that you both hold as important that has been violated by each?

[KateCat]

My experience has been exactly that of Notwendy. I too believe that your wife can and will "do anything and everything." That you can't control this. That you can't "shine a light" on it and thereby change it.

This seems to be something that people who've grown up with a parent like this know to their core. But we spouses often need years, or even decades, to accept this fully.

Will your wife really allow you to be a central figure in a close-knit community? How can you actually pull off something like that? Is it even possible to erect a wall of security and professionalism in this case?

Or do you need to let go of that dream? Could you use GI Bill education benefits to re-tool for a career that would be impervious to your wife's insecurities? (Database engineer? Paralegal? Accountant? Something not at all "sexy?"  

I hate to think of you spending more years in exhaustion and frustration. And I kind of tremble at the thought that you might actually land another leadership position. Because your wife is not growing any weaker or less driven to define and control you.

That outstanding recent post by babyducks. The one about "hemmed in ground." I think it's one for you to ponder before making any more decisions.  

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=278473.msg12635261#msg12635261

[Surg_Bear]

Skip, does this mean a job related private e mail is wrong?

Do our spouses have to see any e mails we send to the opposite gender?

Please explain- because I don't think I understand what you are asking. If we act so that our spouses are not threatened, are we being considerate or walking on eggshells?

Notwendy, the most important thing is not to think there is a universal truth at play here.   One wife might have a value system that accepts open relations - another might have a value system in line with Billy Graham.

Totally disagree.

There IS a universal truth here.  BPD or not, it is UNACCEPTABLE for a person to snoop into a spouse's work correspondence.  It is even more UNACCEPTABLE to steal the e-mail and use it for their twisted, delusional purposes.  Was this a US government e-mail?  That is a FEDERAL OFFENSE.

This is no longer a walking on eggshells, boundaries / validation BPD issue.

I'm going to stay hard and long on this line:

If I was helping someone get a job, and their spouse e-mailed me a response to a protected e-mail (suggesting a breach of work environment security), I would tell the person, and the spouse that this was unethical behavior, and that I would no longer participate in helping get that person a job.

FF- this is a non-negotiable boundary.  Keep your wife out of your computer.  She is trying to, and WILL destroy your career.  If you are OK with this- quit your career before it is destroyed by her.  If you are not OK with this- verbalize this boundary as law, and leave if it is violated again.

You are a self admitted "public" figure- and from what it sounds like, trying to remain in government.  Your behavior is not becoming a government official.

You left open access to your computer which is used for business / career, and hence, government.  I would not vote for you because of this.  I would not hire you because of this.

If I was the recipient of an e-mail from your wife- an e-mail that was job related, and supposed to be private and password protected, not only would I withdraw support for you I would encourage my constituents to do the same.  You cannot be trusted with a government office, if you allow your wife access to your work related stuff.

I cannot believe we have lost sight of how dangerous this whole scenario is for OUR COUNTRY, by focusing on preserving FF's marriage.

What FF's wife did crossed many boundaries and, in my opinion, violated a universal truth.

Having said all of this, FF:  I am sorry that you are having to deal with all of this.  As I read your recent posts, I can see numerous similarities between your impression of your wife, and mine of my wife. So, I feel I can relate on a deeply personal level.  These behaviors are maddening, and we have to make tough choices about how to deal with behaviors that really challenge core values and beliefs about marriage, love, honesty and transparency.  Persons in occupational positions of "power" / leadership who are also in a relationship with a pwBPD have added grief, I believe, because though it is not a diagnostic criteria for the disorder, I believe that BPD also has similarities with oppositional-defiant disorder in respect to "problems relating to- / with- people of authority."  There is an unspoken (or at times, screaming) battle over the perceived inequality of power and their resistance to authority - even though your authority only goes into effect after you leave the home. I can totally relate to your struggles, and if we were together, I'd give you a hug and offer to take you out for a PRIME steak.  I'm really sorry for all of this. 

Surg_Bear

[vortex of confusion]

Or... describe it as not being ok to say no.

If I say no... .my wife will (fill in the blank... with bad behavior)

My first thought when I read this was, ":)on't say no. Live no. Make sure that you make it perfectly clear that you will NOT accept this kind of behavior."

I have a FOO that is a lot like Notwendy and KateCat have described. There is no discussing this stuff. Trying to shine a light on things is ineffective because it will likely be twisted.

I have found that there are some situations where you have to decide a course of action and make it clear that this is going to be your course of action. Since boundaries are there to protect YOU, there is no need to discuss. You live them.

When the last e-mail incidents occurred, did she ever share enough information to help you understand her reasoning?

You mentioned that you told her that there is no instance where you would be okay with her sending you racy pics of other women. Is there any instance where you can think of it being okay for her to get into your private email and do what she did?

I think this situation boils down to how you can protect yourself moving forward.

She has a history of not following through on things that are said in MC. What makes you think that this time will be different? I think it is really important to have realistic expectations.

[KateCat]

I think it is really important to have realistic expectations.

I second this, and sadly concur with Surg-Bear's stark assessment of the career situation.

[formflier]

 

Couple things... .my wife acknowledges to me... .others... .and her family... .it is "common knowledge" that I am a different guy.

It has been long time since a "yelling incident" (on my part)... .or any sort of acting out.

It is part of the process of cleaning up my side of the street.  My wife can't "make me mad"... ."make me yell or act stupid".  I am in charge of my feelings and emotions... .nobody else.

In fact... .the acknowledge this the other day in our talk about the "email incident" (I like this term).

Other things that are different about me.  I rarely used to tell people no... .especially my wife.  That is common place now.  I am in charge of my boundaries and what I do.  I no longer over promise and under deliver. 

My goal is to do the opposite... .under promise and over deliver.

2

The password to my email has been an issue for about a year... little less.  She claims it was a "deal" about me moving back into the house... .that she would get unrestricted access.

There was no such deal.  I have been clear and unapologetic that I am in charge of my cyber security and privacy.  She has threatened all sorts of things if I don't give it up.

My offer on the table that I have said I would be happy to work with is that there be a trusted group of people that have access to my email... .and she can randomly go to them to gain read only access.  They will be in charge of making sure access is read only.

There is history here.  For a long time I did the "christian thing" from Biblical counseling where each party should have no secrets from each other... .complete access.  And... exactly this kind of thing happened... .things taken out of context... .rages... .double binds... .

So... .I have no problem with my wife monitoring me... .as long as my wife is being monitored as well.

How do I problem solve from there... .I have made the offer... .she has rejected it... and says only the password and unrestricted access solves it for her... nothing less.

My answer... .and my life... .is NO.

Hmmm... I'll cut this post here.  Thanks for help... .keep it coming...

FF

[formflier]

 

This was my private gmail account.  At this point in time... .it is/was the only email that I had

My .gov email was frozen because of termination (political thing).  County government... .not Federal.  I am very familiar with federal IT... .I was taking the county in the direction of better security... .eventual goal was "CAC" or "common access card" security to gain access.

My wife gained access to the ".org" server email (prior to .gov) and emailed several marriage counselors from there. 

That was when I slammed the door (so to speak) on any access at all.  She claimed (in and out of MC) that it was inadvertent... .in truth she is not technically savvy... .it is possible she bumbled her way into it... .but I doubt it.  Not provable.

This was about a year ago... probably a bit more.

My remedy was restricting access.

What I believe happened was I left a Chromebook logged in... and ran outside to handle a kid emergency/projects going on outside.  I intended to be outside for just a minute... .it went longer.  This is based on me looking at time emails were forwarded from my account to hers.

FF

[Skip]

what are the bad act(s) here, in rank order, and why are they bad? Short and to the point... .

Example:

emailing the kids? #1 Parentification.

reading your email? Distant #2  Not respectful.

contacting your professional/personal female friend? 3# Embarrassing. Needed resource.

What is a value that you both hold as important that has been violated by each?

FF, what are the bad acts here.  Can you spell them succinctly in some rank order.  I know what would concern me and in what order.  I know what some others would be concerned about.  With you, I only know that you're emotional and upset.

Truthfully - you seem more vested in the fight/drama than the solution.  I know that's hard to hear, and if that is where you need to be today, OK.

Maybe preparing for MC needs to wait a day or so.  

What do you think?

[formflier]

 

So... .there is some subterfuge here... .it is/was intentional.  I do not have any contact with previous department heads through their work email too dangerous for them.

That can be read by general public... .they are public records.  That means that political enemies can read them as well.

I am well aware of what kind of conversations constitute a public record (legally in my state) and don't go there in my private email.

Surg Bear brought up good points... .I think my comments have clarified the technicalities of the situation.

[formflier]

 

The "worst" thing is involving our kids.

This "habit" is not just email.

She will gather them... .from time to time and lecture them about why Daddy does this and that.  This is what Daddy thinks and cares about.    

So... .my number one answer... .that I am most upset about...

Is involving the kids... .lack of boundaries.


2nd issue is lack of respect for privacy or "my things".  This plays out in the email incident... and other things.  Such as:  I had several boxes of things from my office (my work office).  She comes in and starts going through them.  Says her intention is to consolidate them in one box.  

" I want to organize my own things... .so I know where things are.  Please leave them alone" (she doesn't speak and keeps looking)

"Please stop what you are doing... I am fine if you want to watch me organize my things... .if you want to be part of it.  I do not want you organizing my items for me... ."  She keeps going

"Stop what you are doing... "  She flings some items... .exclaims in a loud voice  "what is it you are hiding... .what is it that you don't want me to find... ." and stomps out of the room.

I see the same "attitude" on her part... .driving the behavior... .that she is entitled to snoop.  

In my world... privacy is not "hiding".

Last:  :)istant last... .is the desire to look... .or the looking.  I may be wrapping up 2 and 3 and need to separate them.

I can care less of she sees all of it... .someone needs to have a leash on her (that they can use) when she is doing it.

Not trying to be offensive... .but somehow if you guys can take my desire for a leash... .and translate that into problem solving... .that would be helpful.

I really don't care that she sees this stuff... .it is her actions after she "discovers" something... that bother me.

FF

[formflier]

 

So... .I don't "feel" emotional... .or looking for drama.  

I am most likely not the best judge of myself right now.  I'm leaning on you guys to help keep me productive.

I "feel" resolute... .

I "feel" like facing a bully on the school yard.  I mostly ignored them... .very different than running from them.

I stood up to several... .when I had had enough... .ended up punching a few in the nose.

Backing down leads nowhere good.

Drawing a line in the sand that I can't back down from is not smart.

I need help sorting those two statements out... .they both seem true to me... .and both seem applicable... .

FF

[vortex of confusion]

She will gather them... .from time to time and lecture them about why Daddy does this and that.  This is what Daddy thinks and cares about.    

So... .my number one answer... .that I am most upset about...

Is involving the kids... .lack of boundaries.

What can you realistically do about this? What was the result of asking her to stop or trying to get her to stop involving the kids?

Trying to make her stop this doesn't work. How is your relationship with your kids? Do your kids believe her or treat you differently based on the stuff that she tells them? Do you have a relationship with your kids that is separate from her?

I can care less of she sees all of it... .someone needs to have a leash on her (that they can use) when she is doing it.

How realistic is this given what you know? How realistic is this given her past and present behavior?

Not trying to be offensive... .but somehow if you guys can take my desire for a leash... .and translate that into problem solving... .that would be helpful.

I think solving this problem will require you to stop focusing on her and what she is or isn't doing. It isn't realistic to look for solutions that she is going to willingly participate in on a consistent basis. What can YOU do differently moving forward?

I really don't care that she sees this stuff... .it is her actions after she "discovers" something... that bother me.

I think this kind of begs the question a bit. You can't trust her to not react. You can't trust her to not make mountains out of molehills. Lock down access for your safety. This is playing into the circular stuff where she demands access. You give it to her. She reacts. You lock down access. She accuses you of hiding things and so it goes. What do you think will protect YOU?

[Skip]

The "worst" thing is involving our kids.

This "habit" is not just email.

She will gather them... .from time to time and lecture them about why Daddy does this and that.  This is what Daddy thinks and cares about.    

Focus.  Great.

Parental alienation.  

You best course of action is with the kids.  This is a drama triangle.  She is putting them in the role between the two of you.

How are they as rescuers?  Do they buy into her victim story? Take up for her?  A lot?  Not at all?  Somewhere in between?

[formflier]

How are they as rescuers?  Do they buy into her victim story? Take up for her?  A lot?  Not at all?  Somewhere in between?

Not sure about rescuers... .I don't see them as that.  Right now... they lay low and avoid work... .until she flips out... .yells and screams... .then... .they know they have to do it.  Or... .if one of us stands over them... .they will do it... .

I don't know if they buy it... .I don't ask... .

The definitely do not "take up for her"... .I don't ask them to "make rulings"... .or decide. 

To me... .the kids seemed "quieter" yesterday.  I attempted to engage each of them... .to be warm... .ask about their day... what is on their mind... .give pats on the back.  I'm assuming their quietness is part of the emails... .but... I'm assuming.

FF

[formflier]

Parental alienation.  

  This is a drama triangle. 

Should I use these terms in MC. 

I need to be careful that I don't come of as "I don't do this... .so you shouldn't"

Do I restrict this to "email incident" or try to bring in "pattern of behavior".

Gut reaction:  Email incident is fresh and relevant... .stick with that.  I'm open to other ideas and suggestions.

FF

[Skip]

I don't ask them to "make rulings"... .or decide. 

The persecutor doesn't do this, the victim does.

The definitely do not "take up for her"... .

Good. Do you have any sense of how much each of them buy into these things (without asking). Do any of them see you as not treating their mom properly.

Some Lessons to help (going forward)in this thread... .

In additional to all the PAS material here, there is a section toward the end of the article about how to not be drawn into being seen as the Persecutor. It might be helpful to read as part of this tactics discussion.

In short, don't take an responsive action that a persecutor would take.  Change the dynamics.

https://bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle

[formflier]

You give it to her. 

One correction... .she took access. 

Granted... .I did not protect it good enough... .my fault.

I gave her access willingly for a protracted period of time... .ended over a year ago.  I did this  "once"... she had access for over a year... .

I took it back. 

Again... .yes... .my fault for leaving a chink in armor.

That is over... .

FF

[formflier]

Good. Do you have any sense of how much each of them buy into these things (without asking).

I don't think they do buy into it.  I think they are tired of the drama and fighting.  They have all experienced the same accusations... .(publicly)... .that I have.  So... .wife is loud and saying such and such kid is doing something to "make her mad" and that she knows "why" they are doing this that or the other.

Then kids launch into JADE fest... .protesting... it escalates.  I've attempted to introduce the idea of not jading... .but as a life lesson... not as a "response to mommy".

Do any of them see you as not treating their mom properly.

I don't think so... .anymore.  They have seen me behave and respond badly to her in the past.  I don't act that way anymore.

Ashamed to say it... .but I'm a big guy... .I have a loud voice... .when I would get tired of listening to her crap... .I could drown out her voice with mine... .it worked for the short term solution... .bad long term.

I suspect several of them wonder "why I put up with it".

Her sister is divorced and they see their cousins as having fund with mommy... .and then going to have fun with daddy... .

Their cousins have no accountability... .because each parent fears being "the heavy"... .times when they have tried to be the heavy... .the kids pitched a fit... said they didn't feel safe with "the heavy"... .counselors say kids need to feel safe... .so... .they get to be lazy... safe kids... that play lots of video games... .and barely eek by in school.

Sorry for the speech... .I love them to death... .I have seen how divorce with a "BPDish" woman in the picture affects kids... .

It is far worse... .far worse... than what has happened... .up until this point... .with my kids.

I want to make sure my actions... .drive things in the right direction... .as much as I can.

FF

[vortex of confusion]

As I read the triangles that Skip posted, I began wondering if you could reframe what you are saying to fit that.

So, what are your needs? What do you need that she violated?

What are your specific struggles?

What can you do to show her that you are listening to her concerns?

Also, I get the sense that you don't feel safe in the relationship because you can't trust her to follow through and you can't trust her to not mess with your computer when you step away for a minute. That reminded me of a thread that I started a couple of months ago called, "It's not my partner's responsibility to make me feel safe."

I went back and found that thread because I remembered that you told me so good stuff.

This message in particular from you: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=276825.msg12621068#msg12621068

I'm going to up the ante... .and say that I want similar goals... .but also want to be in a place where if my wife is a jerk to me... .I shrug it off... .but also state my truth... .in a proper way... .that she appears to me to be a jerk due to her behaviors.

Maybe an automatic SET. 

That puts ball back in her court... .I've stood up for myself... .but done so properly.

In this situation, do you feel that she was being a jerk?

How can you stand up for yourself properly while shrugging it off AND stating your truth?

[formflier]

In this situation, do you feel that she was being a jerk?

Yes... .I like the term "bully" better... .but... yes.

Interesting... .I believe that I may be changing my priority list after reading the triangle thing a big...

FF

[formflier]

 

Not sure if this changes "my priorities... " or if it changes may "tactics".

After reading the triangle thing... .if each of us would be responsible for our own feelings... .that should solve it.

A person that is responsible for their own feelings doesn't involve the kids.

If I focus on getting the kids out of it... .and "win" ... .that is great.  If she adds in a couple more relatives to compare notes with about who has a worse husband... .her behavior to the kids will have changed... .but not her outlook on life.

I used to involve others.  Her sisters ex was one... .closest thing I had to a brother.  We still talk about parenting... .but rarely mention my marriage... .in any context.  I definitely don't vent.or b$tch to him.

But... .

Do I express my desire to be in a r/s where each party is responsible for their own feelings as my number 1 issue in MC... and let things flow from there... .?

She still operates under the rules where people "make" her feel things... and "do" things... .

   

FF

[vortex of confusion]

Yes... .I like the term "bully" better... .but... yes.

Help me understand why you like the term bully so much?

This might be nitpicking. It is a thought that I had. The word bully paints a picture of your wife being a meany that is pushing people around. Bullies typically have victims. Are you subconsciously trying to hang on to the victim role by continuing to describe her as a bully?

[vortex of confusion]

Do I express my desire to be in a r/s where each party is responsible for their own feelings as my number 1 issue in MC... and let things flow from there... .?

I think it might be helpful to keep things more focused on you.

'I will be responsible for MY feelings.' In this incident, you have feelings about the situation. They are your feelings. Your wife did some crappy stuff. Own that you are upset about it. State it clearly and sincerely without JADEing.

'I will not take responsibility for other people's feelings.' It is quite likely that your wife will continue to make statements like you make her mad or similar statements. You can't change really change that. All you can do is try to figure out how to respond when your wife tries to blame you for her feelings. Could the MC help you navigate that?

[Fian]

I think you do need to talk to the kids since she involved them.  I would personally recommend the following message:

• Issues between mom and dad should stay between mom and dad.



• You don't normally comment on such things, because it needs to stay between mom and dad.



• If they are ever brought into the middle of something and want to ask you a question, you would be happy to answer their question.