Owning my part of the issue... do I need to own "half" of it... or measure it?

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

I want to make sure I understand... .and own "my part" of this issue.

Continuation of: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=278473.0

FF

[formflier]

I want to make sure I understand... .and own "my part" of this issue.

Continuation of: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=278473.0

FF

[formflier]

 This is what I typed in the email.  My wife claims... .thinks... .feels... that my use of the word anything means I want an equivalent r/s with this woman.  Equivalent to my wife...

I'm asking the lady for a copy of her CV style resume... .

Start of email.

Any chance I can get you to send me a copy?  It was a very impressive package.  I'm looking to model mine along the same lines.

I'm always open to chatting with you for advice on dealings with "formflier's county government name" government... .grants... .anything really

end of email

[Notwendy]

FF, I know it is a matter of perspective, but I see the word "anything" as being in context of the politics of the job- meaning she does not have to fear saying the right thing politically with you.

As you mentioned, both of you are politically conservative. If her job is in a politically liberal environment, then she may not feel she can openly discuss her point of view- and this could happen vice versa as politics are a hot topic these days. I see this as you ascertaining that she is in a safe position to discuss the politics of her job with you.

This is just how I see it and it is in context of all your interactions. Some men are flirts, and I take what they say in context of their behaviors. A statement like this from a flirt might seem ambiguous, but if I know the man to be a  married family guy who doesn't flirt, I think nothing of this.

[formflier]

 

Notwendy... .you pretty much have my intent.

I was the first person these people (wife and husband) had a r/s with here.  Many hours on phone with both of them.

They are not from here.  I live in a rural... .beautiful place.  The people here are clannish... .multi-generational issues abound.  

Many issues that are faced today... stem from arguments among grandfathers... and great grandfathers.  I am "first generation" here.  My parents moved here... .I grew up my entire life here... .but... .I'm still somewhat of an outsider.

These people know they are outsiders coming in to try and help.  For context sake... .there is nobody... .and I mean nobody... from this county that is/was qualified to run the library... .sad but true.

So... not really liberal or conservative in the national politics point of view... .it's complicated.

Ok... .rabbit trail over... .but trying to put context around this... .and my professional actions.  

Also personal actions... .this is a small place.  Everyone knows everyone... .and "their business"... .I have... .and still have full intentions of carrying on friendship with this family.  (I realize they may feel otherwise... .given recent events and emails)

Last bit of context:  I have not spoken to the lady since December.  I have seen them in public... .shook the husbands hand... we sort of patted each other on the back... .very warm with each other.  I kinda waved at her and said hey...

I have exchanged emails and texts with husband... .and also have had phone conversations with him... .very relaxed... .unguarded "dudish" kind of conversations... .

FF

[123Phoebe]

I have mixed feelings about the "ask me anything" comment. I see where Skip's interpretation makes sense, but in context of a work related e mail, I would have assumed that "anything" was in context of anything work related. One could look at this with suspicion, but in a work related context, I tend to err on the side of work. Now, if there was a progression of discussion from work topics to more personal ones, I might become guarded.

In a sense there was...  There was talk of "praying for", "worried FF might move out of the area", FF's children's happiness and what they might enjoy were involved in the exchange, where this woman will be on a particular date... . There's an "emotional connection".

Looking at it from a possible BPD perspective, this woman is horning in, intruding upon FF's wife's life and her connection to her husband (FF).  So what does W do, what is her emotional reaction, how does she act this out?  She horns in, intruding dramatically into FF's email and their "relationship", blowing it up.

FF, I sincerely believe (feel) that there's an emotional disconnect between you and your wife that has (not) been there long before this incident.  I'm not placing blame on you or anything like that, her behavior can be atrocious.  

[Notwendy]

But where does it cross the line? Asking someone to pray for you is a common thing in the conservative Christian community. ( I have several friends who are of this denomination).

The conservative christian community seems to be very tight knit and connected like a family but I don't think it appears to be sexual to me. This is the perspective from someone outside of it.

People sometimes bring up the topic of kids with me since they know I am a parent. If I were to consider relocating, one of my questions would be would my H and  kids be happy there?  If I had a wife and kids, then I would possibly bring in topics like schools, or things my wife would like to do.

Emotional connection at work is possible. There are people who make the workplace more enjoyable, and also people who are just miserable to be with.

Where I get concerned is if anyone were to talk about something between them and their spouse, marital issues, sexual topics, their own personal feelings, revealing too much information, but it is possible to feel a connection to a co-worker and have it not cross the line.

I guess that line can feel different to someone with BPD.

[123Phoebe]

I guess that line can feel different to someone with BPD.

Mmm hmm

[Notwendy]

Phoebe- I have a thought - could it be projection ( not that wife is cheating ) but a projection of a lack of awareness of boundaries? If someone with BPD doesn't have a sense of boundaries- personal or otherwise, then they could feel threatened by any sense of connection with their spouse?

For instance, I don't read things into this because I am aware of my boundaries. Because I am aware of my boundaries I can appreciate that someone else has them. Because I can manage my boundaries in the workplace, I know that others can have that ability too. ( and recognize when they don't)

But if I don't have an awareness of boundaries, then I can't tell the difference between a work relationship and one that may threaten my marriage. So any connection feels like a betrayal?

[123Phoebe]

Phoebe- I have a thought - could it be projection ( not that wife is cheating ) but a projection of a lack of awareness of boundaries? If someone with BPD doesn't have a sense of boundaries- personal or otherwise, then they could feel threatened by any sense of connection with their spouse?

For instance, I don't read things into this because I am aware of my boundaries. Because I am aware of my boundaries I can appreciate that someone else has them. Because I can manage my boundaries in the workplace, I know that others can have that ability too. ( and recognize when they don't)

But if I don't have an awareness of boundaries, then I can't tell the difference between a work relationship and one that may threaten my marriage. So any connection feels like a betrayal?

Notwendy, I will have to give this more thought and don't have time right now-- work is calling me out!

Quickly, and I could be so wrong... . W might be extremely jealous and fearful of what appears to be an easy breezy relaxed connection between FF and coworker, something that's lacking in their marriage.

[Notwendy]

Quickly, and I could be so wrong... . W might be extremely jealous and fearful of what appears to be an easy breezy relaxed connection between FF and coworker, something that's lacking in their marriage.



Ooh, I think you are on to something. I have felt this too. Our most intimate relationships are the toughest. I remember feeling some jealousy over a close friendship my H had with a school friend- not because it was sexual but because, it was easy. It is easier to be a casual friend than a spouse or a family member- we are not as vulnerable.

This may also explain why my H has been jealous of some friends I have known since childhood. They are like brothers to me.

Also, pw BPD are defensive, and we tend to walk on eggshells. When I am with my H, I tend to be reserved. He gets jealous of the friends I have- male or female ( I mostly have female friends) when he sees me not walking on eggshells with them.

[Skip]

I have exchanged emails and texts with husband... .and also have had phone conversations with him... .very relaxed... .unguarded "dudish" kind of conversations... .

formflier, you're misleading yourself if you think this is about one word in one sentence.

I have exchanged emails and texts with husband... .and also have had phone conversations with him... .very relaxed... .unguarded "dudish" kind of conversations... .

This only means you don't feel threatened. Your friend may have wanted her husband in contact with you so that he doesn't feel threatened by this.

This doesn't help your wife.

How would you feel if your wife was having a private email exchanges with another man?  I will tell you, when this happens, its more about what we don't know than anything else.

There is a trust issue here.  She is BPD, you know that, in it already comes with built in trust issues.

Remember the Billy Graham Rule?  I'm not trying to add a religious context to this, but I'm pointing out that he knew how vulnerable he was to having his actions misinterpreted so he lived by this rule. He never had a sex scandal - how many high profile religious leaders lived their life without one?

Again, I'm not accusing or suggestion you had an affair.  I am trying to tell you that you will not get far if you do not put on your empathy hat on and try to see her part of the issue from her shoes and build your approach from that point out.

And as an aside, as a member, I don't want to look at this based on the selection of one word, in one sentence, in one email.  Your wife is a human and her reaction is multifaceted - have you been less attentive to her, how do you speak about this other women, how attractive is she, how many emails, the tone, were you writing her nicely when you and you wife were struggling, and other ethereal and perceived notions.

I don't agree with how she responded - no one will - but there are two parts to what happened (hers and yours) and I think it will help to look at them separately as you get ready to deal with this.

[Notwendy]

I'm reposting a topic that Phoebe brought up for the sake of discussion here.

Quickly, and I could be so wrong... . W might be extremely jealous and fearful of what appears to be an easy breezy relaxed connection between FF and coworker, something that's lacking in their marriage.



I think you are on to something. I have felt this too. Our most intimate relationships are the toughest. I remember feeling some jealousy over a close friendship my H had with a school friend- not because it was sexual but because, it was easy. It is easier to be a casual friend than a spouse or a family member- we are not as vulnerable.

The question I have is this? Is it wrong to have a connection with someone else? Do we follow our boundaries or appease the ones of the spouse with BPD? Also these work relationships can be a reality check for us- a tie to the healthy world. In this sense, this is a threat to the pwBPD who gains power and validity through our isolation.

I found that when I was a stay at home mom, I was very vulnerable to my H's blaming and raging and my world got very restricted.  Work for me gave me a sense of validation and a way to interact with other people.

I also restricted my world because of my H's accusations of betrayal. In fact, I felt so slutty and ashamed of boys I had dated before I ever met my H. He dug up info about my old boyfriends and even raged about a "crush" that went no where. I really wanted to be the best wife to my H, loyal and faithful yet I could not change the fact that I had cared for other people before I met him ( and he knew that before we were married).

I didn't see a favorite rock singer because my H knew I liked his music and considered that a betrayal.

If I talked on the phone to a friend ( female) when he is home in the evenings, he is jealous because I "don't talk to him like that".



Our spouses may not like our work connections, but they could be a source of sanity. Should we give them up just because it feels like a betrayal to a spouse with BPD?

[Notwendy]

Skip, does this mean a job related private e mail is wrong?

Do our spouses have to see any e mails we send to the opposite gender?

Please explain- because I don't think I understand what you are asking. If we act so that our spouses are not threatened, are we being considerate or walking on eggshells?

[Skip]

Skip, does this mean a job related private e mail is wrong?

Do our spouses have to see any e mails we send to the opposite gender?

Please explain- because I don't think I understand what you are asking. If we act so that our spouses are not threatened, are we being considerate or walking on eggshells?

Notwendy, the most important thing is not to think there is a universal truth at play here.   One wife might have a value system that accepts open relations - another might have a value system in line with Billy Graham.

I know this begs the question about what happens if we have one of these values and our partner has another.  The answer is that there is a big problem that needs to be resolved (and it may not be resolvable).

On this aspect of the relationship dispute between FF and wife - or any of us - if we go in with a self-righteous attitude we only widen the divide.

Solving this doesn't necessarily mean FF can't interact professionally with another women - it means that he may need to change his boundaries.

My doctor's nurse is present for every exam.  It doesn't affect his ability to practice medicine.

[Notwendy]

I think I get what you are saying here- not to be self righteous.

[formflier]

formflier, you're misleading yourself if you think this is about one word in one sentence.

I don't believe it.  But this is her clearly stated position... .

History here... .I have modified my "behavior" towards women many... .many times in the past.  I have had that "behavior" verified by many trusted men and women.  People that my wife vouched for and agreed were neutral and had "our" best interests at heart.

My wife has agreed that I have changed behavior... many times... .yet she would invent new reasons why the bar should be moved... .that my behavior change... .and she would not change hers... and the reason she could not change hers... .was because of my misbehavior (perceived) .

So... ."behavior change" on my part with how I interact with other women... .professional and personally... .is not on the table as an opening to help this.

I'm more than fine to be empathetic with her position... .I can see myself having behavior change to better suit her wants if she demonstrates lasting behavior change... .

But... .I'm done chasing the moving bar.

A bit of detour there... .

A do see the need to look at it from her perspective and build from there... if possible.

FF

[formflier]

I think I get what you are saying here- not to be self righteous.

I get this as well... .I really do.

It is open to negotiation on my part.  I do have several non-negotiables... .I need to think about that.

Me changing my behavior and my wife not changing hers... .in NOT on the table.

FF

[Ceruleanblue]

Formflier: I think you have a good take on it. You are willing to compromise, but your wife has to be willing to, also. I hope the therapist isn't too heavy on either side of this. That seems to be the issue I'm sometimes having in MC. Because BPDh is resistant to change, and zones out, it seems the focus seems to rest on me "not setting off his anger, or provoking him". I get that to a large degree, but if his anger is never addressed in our therapy, it leaves me feeling somewhat deflated. I hope your T addresses the boundary issues about what your wife did, and doesn't just address what YOU can do to alleviate her fears.

[Fian]

My wife has agreed that I have changed behavior... many times... .yet she would invent new reasons why the bar should be moved... .that my behavior change... .and she would not change hers... and the reason she could not change hers... .was because of my misbehavior (perceived) .

I see this with my wife as well.  I don't think that changing behavior will solve the issue.  There is a need to be a victim and to blame another - if you change your behavior, they will just find another reason to be a victim.  They want the power of being the victim and you being defensive.

On the other hand, this is a dangerous place to be, as you aren't perfect, and there are things about your behavior that need to change.  Sifting between real and imaginary issues is the challenge of living with BPD.

[Skip]

I do have several non-negotiables... .I need to think about that.

Me changing my behavior and my wife not changing hers... .in NOT on the table.

This is drama, FF.  Solve.  I know this is upsetting, but high emotional IQ is about solving.

You split the issue in two threads to separate them - untangle them. This thread is regarding values and boundaries in your marriage regarding private relationship with members of the opposite sex - not the emailing incident. Let's keep them separate.

Does she have private relationships with members of the opposite sex. If not, then this is about your actions (the other thread is about her actions).

Right?

[vortex of confusion]

Let's turn this around for a minute. . .

How would people respond if the story was turned around?

If we were talking to FF's wife instead of him. . .

FF has been distant and hasn't engaged. He is busy setting boundaries and trying to improve how he interacts and communicates. He is trying to stop the bleeding so to speak. She doesn't see that. All she sees is a husband that seems to have disconnected. He is unwilling to participate in chore stuff. He refuses to put his name on the chore chart. All of his projects and all of his stuff seems to take priority over what wife wants. He spends a lot of time on the computer, supposedly working on job applications and job stuff.

As a wife, how would that make the women here feel? If the tables were turned, what would people be saying to FF's wife?

Would people be up in arms telling her that she shouldn't snoop? I have seen it time and time again where people have found questionable stuff when snooping. The emphasis is rarely "WOW, you shouldn't be snooping." The emphasis is on "Trust your gut." If you think your partner is cheating or is doing something questionable, then he/she likely is. I think a lot of women would automatically jump to the conclusion that something was going on between FF and this woman given the back drop that he seems to be unplugging from the relationship.

FF's wife is a person. She is a human being. All of the things that all of us here have felt at different times, she is feeling too. Those feelings are likely amplified because of BPD or whatever it is that is going on with her.

[formflier]

Quickly, and I could be so wrong... . W might be extremely jealous and fearful of what appears to be an easy breezy relaxed connection between FF and coworker, something that's lacking in their marriage.

My wife and I do not email about emotional or r/s issues.

Texts are about what to pick up at store... .emails (that I respond to) are about issues with taxes... ."look at this digital document"... .business stuff.

You guys have seen threads about emails she sends about tasking... .she has agreed many times she won't and shouldn't do that.  I don't respond to them. 

My wife and I do have (at times... .in fact most of the time) an easy breezy conversation style at home.  It depends (IMO) on her mood.  I will attempt to be relaxed... .if she is worked up and I will attempt to hang with it with tools... .and then leave when it gets bad.

So... .it does exist... .it is much ... much better than a year ago... .we do have fun times... .enjoy each other etc etc.

FF

[formflier]

Does she have private relationships with members of the opposite sex. If not, then this is about your actions (the other thread is about her actions).

Yes she does.  Not many... .I don't know the number.  She has many guy "friends" on FB.

There was some sort of incident regarding a guy she was FB messaging that we both knew in our last church.  He ended up loosing a girlfriend and leaving/getting kicked out of the church.  The messages that my wife and he exchanged were one of the issues.

My opinion is that there was nothing inappropriate there... .I think my wife was a long way from any boundary that I would care about.  I believe that others in the church already had it in for this guy... .and my wife was trying to claim credit... .or be involved in drama... .that wasn't really hers. 

My opinion... .my values are that if my wife is doing inappropriate things... .it will eventually come to light without me investigating.

So... .my wife has privacy... .she talks to who she talks to.  That's my attitude.  Doesn't mean I don't care... .or have opinions... . 

FF

[Skip]

He ended up loosing a girlfriend and leaving/getting kicked out of the church.  The messages that my wife and he exchanged were one of the issues.

This says something about how harmful these email can be.

It also gives you a basis to make this an agreed value/boundary for both of you.

[Sunfl0wer]

I think it is possible that in this situation there is nothing for you to own.

It sounds like you did excellent getting the truth out of her, to get her to express what she was actually having an issue with vs some paranoid persecution that could have been possible if you minimized it or appeared to not be attentive.  It sounded like she was jealous over her perception of "intimacy" in this woman being invited to talk to you about "anything."

This sounds like a hugely successful interaction to me!

I'm with the others here, this email sounded perfectly acceptable in it's context.

I seriously do not see anywhere where you could have possibly done a better job!

FF, do you think it is possible, that in this situation, that you did your best... .which in this case was pretty much perfect... .and there is nothing to own?

[formflier]

My intent of the email was

1. Getting a CV that I could use for a job search.

2. Networking

No intent to form a "personal" connection... .although I'm not opposed to it.  There has been mention of getting families together to do things... .but times when they were available... .we weren't and vice versa.  But there was no "push" to do this.

FF

[Sunfl0wer]

My intent of the email was

1. Getting a CV that I could use for a job search.

2. Networking

No intent to form a "personal" connection... .although I'm not opposed to it.  There has been mention of getting families together to do things... .but times when they were available... .we weren't and vice versa.  But there was no "push" to do this.

FF

Humm... .  Her jealousy is not about your intention... .it is about her perception.

Can one JADE in their head even when not JADEing out loud to the person?

If so... .is it helpful and productive? Or is it reinforcing to our own mind that we do not trust ourself?  Or is there an extent to this being helpful at some point, then not so much?

(By the way... .I'm genuinely curious about this... .not making a point with a predetermined answer in mind)

[formflier]

Can one JADE in their head even when not JADEing out loud to the person?

If so... .is it helpful and productive? Or is it reinforcing to our own mind that we do not trust ourself?  Or is there an extent to this being helpful at some point, then not so much?

(By the way... .I'm genuinely curious about this... .not making a point with a predetermined answer in mind)

Excellent question... .allow me to "explain"  how I believe I think and work.  My wife knows this by the way... .at one point in time... .she has said she found it attractive in me.

I rarely do things without purpose... .without considering where I am going.  I used to be much more "inflexible"... .not "spontaneous".  So... as I've gotten older... .I've learned to roll with things more... .be more spontaneous... and there are some incidents of doing things without thinking... .and then wondering... .what was I thinking.

I honestly have no recollection of ever doing anything "without thinking" in the world of relationships.  The instances of being spontaneous were business decisions "its only money"... .etc etc.

Well... .I'm saying all this to assure you... me ... everyone else that I was aware of my purpose in contacting this lady and other people via email.  So... .I don't believe "jading" to yourself is bad... .if you are honestly examining your efforts... .looking for improvements. 

If you are just looking to transfer blame to someone else... .that is bad.

It's a matter of the heart... .ultimately based on belief... .

there are times in my life when I have cheated... .bent rules... .justified ends justifies the means... etc etc.  I'm not a perfect guy... .

My heart is clear on this one... .I'm not picking up blame that is not mine... .

By same token... I have no interest in forcing people to take blame.

My hope and prayer is that I own my part... .and leave the rest for someone else. 

It's very tempting to point the finger... .

FF

[123Phoebe]

Well... .I'm saying all this to assure you... me ... everyone else that I was aware of my purpose in contacting this lady and other people via email.  So... .I don't believe "jading" to yourself is bad... .if you are honestly examining your efforts... .looking for improvements. 

It's not that what you did was bad or wrong, FF, to me anyway.  It's about having the ability of stepping inside her shoes and seeing this from her perspective and validating her experience, even though you don't agree with it.

When I'm jading to myself, I'm taking the stance that I AM RIGHT!  YOU ARE WRONG!  Where's the love connection in that?

[formflier]

It's about having the ability of stepping inside her shoes and seeing this from her perspective and validating her experience, even though you don't agree with it.

I see your point of view... .is a common thing I say to her.

I will sometimes try to use active listening and ask if I have it right... .she rarely responds... .or depending on level of upsetness... will have a retort about if I have to ask... .I obviously don't get it

"help me understand" used to work a lot better

My "take" on my validation skills is that I am pretty good at avoiding invalidation... I still have long way to go to learn how to validate.

I'm a complimenter... .not a validater

Not exactly sure how to change this... .so I can compliment what people do... .AND... .validate their experiences and emotions.

It's frustrating... .

FF

[Sunfl0wer]

I guess to me... .it sounds like you knew that all along your intention with this other woman was NOT disingenuous.

So then why are you "proving" this FACT to yourself?

It almost sounds like when my mom was critical to me all those years.  Now she is gone.  So I continue to internally dialogue and self criticize.

You sound like you are JADEing to yourself.  You sound like you are trying to convince yourself to trust yourself.

If it is FACT that you had benign intentions (I believe this to be true) then why would you need to analyze your own intentions to yourself?

The only logical thing to me... .

Is you are having a issue of: self trust

(I'm putting this out there... .because I am not permanently convinced this way, rather trying to comprehend... .and am a bit confused)

Isn't the next step to learn to trust yourself... .change your inner dialogue to a conversation without self doubt... .Skip the self doubt part and just strategize from a premise that ... .FF intensions=FACT? 

Idk... .maybe I'm out of the loop, or in the minority here... or something else... .but... .

You say you are looking for improvements... .

I think you handled this beautifully, remarkably, and I wonder if RA means accepting yourself too! 

Because I get the sense that is the only thing left to work on in this incident.

[Skip]

It's not that what you did was bad or wrong, FF, to me anyway.  It's about having the ability of stepping inside her shoes and seeing this from her perspective and validating her experience, even though you don't agree with it.

When I'm jading to myself, I'm taking the stance that I AM RIGHT!  YOU ARE WRONG!  Where's the love connection in that?

This is great perspective - one of the greatest things we can get from our support community/friends.

[formflier]

 

I'm listening... .trying to hang on to this.

Is my approach to life wrong.  When someone else see's something in me or believes something about me that is different that what I believe.

Is it not correct to examine yourself... .look things over.  Ask yourself... .what were you thinking... doing?

There are many times... .many instances... where my wife... or others have brought something up... and and after looking at their point of view... .thinking about what I was thinking... .that I did find places where I believed correction was needed... .and took action.

Hmmm... .I'm going to need to think on this some... .

FF

[Sunfl0wer]

Humm...

It sounds like you are saying that you are experiencing natural self doubt caused by an encounter with someone expressing a different "reality" or "perspective."

I don't believe that the is anything "wrong" happening that you are doing.

I generally think that self examination and introspection are high functioning admirable traits.

Somehow though, this situation seems different to me.

I think what is getting at me at being different is that... .

Her perspective on the situation is created based on a "made up truth."

If someone else attended a carnival, and I also attended the carnival... .

I can say it was wonderful and the other person could say it was awful.  We are basing our opinions on our perspectives of our experience.

However, if a third person, who did not attend the carnival, has an opinion about the carnival, and states that it was awful... .

Do we then question our own experience of the carnival and doubt it?

So then the third person can listen to my experience: that it was crowded, most of the rides were broke, it was overpriced, the food was rotten... etc. And my friend can formulate an opinion based on my expression of the experience that I had.  He may say that while good food at the carnival is not so important to him, it still is an awful carnival, but maybe not as bad as I portrayed.

However, that third person concluded the carnival was great... .based on the info I supplied... .I'd think he was a bit nuts.

So maybe that is not a perfect illustration... .however... .

I think there is a time to have introspection.

I also think there is a time to identify and quickly throw a label of "cognitive distortion" on the situation and stop there.

If the third person went on and on about how great the carnival was... .how perfect it was... .would you start to question yourself and if you truly did like the carnival after all?  Would you think maybe it was awful, you just looked at it wrong? No, you would think, "Hey, who is he to judge?  He wasn't there!  How odd!"

In the case of your W, she is NOT in your mind.  Your intentions were good.  Sometimes questioning yourself can be harmful... .if it creates self doubt and mistrust where there shouldn't be any.

I wouldn't trust you if I knew a person who did not attend the carnival, who had no other knowledge to go by except what you shared, has the ability to change your perception of your own experience there.



(If you talked to the friend that did attend... .that is a different story)

I am making this up as I sort it out in my own head... .what do you think?

[Sunfl0wer]

Ugh!  I could have done this waaaaay less long winded... .

My second attempt:

I quickly found this:

. Once you start to identify the cognitive distortions, you can choose to let go of them, rather than “feeding” or reinforcing them.  This paves the way for you to start cultivating and strengthening a more rational and balanced perspective about yourself and the world around you.

It is from this site:

www.healthypsych.com/psychology-tools-identifying-cognitive-distortions/

Here is a good worksheet too in case anyone is interested:

www.healthypsych.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Identifying_Cognitive_Distortions.pdf

So my whole point, simply stated... .

Do you feel that your self talk is possibly a form of "feeding" a cognitive distortion?

[formflier]

 

Hey... part of this site is getting to know each other... .many times as we get to know each other we notice things that others should address... .

I suspect you have found one of those... .

This will be hard to change... part of "demilitarizing" me... .

What kept me alive while flying... .my training... .is to assume that I have missed something... .and be actively searching for what I missed.

Instead of sitting around staring at the sunset while flying... .and assuming I will notice something... .when it is important.

I actively search and challenge my "situational awareness" to make sure I "know"... .or I'm as confident as possible... that I have it correct.

I get... I know I'm not flying anymore... .but when things are really important... my family... .those that I love.

My world gets smaller... .and I hang on to what is instinctive... .my training... .

Sigh... .

Again... .I suspect you are right...

FF

[formflier]

Do you feel that your self talk is possibly a form of "feeding" a cognitive distortion?

I will read and study these links... .I haven't done that yet.

My gut reaction to this is that my "self talk" is making sure I am not the one with the cognitive distortion

Is my world... .what I think it is... .so far... .I believe I am seeing things clearly and accurately... .about what I do... .and why I do it.

FF

[Sunfl0wer]

Hey... part of this site is getting to know each other... .many times as we get to know each other we notice things that others should address... .

I suspect you have found one of those... .

This will be hard to change... part of "demilitarizing" me... .

What kept me alive while flying... .my training... .is to assume that I have missed something... .and be actively searching for what I missed.

Instead of sitting around staring at the sunset while flying... .and assuming I will notice something... .when it is important.

I actively search and challenge my "situational awareness" to make sure I "know"... .or I'm as confident as possible... that I have it correct.

I get... I know I'm not flying anymore... .but when things are really important... my family... .those that I love.

My world gets smaller... .and I hang on to what is instinctive... .my training... .

I love that you explained your perspective... .very helpful.  I know others retired from the service... .now I can understand them better as well.

Imagine you are flying... .something is outside, in your view, some unfamiliar object that you could crash into. How long would you spend questioning your vision?  Washing the windshield?  Cleaning your glasses?  Thinking you are seeing spots?  Maybe you are having a visual disturbance?  Maybe it is a migraine?  At some point... .you must accept (RA) that what is in your view is being perceived by yourself somewhat accurately, then steer accordingly.

(Disclaimer: i do not feel I am right... .not trying to convince you... .just still trying to convey the same thought better... .so you can have the opportunity to consider it if you choose to.)

[vortex of confusion]

Is my world... .what I think it is... .so far... .I believe I am seeing things clearly and accurately... .about what I do... .and why I do it.

But how do you FEEL?

Could it be possible that you need to look at this from two different angles?

One is: How do I feel about this? I need to rant and rave and vent and get all of this negativity out of my system so that I approach things with a clearer mind.

Two is: What do I do? How do I approach setting boundaries and communicating the important stuff clearly?

I have seen you reference the phone call that you overheard a couple of times. I have seen you brush it off. How did you feel when you heard your wife say those things about you? That had to friggin' hurt like hell to hear your spouse paint you out to be an uncaring monster. It had to be confusing as hell too since you have been trying to improve the relationship and communicate clearly.

I will never forget the time that I snooped. (Yes, I snooped. I am not proud of it but I did it and I would surmise that it was probably for some of the same reasons that FF's wife did it.) I found messages between my husband and another woman. He was painting me out to be a friggin' monster. He was telling this person, "My wife never says I love you. She never has sex with me. She ignores me all of the time. Blah, blah, blah. . ." It was like a kick in the gut. I was soo mad that I went and confronted him and we ended up in a rather ugly fight. This was several years ago before I found this site. The point is that he was seeing me as the complete opposite of what I aspired to be. I began to wonder if I was delusional and was imagining things. I did a lot of JADEing to myself. I tried to pay closer attention to what I was saying and doing. I was pretty shaken up over that.

I think the thing you need to own most is how you feel about this stuff. Even when I choose NOT to bring something up with my husband or kids, I can still have feelings about it and I can still have a need to find a safe place to vent and let out the icky feelings that I am having so that I can continue to stay balanced and loving with my husband.

[formflier]

I love that you explained your perspective... .very helpful.  I know others retired from the service... .now I can understand them better as well.

Imagine you are flying... .something is outside, in your view, some unfamiliar object that you could crash into. How long would you spend questioning your vision?  Washing the windshield?  Cleaning your glasses?  Thinking you are seeing spots?  Maybe you are having a visual disturbance?  Maybe it is a migraine?  At some point... .you must accept (RA) that what is in your view is being perceived by yourself somewhat accurately, then steer accordingly.

Exactly... . don't assume your first impression is correct... .prove it.

(Disclaimer: i do not feel I am right... .not trying to convince you... .just still trying to convey the same thought better... .so you can have the opportunity to consider it if you choose to.)

I'm onboard... .keep the observations coming... .

My gut reaction right now (I use this phrase alot... )... if I had to decide "right now"... .I would say that to survive in "BPDland"... .or "thrive" in BPDland... .I need to spend less time thinking about things... .less analyzing.

Kinda press the "I believe" button... .and move along.

FF

[formflier]

I have seen you reference the phone call that you overheard a couple of times. I have seen you brush it off. How did you feel when you heard your wife say those things about you? That had to friggin' hurt like hell to hear your spouse paint you out to be an uncaring monster. It had to be confusing as hell too since you have been trying to improve the relationship and communicate clearly.

Yep... .that hurt... .bad.  Actually... .more correct to say it hurts bad... .it still hurts.

Both women have expressed things to me that were opposite of what I heard on phone call  (about me changing... .trying... .obvious effort... etc etc)  I suppose that is disappointing... .but not shocking... .I know how they are... .I know the FOO.

What I found shocking... .revolting... .was the laughing and the plotting about how to inflict pain on me and the aunt's husband.  Comparing notes about how to really "get to them"... .and "unload on them" based on what they know about our thoughts... even though we deny those thoughts... .they know better.

I had always considered... .thought that... .I was dealing with an emotional disorder... .that was reactive... that once the emotions settled would be livable until the next emotional roller coaster.

What I heard on the phone was two relaxed women... .laughing... .enjoying talking to each other and enjoying sharing stories of the pain they inflicted "unloaded on" their husbands.

So... .we're talking about how that feels... .that scares me... .

FF

[vortex of confusion]

Yep... .that hurt... .bad.  Actually... .more correct to say it hurts bad... .it still hurts.

Is it possible that the hurt that you are experiencing is clouding your ability to think straight? If that is the case, then maybe it would be a good idea to try NOT to think about this stuff and simply let yourself FEEL things. Can you get away for a bit by yourself and do something to take care of yourself?

What I heard on the phone was two relaxed women... .laughing... .enjoying talking to each other and enjoying sharing stories of the pain they inflicted "unloaded on" their husbands.

So... .we're talking about how that feels... .that scares me... .

That is very, very scary. If she is doing this stuff as part of some plan that she cooked up with a female relative, then that changes things. I don't know if that is the case or not. It is better to assume positive intent when possible. That is very difficult to do when you hear something like that directly. It isn't something that you can bring up either because it would likely be denied. You didn't hear that. You are imagining things. Blah, blah, blah. . .

Maybe you need to do some review on the FOG stuff. I can tell from all of your posts that you are a bit frantic and aren't sure what to do/think/feel. It sounds like the FOG may have gotten to you a bit.

What would you tell me to do if I was in a FOG?

[formflier]

Maybe you need to do some review on the FOG stuff. I can tell from all of your posts that you are a bit frantic and aren't sure what to do/think/feel. It sounds like the FOG may have gotten to you a bit.

What would you tell me to do if I was in a FOG?

Good question... .let me think and get back to you. 

Take care of yourself... .would be first.

I heard it... .from their mouths... .either it was a plan and I was supposed to listen to it... .or... .I listened to them planning... .enjoying... .

What are other options... .I am sure there are some... .

FF

[KateCat]

The hurt and confusion you are feeling right now are important guides, I think.

I kind of picture you right at this moment as Early Man crouching in his lair, thinking very hard and getting ready to discover fire and invent the wheel.

There's such an important task ahead of you when eventually you emerge from this critical stage. Eight children to teach and guide.

This stuff is way over my head, but I have learned much from reading the posts of livednlearned discussing ways to parent and heal the children of a borderline parent. When you're ready, there are some genuinely productive paths to follow.

But your wife (my God!), what effects she has wrought on you and the family. You probably can't just move right along without fully comprehending and mourning this. You'll need rest and you'll need time.

Please do take care of yourself, as Vortex says.

[formflier]

There's such an important task ahead of you when eventually you emerge from this critical stage. Eight children to teach and guide.

I have considered doing this full time... .I believe you have suggested it as well. 

I've had a career... .retired... .and found another line of executive work that I love... .and... .in some places... pays well.

However... .life is not about money.   Life is about the bonds and connections that you form with those you love.  I doubt when I am in my twilight years... .that I will smile about the pile of money I have made.

I still smile about s7 asking me to push him higher on the swing outside my house

[vortex of confusion]

Good question... .let me think and get back to you. 

Take care of yourself... .would be first.

I heard it... .from their mouths... .either it was a plan and I was supposed to listen to it... .or... .I listened to them planning... .enjoying... .

What can YOU do to take care of yourself?

Is ruminating over the conversation you heard taking care of yourself?

Trying to understand what you heard probably isn't helpful. It is keeping you stuck. It is keeping you from taking care of yourself. There is no way that you will ever be able to really understand the situation. There are all sorts of possibilities. Does it really matter whether this was something that you were supposed to hear or whether or not it was something they were planning and enjoying?

Bottom line is that it is quite likely that you are going to be hit with more stuff. . .how are you going to stay strong? How are you going to keep yourself together so that you can keep going without getting sucked into the FOG or the manipulation? How are you going to keep from taking the bait?

[formflier]

 

Today... .I have been able to focus on other things... .better than yesterday... .

Meeting with CPA about taxes... .an hour or so of work to gather last remaining stuff and put that issue behind us... .for 2014. 

My plan is to finish the tax stuff... .get my Dad a birthday card... .go for walk... .go to Vacation Bible School... .another walk... .and good nights sleep. 

Walked d4 over to kinder camp and back... .had a couple nice... quick conversations with kids... .plan to continue doing that...

FF

[Fian]

One thing to consider - should you bring up the overheard conversation in MC?  I know that tactically, it undermines your position of don't snoop on you, however on the other hand, you seem to have a hard time letting it go.  If you had heard that your wife was cheating on you, you would definitely make an issue of it, even if you were snooping.  You have to decide if in this case, it is better to maintain your anti-snoop position, or discuss the elephant in the room.  The problem is you have so many elephants, it would be easy to put this one on the backburner.  You might want to ask for MC to be an extended session.

[formflier]

Yeah... .here is the thing... .it's sort of snooping... .(it is)... .it also highlights the point that if you want your conversations to be private... .you take steps to keep it that way.

In other words... .my wife should be in charge of making sure that she does not dial in additional numbers.

I should be in charge of locking down my browsers and passwords.

If a phone rings... .most people pick it up.  It was the oddest thing I have ever heard... .and literally... .I sat there... listening... .but really trying to figure out if this was a put on... .

Once I understand BPD tricks... and the correct response... .I can do it without thinking.  I have never considered the possibility that this would happen.

My plan if it happens in the future... is announce my presence and ask how I can be of service... .since I was called.

I think I have to bring it up in MC... .there is too much crazyness... .I think cards need to be on table and let MC guide.  She is good (the MC)... .seems great at redirecting conversations... .and has spent considerable time with both of us... .from time to time... .stand in the shoes of the other person.

I think I am going to keep on the track of "understanding"... ."help me understand and interpret in the most benign way possible... .what happened... "

I do not thing I want to say... .you said this... .and then you said this... and argue about details.

FF

[123Phoebe]

Yeah... .here is the thing... .it's sort of snooping... .(it is)... .it also highlights the point that if you want your conversations to be private... .you take steps to keep it that way.

In other words... .my wife should be in charge of making sure that she does not dial in additional numbers.

I should be in charge of locking down my browsers and passwords.

If a phone rings... .most people pick it up.  It was the oddest thing I have ever heard... .and literally... .I sat there... listening... .but really trying to figure out if this was a put on... .

FF, if you hadn't already been triggered, would you have listened in or simply hung up?

[123Phoebe]

I'm listening... .trying to hang on to this.

Is my approach to life wrong.  When someone else see's something in me or believes something about me that is different that what I believe.

Is it not correct to examine yourself... .look things over.  Ask yourself... .what were you thinking... doing?

There are many times... .many instances... where my wife... or others have brought something up... and and after looking at their point of view... .thinking about what I was thinking... .that I did find places where I believed correction was needed... .and took action.

Hmmm... .I'm going to need to think on this some... .

FF

I'm struggling with phrasing this.  With this being the way that you reflect, could there be an assumption (and an expectation) that your wife thinks things through the same way?

[formflier]

FF, if you hadn't already been triggered, would you have listened in or simply hung up?

I will never know what would have "caused" me to hang up... .or what other things would have kept me listening.

But... phone rings... .here women using my name... .I considered at first that it was a "put on"... .intentional.

As in... .the old tricks weren't working... .so... now we will forward some emails... .call you and do something weird... .who knows...

It was not a put on... .I'll post more about that in a minute... .MC was interesting... .and ultimately positive.

FF