Owning my part of the issue... do I need to own "half" of it... or measure it?

[Sunfl0wer]

I guess to me... .it sounds like you knew that all along your intention with this other woman was NOT disingenuous.

So then why are you "proving" this FACT to yourself?

It almost sounds like when my mom was critical to me all those years.  Now she is gone.  So I continue to internally dialogue and self criticize.

You sound like you are JADEing to yourself.  You sound like you are trying to convince yourself to trust yourself.

If it is FACT that you had benign intentions (I believe this to be true) then why would you need to analyze your own intentions to yourself?

The only logical thing to me... .

Is you are having a issue of: self trust

(I'm putting this out there... .because I am not permanently convinced this way, rather trying to comprehend... .and am a bit confused)

Isn't the next step to learn to trust yourself... .change your inner dialogue to a conversation without self doubt... .Skip the self doubt part and just strategize from a premise that ... .FF intensions=FACT? 

Idk... .maybe I'm out of the loop, or in the minority here... or something else... .but... .

You say you are looking for improvements... .

I think you handled this beautifully, remarkably, and I wonder if RA means accepting yourself too! 

Because I get the sense that is the only thing left to work on in this incident.

[Skip]

It's not that what you did was bad or wrong, FF, to me anyway.  It's about having the ability of stepping inside her shoes and seeing this from her perspective and validating her experience, even though you don't agree with it.

When I'm jading to myself, I'm taking the stance that I AM RIGHT!  YOU ARE WRONG!  Where's the love connection in that?

This is great perspective - one of the greatest things we can get from our support community/friends.

[formflier]

 

I'm listening... .trying to hang on to this.

Is my approach to life wrong.  When someone else see's something in me or believes something about me that is different that what I believe.

Is it not correct to examine yourself... .look things over.  Ask yourself... .what were you thinking... doing?

There are many times... .many instances... where my wife... or others have brought something up... and and after looking at their point of view... .thinking about what I was thinking... .that I did find places where I believed correction was needed... .and took action.

Hmmm... .I'm going to need to think on this some... .

FF

[Sunfl0wer]

Humm...

It sounds like you are saying that you are experiencing natural self doubt caused by an encounter with someone expressing a different "reality" or "perspective."

I don't believe that the is anything "wrong" happening that you are doing.

I generally think that self examination and introspection are high functioning admirable traits.

Somehow though, this situation seems different to me.

I think what is getting at me at being different is that... .

Her perspective on the situation is created based on a "made up truth."

If someone else attended a carnival, and I also attended the carnival... .

I can say it was wonderful and the other person could say it was awful.  We are basing our opinions on our perspectives of our experience.

However, if a third person, who did not attend the carnival, has an opinion about the carnival, and states that it was awful... .

Do we then question our own experience of the carnival and doubt it?

So then the third person can listen to my experience: that it was crowded, most of the rides were broke, it was overpriced, the food was rotten... etc. And my friend can formulate an opinion based on my expression of the experience that I had.  He may say that while good food at the carnival is not so important to him, it still is an awful carnival, but maybe not as bad as I portrayed.

However, that third person concluded the carnival was great... .based on the info I supplied... .I'd think he was a bit nuts.

So maybe that is not a perfect illustration... .however... .

I think there is a time to have introspection.

I also think there is a time to identify and quickly throw a label of "cognitive distortion" on the situation and stop there.

If the third person went on and on about how great the carnival was... .how perfect it was... .would you start to question yourself and if you truly did like the carnival after all?  Would you think maybe it was awful, you just looked at it wrong? No, you would think, "Hey, who is he to judge?  He wasn't there!  How odd!"

In the case of your W, she is NOT in your mind.  Your intentions were good.  Sometimes questioning yourself can be harmful... .if it creates self doubt and mistrust where there shouldn't be any.

I wouldn't trust you if I knew a person who did not attend the carnival, who had no other knowledge to go by except what you shared, has the ability to change your perception of your own experience there.



(If you talked to the friend that did attend... .that is a different story)

I am making this up as I sort it out in my own head... .what do you think?

[Sunfl0wer]

Ugh!  I could have done this waaaaay less long winded... .

My second attempt:

I quickly found this:

. Once you start to identify the cognitive distortions, you can choose to let go of them, rather than “feeding” or reinforcing them.  This paves the way for you to start cultivating and strengthening a more rational and balanced perspective about yourself and the world around you.

It is from this site:

www.healthypsych.com/psychology-tools-identifying-cognitive-distortions/

Here is a good worksheet too in case anyone is interested:

www.healthypsych.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Identifying_Cognitive_Distortions.pdf

So my whole point, simply stated... .

Do you feel that your self talk is possibly a form of "feeding" a cognitive distortion?

[formflier]

 

Hey... part of this site is getting to know each other... .many times as we get to know each other we notice things that others should address... .

I suspect you have found one of those... .

This will be hard to change... part of "demilitarizing" me... .

What kept me alive while flying... .my training... .is to assume that I have missed something... .and be actively searching for what I missed.

Instead of sitting around staring at the sunset while flying... .and assuming I will notice something... .when it is important.

I actively search and challenge my "situational awareness" to make sure I "know"... .or I'm as confident as possible... that I have it correct.

I get... I know I'm not flying anymore... .but when things are really important... my family... .those that I love.

My world gets smaller... .and I hang on to what is instinctive... .my training... .

Sigh... .

Again... .I suspect you are right...

FF

[formflier]

Do you feel that your self talk is possibly a form of "feeding" a cognitive distortion?

I will read and study these links... .I haven't done that yet.

My gut reaction to this is that my "self talk" is making sure I am not the one with the cognitive distortion

Is my world... .what I think it is... .so far... .I believe I am seeing things clearly and accurately... .about what I do... .and why I do it.

FF

[Sunfl0wer]

Hey... part of this site is getting to know each other... .many times as we get to know each other we notice things that others should address... .

I suspect you have found one of those... .

This will be hard to change... part of "demilitarizing" me... .

What kept me alive while flying... .my training... .is to assume that I have missed something... .and be actively searching for what I missed.

Instead of sitting around staring at the sunset while flying... .and assuming I will notice something... .when it is important.

I actively search and challenge my "situational awareness" to make sure I "know"... .or I'm as confident as possible... that I have it correct.

I get... I know I'm not flying anymore... .but when things are really important... my family... .those that I love.

My world gets smaller... .and I hang on to what is instinctive... .my training... .

I love that you explained your perspective... .very helpful.  I know others retired from the service... .now I can understand them better as well.

Imagine you are flying... .something is outside, in your view, some unfamiliar object that you could crash into. How long would you spend questioning your vision?  Washing the windshield?  Cleaning your glasses?  Thinking you are seeing spots?  Maybe you are having a visual disturbance?  Maybe it is a migraine?  At some point... .you must accept (RA) that what is in your view is being perceived by yourself somewhat accurately, then steer accordingly.

(Disclaimer: i do not feel I am right... .not trying to convince you... .just still trying to convey the same thought better... .so you can have the opportunity to consider it if you choose to.)

[vortex of confusion]

Is my world... .what I think it is... .so far... .I believe I am seeing things clearly and accurately... .about what I do... .and why I do it.

But how do you FEEL?

Could it be possible that you need to look at this from two different angles?

One is: How do I feel about this? I need to rant and rave and vent and get all of this negativity out of my system so that I approach things with a clearer mind.

Two is: What do I do? How do I approach setting boundaries and communicating the important stuff clearly?

I have seen you reference the phone call that you overheard a couple of times. I have seen you brush it off. How did you feel when you heard your wife say those things about you? That had to friggin' hurt like hell to hear your spouse paint you out to be an uncaring monster. It had to be confusing as hell too since you have been trying to improve the relationship and communicate clearly.

I will never forget the time that I snooped. (Yes, I snooped. I am not proud of it but I did it and I would surmise that it was probably for some of the same reasons that FF's wife did it.) I found messages between my husband and another woman. He was painting me out to be a friggin' monster. He was telling this person, "My wife never says I love you. She never has sex with me. She ignores me all of the time. Blah, blah, blah. . ." It was like a kick in the gut. I was soo mad that I went and confronted him and we ended up in a rather ugly fight. This was several years ago before I found this site. The point is that he was seeing me as the complete opposite of what I aspired to be. I began to wonder if I was delusional and was imagining things. I did a lot of JADEing to myself. I tried to pay closer attention to what I was saying and doing. I was pretty shaken up over that.

I think the thing you need to own most is how you feel about this stuff. Even when I choose NOT to bring something up with my husband or kids, I can still have feelings about it and I can still have a need to find a safe place to vent and let out the icky feelings that I am having so that I can continue to stay balanced and loving with my husband.

[formflier]

I love that you explained your perspective... .very helpful.  I know others retired from the service... .now I can understand them better as well.

Imagine you are flying... .something is outside, in your view, some unfamiliar object that you could crash into. How long would you spend questioning your vision?  Washing the windshield?  Cleaning your glasses?  Thinking you are seeing spots?  Maybe you are having a visual disturbance?  Maybe it is a migraine?  At some point... .you must accept (RA) that what is in your view is being perceived by yourself somewhat accurately, then steer accordingly.

Exactly... . don't assume your first impression is correct... .prove it.

(Disclaimer: i do not feel I am right... .not trying to convince you... .just still trying to convey the same thought better... .so you can have the opportunity to consider it if you choose to.)

I'm onboard... .keep the observations coming... .

My gut reaction right now (I use this phrase alot... )... if I had to decide "right now"... .I would say that to survive in "BPDland"... .or "thrive" in BPDland... .I need to spend less time thinking about things... .less analyzing.

Kinda press the "I believe" button... .and move along.

FF

[formflier]

I have seen you reference the phone call that you overheard a couple of times. I have seen you brush it off. How did you feel when you heard your wife say those things about you? That had to friggin' hurt like hell to hear your spouse paint you out to be an uncaring monster. It had to be confusing as hell too since you have been trying to improve the relationship and communicate clearly.

Yep... .that hurt... .bad.  Actually... .more correct to say it hurts bad... .it still hurts.

Both women have expressed things to me that were opposite of what I heard on phone call  (about me changing... .trying... .obvious effort... etc etc)  I suppose that is disappointing... .but not shocking... .I know how they are... .I know the FOO.

What I found shocking... .revolting... .was the laughing and the plotting about how to inflict pain on me and the aunt's husband.  Comparing notes about how to really "get to them"... .and "unload on them" based on what they know about our thoughts... even though we deny those thoughts... .they know better.

I had always considered... .thought that... .I was dealing with an emotional disorder... .that was reactive... that once the emotions settled would be livable until the next emotional roller coaster.

What I heard on the phone was two relaxed women... .laughing... .enjoying talking to each other and enjoying sharing stories of the pain they inflicted "unloaded on" their husbands.

So... .we're talking about how that feels... .that scares me... .

FF

[vortex of confusion]

Yep... .that hurt... .bad.  Actually... .more correct to say it hurts bad... .it still hurts.

Is it possible that the hurt that you are experiencing is clouding your ability to think straight? If that is the case, then maybe it would be a good idea to try NOT to think about this stuff and simply let yourself FEEL things. Can you get away for a bit by yourself and do something to take care of yourself?

What I heard on the phone was two relaxed women... .laughing... .enjoying talking to each other and enjoying sharing stories of the pain they inflicted "unloaded on" their husbands.

So... .we're talking about how that feels... .that scares me... .

That is very, very scary. If she is doing this stuff as part of some plan that she cooked up with a female relative, then that changes things. I don't know if that is the case or not. It is better to assume positive intent when possible. That is very difficult to do when you hear something like that directly. It isn't something that you can bring up either because it would likely be denied. You didn't hear that. You are imagining things. Blah, blah, blah. . .

Maybe you need to do some review on the FOG stuff. I can tell from all of your posts that you are a bit frantic and aren't sure what to do/think/feel. It sounds like the FOG may have gotten to you a bit.

What would you tell me to do if I was in a FOG?

[formflier]

Maybe you need to do some review on the FOG stuff. I can tell from all of your posts that you are a bit frantic and aren't sure what to do/think/feel. It sounds like the FOG may have gotten to you a bit.

What would you tell me to do if I was in a FOG?

Good question... .let me think and get back to you. 

Take care of yourself... .would be first.

I heard it... .from their mouths... .either it was a plan and I was supposed to listen to it... .or... .I listened to them planning... .enjoying... .

What are other options... .I am sure there are some... .

FF

[KateCat]

The hurt and confusion you are feeling right now are important guides, I think.

I kind of picture you right at this moment as Early Man crouching in his lair, thinking very hard and getting ready to discover fire and invent the wheel.

There's such an important task ahead of you when eventually you emerge from this critical stage. Eight children to teach and guide.

This stuff is way over my head, but I have learned much from reading the posts of livednlearned discussing ways to parent and heal the children of a borderline parent. When you're ready, there are some genuinely productive paths to follow.

But your wife (my God!), what effects she has wrought on you and the family. You probably can't just move right along without fully comprehending and mourning this. You'll need rest and you'll need time.

Please do take care of yourself, as Vortex says.

[formflier]

There's such an important task ahead of you when eventually you emerge from this critical stage. Eight children to teach and guide.

I have considered doing this full time... .I believe you have suggested it as well. 

I've had a career... .retired... .and found another line of executive work that I love... .and... .in some places... pays well.

However... .life is not about money.   Life is about the bonds and connections that you form with those you love.  I doubt when I am in my twilight years... .that I will smile about the pile of money I have made.

I still smile about s7 asking me to push him higher on the swing outside my house

[vortex of confusion]

Good question... .let me think and get back to you. 

Take care of yourself... .would be first.

I heard it... .from their mouths... .either it was a plan and I was supposed to listen to it... .or... .I listened to them planning... .enjoying... .

What can YOU do to take care of yourself?

Is ruminating over the conversation you heard taking care of yourself?

Trying to understand what you heard probably isn't helpful. It is keeping you stuck. It is keeping you from taking care of yourself. There is no way that you will ever be able to really understand the situation. There are all sorts of possibilities. Does it really matter whether this was something that you were supposed to hear or whether or not it was something they were planning and enjoying?

Bottom line is that it is quite likely that you are going to be hit with more stuff. . .how are you going to stay strong? How are you going to keep yourself together so that you can keep going without getting sucked into the FOG or the manipulation? How are you going to keep from taking the bait?

[formflier]

 

Today... .I have been able to focus on other things... .better than yesterday... .

Meeting with CPA about taxes... .an hour or so of work to gather last remaining stuff and put that issue behind us... .for 2014. 

My plan is to finish the tax stuff... .get my Dad a birthday card... .go for walk... .go to Vacation Bible School... .another walk... .and good nights sleep. 

Walked d4 over to kinder camp and back... .had a couple nice... quick conversations with kids... .plan to continue doing that...

FF

[Fian]

One thing to consider - should you bring up the overheard conversation in MC?  I know that tactically, it undermines your position of don't snoop on you, however on the other hand, you seem to have a hard time letting it go.  If you had heard that your wife was cheating on you, you would definitely make an issue of it, even if you were snooping.  You have to decide if in this case, it is better to maintain your anti-snoop position, or discuss the elephant in the room.  The problem is you have so many elephants, it would be easy to put this one on the backburner.  You might want to ask for MC to be an extended session.

[formflier]

Yeah... .here is the thing... .it's sort of snooping... .(it is)... .it also highlights the point that if you want your conversations to be private... .you take steps to keep it that way.

In other words... .my wife should be in charge of making sure that she does not dial in additional numbers.

I should be in charge of locking down my browsers and passwords.

If a phone rings... .most people pick it up.  It was the oddest thing I have ever heard... .and literally... .I sat there... listening... .but really trying to figure out if this was a put on... .

Once I understand BPD tricks... and the correct response... .I can do it without thinking.  I have never considered the possibility that this would happen.

My plan if it happens in the future... is announce my presence and ask how I can be of service... .since I was called.

I think I have to bring it up in MC... .there is too much crazyness... .I think cards need to be on table and let MC guide.  She is good (the MC)... .seems great at redirecting conversations... .and has spent considerable time with both of us... .from time to time... .stand in the shoes of the other person.

I think I am going to keep on the track of "understanding"... ."help me understand and interpret in the most benign way possible... .what happened... "

I do not thing I want to say... .you said this... .and then you said this... and argue about details.

FF

[123Phoebe]

Yeah... .here is the thing... .it's sort of snooping... .(it is)... .it also highlights the point that if you want your conversations to be private... .you take steps to keep it that way.

In other words... .my wife should be in charge of making sure that she does not dial in additional numbers.

I should be in charge of locking down my browsers and passwords.

If a phone rings... .most people pick it up.  It was the oddest thing I have ever heard... .and literally... .I sat there... listening... .but really trying to figure out if this was a put on... .

FF, if you hadn't already been triggered, would you have listened in or simply hung up?

[123Phoebe]

I'm listening... .trying to hang on to this.

Is my approach to life wrong.  When someone else see's something in me or believes something about me that is different that what I believe.

Is it not correct to examine yourself... .look things over.  Ask yourself... .what were you thinking... doing?

There are many times... .many instances... where my wife... or others have brought something up... and and after looking at their point of view... .thinking about what I was thinking... .that I did find places where I believed correction was needed... .and took action.

Hmmm... .I'm going to need to think on this some... .

FF

I'm struggling with phrasing this.  With this being the way that you reflect, could there be an assumption (and an expectation) that your wife thinks things through the same way?

[formflier]

FF, if you hadn't already been triggered, would you have listened in or simply hung up?

I will never know what would have "caused" me to hang up... .or what other things would have kept me listening.

But... phone rings... .here women using my name... .I considered at first that it was a "put on"... .intentional.

As in... .the old tricks weren't working... .so... now we will forward some emails... .call you and do something weird... .who knows...

It was not a put on... .I'll post more about that in a minute... .MC was interesting... .and ultimately positive.

FF