Deep wisdom needed

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

I could use some deep thinking and good ideas about talking with my SD15 about her desire to live with her mom more of the time.  She has asked both DH and I to meet with her about this.

Here is where things stand now.  DH and BPD mom have 50/50 custody. BPD mom is in a bad way presently--the last two times I have connected with her she has been completed tanked.  After a recent graduation dinner with family, DH picked up the tab... .including a $60 bar tab in the next-door bar at a place that has $6 drinks... .during a 1.5 hour dinner.  She was planning to drive the kids home, but she was so tanked that most of the family insisted she let her date drive all home.

She also has been really open to me, including letting me really take care of her when she is falling apart emotionally.  The girls witnessed me really being caring with their mom when mom was having a really hard time, and they both are feeling close to me. 

My sense is that SD15 is having a hard time going back and forth because it is hard to transition between being totally responsible for her mom, and completely enmeshed and entangled with her mom in a way that makes it feel okay that her mom is not a safe person. When she comes back to our house, she gets to act like a kid, and a young adult, and gets treated like a person, not an extension of mom.  I think she feels guilty that her mom is really not doing well right now, responsible, and guilty for how close she is feeling to me and DH right now.  Honestly, I think she is afraid of growing up and losing that close, enmeshed, needed feeling she has with her mommy, and I think she will lose it.  So she is really clinging to mom right now. 

What happens is when she gets to our house, she insists she wants to live with mom, that mom says she is old enough to choose, and that she wants to talk about it.  I say that I think if she wants to talk with daddy, she should wait until it is not transition day, and that they should schedule a time because it is a big topic.  She says okay, and then does not want to schedule it ever as the 2 weeks with us wears on.  The day she leaves to return to mom, she makes a big deal about it again. 

This last time period, BPD mom has done a lot of very scary stuff... .almost getting kicked out of her daughter's graduation for threatening to push another parent she barely knows down the stairs, being drunk and inappropriate in front of the kids, etc.  We have told SD15 so far (DH as a dad, and me as an advisor, because she asked) that until she is willing to talk about some of the hard things about being at mommy's, the way she talks about hard things with us to mommy, DH does not feel safe having her always with mom.  Also, he would really miss her and he loves her.  I have said that when stuff is really painful, it is hard to talk about, and we do not want to make her talk about it.  But this is a big decision, and she would need to be up front about safety stuff (drunk driving, etc) for DH to be willing to make this radical of a change. 

When we say this, she acknowledges she is not ready to talk about it, but she is close. 

Meanwhile, I have been asking DH to get her a new counselor for the past 3 years.  I feel like she needs that support.

The long and short of what I want your wise advice about is how to approach talking about mom.  I feel like SD15 really knows at this point that I do not judge her mom, that I actually can really love her mom, and know that she is struggling with some stuff that is really hard.  I feel so grateful I do not have her history of such horrible child abuse... .I honestly do not know how she keeps it as together as she does.  And, I also think that she is not able to listen and be there for her kids, and especially SD15 in a way that supports her in finding her own center.  I also think that her mom engages in vERY dangerous behavior on a regular basis, and is also very raging, blaming, and unable to process difficult feelings, really at all.

DH pretty much feels like until SD15 has her own license, it is non-negotiable that she live with us half time at least... .BPD mom is much more prone to dangerous behavior when she has the kids for lengthy periods, so it makes a big difference if she is with us at least half time. 

I am asking for advice as I think that if we really listen, and talk with her about our concerns in a way that is real (and sensitive), then she could be open to see it a different way at some point.  So I am curious what you think. 

Just so you know, DH also has many ideas about this, and the only reason I would be included in a "meeting" is because SD15 would like me to be present.  I am just writing for advice because DH does not use this site. 

Let me know what ideas you have!

[ennie]

I could use some deep thinking and good ideas about talking with my SD15 about her desire to live with her mom more of the time.  She has asked both DH and I to meet with her about this.

Here is where things stand now.  DH and BPD mom have 50/50 custody. BPD mom is in a bad way presently--the last two times I have connected with her she has been completed tanked.  After a recent graduation dinner with family, DH picked up the tab... .including a $60 bar tab in the next-door bar at a place that has $6 drinks... .during a 1.5 hour dinner.  She was planning to drive the kids home, but she was so tanked that most of the family insisted she let her date drive all home.

She also has been really open to me, including letting me really take care of her when she is falling apart emotionally.  The girls witnessed me really being caring with their mom when mom was having a really hard time, and they both are feeling close to me. 

My sense is that SD15 is having a hard time going back and forth because it is hard to transition between being totally responsible for her mom, and completely enmeshed and entangled with her mom in a way that makes it feel okay that her mom is not a safe person. When she comes back to our house, she gets to act like a kid, and a young adult, and gets treated like a person, not an extension of mom.  I think she feels guilty that her mom is really not doing well right now, responsible, and guilty for how close she is feeling to me and DH right now.  Honestly, I think she is afraid of growing up and losing that close, enmeshed, needed feeling she has with her mommy, and I think she will lose it.  So she is really clinging to mom right now. 

What happens is when she gets to our house, she insists she wants to live with mom, that mom says she is old enough to choose, and that she wants to talk about it.  I say that I think if she wants to talk with daddy, she should wait until it is not transition day, and that they should schedule a time because it is a big topic.  She says okay, and then does not want to schedule it ever as the 2 weeks with us wears on.  The day she leaves to return to mom, she makes a big deal about it again. 

This last time period, BPD mom has done a lot of very scary stuff... .almost getting kicked out of her daughter's graduation for threatening to push another parent she barely knows down the stairs, being drunk and inappropriate in front of the kids, etc.  We have told SD15 so far (DH as a dad, and me as an advisor, because she asked) that until she is willing to talk about some of the hard things about being at mommy's, the way she talks about hard things with us to mommy, DH does not feel safe having her always with mom.  Also, he would really miss her and he loves her.  I have said that when stuff is really painful, it is hard to talk about, and we do not want to make her talk about it.  But this is a big decision, and she would need to be up front about safety stuff (drunk driving, etc) for DH to be willing to make this radical of a change. 

When we say this, she acknowledges she is not ready to talk about it, but she is close. 

Meanwhile, I have been asking DH to get her a new counselor for the past 3 years.  I feel like she needs that support.

The long and short of what I want your wise advice about is how to approach talking about mom.  I feel like SD15 really knows at this point that I do not judge her mom, that I actually can really love her mom, and know that she is struggling with some stuff that is really hard.  I feel so grateful I do not have her history of such horrible child abuse... .I honestly do not know how she keeps it as together as she does.  And, I also think that she is not able to listen and be there for her kids, and especially SD15 in a way that supports her in finding her own center.  I also think that her mom engages in vERY dangerous behavior on a regular basis, and is also very raging, blaming, and unable to process difficult feelings, really at all.

DH pretty much feels like until SD15 has her own license, it is non-negotiable that she live with us half time at least... .BPD mom is much more prone to dangerous behavior when she has the kids for lengthy periods, so it makes a big difference if she is with us at least half time. 

I am asking for advice as I think that if we really listen, and talk with her about our concerns in a way that is real (and sensitive), then she could be open to see it a different way at some point.  So I am curious what you think. 

Just so you know, DH also has many ideas about this, and the only reason I would be included in a "meeting" is because SD15 would like me to be present.  I am just writing for advice because DH does not use this site. 

Let me know what ideas you have!

[bravhart1]

Ennie,

Remind me, does mom know she is BPD?

How old is other SD now? Is she being affected by moms recent behavior?

[enlighten me]

It sounds like your sd is torn between being a good daughter and not wanting to have to deal with mums behaviour. It is difficult. With my boys ive always told them that they must do what they want  I never put any pressure on them and told them that it wasnt fair on them if their mum did. This weekend it came to a head and they both decided they want to live with me. They have had enough of their mums behaviour and lies. They have also had enough of their stepdads bullying ways.

Now they are so relaxed. You can see the relief yhat it is over. They sleep like logs and arent as clingy as they were.

Ive spoken to them about how I dont want them going back anymore. Ive never put that type of pressure on them before as I didnt think it was fair.

I told them that the stress was not good for them and they needed to be children. They have exams coming up in a couple of years and that would be stressful enough without having to deal with their household.

I assured them that it doesnt mean they dont love their mum and it was alright to do what they wanted rather than not hurting peoples feelings.

[livednlearned]

I am asking for advice as I think that if we really listen, and talk with her about our concerns in a way that is real (and sensitive), then she could be open to see it a different way at some point. 

What about if you approach it as SD talking about her concerns? Framed as an opportunity for her to be heard, knowing that the decision is a big one, best approached when everyone feels they can voice how they feel -- in stages, so the whole thing isn't kitchen sinked.

Let her describe how she would balance the two households as she gains greater independence. Maybe you could ask validating questions that give her some agency (could that be what she's seeking as part of regular adolescence?). How often would she come over? Would she ever sleep over? If she decides to be full-time with mom, does that mean younger SD gets the room (if I remember correctly, older SD has a place of her own out back)?

Psychologically, if she is wishy-washy (which it sounds like she might be, since she doesn't arrange to meet), then it seems like the goal is to get her to see on her own that this is a big decision -- she might lose her spot in your home, for example. And you will want her to think about a schedule for coming over so that people understand how it's going to be, including younger SD. These might be things she has not yet thought about, and imagines ground rules will stay the same in a way that isn't really fair to you, DH, or SD.

If things go well at her moms, but then they don't, what then?

It would take a lot of strength and skill to have a conversation like this. It seems like you have that. It means framing it carefully so SD15 does not feel that she is calling the shots, and yet allowing her to think through the cumbersome task of coming up with a plan that works with your boundaries. She may want the respect, but not be ready for the responsibility.

[ennie]

I will write about this in a separate post, too, as this was AMAZING.  I did not check back here as the week was VERY busy, but I basically accidentally followed livednlearned's advice to a tee!

I drove SD15 to various events this week, and started by introducing some of the ways I see the world.  Talking about ways people are different (race, physical disability) and how I have learned that to connect with people who are different than me it helps not to pretend that they are the same.  I also talked about what the idea of "rescue" means to me, and how it can interfere with relationships. I told her overtly that I was telling her this as background for our talk about mom's house, so she did not later feel ambushed.

Today I took on talking with her about the bigger issues.  I had told her a few weeks ago that instead of telling her why she should not live at mom's, I wanted to support her in what she wanted, and in troubleshooting possible problems and figuring out solutions--some of which might take time--to get to where she wanted to go.

So this time I asked her to tell me what she saw as the obstacles, what we thought and how she saw it differently, and possible general solutions. 

She hit the easier issues first.  Then I spoke with her about my two biggest concerns:  1) mom's drinking and SD15 pretending it was not happening; and 2) mom's aggressive behavior and victim story, and SD15's enmeshment and need to agree with this story instead of making her own way. 

Wow.  I am not sure if I mentioned this earlier, but mom had recently threatened violence at SD15's graduation, and then become very drunk at the family dinner and acted out.  As we started talking, and I was asking about her level of awareness about this... .was she not aware?  Aware but protecting mom?  Aware but just pretending it was not the way it is?  And SD15 started sobbing and telling me after the graduation several kids approached her and made fun of her mom, saying she was drunk at the event.  SD15 was crushed, and especially because she was pretty sure mom was not drunk.  She told me she knows her mom has a drinking problem, but that why she flipped out at this other lady was because when she gets stressed, something goes wrong in her, and she will just lose it.  But she did not see her mom drink until after the event.  She so wanted me to believe her, and she was in so much pain about how people saw her mom.  I just held her and told her what I imagined it was like for her to love her mom so much, to see her goodness and how so many others could not see it, and then judged her for her weakest parts, and that she could do nothing about it.  She just cried. 

Then we got to have a totally honest and loving conversation about her mom and what I see the risks are at this age.  One of the big things I wanted to tell her is that when trauma happens, like it did to her mom, then we tend to think in a black and white way and make a small story, in which people are out to harm or help you.  Her mom has a small story.  We spoke in detail about brain functioning and how trauma impacts that in a long term way, in specific ways.  But for SD15, she has the ability to make a much bigger story, one in which her feelings are part of a greater whole, in which nobody is bad.  But to do that, she can't only ally with her mom's story, because then she also has that small story.  To help her mom, she has to help herself.  We talked about how her mom projects her feelings on others, and so forth. 

For the first time every, she talked about how hard it was for her that her mom sees things so black and white, how hard it is that mom rages at others, then totally blames herself.  She talked about how sometimes it is okay with her and sometimes it is not.  She also talked about how her mom drinks and how that impacts her.  And about how her mom is really fun a lot of the time, but has a really hard time around transitions and stress, how she can't really deal with any stress at all.   

She also told me that seeing me hugging her mom and being with her mom after graduation was amazing, and she cried when she said that.  She said she imagined that the best thing for her mom would be if she and I could go on a trip, and just talk and I could help her and not judger her. 

Then, SD15 started crying and said, "I want you to know I love you SO much.  And all those times I tried to pretend I did not were not true; that you are so, so important to me, more than you can know.  I see all you do for me and my sister, and how solid you are and always loved me no matter what.  You are really one of my very best friends and I just want you to know how much I really REALLY love you." 

I just said, "I know sweeting.  I knew that all along.  I could tell." 

She then asked me not to tell her dad about some of the details of the conversation, about how it was for her dealing with the most difficult parts of her mom, and how critical people had been of her mom recently and how she felt about that, and I said that was fine with me because of how honest she was being with me, and that I encourage her to be this honest with her dad, but that I totally trust her and want her to be able to tell her own stories to her dad, and to feel like she can also speak freely to me. 

I expressed a lot of love for her back, and also gratitude that she was able to be so honest and vulnerable about such painful stuff, and that as far as living with her mom, I do not have any choice, but I imagine that the concerns I raised were really pretty long term projects, SD15 being able and willing to increase awareness of her mom's drinking and being able to develop some safe choices.  She really sees me as a possible ally for her mom at this point, which is very touching.  I shared that I think that when her mom and I are connecting well, this is threatening for her mom because her mom feels like I am better and she is worse.  But that it is important to me to keep that connection, so that if SD15 needs to call because BPD mom is too drunk to drive, she can. 

Also, the project of allowing herself to have her own story, to not need to tell mom everything, but to tell someone, so she can see things her own way--not "the world is out to get me," but that we all have our parts to play. 

For SD15, it was a huge emergence into adulthood, freedom, and happiness.  She released something huge, and she is so relaxed, happy and loving. 

For me, it was the amazing conversation I secretly hoped would one day happen when SD15 was 30... .and I got it, 15 years early.  Wow.  I cannot believe how brave, strong, and profound this kid is.  I am really touched, amazed, and aware of how much of a difference having me in her life makes for her, much because I really do accept her mom, warts and all, even when she has threatened to kill me.  It is just such a miracle to have SD15 see it too, and get to an age where she can see it and see that her mom cannot see the same way.  And, her bursting into tears and confessing that she actually REALLY REALLY loves me, as if her pretending to be made at me around mothers' day, or yelling, "I do not event want you in my life!" when I hurt her feelings by asking for some alone time ever made me question this kid's totally rock solid love for me.  Also, the fact that she sees and notices my consistency.  That she could say, "You are like a rock.  You are always there for me, no matter how mad I am." 

So I am pretty blown away.  I do not think that I ever imagined feeling this much love for my step girls.  They fill my heart in unimaginable ways, love me way more than I expected to be loved by them, and I find I have a far more profound relationship with them and effect on them than I imagined possible.  It is pretty overwhelming, but in a good way.  What a day.

[enlighten me]

I think maybe your step daughter didnt realise her mum was drunk because she was used to seeing her like that. Sometimes its not until someone else points out something that you notice it. She was probably used to seeing her after having a few drinks that it became the norm and it was only when she got really drink that she noticed.

[ennie]

I think maybe your step daughter didnt realise her mum was drunk because she was used to seeing her like that. Sometimes its not until someone else points out something that you notice it. She was probably used to seeing her after having a few drinks that it became the norm and it was only when she got really drink that she noticed.

We had a very detailed discussion about this, and I think that she is right.  I am not certain mom was drunk, and SD15 said very clearly that her mom was drunk later.  Her mom probably did smoke marijuana before hand, which does loosen inhibition.  But SD15's insight that mom's wiring goes haywire when she is stressed I think is right on.  I think she acts that way under stress whether drunk or not. 

The amazing thing about our conversation was that SD15 was willing to see her mom and share with me, and willing to be more observant and come to know her mom's drinking better over time.  Until now, she has never admitted mom drinks at all, though I know she knows that, but totally covered for mom.  It is huge that she could acknowledge that, and I think one of the things that was so painful for her is that her mom was accused of drinking during a time SD15 was pretty sure she did not drink, though the rest of the day she was completely intoxicated.  This felt so unfair to SD15, but she could not tell anyone that... ."My mom was NOT drunk then, I know because she WAS drunk the rest of the day."

Hard stuff. 

[ennie]

Ennie,

Remind me, does mom know she is BPD?

How old is other SD now? Is she being affected by moms recent behavior?

SD11 is now 11, and is very affected, but in a different way.  She is not enmeshed, and mom can be meant to her.  She has been learning how to deal with this.  She also can talk more with us about her feelings, and so is less destroyed by mom.  She is more bonded to DH and me, I think. 

BPD mom has been diagnosed, but her BF was told, and then he told her in a conflict.  So she has completely rejected the diagnosis, but often talks about how she is "crazy," and everyone thinks she is crazy. But she would never explain this to the kids.  Right now, with SD15 I feel like it is best just to address behavior, until she is older, and SD11 is too young to be weighted down with an idea about mom that mom would never agree with.

[livednlearned]

Wow Ennie -- what a touching conversation to have with SD. It's so moving to hear that a child with a BPD parent can manage that level of resilience.

It's so shaming to have a drunk in the family. My guess is that SD17 knows with laser-sharp precision exactly when her mom is impaired. And I mean impaired -- not necessarily drunk. Most people who live with alcoholics have a fine-tuned sense. With a T's help guiding me, I told S13 about his dad's drinking when he was 8. S13 didn't know until then what the "thing" was, but he definitely knew there was a thing. He blew me away when he said something along the lines of, "I know when daddy is drinking because he uses different words." That was incredibly insightful because even after a few sips of wine, N/BPDx would start to use what I thought of as victim language. Just a few drops of alcohol and his filter was out the window.

SD probably needs some cognitive dissonance so she can protect the shame she feels, for her mom and for her. You let her feel the pain of that dissonance without it being threatening to her, while also making it clear there are safety issues.

One of the principles of DBT that I think everyone could benefit from is: two seemingly opposite things can both be true. You're helping SD15 perceive in that way. We often think people with BPD struggle with that principle, but I think all of us struggle with it to some extent. Even knowing this principle, I struggle to hold it in my thoughts when confronted with challenging relationships.

Really liked the way you explained the "small story" too.