confessions of a thick headed validation student...

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

I had an interaction with my mom today... .that may highlight how things work in my FOO.

They have a new car with an electronic parking brake.  She is trying to get out of the driveway and somehow engages it.

She doesn't handle stress well... .is worried she will not have enough time with granddaughter ... .I can't figure it out... .Mom is obviously upset... .and getting worse... ."oh gosh... .call someone... just call "ff dad"... "

I said... ."mom... it will be ok... I will figure it out and help you... ."

I went inside... .and left her and daughter in car as I went to try and call.  I ended up getting on youtube... .(no manual in car)

Anyway... .we got it figured out... .on her way she went.

That "felt" normal for me.  That is how we do things... .that is how I "automatically" do things.

Reassure someone... .set about fixing...

So... .yeah... .I'm going to spend time in lessons... will be posting questions... .I have read lessons a lot. 

It... .feels clumsy... .my head seems thick...

But... I wanted to relate this story... .in hopes of getting pointed in right direction... .or someone else had similar raising... and became a validater.

FF

[formflier]

I had an interaction with my mom today... .that may highlight how things work in my FOO.

They have a new car with an electronic parking brake.  She is trying to get out of the driveway and somehow engages it.

She doesn't handle stress well... .is worried she will not have enough time with granddaughter ... .I can't figure it out... .Mom is obviously upset... .and getting worse... ."oh gosh... .call someone... just call "ff dad"... "

I said... ."mom... it will be ok... I will figure it out and help you... ."

I went inside... .and left her and daughter in car as I went to try and call.  I ended up getting on youtube... .(no manual in car)

Anyway... .we got it figured out... .on her way she went.

That "felt" normal for me.  That is how we do things... .that is how I "automatically" do things.

Reassure someone... .set about fixing...

So... .yeah... .I'm going to spend time in lessons... will be posting questions... .I have read lessons a lot. 

It... .feels clumsy... .my head seems thick...

But... I wanted to relate this story... .in hopes of getting pointed in right direction... .or someone else had similar raising... and became a validater.

FF

[MaroonLiquid]

I had an interaction with my mom today... .that may highlight how things work in my FOO.

They have a new car with an electronic parking brake.  She is trying to get out of the driveway and somehow engages it.

She doesn't handle stress well... .is worried she will not have enough time with granddaughter ... .I can't figure it out... .Mom is obviously upset... .and getting worse... ."oh gosh... .call someone... just call "ff dad"... "

I said... ."mom... it will be ok... I will figure it out and help you... ."

I went inside... .and left her and daughter in car as I went to try and call.  I ended up getting on youtube... .(no manual in car)

Anyway... .we got it figured out... .on her way she went.

That "felt" normal for me.  That is how we do things... .that is how I "automatically" do things.

Reassure someone... .set about fixing...

So... .yeah... .I'm going to spend time in lessons... will be posting questions... .I have read lessons a lot. 

It... .feels clumsy... .my head seems thick...

But... I wanted to relate this story... .in hopes of getting pointed in right direction... .or someone else had similar raising... and became a validater.

FF

I relate to validation feeling clumsy.  I think it was because I was never validated much as a kid.  It almost feels like I'm not being sincere even though I am... .

[formflier]

 

OK... .ring the bell... school is in.

Quick update... .wife believes I am chasing women... .again... .and not listening to her.

Proposed attempted validation statement...

"It must be hard, after all this time and work on the r/s, to be facing this issue again... ."

What about changing issue to feeling?

FF

[Skip]

If things are clam, why not sit down, tell her you are just going to listen, and ask her to tell you what is on her mind.

[MaroonLiquid]

OK... .ring the bell... school is in.

Quick update... .wife believes I am chasing women... .again... .and not listening to her.

Proposed attempted validation statement...

"It must be hard, after all this time and work on the r/s, to be facing this issue again... ."

What about changing issue to feeling?

FF

How about, "It is hard to feel that I'm not paying attention to you.  I can see how that would give you the impression that I must be giving my attention to someone else if I'm not paying atention to my wife."

[formflier]

If things are clam, why not sit down, tell her you are just going to listen, and ask her to tell you what is on her mind.

I did... .

I said something to the effect that I wanted to listen and understand where she was coming from... . She was sort of wandering about in the living room... seemed calm... .I asked her to sit next to me.

She went back to same story... .went from zero to 60 before I could respond.  I exited room... .she vented for a couple minutes... .and then life went on.

Entire event was 5 minutes... .tops... .

FF

[Skip]

What's her side of the story - as she tells it.

[Oooohm]

"It must be hard, after all this time and work on the r/s, to be facing this issue again... ."

What about changing issue to feeling?

FF

No... .not quite... .

Change "Facing" to "Feeling", Leave "issue" alone.

"Facing" signifies an "Admission", a "Confirmation" that it is true.

"It must be hard, after all this time and work on the r/s, to be feeling this issue again... ."

Proper Validation is about acknowledging "Feelings"... .Not presenting facts, trying calm them, or even trying to understand them.

[vortex of confusion]

She went back to same story... .went from zero to 60 before I could respond.  I exited room... .she vented for a couple minutes... .and then life went on.

Entire event was 5 minutes... .tops... .

Maybe you need an intermediate step in there. . .

Stop listening to respond. Just listen. It used to drive me crazy when I would try to have a conversation with my husband. I would be trying to get out what I was thinking and he would respond. His response would irritate me because I felt like he was listening so he could find something to respond to rather than just listen. And, I know that I feel better when he tells me, "I don't know what to say rather than respond." I know that there have times that my husband has felt backed into a corner because it seemed like whatever response he gave would irritate me. It irritated me because I felt like he was cutting me off with his responses.

The step to take before validation is NOT invalidating. Slow down and pay attention to whether or not what you are saying/doing is invalidating.

[formflier]

her talking to me...

Given your history... .You know you have to choose me or her... .you get a high from reaching out to other women and you keep doing it... . You know where this will lead... .

with slight variations... .this is consistent theme. 

Ground zero for this was an "incident" in the house that we were flooded out of.  

During the rebuidling phase... .she decided to stay in the house that night (no warning... .but I should have known).  I started to go back to the house where we were staying... .to get a hot shower... .good nights sleep... and try it again next day.  We had been doing this for weeks... same pattern.

Well... she said you are going to spend time with "her"... .and named the lady that owned the house that was nice enough to let us stay there.  I said I would be more than happy to stay if that would help.  (this is 2009).

I stayed... .

My wife keeps referencing this event as the first "proof" of my affection for another... .

FF

[formflier]

Maybe you need an intermediate step in there. . .

Long periods of "just listening"... .will end with "I don't know why I ever talk to you... .you never listen... ."

Ask a clarifying question "If you have to ask... .blah blah"

Sigh...

[KateCat]

Wow, I am full of admiration for these repeated attempts of yours, formflier.

For me, years of going around and around in dialogue with paranoia . . . and then being willing to get up and do it again, is akin to being willing to face Mike Tyson in a rematch. For my money, the template offered by oohm is pure gold: "it must be really tough to be feeling this." This is my go-to form of communication.

I also consider anything that winds down and ends quickly to be a successful outcome. I focus on recovering more and more quickly from each event.

[MaroonLiquid]

and then being willing to get up and do it again, is akin to being willing to face Mike Tyson in a rematch.

I got a mental picture of FF listening to his wife and she bit his ear off... .Mike Tyson against Evander Holyfield... .  Total BPD mental picture there... .

That's it!  Mike Tyson is BPD!  Six degrees of separation right there!

[vortex of confusion]

Long periods of "just listening"... .will end with "I don't know why I ever talk to you... .you never listen... ."

Ask a clarifying question "If you have to ask... .blah blah"

Sigh...

 

Okay, those two things don't work... .

What other options are there?

Help me understand seems to have varying results. . .

How does she respond when you say things like, "Hmm, I will have to think about that." Or "I can see why you might think that."

[formflier]

How does she respond when you say things like, "Hmm, I will have to think about that." Or "I can see why you might think that."

You know... .thinking about KateCat's post... ending and recovering quickly...

Sometimes... .many times... .(lately)... .walking away and leaving her "venting" in a room by herself is best... .if the measure is return to baseline.

A couple times I used Grey Kitty's line of... ."I should leave now before I say something I will regret... ."

FF

[Oooohm]

You know... .thinking about KateCat's post... ending and recovering quickly...

Sometimes... .many times... .(lately)... .walking away and leaving her "venting" in a room by herself is best... .if the measure is return to baseline.

FF

I may be wrong but I think what KateCat meant was "her" recovery from each event... .not her Husbands.

How do YOU feel after an event? How long does it take for you to recover?  More importantly... .Are you "wearing" it openly for your wife to see?

[maxsterling]

If things are clam, why not sit down, tell her you are just going to listen, and ask her to tell you what is on her mind.

I like this approach.  Trying to have a conversation, offer validation, or offer rebuttal is futile.  Basically, a two sided conversation about this subject is an automatic JADE.  Yet, refusing to discuss it and trying to enforce that boundary feels extremely invalidating to them.   Sometimes they just want to vent in all their nastiness, and for you to listen.  Yeah, hard to sit an listen to, and sometimes (at least with my wife) they WANT you to respond and JADE.  Trick is to show you are listening and care without falling into their JADE trap.

[KateCat]

Trick is to show you are listening and care without falling into their JADE trap.

I think this is it. And this is what helps me recover more quickly each time too. (Though I know similar accusations will return another day.)

[maxsterling]

Trick is to show you are listening and care without falling into their JADE trap.

I think this is it. And this is what helps me recover more quickly each time too. (Though I know similar accusations will return another day.)

Same here.  Sure, it's hard to not take her rants personally, but most of them are so out there that I either want to laugh or just feel sad for her.  But she needs her rants, and she needs to be heard.  It was the same way with my parents growing up.  My dad would recognize my mom's bad mood for weeks, and he would wait for the other shoe to drop.  He told me once he finally learned to intentionally try and set her off so she would blow off steam and return to baseline.  Seems to be the same with my wife.  She feels like nobody listens to her, ever.  When she gets a chance to vent, it may be ugly, but usually she feels better.  Last night's MC session was a good example.  She was all over the place, blaming me for everything, crying, calling me names, but afterwards we had a nice dinner.

[waverider]

Do any of these apply to you?

• Rigid adherence to rules and regulations

• An overwhelming need for order

• Unwillingness to yield or give responsibilities to others

• A sense of righteousness about the way things “should be done”

These are the basic characteristics that create the "dog at a bone" fixer mentality trying to apply logic and tools to get an understandable result

[formflier]

  He told me once he finally learned to intentionally try and set her off so she would blow off steam and return to baseline.  Seems to be the same with my wife.

I have been considering a similar strategy... .

Because... .after a good let out of steam... .things go to baseline... .or better... .then... it starts back up again.

FF

[123Phoebe]

  He told me once he finally learned to intentionally try and set her off so she would blow off steam and return to baseline.  Seems to be the same with my wife.

I have been considering a similar strategy... .

Because... .after a good let out of steam... .things go to baseline... .or better... .then... it starts back up again.

FF

Whoa, okay... .    Sounds more like "entering the fray".  Can you help me understand how this constitutes a good strategy?  

[jcarter4856]

  He told me once he finally learned to intentionally try and set her off so she would blow off steam and return to baseline.  Seems to be the same with my wife.

I have been considering a similar strategy... .

Because... .after a good let out of steam... .things go to baseline... .or better... .then... it starts back up again.

I've been through this many times (imaginary affairs with work colleagues, baby sitters, women shopping in the grocery store... .). But honestly lately I've been having success with an approach where if she says something that's plain nuts, I just tell her it's nuts and suggest she stop saying crazy things. Seems to work better than the validation orthodoxy.

[formflier]

Whoa, okay... .    Sounds more like "entering the fray".  Can you help me understand how this constitutes a good strategy?  

OK... .this may not be possible... .I'm dreaming a bit here... .but... wouldn't it be nice... .if sometimes could go ahead and get it over with... .the dysreg... .and then get back to a period of normalcy.

You are right though... wouldn't want to enter the fray... .or really "participate" in it

FF

[formflier]

Do any of these apply to you?

• Rigid adherence to rules and regulations

• An overwhelming need for order

• Unwillingness to yield or give responsibilities to others

• A sense of righteousness about the way things “should be done”

These are the basic characteristics that create the "dog at a bone" fixer mentality trying to apply logic and tools to get an understandable result

I like rules and regs... .but wouldn't want to say "rigid".  However... .non military guys would probably see me as rigid... .

Inside the military I was on the "flexible" side of rules...

I like order... .but it seems to be contextual... .cooking... .I like to do certain way... .same thing flying plane... .but... .putting away clothes... (they are all over place... .not organized well.)  Same with my garage... it's a mess...

I enjoy training others to take responsibility... .as long as they have been trained... I'm happy to hand it off...

Yeah... there is a right way and a wrong way... .I'm definitely guilty of the last one...

FF

[Skip]

But how does it feel ti her in the life she is sharing with you?

[vortex of confusion]

But how does it feel ti her in the life she is sharing with you?

This reminds me of something I was reading the other day. I was looking for ideas to improve my relationship with my husband. I have been looking at a lot of articles about "normal" relationships and exercises that counselors give couples to help them get on the same page. The exercise was to write down what you think it would be like to live with you (good and bad). How would YOU feel if you had to live with somebody like you day in and day out?

[Oooohm]

This reminds me of something I was reading the other day. I was looking for ideas to improve my relationship with my husband. I have been looking at a lot of articles about "normal" relationships and exercises that counselors give couples to help them get on the same page. The exercise was to write down what you think it would be like to live with you (good and bad). How would YOU feel if you had to live with somebody like you day in and day out?

Awesome exercise !    Don't think my wife has that ability... .To see herself, outside of herself, and put herself in "Someone else shoes".   Would be an interesting experiment tho... .

[Skip]

I think the context of the remark is about us doing it... .seeing ourselves as we are seen by our partner 

[Oooohm]

Aaaaah... .

Yes, I get it.  That would be helpful.