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VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?" Parental alienation is when a parent allows a child to participate or hear them degrade the other parent. This is not uncommon in divorces and the children often adjust. In severe cases, however, it can be devastating to the child. This video provides a helpful overview.
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Author Topic: Help me prepare for MC on Thursday to talk about "terrorism" issue  (Read 734 times)
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« Reply #30 on: June 16, 2015, 01:39:19 PM »

  (response to question about wanting to be a victim... )

I don't think so... but... interesting point.

I'm a words guy... .language matters... especially when I am trying to express something precious to me.

Jerk... .to me is an uncaring azz... .runs over people without thought or care...  Jerks don't want to use people to accomplish things... .they just run over them on the way to what they do care about.  

All of this is just my opinion

Bully... .Someone who uses aggressive tactics to get someone else to "feel" a certain way... .or do a certain thing.  Instead of doing something for themselves... .they are trying to manipulate or coerce others into solving something for them.  I will "bully" you until you (fill in blank)

I don't see myself as a victim... .I have in the past... .have I gotten all of that out of my system... .most likely will work on that for rest of my life.

Realistically looking at your life and realizing you are in sucky situation... .is not being a victim.

Naval Aviators are trained to make the best of out what they are dealt... .and we never give up... .pulling ejection handle is not giving up... .you live to fly and fight another day.  Sometimes you don't have a handle.  Most of my life was spent flying an airplane without a reliable way to bail out.  Theoretically possible... .more have tried and failed... .than have tried and made it out.

So... .when something goes down it the airplane... .I had the idea that I had the rest of my life to figure it out... .

That attitude is one that is part of me... .I'm gonna figure this thing out... .if it takes the rest of my life... .

ehh... .did I answer the question... .or make a speech... .

There have been times in our marriage where we were equals... where we complimented each other... .and were more effective as a together unit... .than as individuals.  I hope and believe we will get back to something like that... .

So... .I have no desire... .to remain stuck here... .I really do want peace and tranquility.

FF
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« Reply #31 on: June 16, 2015, 01:47:25 PM »

... .did I answer the question... .or make a speech... .

Yes.  You feel like a victim.   Smiling (click to insert in post)

This is almost word for word of what not to do from the article.

Bully... .Someone who uses aggressive tactics to get someone else to "feel" a certain way... .or do a certain thing.  Instead of doing something for themselves... .they are trying to manipulate or coerce others into solving something for them.  I will "bully" you until you (fill in blank)

Stop labeling her.  Meany, terrorist, monster, bully are all victims terms.  All drama words.

Here's a map of the drama so far.

Wife sees email

Triangle Stage 1:

Prosecutor: FF

Victim: Wife

Counter action: Circulate emails - triangulated

Triangle Stage 2:

Prosecutor: FF

Victim: Wife

Rescuer: Children/Sister

Actions: FF reacts

Triangle Stage 3:

Prosecutor: Wife

Victim: FF

______________

Next Action: In a drama triangle, the worst next action is to do something to make your wife feel like a victim and the rescuers sympathetic to her.

Triangle Stage 4:

Prosecutor: FF

Victim: Wife

Rescuer: Children/Sister

Don't try to win the victim spot - covert your persecutor role to the assertive role and move to a caring role with the kids.

Again, since this is about the kids, shift your actions to seem sensible, mature, sound to them. With your wife, you can just take the assertive action of quietly locking down the fort. 

You still have to deal with the "opposite sex relationship" issue with her as per your other thread.

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« Reply #32 on: June 16, 2015, 02:12:15 PM »

Hi FF,

One of the basic principles developed by the National Education Alliance for BPD (in a program called Family Connections) is: family members need to interpret things in the most benign way possible.

Benign: Your wife forwarded emails to the kids that may be hard for them to understand.

Your wife is handicapped in her ability to tolerate stress in relationships. Even when crises arise, there is likely only one of you who is capable of creating a cool, calm environment. That's you.

"I can see that I've hurt you and I'm sorry" tells her that you accept and acknowledge she feels hurt. She is BPD and intensely afraid that you will leave for another woman. Emailing benign messages to a female coworker, even without innuendos, will be hard for her. Accepting this is part of being in a relationship with her.

Parentification of the kids and any kind of parental alienation is also part of being in a relationship with her. She seeks validation from the kids (a role reversal of the normal parent-child role). She will not validate how the kids feel -- that role falls to you.

(Raising emotionally resilient kids (Lesson 5) and parental alienation (Lesson 6) on the Coparenting board).

Start small and focus on validation. "Mom forwarded an email to you. How did you feel about it?" Do not try to divide them and win them over. Let them say how they feel. There is no one absolute truth on any of this -- they are entitled to feel how they feel. It may surprise you how clearly they see what's going on. "Mom wants dad to look bad."



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« Reply #33 on: June 16, 2015, 02:25:27 PM »

Yes.  You feel like a victim.   Smiling (click to insert in post)

Interesting... .I'm listening... .

I don't agree... .but I want to listen... .understand.

A "victim" to me is someone that is helpless... .the world pushes them around... .they are not responsible  for their choices because of the world. 

I don't feel that way at all... .I have avenues I can take... things that may make the situation more tolerable... .even if my wife doesn't play along.  or even it my wife "ups" the ante.

So... .not sure if we are using different definitions.

OK... .I'm listening... .

FF
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« Reply #34 on: June 16, 2015, 02:28:20 PM »

**crossed with three posts so may be repeating the same advice/outlook.

This is a pretty frustrating situation and it seems like the issues involved are getting all muddled up. That happens in parenting relationships and it's important to dissect which is which (what Skip is suggesting you do).

My first piece of advice is to stop the catastrophic language. "Terrorism" and "bullying" will keep in you in a mindset that is counterproductive to resolution involving two people in a relationship. You are a husband and wife, not two countries at war or even a divorced couple unwilling to appease. You're on the same team, FF.  

I feel like your parenting values are different and the boundaries in the relationship are not well established. That happens a lot in marriages with children.  (And Remember boundaries are to help keep us connected, not to control the other person)

You have a wife who crossed [what as I see as a] blurry line and looked at your personal email. She saw a conversation with another woman and her mind ran wild. She's insecure. She acted poorly (forwarded the email to the kids) but at the core is a valid concern and feeling on your wife's part. Validating her fear is a pretty good first step to resolution in the marriage.

It is an overreaction to what she saw. It's tough being the more grounded partner, but it's up to you to bring this back to reality. Not make matters worse.    

Your primary concern is the involvement of the kids.

What is your core issue here? That you'll look bad to the kids? Or that the kids not be burdened with relationship issues involving their parents?

We are parents. We are relationship partners. One usually has very little to do with the other. If we fail at being a relationship partner, it does not ever change our feelings or roles as a parent. That, my friend, is unwavering. That is all a child ever needs to know. Smiling (click to insert in post)

It's important to uphold your own [parenting] values in this even if when it's giving space to the other parent to have different [parenting] values. Our own parenting comes in when you let the kids know that there is no reason for them to be involved if they don't want to be. That they never have to take sides. They usually would prefer not to be involved. They just want to love their parents.

So don't explain your side of events. Don't tell the kids that the other parent shouldn't be involving them (because that's your own bashing of their parent). Be their Dad - ask them if they're OK and if they need anything from you.

Then perhaps bring in the neutral third party to help perhaps establish clearer boundaries in this. When it comes to your opposite sex relationships and transparency in your marriage (email passwords). Talk about the children's needs being important and that it might be pretty stressful for them to have to deal with their parents relationship issues when they're busy dealing with other things.
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« Reply #35 on: June 16, 2015, 02:39:25 PM »

Your primary concern is the involvement of the kids.

Sorry if we missed a post... this was my original answer... .

My primary concern is that we are a family where people don't own their own emotions... .

After I read the triangle article... .this became my new #1.  However... .I may be confusing how to go about addressing the problem... .and what I'm concerned about... .not sure.

FF
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« Reply #36 on: June 16, 2015, 02:47:54 PM »

However... .I may be confusing how to go about addressing the problem... .and what I'm concerned about... .not sure.

DG and I are saying the same thing.

Your role is to validate how the kids feel if your #1 priority is their involvement in this. They don't want to be put in a position to judge you, they want their dad to be their dad. The natural parent-child role is that you validate them. Not vice versa. It's taxing to kids to be put in the position of validating the parent, and they get plenty of that from mom.

They don't care how it comes to pass that they have to validate your wife. Or you.

They want to feel heard and know that someone accepts and acknowledges what feels real to them.

This is a hall pass to help you exit the drama triangle.
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« Reply #37 on: June 16, 2015, 02:59:35 PM »

My primary concern is that we are a family where people don't own their own emotions... .

After I read the triangle article... .this became my new #1.  However... .I may be confusing how to go about addressing the problem... .and what I'm concerned about... .not sure.

Its a noble goal, but its also rescuing.

Be caring, but don't overstep. We do not want to let our fears, obligation and guilt to control us or allow us to be manipulated into taking care of another person when it really isn't healthy to do so. Instead of being the Rescuer and doing the thinking, taking the lead, doing more than our share, doing more than is asked of us -  simply be a supportive, empathetic listener and provide reflection, coaching, and assistance if the person asks and is taking the lead themselves. It is important to recognize the other person as an equal (not one-down) and give the other person the respect of letting them take care of themselves, solve their own problems, and deal with their feelings as they choose. Remember, the rescuer has the most pivotal position on the drama triangle - you are in the strongest position, at least initially, to redirect the dynamic into healthy territory.

Your initial focus is more clear - workable.

Parental Alienation: Be a caring, available dad. Don't make any persecutor moves. Don't get drawn in.

Computer security:  Quietly lock it all down.  Clearly, unequivocally and constructively assert your needs here*

Inappropriate opposite sex relationship:  Relook your co-values/boundaries with the MC

* Instead of the actions of the Persecutor, who blame and punish - give up trying to force or manipulate others to do what you want. Take on the new behaviors of "doing" and "asserting". Ask for what we want. Say no for what you don't want. Give constructive feedback. Initiate negotiations. Take positive action.
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« Reply #38 on: June 16, 2015, 03:01:01 PM »

I don't feel that way at all... .I have avenues I can take... things that may make the situation more tolerable... .even if my wife doesn't play along.  or even it my wife "ups" the ante.FF

What are the avenues that you can take?

The avenue that I have seen you suggest is to address a terrorist issue in MC. I haven't seen you propose (I may have missed something) any possible solutions other than stuff like:

Help me find a way to put a leash on my wife

Help me communicate stuff to my wife

What are concrete things that YOU can do that do not involve having words with your wife? What concrete things can YOU do to create a team atmosphere?

If your primary concern is that you are a family of people that don't own their emotions, then what would be the logical first step? I think you have told me to lead by example on quite a few different occasions.

You can't control whether or not other people own their own emotions. Yes, you are part of a family. A family is made up of unique individuals and each of those individuals is going to handle their emotions in their own way. You can't make them own their emotions. You can own yours and try to communicate them and own them to set an example.

What I am hearing is, "Things would be better if everyone would own their emotions." It does come across that you are a victim of others emotions.

Would it be possible to go back and read some of your posts as though they were written by somebody other than you? What advice would you give me or somebody else if I had posted the same stuff that you have been posting?

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« Reply #39 on: June 16, 2015, 03:01:46 PM »

*** crossed again

Excerpt
My primary concern is that we are a family where people don't own their own emotions... .

Well, you can only control you. You've assessed that you'll have to be the emotionally mature partner who helps in the caretaking of the less emotionally mature person. That means you lead the way. You stop engaging in the drama. You get off the drama triangle.

My candid observation from where I'm standing?

Your family lacks communication skills.  

Gottman suggests that couples usually experience the same disagreements over and over again throughout the duration of the marriage. It's not so much about resolving the issues as it is how you recover from the arguments/disagreements is what determines the success of the marriage. It's not about agreeing. It's about agreeing to disagree.

You'll probably experience this same situation, painted up differently 6 months from now. You may look at a woman for 5 seconds too long, talk to a new female neighbor, make a facial expression to an attractive actress on tv, or whatever. So, it's more about learning to develop a safe space where your wife can be jealous and insecure and where you can establish that you're still a man living in a world where other women exist --- and who loves his wife very much. That involves communication between both of you that helps you recover from the situation. It just gets a little trickier when she's prone to BPD coping skills (and overreacting).      
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« Reply #40 on: June 16, 2015, 03:06:09 PM »

 

OK... .I'm listening... .still... .so "diagnosing" the problem... .pushing for everyone to keep their own emotions... to themselves... .is overstepping my bounds?  Going into rescuing territory?

FF
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« Reply #41 on: June 16, 2015, 03:16:27 PM »

I personally think it is better to focus on the concrete actions, not the underlying issues - let the MC handle that.  So I think your first list was better:

1.  Involving kids in a parental dispute

2.  Violating your privacy

3.  Contacting third parties about your marital dispute

Basically, what boundaries did she violate?
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« Reply #42 on: June 16, 2015, 03:32:55 PM »



OK... .I'm listening... .still... .so "diagnosing" the problem... .pushing for everyone to keep their own emotions... to themselves... .is overstepping my bounds?  Going into rescuing territory?

I think it is overstepping. The reason is that you are trying to tell other people what to do with their emotions. You are responsible for YOUR emotions, not your wife's emotions.

I don't know if it is rescuing. It comes across a bit as having the answers rather than being open to hearing other possibilities.

Owning ones emotions is very difficult. Some people blame them on others. Some people completely deny them. Some people try to find distractions so that they don't have to deal with their emotions.

Is it possible that focusing on them and whether or not they own their emotions is distracting you from looking at what you are feeling about this situation? If you stay involved in the triangle and continue to focus on whether or not other people are owning their emotions, then that lets you off the hook a bit. Forget about their emotions for a minute. . .

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« Reply #43 on: June 16, 2015, 03:33:47 PM »

I personally think it is better to focus on the concrete actions, not the underlying issues - let the MC handle that.  So I think your first list was better:

1.  Involving kids in a parental dispute

2.  Violating your privacy

3.  Contacting third parties about your marital dispute

Basically, what boundaries did she violate?

This is a workable list... .
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« Reply #44 on: June 16, 2015, 03:39:17 PM »

Hi ff, below is taken from Skip, for me this covers in a nut shell what you can do to deescalate and diffuse this email situation in a straight forward way that aims to achieve a positive outcome for you all.

Parental Alienation: Be a caring, available dad. Don't make any persecutor moves. Don't get drawn in.

Computer security:  Quietly lock it all down.  Clearly, unequivocally and constructively assert your needs here*

Inappropriate opposite sex relationship:  Relook your co-values/boundaries with the MC

* Instead of the actions of the Persecutor, who blame and punish - give up trying to force or manipulate others to do what you want. Take on the new behaviors of "doing" and "asserting". Ask for what we want. Say no for what you don't want. Give constructive feedback. Initiate negotiations. Take positive action.


I posted a while ago that I thought your wife has been trying to communicate 'something' to you for a while now. She has been unhappy and disgruntled for quite some period of time. To me she sounds worried and insecure. There has been some significant changes in your household over recent months that have impacted upon your roles both as parents and partners.

I just cross posted with VOC and it made me wonder how you feel about the changes that have taken place with your career at this point in your life and does keeping the focus on your wife's behaviour allow you to avoid focusing on what is going on for you ?


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« Reply #45 on: June 16, 2015, 03:44:25 PM »



I agree... what she says she is unhappy about... .are mainly things I have said no to.

then... .she takes my no... and "adds to what it means"

I will not be on a chore chart... .means... .

I won't do chores at home

I won't do chores how she tells me... .means... I won't do chores at home.

Her choice to interpret things how she wishes... .I have clearly stated my message... .and... .the rest is up to her.

FF
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« Reply #46 on: June 16, 2015, 04:16:28 PM »

formflier,

I think this is starting to get confusing for the rest of us here.

Is this about chore charts? Your wife's triangulating with others? The kids involvement in parenting issues? Boundary issues?  

Do you just want to vent/complain? Feel heard?

We want to help. It's hard to do when you seem to be so engulfed in keeping the drama/conflict alive.

This is a good observation/question:

I just cross posted with VOC and it made me wonder how you feel about the changes that have taken place with your career at this point in your life and does keeping the focus on your wife's behaviour allow you to avoid focusing on what is going on for you ?

---DG
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« Reply #47 on: June 16, 2015, 07:54:33 PM »

formflier,

I think this is starting to get confusing for the rest of us here.

Is this about chore charts? Your wife's triangulating with others? The kids involvement in parenting issues? Boundary issues?  

---DG

All of these are issues... .non are solved... .even started to be addressed... .from my point of view... .my wife keeps piling on... .new issue... after new issue

Ask me a couple days ago what I care about... my answer would have been totally different. 

She sent the emails... .my phone rings at home... .and my wife and her aunt are in the middle of a full on session of talking about how to "unload" on their husbands... .how they know what we think... .how we desire other women... .and how they need to "handle" us... .

It could be a put on... .it could be a big mistake and I was not supposed to hear that.  But... .I listened to my wife and her aunt laughing and carrying on and planning about how to inflict pain on their husbands... how we deserved it.

I heard it from their mouths... .no heresay.

I tend to be slow to process things... .I wouldn't describe myself as being triggered.

I am angry. 

I am not on that team... .with those two women. 

I also have feelings of sadness... .

FF
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« Reply #48 on: June 17, 2015, 05:36:02 AM »

I think this is starting to get confusing for the rest of us here.

We want to help

Good Morning formflier,

You certainly have a lot going on.   And it does appear that its going to take some time to pull it apart.   It has to be difficult to try and decipher all the very good input you've gotten. 

I hope you are giving yourself credit for the effort and willingness you are putting in.  I get how difficult that is.  It makes a bunch of sense to me that you would have some feelings of anger and sadness.

I know for me when I have a bunch of conflicting and confusing thoughts banging away in my head I sometimes need to sit with them and let what ever is clanging around inside me rise to the surface.   Sometimes that takes a while.

For what it's worth I think Skip has put some wonderful stuff up in this thread,  his posts have helped me, so thanks (again) Skip.   

'ducks   

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« Reply #49 on: June 17, 2015, 05:49:02 AM »



Yes... I'm confused... .

I believe that I am trying to make sense... out of something that can't be made sense of

I want to find something to try and build from

I'm sitting with my cup of coffee... trying to be quiet... .and consider things...

FF
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