Boundary question

[Hmcbart]

It came up while I was at my T today. How do you enforce a boundary if divorce isn't an option?

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[vortex of confusion]

I think it depends on the situation and what it is that you are trying to protect.

For example, I used to let my husband have access to all of my accounts. He got into one and then flipped out about what he found. From then on, I stopped letting him have access to my accounts.

What is it that you are wanting to set a boundary about? It is difficult to give ideas without more details.

[waverider]

A boundary is not a the same as a deal breaker.

A boundary is an area that you will enact something so that you are not exposed to a particular behavior. That boundary action is specific only to that behavior. Once the behavior stops so does the boundary enforcement.

eg abusive behavior could be subject to a boundary> removing yourself if you feel unsafe, >temporary while behavior continues

Actual assault could be a dealbreaker> The relationship is over. >Not reversable

Why is divorce as a deal breaker not an option?

[Hmcbart]

V- I don't have any good examples yet. It was something my T asked me yesterday about my thoughts on the lack of love and affection. He asked "when is enough enough if she won't respect your boundaries with regard to showing affection?"

That's when I told him that divorce was off the table as an option I will choose right now.

Waverider- divorce is not a deal breaker for me because of the kids. There isn't any real physical abuse to myself or the kids. If it did occur then it would be an option. Right now, with the way the courts work and the fact that both our families live several states away, it would mean a lot more difficulty spending time with the kids. I'm the buffer for a lot of her actions and anger, especially with the oldest. I won't leave then to deal with it on their own. I may have done that too much as it is with all of the travel I do for for my job.

[vortex of confusion]

V- I don't have any good examples yet. It was something my T asked me yesterday about my thoughts on the lack of love and affection. He asked "when is enough enough if she won't respect your boundaries with regard to showing affection?"

I am a bit confused about this. You can't force somebody to give you love and affection.

I have spent a lot of time trying to alter my thinking and redefine things for myself. If my husband were just a room mate, would expect some things from him? For me, the goal is to shift my thinking so that I can stay and be happy without being so worried about what my husband is or isn't doing.

One of the things that I did do was to tell my husband that I didn't like the way he treated me. I am his wife and I want to be treated like a wife. If he isn't going to treat me like a wife, then I am not going to act like a wife. I stopped sleeping in the same room as him. It wasn't to punish him. It was to protect me. I couldn't spend the day being ignored and treated crappy only to go to bed and lay next to him and try to sleep. So, I started sleeping on the couch or on the floor in the kids' room. He does treat me a lot better so I do attempt to sleep in the bed with him on occasion. I am still not in a place where I trust him enough to try to sleep in the bedroom with him every night again.

And, I could emotionally distance myself and try to detach from things a bit. If we were to separate, I wouldn't be getting any love or affection either.  If divorce isn't a possibility, I can spend the next couple of years preparing myself mentally and emotionally. I feel like things have changed and my husband has been making a lot more of an effort to plug in. I am not too hopeful that it is a permanent change. I am trying to enjoy the changes but am still trying to get myself into a good place mentally so that I don't break down or get too frustrated when he slips back into old patterns.

[IsItHerOrIsItMe]

I think it depends on the situation and what it is that you are trying to protect.

For example, I used to let my husband have access to all of my accounts. He got into one and then flipped out about what he found. From then on, I stopped letting him have access to my accounts.

I can't even get there... .I leave my phone around, and my uBPDw knows the code to unlock it.  In her mind it's still "evidence" because I won't hand her the phone and sit there with her while she goes through everything.

I state she has access to my phone, but if she chooses to snoop then I view that as an invasion of privacy.  If I"m having an affair, she may find evidence, but if I'm not then it's her that's damaging the relationship.

I've stated 100's of times that that was my opinion back when I started snooping with my exW... .if I was wrong then it was me that was doing the damage.

[vortex of confusion]

I can't even get there... .I leave my phone around, and my uBPDw knows the code to unlock it.  In her mind it's still "evidence" because I won't hand her the phone and sit there with her while she goes through everything.

That is on her, not you. Change the code. Yes, it will make her mad. The thing is that you have a right to privacy. In her mind, the fact that the smell of your farts have changed is evidence. I am not trying to be flip. When somebody makes up his/her mind that things are a certain way, then everything they see is going to confirm that what they think is true.

I think it is better to be accused for NOT giving the information. Here is why. If you give them the information, then they will find that many more things to confirm their suspicions. Those things could be completely benign and innocent. Now, you are being accused for not sharing information quickly enough, which is compounded by whatever little breadcrumbs can be found while looking. Sharing is feeding the beast so to speak.

[Corpal74]

Yes it would depend on what boundaries.

In general it would be add if your living with a child or teenager.

1. Be firm. Don't give into tantrums .

2. Count the cost. Know that everytime you put a boundary in place it is going to take alot of work to enforce it. The saying choose your battles wisely comes into play. Also don't make too many changes to fast.

3. Have a realistic expectations of the results.

4. Reasurrance. While still standing your ground and not giving into guilt trips. Reasure her that you love her.

5. I would suggest talking to someone without Bpd regularly. Like keep up with the posts on here. That way you don't run down. Also try to talk to people who support your decision to stay married and are not overly critical of your BPD partner. For instance when my own support doesn't support my decision to talk to my mom, it can be frustrating. Than I don't want to talk to them about my problems because I know their solution is to cut that person out of my life and they are thinking I told you so. In my opinion that is unsupportive.

I commend you for staying married to a person with BPD. I only have patience to deal with my BPD mom for very short periods of time.

[maxsterling]

A reminder - boundaries are about protecting you, not about changing them or "teaching them a lesson".

As a counselor told me recently, my wife is an uncontrolled variable, and I am a controlled variable.  I can control me and my actions and reactions.  I cannot control hers.  A boundary is enforcing an area where you do have control.   

[Corpal74]

Thank you maxsterling that is well said.

[IsItHerOrIsItMe]

I think it is better to be accused for NOT giving the information. Here is why. If you give them the information, then they will find that many more things to confirm their suspicions. Those things could be completely benign and innocent. Now, you are being accused for not sharing information quickly enough, which is compounded by whatever little breadcrumbs can be found while looking. Sharing is feeding the beast so to speak.

This struck me funny, because just this morning she shoved a washcloth in my face saying, "see this is the washcloth that was in your gym-bag"... .

This was something she mentioned a year ago... .not to JADE, but we're recently married (5 years) & I don't know where 80% of the stuff in our house came from... .but somehow packed a bag, went somewhere I could grab a washcloth and then left it in my bag (in her mind)... .all without ever being out of her sight for more than an hour... .

I just struggle having any type of conversation with someone so divorced from reality... .

[vortex of confusion]

I just struggle having any type of conversation with someone so divorced from reality... .

Stop having conversations with her. I know that sounds kind of mean or passive aggressive. I am trying to think of how to express this. In order to get a better grip on things, I had to STOP having conversations with my husband. I had to disengage a bit. I would listen to him but I would not actively participate in the conversation and share my side of things. I would listen to him and nod and try to validate when or if I could. If I couldn't validate, I didn't. It was difficult to do. It was very difficult to try to detach and NOT let stuff get to me.

The less I engaged, the more I was able to get a better grip on what was going on. And, it de-escalated a lot of the really heated stuff. There was a period of time when I was trying to get him to stop calling me and messaging me all of the time that things got a whole lot worse. For me, I had to find a way to disengage and stop getting into these conflicts. Once I was disengaged and got a grip on myself, I had to find ways to slowly re-engage in ways that I think are healthier and are more respectful to MY boundaries and values. It is a continual process of me trying to check in with myself and not be so reliant on my husband. He is who he is. It isn't likely that he is going to change.

[MaroonLiquid]

The less I engaged, the more I was able to get a better grip on what was going on. And, it de-escalated a lot of the really heated stuff. There was a period of time when I was trying to get him to stop calling me and messaging me all of the time that things got a whole lot worse. For me, I had to find a way to disengage and stop getting into these conflicts. Once I was disengaged and got a grip on myself, I had to find ways to slowly re-engage in ways that I think are healthier and are more respectful to MY boundaries and values. It is a continual process of me trying to check in with myself and not be so reliant on my husband. He is who he is. It isn't likely that he is going to change.

This is good advice.  Since I have disengaged with my wife more and have better boundaries, she acts better most of the time and things are much calmer.  She is having a hard time at the moment due to me saying, "No", but she is learning that I'm not budging anymore even if she gives me the ST or brings up the "divorce".  It isn't getting her anywhere.  I re-engage when she is obviously more "centered" emotionally and when I start to see clues of her going "south", I start to disengage again.  I don't really look to her for emotional support anymore, but still willing to give her that if she needs me to.  Like VOC said, being self-sufficient has made things better as well.  My wife thinks that men "need" her to live and men don't take care of their children.  That was true for her ex, but she is finding out it's not for me and she doesn't know how to handle that very well and I truly believe respects me for that.

[waverider]

It is important not to get drawn into conversational ping pong.

Behavioral patterns involving reactions responded to with immediate counter reaction, in turn responded to with counter reaction to the counter reaction and so on often takes you off to a different planet.

Delayed thought out responses are often a far better strategy. Fill the gaps with non committal comments to show you are actually listening to avoid invalidating, but without adding rocks to the avalanche coming at you. It is easier to stay centered, and see the bigger picture.

This is the step before disengaging, it even helps you recognize the point at which disengaging becomes advisable.

There are many steps in not loosing control through not being drawn in>disengaging> boundaries>dealbreakers

[vortex of confusion]

This is good advice.  Since I have disengaged with my wife more and have better boundaries, she acts better most of the time and things are much calmer.  She is having a hard time at the moment due to me saying, "No", but she is learning that I'm not budging anymore even if she gives me the ST or brings up the "divorce".  It isn't getting her anywhere.  I re-engage when she is obviously more "centered" emotionally and when I start to see clues of her going "south", I start to disengage again.  I don't really look to her for emotional support anymore, but still willing to give her that if she needs me to.  Like VOC said, being self-sufficient has made things better as well.  My wife thinks that men "need" her to live and men don't take care of their children.  That was true for her ex, but she is finding out it's not for me and she doesn't know how to handle that very well and I truly believe respects me for that.

One of the things that I think needs to get more attention is paying attention to when *I* am not feeling centered. There are times when my spouse isn't going south but I am. I have to focus on me and how I am feeling. I don't have to engage just because he is doing good and is emotionally centered. I think there is too much emphasis on how the other person is feeling. That is how enmeshment continues and that is how codependency is perpetuated. It is okay for me to walk away from any conversation where I feel uncomfortable for any reason.

[waverider]

One of the things that I think needs to get more attention is paying attention to when *I* am not feeling centered. There are times when my spouse isn't going south but I am. I have to focus on me and how I am feeling. I don't have to engage just because he is doing good and is emotionally centered. I think there is too much emphasis on how the other person is feeling. That is how enmeshment continues and that is how codependency is perpetuated. It is okay for me to walk away from any conversation where I feel uncomfortable for any reason.

This is an important point and easier to recognize, and admit to, once we can stay off the reactive rollercoaster.

It is easier to see if you can see a "situation" is getting toxic rather than automatically thinking "they" are getting toxic.

[Hmcbart]

I tried to do this tonight and not get caught up in the anger. I seem to do a better job when I'm deflecting the anger from my kids on to me. I was much calmer and more in control of my words and reactions. Even after the day I've had emotionally.

That being said, I'm not expecting any sleep tonight because that anger was only deflected at me and hasn't been fully released yet. I'm hoping her little throwing things and slamming of doors while the boys and I were downstairs helped her get it out of her system.

One of my boundaries is to protect my kids from hurtful rages. Not to protect them from getting in trouble when they should get in trouble for their actions, that's parenting. But when the anger crosses the line from parenting to emotional or verbal abuse that's when I put a stop to it, sometimes if I catch it in time I can stop it before it gets to that point. So far the boundary has worked.

[IsItHerOrIsItMe]

I had a horrible day Wed... .6 hours in the car (3 there... .3 home) where i let her bait me into getting upset.

Then yesterday she started again and I was able to remain calm.  We were in the car for 15 minutes so she could drop me off to pick up my car.  About half way there I told her "you're not going to bait me into getting angry so you can think you're right.  I'm not trapped in the car for 3 hours where you can badger me.  I understand you're upset (she brought up one of her favorites... .I once told her that I may, in extreme circumstances, decide not to tell her everything someone told me).  If you think that's a marriage ended betrayal that's your decision, but that's what I think."

She tried a couple more times, (half tried... .more for show) and then dropped it.

She can be very perceptive sometimes, maybe something finally clicked.

[Hmcbart]

She didn't come in and wake me up to argue last night which is good but this morning she wouldn't even say a word. I told her and s12 bye when I was leaving for work and she just stared at the TV and wouldn't acknowledge my presence. It's the silent treatment again. I texted her and just said "I love you" but haven't gotten any response. I am pretty sure she saw it because her phone never leaves her side.

The silent treatment always breaks me. I know this and I'm pretty sure she does also. I know my own codependent issues are my downfall during these times. I can't stand the silence even when the alternative may be blaming, criticism and belittling.

I've read the lessons but I'm still unclear on how to deal with it. Any ideas would be very helpful.

[vortex of confusion]

I texted her and just said "I love you" but haven't gotten any response. I am pretty sure she saw it because her phone never leaves her side. 

What do you think would happen if you didn't text her at all and left her alone in her silence?

I know it is difficult to do. I have figured out that there are times when I would rather fight and have conflict than be totally ignored. I have had to learn to deal with the silence by keeping myself busy with other things. I know it isn't easy. The first inclination is to push or try to contact or do something to get them to engage with you. Resist that urge. The more you resist that urge and ride it out the better it will get. If the silent treatment is meant as a punishment and she sees that it isn't working, then she is less apt to do it. The silent treatment is just another way to push somebody's buttons.

[Hmcbart]

I agree V, it has always worked for her. I didn't chase after last night while she was throwing a tantrum and something else upstairs. I left her alone to rage while the kids and I stayed downstairs. I had hoped she would get it out of her system last night and be a little better today.

She did reply back to my text a few minutes ago saying "love you too". I take that as a good sign. She tends to stay angry and use this tactic for long periods of time, even when I do try to talk to her or even when I used to accept the blame for what ever caused it.

Wouldn't riding it out be using the same tactic (silent treatment) as a response be wrong? I'm just doing what she is doing at that point. Should I continue my routine as normal, cook dinner and still invite her to come eat with us. If she chooses to accept great in not ok as well?

[CastleofGlass]

Wouldn't riding it out be using the same tactic (silent treatment) as a response be wrong? I'm just doing what she is doing at that point. Should I continue my routine as normal, cook dinner and still invite her to come eat with us. If she chooses to accept great in not ok as well?

Hmcbart-Everytime I read your posts, I feel as we are in the same marriage. So, do you think riding out her silent treatment is the same tactic as what she is doing? To help you think about this more... .would you say you are both going silent for the same reasons? Also, would you say you are actually reciprocating silent treatment as well? If she was to try to text you and have a conversation or ask how your day is going, would you respond? If so, I would say you aren't actually doing the same thing she is. Silent treatment is closing the door on communication. I ask you, are you open to communication? There in should be your answer.

I would continue with the normal routine. In these situations, what I have been trying to do is be open to communication but I still need to be a father and caretaker for my children. So just press out as normal, if she wants to talk to you then go for it if it's not destructive. If she says nothing, then just keep doing what needs to be done house/kid wise.

[vortex of confusion]

Wouldn't riding it out be using the same tactic (silent treatment) as a response be wrong? I'm just doing what she is doing at that point. Should I continue my routine as normal, cook dinner and still invite her to come eat with us. If she chooses to accept great in not ok as well?

I think riding it out is different than giving her the silent treatment back. If you were giving it back to her, you would ignore her and change your routines to avoid her. In my mind, riding it out is going about your life as normal. If you usually cook dinner and invite her to join you, then keep doing it. If she declines, let it go and don't say anything about it. If you normally tell her good night, then tell her goodnight. If she chooses not to respond, ignore it and let it go. Live your life as though nothing has changed. Pretend you don't even notice that she is giving you the silent treatment.

Does that make a bit more sense? You are not going silent and ignoring her. You are ignoring the fact that she is ignoring you. If you usually get home from work and say, "Hi honey, I'm home", then keep doing it.

[Hmcbart]

Thanks Castle and V-

Since our MC yesterday my brain has been so fogged up that I have trouble seeing out of it. Yes y'all's posts help clarify it for me. I just need to focus on the fact that it's not all about me and control my reactions to this. A difficult task to be sure because she knows how to get a reaction out of me.

[CastleofGlass]

Hmcbart-Keep at it my friend. All we can really do is keep putting one foot before the other and move forward.

[vortex of confusion]

A difficult task to be sure because she knows how to get a reaction out of me.

That right there is the key! When you stop reacting, you stop giving her the power!

[formflier]

He asked "when is enough enough if she won't respect your boundaries with regard to showing affection?"

Looks like different definitions or concepts of boundaries...

FF

[Hmcbart]

He asked "when is enough enough if she won't respect your boundaries with regard to showing affection?"

Looks like different definitions or concepts of boundaries...

FF

I guess it's the difference between a boundary and a request maybe. I don't think I can set a boundary that says show me affection or else. But it's really a mute point at this time. I'm not ready to have that conversation with her because I'm not willing to back up my words with action.

I don know how you would do something like this as a boundary. Either you accept that she isn't going to do it and stay or move on. No real boundary to enforce.

[Oooohm]

H

Read DiamondTide thread: How to break cycle... .

[Skip]

V- I don't have any good examples yet. It was something my T asked me yesterday about my thoughts on the lack of love and affection. He asked "when is enough enough if she won't respect your boundaries with regard to showing affection?"

Boundaries is an often misused term. Most people define it by telling what it not. That can't be right - even if they wrote a book.

Ask somebody what a boundary is "the boundary of" and if they can't answer, they don't know either.  

We define it here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=61684.msg581650#msg581650

In this definition, your therapist is really asking, how long are you going to live in a situation that is counter to your core values of wanting to loved and appreciated.  

If love is absent from your relationship, then your choices are to

• try to rekindle the romance,



• leave, or



• do without as you have a higher core value than being loved - holding the nuclear family together for the kids.

Boundaries, simply help define the values to (or with) others... .you can read about that here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=61684.msg581650#msg581650

Did you have love in the relationship before?  Why (according to your wife) has it gone away? This is probably the place to start.