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maxsterling
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« Reply #30 on: June 18, 2015, 03:58:03 PM »

Excerpt
So somewhere between the occasional door slam and the hitting needs to be a boundary.

Is this something the folks here can help you talk out loud and help sort out here?

For sure!  I recognize there is going to be a certain level of conflict in every relationship.  And I recognize that nearly everyone (myself included) gets frustrated and does something that can be construed as violent.  My reality is that just the amount of cursing bothers me, but then again I did not grow up with that and this is something that I think I need to be somewhat tolerant of. 
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waverider
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« Reply #31 on: June 18, 2015, 05:54:08 PM »

Excerpt
So somewhere between the occasional door slam and the hitting needs to be a boundary.

Is this something the folks here can help you talk out loud and help sort out here?

For sure!  I recognize there is going to be a certain level of conflict in every relationship.  And I recognize that nearly everyone (myself included) gets frustrated and does something that can be construed as violent.  My reality is that just the amount of cursing bothers me, but then again I did not grow up with that and this is something that I think I need to be somewhat tolerant of.  

Accepting people cursing out loud out of frustration, eg can't find there keys is one thing. Being personally cursed at is something you are entitled to put boundaries around if that is not part of the way you operate. Some folks are happy to curse each other out and its all sweet. But that has to be part of their natural way. If one is doing it against the express wishes of the other it is abuse.
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Sunfl0wer
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« Reply #32 on: June 18, 2015, 06:35:36 PM »

Excerpt
So somewhere between the occasional door slam and the hitting needs to be a boundary.

Is this something the folks here can help you talk out loud and help sort out here?

For sure!  I recognize there is going to be a certain level of conflict in every relationship.  And I recognize that nearly everyone (myself included) gets frustrated and does something that can be construed as violent.  My reality is that just the amount of cursing bothers me, but then again I did not grow up with that and this is something that I think I need to be somewhat tolerant of. 

Ok, maybe if we can think about this from the opposite end?  Instead of thinking of a possible behavior... .then assign a boundary... .maybe it could be easier thinking of possible boundaries, list them all, then fit the behaviors into those categories?

For example:

Boundary "S" = State your value

Boundary "I" = Ignore

Boundary "W" = Walk Away

Boundary ":)" = Danger, walk away + call 911

Or maybe come up with your own categories?

Can you put some behaviors into those categories?
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Verbena
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« Reply #33 on: June 18, 2015, 07:14:10 PM »

Even if your wife is never physically violent with you again, never threatens suicide again, never tears the house apart in a rage again, are you okay with her cussing you out/screaming at you?  Will you be okay with her doing that in front of a child?  Leaving a baby/child alone with her seems very, very scary. 

It just seems like you are back peddling and minimizing her behavior in an effort to say this is  "normal" for a person with BPD. 
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waverider
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« Reply #34 on: June 18, 2015, 07:29:22 PM »

For example:

Boundary "S" = State your value

Boundary "I" = Ignore

Boundary "W" = Walk Away

Boundary ":)" = Danger, walk away + call 911

Or maybe come up with your own categories?

Can you put some behaviors into those categories?

Most of those are increasing steps of boundary enforcement and could be applicable for the same issue depending on severity of escalation.

I dont think you could assign individual phases like that to different issues, as even apparent minor issues can escalate to the Danger phase

Stating your value is not a boundary in itself it is just the sign you are erecting in front of it. Often no more than wishful thinking.
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Sunfl0wer
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« Reply #35 on: June 18, 2015, 07:39:35 PM »

So then how does one decide ahead of time what behavior is and isn't acceptable and how to handle it? 

For example:

I knew if my ex hit me = 911 call

If he cursed = so what (I curse awfully... .just not at anyone)

If I was being berated = attempts to deescalate verbally... .if no response... .then walk away
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How wrong it is for a woman to expect the man to build the world she wants, rather than to create it herself.~Anais Nin
waverider
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If YOU don't change, things will stay the same


« Reply #36 on: June 18, 2015, 08:09:07 PM »

So then how does one decide ahead of time what behavior is and isn't acceptable and how to handle it? 

For example:

I knew if my ex hit me = 911 call

If he cursed = so what (I curse awfully... .just not at anyone)

If I was being berated = attempts to deescalate verbally... .if no response... .then walk away

The scale you are talking about should be available to use in a progressive manner to any issues you feel are important boundaries.

In the examples you describe they all fall under abuse. Your boundary is I wont be exposed to abuse. That is one boundary. The application of consequencies increases to maintain your right not to be exposed to it. It is still the one boundary. Disengage>walk away> call help/intervention options are all available as necessary.

The danger is thinking that your response is capped simply because he is "only cursing". The steps are not always that clearly demarked, and it should be based on how you are feeling. Danger= fear for yours, or his, safety, this can happen while still at cursing stage. As your level of discomfort rises the more you strengthen you actions.

A separate boundary may be I won't have my privacy invaded, which could encompass checking you phone/email etc. with a whole range of sliding enforcement too eg changing passwords> locking computer away> refusing to share a bed with someone who treats you with disrespect> whatever it takes to stop your exposure to this behavior.

This is why you have to be certain as to what needs a boundary as you need to keep upping the enforcement (all your proposed responses should be available to you) so the wall is always too high to climb over no matter how hard they try, for if they can escalate their way over the top it sets a precedents that boundaries are merely just obstacles to be surmounted.
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Sunfl0wer
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« Reply #37 on: June 18, 2015, 08:43:09 PM »

Excerpt
The scale you are talking about should be available to use in a progressive manner to any issues you feel are important boundaries.

I made it up. Is there a more official or better scale?  (I did see somewhere that you did some boundary workshop... .maybe you know off the top of your head?)

Excerpt
In the examples you describe they all fall under abuse. Your boundary is I wont be exposed to abuse. That is one boundary. The application of consequencies increases to maintain your right not to be exposed to it. It is still the one boundary. Disengage>walk away> call help/intervention options are all available as necessary.

Ahhh!  Ok, I see your point!  Thanks.  The boundary is not the enforcer to the boundary... .it is the line in the sand that you communicate by voice or action/consequence.

Excerpt
The danger is thinking that your response is capped simply because he is "only cursing". The steps are not always that clearly demarked, and it should be based on how you are feeling. Danger= fear for yours, or his, safety, this can happen while still at cursing stage. As your level of discomfort rises the more you strengthen you actions.

I see your point re cursing.  "Only cursing" is a minimizing statement.  However, cursing does not bother me.  Berating, does bother me... .as the purpose is to minimize me somehow.

I don't think it should be based on feelings always.  There needs to be an exception to this.  Especially as persons are exposed to abusive situations, they can redefine the term abuse to serve several purposes.  They can rationalize that they were not feeling scared, therefore not abused.  My ex raged at me, screaming off the top of his lungs berating me... .appearing impulsive and as though one tiny grain of sand extra would cause an A bomb.  I sat, unmoved by his display.  I literally felt no fear.  I WAS being treated with abusive behavior.  So when an abused person keeps moving the benchmark farther and farther back on the definition of abuse... .maybe there is another way to think of this?

Excerpt
A separate boundary may be I won't have my privacy invaded, which could encompass checking you phone/email etc. with a whole range of sliding enforcement too eg changing passwords> locking computer away> refusing to share a bed with someone who treats you with disrespect> whatever it takes to stop your exposure to this behavior.

This is why you have to be certain as to what needs a boundary as you need to keep upping the enforcement (all your proposed responses should be available to you) so the wall is always too high to climb over no matter how hard they try, for if they can escalate their way over the top it sets a precedents that boundaries are merely just obstacles to be surmounted.

This makes sense.  Thank you for explaining this all!  It sounds like I still have so much to learn.

So then what is a good and helpful approach for Max to think of things in his desire to sort out his boundary choices?
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