She compared her email to me as "spanking a child"

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

So... .there are several threads of mine going... .this is a bit of a vent post... .and a post about knowing when to walk away.

My wife had wanted me to call the family T we worked with last summer... .I did about a week ago.  He wanted me to ask her some questions... .If she was worried about something she saw in me... .of if she was unhappy with the r/s dynamic... .also he wondered aloud if she was frustrated that she couldn't get my "attention".

So... a couple days ago... .when our conversation was respectful... .I asked her these questions and she said she would think about them.  I did not set a date for her to get back to me... .or for me to call back the family t... .but... ."few days" was tossed around.

So... .I ask today what her answer was.  She basically dodged and then tried to say it was both.

I also discussed the logistics of us getting to MC on Thursday morning... .we seemed to work it out.

I'm trying to be open... .non hurried... giving her time and she said something about me hearing her or not hearing her.

I expressed that my hope is that she always feel like she has been heard and understood... .even if my answer is no... or not what she is hoping for.

She said her position was that if she expresses something reasonable to me... .my not doing it says to her that I didn't hear her... therefor she didn't have my attention.

I said I could see that point of view... .appreciated it... .but I had a different opinion... .very different than saying she was wrong.

So... .the then started talking about the chore chart and the anger I expressed by taking my name off chore chart.

She said it was her job to point out what her spouse is doing wrong... .and the email she sent was exactly what was needed... .(probably should have exited here... .but I was feeling ok)

She then continued to say that kids don't like it when they get spanked... .but as a parent we have a duty to do this (not mentioning that we haven't done this in over a year)... .

I was still calm and said that we are husband and wife... .not parent and child.  In a r/s with two equals... .one should not be in a position to "spank" the other.

She got a little louder... .and repeated that I got what I deserved and needed.

I said I would have appreciated a loving gesture and questions of concern rather than accusations about what I did or did not do.

She started making a face... .I stood up and said I should leave before I say something I regret.

She left the house a few minutes later to go to vacation bible school.

I "feel" like I stated my truth... .and my values... .I stayed calm... .

Anyone want to comment on if I should have cut the conversation at my earlier suggested stopping point.

FF

[formflier]

So... .there are several threads of mine going... .this is a bit of a vent post... .and a post about knowing when to walk away.

My wife had wanted me to call the family T we worked with last summer... .I did about a week ago.  He wanted me to ask her some questions... .If she was worried about something she saw in me... .of if she was unhappy with the r/s dynamic... .also he wondered aloud if she was frustrated that she couldn't get my "attention".

So... a couple days ago... .when our conversation was respectful... .I asked her these questions and she said she would think about them.  I did not set a date for her to get back to me... .or for me to call back the family t... .but... ."few days" was tossed around.

So... .I ask today what her answer was.  She basically dodged and then tried to say it was both.

I also discussed the logistics of us getting to MC on Thursday morning... .we seemed to work it out.

I'm trying to be open... .non hurried... giving her time and she said something about me hearing her or not hearing her.

I expressed that my hope is that she always feel like she has been heard and understood... .even if my answer is no... or not what she is hoping for.

She said her position was that if she expresses something reasonable to me... .my not doing it says to her that I didn't hear her... therefor she didn't have my attention.

I said I could see that point of view... .appreciated it... .but I had a different opinion... .very different than saying she was wrong.

So... .the then started talking about the chore chart and the anger I expressed by taking my name off chore chart.

She said it was her job to point out what her spouse is doing wrong... .and the email she sent was exactly what was needed... .(probably should have exited here... .but I was feeling ok)

She then continued to say that kids don't like it when they get spanked... .but as a parent we have a duty to do this (not mentioning that we haven't done this in over a year)... .

I was still calm and said that we are husband and wife... .not parent and child.  In a r/s with two equals... .one should not be in a position to "spank" the other.

She got a little louder... .and repeated that I got what I deserved and needed.

I said I would have appreciated a loving gesture and questions of concern rather than accusations about what I did or did not do.

She started making a face... .I stood up and said I should leave before I say something I regret.

She left the house a few minutes later to go to vacation bible school.

I "feel" like I stated my truth... .and my values... .I stayed calm... .

Anyone want to comment on if I should have cut the conversation at my earlier suggested stopping point.

FF

[sweetheart]

What strikes me in your responses to your w is that you didn't validate her once, or acknowledge what she had to say to you. Reading it I am left with a sense of you wanting to have the upper hand by not conceding your point of view.

Taking your name of the chores chart is like something a child might do and your wife is letting you know that she thinks you acted like one, hence the spanking reference.


I think you always state your views and your values ff, but can you hear, really hear what your wife is saying to you when she tries to express hers ?

[vortex of confusion]

In my opinion, the only thing that should have been addressed was the logistics of going to MC on Thursday.

Can you STOP bringing things up with her until you can get into MC?

I am overwhelmed with all of the issues that you are bringing up and I am not your wife! 

How many issues do you have on the table at the moment? How many different things are you trying to accomplish to push your relationship in the direction that you want it to go?

Does your wife have any clue what is going on in your mind? Yes, you are stating things clearly but it seems that you are dropping these clear truths like bombs without any kind of finesse.

I think she has a good point. If she is asking something of you that is perfectly reasonable and you don't do it, then that could easily be seen as rejection. Have you done any sort of validation with regard to her feeling rejected and insecure? Also, you are putting up boundaries left and right. You are stating your truths and walking away to avoid conflict. Sometimes, it comes across as you throwing all of this stuff at her and then wondering why she is dysregulating and frustrated or something.

[Oooohm]

FF

Definition of "Growing Pains":  When the Orientation, Operation, or Dimension of 1 or 2 parts in a system relationship start to change, pain is the result.

From my experience (10 years ago with my wife) she will try desperately to maintain the "Old Dimension, Orientation, Operation of the relationship".  I fumbled thru lots of mistakes during that "Growing" period. One of the Major things I had to "RE-remember" is she was not "Just her Disorder"... .Growing pains.  She had a right to her Feelings... .Growing pains.   Not till she realized I was not going to "revert back to the way things were" did she settle into the new dynamic... .Growing pains.

It was a bumpy ride for a while... .Growing pains.

Grow too fast and it's REALLY going to Hurt !

[Oooohm]

Sorry,

That last post was kind of cryptic.

More clearly:  I look at my time 10 years ago and can clearly define 3 phases of "Being BPD aware"

1. Defining the problem. (With research this took a couple days)

2. Understanding the disorder. (This took a couple months)

3. Implementing Change in oneself. (This SHOULD take several years... .Slowly... .to avoid errors... .learn from mistakes... and to not appear to our SO as a completely different person... .avoiding abandonment issues and push back behavior)

I said SHOULD because it didn't happen that way... .Growing pains

[maxsterling]

Wow, I'm trying to follow all your threads... . A few comments from me:

1)  Boy this sounds familiar.  And your frustration sounds familiar.  :)ifference in my situation is I am much less "aggressive" in wanting a response/action from my wife.  I usually just chalk things up to "BPD" and then try to regroup.  

2)  I've decided my wife is not capable of seeing a "relationship of equals" in any sense.  She either wants me to tell her what to do, or wants to tell me what to do.  That's the way she was raised, and that is the dynamic she understands:  manipulation, conflict, there is always a "winner" and a "loser".

3)  Regarding comment #2, it reads to me like your wife is the same way.  She sees you as competition, not as a partner.  I'm guessing that is the way she was raised.  That's the way my mom views my dad, too.  

My question to you is, I know you want her to be your partner and equal, but if you could put yourself into her shoes, are your actions reflecting that?  I've been thinking about the same with my situation.  I want nothing more than for my wife to be independent, happy, and an equal to me.  That is all I have ever wanted.  But the reality is, she *is* dependent, *is* naturally unhappy, and naturally *feels* unequal and powerless.  And my actions to try and help her feel independent, equal, and happy may be having the opposite effect.  

And this is where I think I am going to disagree to some extent with some of the lessons you may read here or about "codependency".  I think boundaries, when enforced in the wrong way, can be very triggering for a pwBPD.  Remember, boundaries are to protect you, not to change her.  I think we sometimes forget that.  Not that I have a solution for you, because I applaud your efforts to not be run over by this freight train.

Drawing back to my example - I called the police on my wife because from my vantage point, she was breaking the law, and because I saw it as my last recourse for my own safety and her safety.  before her, I had never, ever been hit before.  Is my wife seriously dangerous?  I don't know.  But I think it wise to take acts of violence seriously.  Calling police and staying out of the house for 5 days was enforcing a boundary, that I will not accept violence in my life.  Now, if I stand in my wife's shoes, she sees it as me being controlling and trying to change her behavior, or dismiss her feelings.  And from her vantage point, her view is valid.  

I'm telling you this - not that your actions are in any way wrong on these issues - but that by enforcing boundaries in a certain way you may be perpetuating her natural tendency to see you as an enemy rather than a partner.  Correct me if I am wrong here, but my guess is that your W sees every other human being, including her children, as potential enemies.  Bosses.  Neighbors.  Friends.  See where I am going?  My W complains of friends and family "rejecting" her, when from my outside perspective I see a bunch of people trying to protect their own space and boundaries.  

I guess what I am saying is that perhaps a better approach to some of these issues is instead of enforcing a boundary by refusing to participate in something based on your wife's behavior, to somehow say what you will participate in - find a middle ground.  I know that sounds impossible, and may be impossible, but remember, your wife sees things black and white.

[formflier]

Taking your name of the chores chart is like something a child might do and your wife is letting you know that she thinks you acted like one, hence the spanking reference.

I agree... .and I can see that point of view.  I have a different one.

I also believe that putting my name on a chore chart along with the kids... when it has never been there before is acting like a parent... .and not a spouse... .

Here definition of reasonable and mine... .are worlds apart.

FF

[formflier]

  to somehow say what you will participate in - find a middle ground.  I know that sounds impossible, and may be impossible, but remember, your wife sees things black and white.

I have done this... .many many times.

For instance... .chore chart... .she expressed interest to do it.  I offered to make and share an excel spreadsheet with her that "just us"  me and her as a team had access to... .and that we could go back and  forth with over a "couple days" and find a solution that we could try for a "couple weeks" over the summer. 

Then... .based on our experiences... .we can adjust the chore chart... .go a couple weeks... .repeat.

Lots of sighing... rolling of eyes... calling in kids involving everyone... .dismissing ideas I presented as "not workable"... .demanding we do it "right now"... .I was already involved in doing other chores and things... .and based on my schedule... .didn't have time to devote to a conversation... "right then". 

The mistake I made is saying "whatever... "... ."ok"... ."put something up we can adjust"... .I tried to be flexible... .open... roll with it.

I should have clearly said "NO"... .I will not participate in this process... .and walked away... .rather than leaving her with any wiggle room to assume... .think... whatever that I was onboard.

I offer ideas and invite compromise and alternate ideas... .

Sigh... .

FF

[123Phoebe]

Taking your name of the chores chart is like something a child might do and your wife is letting you know that she thinks you acted like one, hence the spanking reference.

I agree... .and I can see that point of view.  I have a different one.

I also believe that putting my name on a chore chart along with the kids... when it has never been there before is acting like a parent... .and not a spouse... .

Here definition of reasonable and mine... .are worlds apart.

FF

I think it's likely she thinks this exact same thing.  Now, what to do about it?

[formflier]

I think it's likely she thinks this exact same thing.  Now, what to do about it?

I have offered negotiation and compromise... .she has rejected that.

I "just need to stop being ridiculous"

FF

[123Phoebe]

I think it's likely she thinks this exact same thing.  Now, what to do about it?

I have offered negotiation and compromise... .she has rejected that.

I "just need to stop being ridiculous"

FF

Negotiation and compromise, while perfectly sensible "solutions" to you, are just that: "fixing".  She doesn't want it fixed per se', she wants to feel heard, validated, then the solutions can be implemented.

[formflier]

Negotiation and compromise, while perfectly sensible "solutions" to you, are just that: "fixing".  She doesn't want it fixed per se', she wants to feel heard, validated, then the solutions can be implemented.

...

I agree... .her definition of being heard... .as she assured me again today... .is that I do what she say. 

Listen... .I agree... .I'm a sucky validater.  I have other posts bemoaning this... my last attempt that feel flat... .was... yesterday I believe.

I wish I could recall exactly how I said it... .she would not identify an emotion after I had asked ... .I said "that's a tough spot to be in.  I see where you are coming from... .  or something like that... .

She said... "I don't want to hear your empty words... .I want to see your actions"

Sigh...

FF

[123Phoebe]

Listen... .I agree... .I'm a sucky validater. 

There are Lessons to the right side of the screen to help with this!   Let's get crackin'!

[formflier]

Listen... .I agree... .I'm a sucky validater. 

There are Lessons to the right side of the screen to help with this!   Let's get crackin'!

Been trying... .

[123Phoebe]

Listen... .I agree... .I'm a sucky validater. 

There are Lessons to the right side of the screen to help with this!   Let's get crackin'!

Been trying... .

Okay, yea... .  Doesn't sound like it's the right time to be all upbeat for learning.  I hope tomorrow's a better day for you, FF

[misuniadziubek]

Negotiation and compromise, while perfectly sensible "solutions" to you, are just that: "fixing".  She doesn't want it fixed per se', she wants to feel heard, validated, then the solutions can be implemented.

...

I agree... .her definition of being heard... .as she assured me again today... .is that I do what she say. 

Listen... .I agree... .I'm a sucky validater.  I have other posts bemoaning this... my last attempt that feel flat... .was... yesterday I believe.

I wish I could recall exactly how I said it... .she would not identify an emotion after I had asked ... .I said "that's a tough spot to be in.  I see where you are coming from... .  or something like that... .

She said... "I don't want to hear your empty words... .I want to see your actions"

Sigh...

FF

I'll be honest here and say that your validation does seem a little empty. Her response is a common one I hear.

I see where you're cominh from or I understand how you feel are kind of like filler validation words without really showing that you understand the emotion.

I know how... .Annoyed (?) I get when I hear that from someone. I then ask the person to explain it to me because I don't really feel validated.

And sometimes they do and get it completely right and I feel better. But until they tell me I can't be sure. This is especially important when I'm emotional and more reactive.

Often times when I try to validate, I get the response, "yeah I know thats how I feel. That's what I said." And I respond with 'I want to make sure I understand'.

You're doing great regardless. You're slowly making progress and it's making you more reflective. You'll get the hang of it eventually.

[Lunira]

My mother used to obsess over cleaning and lists of chores in particular when she was feeling emotionally unsupported.  It was as if because she wasn't getting validated in other ways, she tried to drum up a sense of usefulness or worth by having a home that was, if anything, so overboard on "clean and organized" that it was uncomfortable to be in... .more like a house you'd see in a magazine or a showroom than a house where people actually live.

Could it be that this is what is happening with your wife?