Realities of staying in a BPD relationship

[maxsterling]

I was thinking yesterday that the decision to stay in a relationship with a pwBPD comes with some realities that we must accept in order to move forward.

- a relationship with a pwBPD will always be a "high conflict" relationship.  Why?  pwBPD view their entire life as conflict, with very little time living in the moment or in the present.  The pwBPD always has things he/she is upset over or resentful of.  We must accept that extended "quiet peaceful times" are unlikely, and that conflict is the norm.  If we have expectations of tranquil periods, we are likely to become disappointed and resentful.

- a relationship with a pwBPD is almost guaranteed to be abusive in some fashion.  It may be verbal, emotional, or physical.  Boundaries can help limit our exposure to the abuse, but I think some level of abuse is a certainty. 

- a relationship with a pwBPD will feel unstable, because it is unstable.  The reality here is pwBPD have a tendency for rapid changes in extreme emotion, and that feels unstable on our end.  In order to not "walk on eggshells" here, we must learn to accept that the pwBPD may have a change of mood at any time and leave us and recycle us. 

- a relationship with a pwBPD will never feel "50/50".  We will feel that we are putting way more in than what we get out, and believe it or not the pwBPD will feel that way, too.  We must learn to accept that the "healthy relationship checklist" does not apply here. 

- a relationship with a pwBPD requires us to have a strong ability for self care.  Reality is we can't depend on our partners for support, so we need to be self sufficient and have an outside support network of friends, family, and therapists.  If we have expectations of the pwBPD to be there for us, then we will likely be disappointed and become resentful.

My point is, these r/s are not easy, and we truly must be willing if we are to find happiness. 

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Daniell85]

I don't see how you can have any happiness. Except in the moment it is happening. I have been reading a lot here. What I am seeing leaves me feeling despondent.

I can see where if I had handled things differently, my boyfriend would not be giving me silent treatment. I understand. But I am here as the end result of many years of this sort of thing. He's caused immense damage to me. I don't want to retaliate, but right now I am having a very hard time coping with what he has done ( due to the damage I feel to me) and I am depressed at yet another silent treatment where I don't know where it will end.

I am very tired, on every level. In tears

[vortex of confusion]

This list leaves a very bad taste in my mouth.

I think there are a lot of generalizations that might apply to your individual situation. I don't think some of the generalizations made are true of all situations. I think the thing that I have the biggest problem with is the notion that abuse is guaranteed. I will not tolerate abuse and I will question anybody that says that one must accept some form of abuse in order to stay in a relationship. That is very dangerous and very scary thinking.

[maxsterling]

This list leaves a very bad taste in my mouth.

I think there are a lot of generalizations that might apply to your individual situation. I don't think some of the generalizations made are true of all situations. I think the thing that I have the biggest problem with is the notion that abuse is guaranteed. I will not tolerate abuse and I will question anybody that says that one must accept some form of abuse in order to stay in a relationship. That is very dangerous and very scary thinking.

I understand what you are saying.  My point is that the definition of "abuse" is broad, and one could probably claim any relationship as at least a teeny bit abusive.  My point was that in the BPD relationship, some level of abuse is extremely likely.  Emotional manipulation, passive aggressive behavior, silent treatment, financial abuse, jealousy, sarcastic remarks, etc.  I'm not saying we must accept it, but I am saying some of the above are going to happen and we must be prepared to deal with it in a healthy way. 

[sweetheart]

Hi max,

I'm going to agree with VOC. Abusive dysregulation and high conflict interactions were some of the behaviours that brought me to this forum. They are not part of my marriage anymore and if they were still persistent I would not be on Staying. I would not advise anyone on Staying that some form of abusive behaviour when in a relationship with pwBPD is inevitable or acceptable. Perhaps that is not what you mean, but it's how your list reads.

My marriage is far from perfect, but overall there is more stability and a lot of love between us.

I hear what you're saying, but I worry that your list will maybe mislead people reading it toward accepting behaviours which really aren't acceptable and also don't have to be part of a  relationship where BPD is present.

[maxsterling]

Hi max,

I'm going to agree with VOC. Abusive dysregulation and high conflict interactions were some of the behaviours that brought me to this forum. They are not part of my marriage anymore and if they were still persistent I would not be on Staying. I would not advise anyone on Staying that some form of abusive behaviour when in a relationship with pwBPD is inevitable or acceptable. Perhaps that is not what you mean, but it's how your list reads.

My marriage is far from perfect, but overall there is more stability and a lot of love between us.

I hear what you're saying, but I worry that your list will maybe mislead people reading it toward accepting behaviours which really aren't acceptable and also don't have to be part of a  relationship where BPD is present.

I see what you are saying.  Maybe I am being misunderstood - I'm not saying it has to be this way going forward, that our relationships will always be miserable, but at some point in the r/s there was probably abuse, otherwise we probably would not have found this site.  And we must be able to reconcile that past abuse, and recognize it and have boundaries going forward in order to make an informed decision about staying.  I was more thinking about "radical acceptance" and that if we have expectations for a certain kind of r/s, we probably will wind up feeling resentful and unhappy. 

I'm not saying that we can't have happy or loving relationships, I'm saying that having those with a pwBPD may take more effort than many of us are willing, and that we really can't use the same metrics to evaluate our relationships as we would if we were not with a personality disordered person.  Even in my own r/s, despite the extreme chaos of recently, there are moments where it's obvious my wife loves me and wants to be with me, even though right now she is not showing that affection in consistent ways. 

[vortex of confusion]

I see what you are saying.  Maybe I am being misunderstood - I'm not saying it has to be this way going forward, that our relationships will always be miserable, but at some point in the r/s there was probably abuse, otherwise we probably would not have found this site.  And we must be able to reconcile that past abuse, and recognize it and have boundaries going forward in order to make an informed decision about staying.

Hmmmm. . .there have been some abusive things that have happened in our relationship. Even before I recognized subtly abusive behaviors, I had a sense that something wasn't quite right. I didn't find this site because I was looking for stuff about abuse. I found this site because I was looking for materials about being in a relationship and feeling like I was crazy because there was so much stuff that didn't make sense.  

I was more thinking about "radical acceptance" and that if we have expectations for a certain kind of r/s, we probably will wind up feeling resentful and unhappy. 

I think radical acceptance has its place. Some of the things that you mentioned in your original post are not things that I am willing to radically accept. If you want to radically accept that the relationship is going to always be high conflict, that is a choice that you can make. I might question whether or not it is healthy to be okay with a relationship that is always high conflict.

I'm not saying that we can't have happy or loving relationships, I'm saying that having those with a pwBPD may take more effort than many of us are willing, and that we really can't use the same metrics to evaluate our relationships as we would if we were not with a personality disordered person.  Even in my own r/s, despite the extreme chaos of recently, there are moments where it's obvious my wife loves me and wants to be with me, even though right now she is not showing that affection in consistent ways. 

I am uncomfortable with this. The implication that I am reading in this is that it is doable if you are willing to put in the effort and work involved. I feel like I might be nitpicking a bit. The reason is that I have been with my husband for 17 years. I have spent a lot of years tying myself in knots thinking that maybe I just need to put more work and more effort into the relationship. That got me no where. Things didn't start improving until I put more work and effort into ME and started caring less about the status of the relationship.

And, I had to stop making excuses for my husband's behavior. Being disordered does not give a person a pass on bad behavior. It doesn't. And I can use the same metrics to evaluate the relationship. I think it is really important to look at the metrics involved in evaluating a "normal" relationship. No, my relationship with my husband may not be considered normal but I can look at normal as sort of a benchmark to help me keep a firm grasp on reality. It helps me maintain MY values and MY boundaries. I think it is soo very important not to lose yourself in these kinds of relationships.

[maric]

Dear Max,

please listen to your own words. Perhaps you are narrowing your vision of what is normal and what is not normal: "My point is that the definition of "abuse" is broad, and one could probably claim any relationship as at least a teeny bit abusive". You are lowing your boundaries. Abuse is different than drama and unresolved emotional issues. From the Merriam Webster:

"Abuse is defined as any action that intentionally harms or injures another person".

So NO, relationships not always involve ABUSE!

Instead of thinking about the realities of staying in a BPD rs, think about the realities of being co-dependent. This way, at least you bring the focus to you so you can heal too. Please bring this aspect to you consideration too.

Sorry for that. Wish you luck, also.  

[ColdEthyl]

@Max

I understand what you are saying, and to me it seems like the replies so far seem to think you are trying to condone something.

Let's be real, folks. Even in relationships with people WITHOUT BPD, there will be times someone 'abuses' you, albeit some sort of emotional abuse, verbal abuse, etc. We are not talking about the hours barrages that pwBPD are capable of... .but come on. Like someone in your life somewhere doesn't scream... .maybe call you a bad name. It's still under the umbrella of 'abuse'.

[Sunfl0wer]

I have been taught in therapy that there is only one way to possibly continue to have a r/s with a person who has been abusive.

Please anyone, correct me if needed.

#1. The abuser MUST claim full responsibility of the abuse without minimizing or focus on mitigating circumstances.  They MUST demonstrate understanding of their behavior and consistently express this as it is appropriate to express. (Meaning, saying it once, then acting like it is a bother to deal with later when the abused is upset, is NOT enough)

If that is not present, then you are entering a very dangerous situation, likely beginning a fresh new cycle of the same.

I wish I could phrase this more gently and tactfully... .maybe?

This list sounds like justification, minimization, and sounds scary.

[ColdEthyl]

And, I had to stop making excuses for my husband's behavior. Being disordered does not give a person a pass on bad behavior. It doesn't. And I can use the same metrics to evaluate the relationship. I think it is really important to look at the metrics involved in evaluating a "normal" relationship. No, my relationship with my husband may not be considered normal but I can look at normal as sort of a benchmark to help me keep a firm grasp on reality. It helps me maintain MY values and MY boundaries. I think it is soo very important not to lose yourself in these kinds of relationships.

I agree with VoC here. If my H wasn't actually trying... .I would be on the leaving board. Our relationship has changed a lot since the beginning, and it's been for the better. Since my communication has gotten better... .his has. If he was still cursing me, calling me names, being aggressive... .no. It would have never worked out for us. Sometimes, we try to condone our partner's bad behavior on the illness because we love them. But if they know they have a problem and refuse to do anything about it, there's not a lot for you to work with there. You will grow angry and resentful.

[Hmcbart]

Max- I can identify with a lot of this. Maybe it's different for every situation. Those who have learned to create and enforce boundaries. Those who have known about what tgeir SO suffered from for a long time. These things may not register to someone who has made it through or at least found a way to deal with it all.

For someone like myself who is at the moment extremely lost in the woods, these ideas are exactly where my thoughts are. If I can make it a year or more and keep focused on me and learning the tools I need to handle it, I may have a different perspective. But right now I can only see truth in all of it.

[Ceruleanblue]

Well, even we nons have our moments. Last night I was frustrated, and BPDh broke two of my things when we were moving things, and he blamed ME, and I called him a "dumbass". I felt awful as soon as I said it, and apologized up and down. I was triggered I think because he blamed me, and it clearly was him who broke both things. So, now I know being blamed(now that he's mostly stopped), has become a trigger for ME.

He forgave me, and he knows I feel bad. He knows that he's put me through a LOT with his BPD behaviors in the last three years, and moving away from my son(he won't "allow" my son to live with us) has been a huge stressor for me, and even my blood pressure has become dangerously high(and I'm rather young and in good shape for that).

My point is that most relationships can have slip ups that could be qualified as abusive. Doesn't meant it's okay, and I'd say this is my first in this relationship, but still, not okay. I didn't run the first time BPDh did something I thought of as abusive though, but I did let him know it was abusive. BPDh didn't do that with me last night(he clearly doesn't know what boundaries are), but he should have. It's not my norm though, and I felt awful, and I'm sure how bad I feel will assure I'm not tempted to do it again.

I'm the non, but it doesn't mean I'm perfect. Neither BPDh nor I are perfect, and there should be some grace in relationships.

[vortex of confusion]

I'm the non, but it doesn't mean I'm perfect. Neither BPDh nor I are perfect, and there should be some grace in relationships.

And that is precisely why I think it is important to look at normal relationships. In a normal relationship, both parties get to mess up. Both people have bad days. If I screw up, that is okay. I don't need to set some kind of crazy standard where I am jumping through hoops and consistently excusing crappy behavior for another person while I am being held to a standard that is almost impossible to meet.

[Over My Head]

Well I completely agree with the original poster's list.  Of course it will always be a high conflict relationship.  Wild mood swings, extreme difficulty in relationships, fights, etc.  Sure this stuff exists in all relationships but it is multiplied exponentially in BPD relationships.  Admit it or not, almost all of us are in high conflict relationships.  It doesn't scare me nor is it dangerous thinking.  It merely is what it is. 

Of course it is going to feel abusive.  Having a partner ready to fight over the slightest perceived slight is abusive.  Having someone be verbally sparring with you all the time is abusive.  Sure it happens in all relationships but it is magnafied in BPD relationships. 

Of course the relationship will feel unstable.  Being with someone whose illness presents with symptoms of either putting you on a pedestel or thinking you are the lowest of the low feels unstable.  Just look at all the symtoms of this disease.  It would make anyone feel unstable.  "I hate you don't leave me." 

The poster is right on with every point.  Maybe some of us have gone so long not being in healthy relationship where we are with someone who meets our needs like we meets theirs we don't really know what healthy looks like.  The list isn't dangerous, scary, or anthing else.  It's the reality of most folks living with a BPD partner. 

[Grey Kitty]

My take on the "reality" of a relationship being abusive is different too.

The reality may be that max's wife will start behaving in abusive ways. Or attempt abusive behavior.

However with good boundary enforcement, Max does not need to be abused at all. Certainly not physically. And even verbal abuse that gets cut off after one sentence (by an enforcement action) hardly counts.

I know it can be done. I was able to do it myself.

The other parts do sound like things to accept.

[Cmjo]

Im sorry but I do agree with Maxsterling.

We cannot deny that the pwBPD cannot control their capability to be high conflict and abusive, perhaps it will be controlled and they will be in therapy themselves and have some insight.

The definition of abuse is intentional harm, but I wonder if a pwBPD is deregulating and shouting insults, that laterr they cannot remember because they were disassociating, if they had no control was the harm intentional (mental illness is a defence to a criminal offence!)

I thought tha was what radical acceptance was about, recognising that the person cannot be fundamentally changed.

[waverider]

In my experience my pwBPD will probably always have high conflict and a degree of abusive behavior. That is part of the disorder. However that bad behavior need not be aimed at me, as I have learned to better deal with it and pwBPD will often take the easy target. I am no longer that easy target. Maybe that is why she conflicts more now with her FOO than she used to.

Someone has to be persecutor to keep the drama going. It need not be me.

[Daniell85]

How do you get out of being the persecutor when you aren't actively doing anything?

For example when they are giving ST, and you are letting them have that space?

[Oooohm]

Max,

You may be right but I think it comes down to a matter of degrees. If you were to put my wife 12 years ago (me pre-BPD aware) next to who she is today you would not recognize her as the same person.

In her 20's she was 9 for 9 on the DSM. 30's 7 for 9. It would be difficult to even diagnose her now (50's) with the condition. 12 years ago our R/S (Metaphor alert... .) was like I was "Running full bore straight thru a forest with an angry bear right on my tail"... .now it's like "I'm strolling a well blazed trail ducking the rare low hanging branch without much effort at all".

Waverider said it best.

Hmcbart:  Your wife reminds me a lot of my wife 12 years ago.  There is light at the end of the tunnel !

Max: You ARE obviously dealing with the extreme of the disorder... .but take solace in knowing it is a "Learned" behavior, condition, disorder, short circuited coping mechanisms (Not an illness, or a disease) and  because of that it can be "un-learned" with time, effort, boundaries and firm handed love.

GK, VOC, CB, CE:  I applaud you !   

[patientandclear]

I'm not sure there is evidence that boundaries and better practices can always change BPD behaviors.  The range of BPD coping mechanisms is wide.  Some behaviors may be more amenable to management with our better practices, than others.  Some pwBPD may be more able to change than others.  I wouldn't want all partners here to expect that these behaviors will change if they just hang in and use better practices.

[Daniell85]

I am sad I didn't find this site sooner. It would have saved a lot of wear and tear.

I know my boyfriend well enough that simple validation and giving space would have managed a lot of his symptoms in terms of how stable our relationship is.

But I find myself here after another big blow out. And I had a massive reaction to what he did, the first 3 days after he did it. I don't think I have been that hurt and angry for years. I really lashed out.

I saw your comment, P&C, over on another thread. The one where I admitted I told him if he did the ST again, I was done. At this point in time, he knows I am not. I followed the advice in my own thread to reach out and touch base, let him know I am here.

I guess that means I made things way worse, because as you said, now he has abandonment fears AND feels he can walk all over me whenever he wants.

Well. What do I do now? 

[joeramabeme]

Maxx, I applaud your post and the posts/replies of others.

Reading the responses what I come to is that BPD behavior can improve over time when partnered with someone that has the knowledge and understanding of the disorder and themselves and a BP partner that is willing to change.

Regarding abuse, my wife was extremely verbally abusive; belittling, sarcastic, degrading publicly and privately etc.  I/we were seeing a therapist that when brought up as a topic, gave all of it a "pass"; meaning she just chalked it up to a bad mood etc. 

In my gut I knew the behavior and the therapist was wrong and set off to find another T for a 2nd opinion who told me ASAP abuse is not ok and I need to address it, which I did (over the course of 1 year, which is how long it took for me to stand up and say stop it). 

When I asked BPw why she abused me her response was astonishing, but perhaps relevant to this conversation, "because I let her". 

Well, I stopped "letting her" but the truth is, it was just like a game of whack-a-mole, I hit one area of abuse and a new one popped up.  It never really stopped, she just found new ways to do it.  So, I am not sure that simply addressing an unwanted behavior is the answer and I do agree that by the nature of their disorder, BPs are abusive. 

Stopping the abuse takes more than 1 person changing their behavior, it takes two, which is why you will see most of my posts on the leaving board and probably why some people disagree with what you said and others agree.

[Verbena]

So what is Max supposed to do in the meantime while he waits to see if his wife will ever get better?  

**tell himself that people with BPD are just abusive and put up with it?

**decide that if she cusses him out and hits him only half as often as she has in the past few months, that qualifies as progress?

** determine that she if she seems "enough" improved in a few weeks that he can go ahead and have a child with her?  Then worry later about how he is going to protect his child from her?  

Verbal and physical abuse is not ok.  Having a child with a severely mentally ill woman who is violent toward herself and others is just irresponsible.  


Stopping the abuse takes more than 1 person changing their behavior, it takes two

This statement really bothers me because I think this is the way Max's wife, with her disordered thinking, views it.  She sees Max as being the problem.  She has not taken any responsibility for her abuse.  Everything is his fault. 

[EaglesJuju]

My realities of staying in a BPD relationship have have been altered in the last 6 months.

I tended to view my relationship with a lot of negativity. Although I was aware of maladaptive coping mechanisms and BPD behavior, I had a defeatist viewpoint that nothing was going to change. I learn that when we constantly view our relationship with pessimism and hopelessness, we essentially set ourselves up for failure. It is like we are on edge expecting chaos to happen. If we are always on edge thinking of the possibilities of chaos in the future, we are going to cause ourselves unnecessary anxiety, fear, and worry. How is anything going to improve if we already have a defeatist attitude? How are we ever going to be happy if we constantly are walking on eggshells?  

If we change our perception on how we view our relationship, things can improve. If we view our relationship with positivity we can influence our partner. PwBPD are very perceptive to feelings and emotions. My bf can pick up on when I feel negative, hopeless, and frustrated. Many times he started arguments based off of how he perceived me. Once I started changing my perspective, my bf picked up on it. Granted he was not "cured," but he did show improvements.

Although we cannot control our pwBPD's behavior and thoughts, we can control our own. That includes participating in conflict. We have the ability to change how we react in situations.  We do not have to engage ourselves in circular arguments etc. We can enforce boundaries.

Surely, there are realities of the disorder, such as maladaptive behavior and how it affects a relationship. The question I started asking myself is, "Why am I so affected by my bf's behavior?" This led me to turn the mirror towards myself and my own behaviors and thoughts. Many times I relied on my feelings. I felt frustrated and angry. Similar to what is said to pwBPD, my own feelings do not equal facts.

I thought that my relationship would never be 50/50, until I realized that my expectations for my bf were very high. Many times my own expectations were so high, a non-disordered partner could not meet them. Many caretaker types have very high expectations and standards for their pwBPD. Once I removed that type of thinking, I started to realize that my bf does validate and support me quite often and my resentment and frustration dissipated.

Once I stepped out of the victim role that I placed myself in, I was truly able to see the realities of my relationship. A large portion of that was taking responsibility for my own behavior and changing it.  I have learned that happiness comes from within me. The reality is I cannot rely on my bf to provide happiness for me. Since I have reached this point, things have exponentially improved.  

[letmeout]

This has been a very interesting topic of discussion.

"Abuse is defined as any action that intentionally harms or injures another person".

My ex could not understand that such behavior as described above was abusive. In his BPD mind, every bad thing he did or thought was justifiable.

There was no convincing him otherwise... .

[vortex of confusion]

This has been a very interesting topic of discussion.

"Abuse is defined as any action that intentionally harms or injures another person".

My ex could not understand that such behavior as described above was abusive. In his BPD mind, every bad thing he did or thought was justifiable.

There was no convincing him otherwise... .

There was a time when I tried to tell my husband that some of his behaviors were abusive. He would try to tell me that he didn't intend to do it. He didn't mean it. Blah, blah, blah. The "intentionally" part doesn't work for me because it could be argued that what he did wasn't abuse because he wasn't trying to hurt me and he wasn't doing anything that was overtly abusive.

[Loosestrife]

I was thinking yesterday that the decision to stay in a relationship with a pwBPD comes with some realities that we must accept in order to move forward.

- a relationship with a pwBPD will always be a "high conflict" relationship.  Why?  pwBPD view their entire life as conflict, with very little time living in the moment or in the present.  The pwBPD always has things he/she is upset over or resentful of.  We must accept that extended "quiet peaceful times" are unlikely, and that conflict is the norm.  If we have expectations of tranquil periods, we are likely to become disappointed and resentful.

- a relationship with a pwBPD is almost guaranteed to be abusive in some fashion.  It may be verbal, emotional, or physical.  Boundaries can help limit our exposure to the abuse, but I think some level of abuse is a certainty. 

- a relationship with a pwBPD will feel unstable, because it is unstable.  The reality here is pwBPD have a tendency for rapid changes in extreme emotion, and that feels unstable on our end.  In order to not "walk on eggshells" here, we must learn to accept that the pwBPD may have a change of mood at any time and leave us and recycle us. 

- a relationship with a pwBPD will never feel "50/50".  We will feel that we are putting way more in than what we get out, and believe it or not the pwBPD will feel that way, too.  We must learn to accept that the "healthy relationship checklist" does not apply here. 

- a relationship with a pwBPD requires us to have a strong ability for self care.  Reality is we can't depend on our partners for support, so we need to be self sufficient and have an outside support network of friends, family, and therapists.  If we have expectations of the pwBPD to be there for us, then we will likely be disappointed and become resentful.

My point is, these r/s are not easy, and we truly must be willing if we are to find happiness. 

I struggle to see how any of the above equate to happiness, sorry

[Mutt]

I think a lesson I took away from my marriage was:

"Change comes from you. Change doesn't come from someone else"

I felt like I had two choices after the end of my marriage. Either I continued on the same path and things were going to be difficult for everyone in the family.

Or change, that way everyone wins.

[waverider]

You alone cannot fix BPD

You can take yourself out of the line of fire, this reduces conflict and abuse between you. You cannot control any conflict and abuse with anyone else.

With conflict and abuse reduced you can provide more constructive support and will reduce their defensiveness.

You cannot explain or convince them of anything, their understanding needs to evolve.

These changes take a long time, and are not guaranteed.

As long as you believe it is not possible, you will feel hopelessness, your life will be avoidance and survival.

If you believe you can improve the relationship and find happiness, you can make definite choices and you can start to thrive.

It starts with self belief.

It is most likely your self belief has been gradually stripped from you, having spent a long time were anything you did made no difference. Now you have new tools you just need the confidence and patience to apply them.

You are fixing you first of all not trying to fix your pwBPD. pwBPD react to their environment, you are a major factor in their environment

[joeramabeme]

Stopping the abuse takes more than 1 person changing their behavior, it takes two

This statement really bothers me because I think this is the way Max's wife, with her disordered thinking, views it.  She sees Max as being the problem.  She has not taken any responsibility for her abuse.  Everything is his fault. 

Verbena, your point is my point exactly, it takes 2 people to correct the problem, not just one.  She needs to take responsibility and have the willingness to change.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[joeramabeme]

You are fixing you first of all not trying to fix your pwBPD. pwBPD react to their environment, you are a major factor in their environment

Waverider, although I agree with what you are saying and know you are right, I think it is misleading b/c there is an implication that this leads to a healthy relationship.

To elaborate, I tried modifying my own behavior in my marriage, and met with some success.  But there were 2 factors that made continuation untenable.

1) There is a source conflict in the BPD.  Although modifying my own personal behavior lessened some tensions around certain topics, the source of the BPD hurt was not addressed and therefore, the BP behaviors simply manifested in different ways.  Mostly it was a no-win situation. 

As long as the BP is not looking at themselves, there will be no substantive change on their part.  By definition, they don't see what is going on with them, even if they unknowingly positively react to a better environment.  This leads to my second point.

2) Where is my humanity in all this?  Isn't the point of having an intimate r/s to SHARE your life WITH someone?  What you are describing is akin to a coping technique or therapy to help yourself in what is more of a r/s laboratory than an intimate r/s. 

There is little room for a NON to have any personal issues b/c they can have unforeseen intense cascading impacts on a BP.  Everyone has issues, that is not modifiable.  Not knowing what will happen in your r/s as a result of you being human is not an intimate r/s, at least not one where you are able to share your life WITH a partner, unless you consider a child a partner.

So, even though some environmental modification may alter some BP patterns, there is a degree of humanity and associated baggage that we NONs (and non-NONs) all possess that cannot be modified lest e be inhuman.  NONs are attracted to the BP because of their issues.  And if we NONs addressed our issues we would unlikely be attracted to a BP to begin with.

Given that so many of us are here to find answers and sort out our confused thinking, I think it should be pointed out that there is a fine line between stating a truth and implying that truth has a particular meaning, such as finding happiness in a BP relationship.  Personally, I don't see how it can happen without the BP seeing themselves for who they are.

[whitebackatcha]

I thought that my relationship would never be 50/50, until I realized that my expectations for my bf were very high. Many times my own expectations were so high, a non-disordered partner could not meet them. Many caretaker types have very high expectations and standards for their pwBPD. Once I removed that type of thinking, I started to realize that my bf does validate and support me quite often and my resentment and frustration dissipated.

I keep coming back to this as well. When my gf isn't dysregulated, she has an amazing ability to be calm and supportive, to help me believe in myself, even to help me not be so controlled by MY emotions. It is not always bad. She shouldn't be defined by her negative traits more than her positive. I too have questioned my expectations. As a codependent, I think I expect too much in certain ways, and have zero boundaries in others. This is my baggage to work on, not hers.

[waverider]

Waverider, although I agree with what you are saying and know you are right, I think it is misleading b/c there is an implication that this leads to a healthy relationship.

There are no guarantees a relationship will survive, it is your way forward to getting your life in order. If that means getting a grip on it and deciding it is not what you want and you move on. Then this is still thriving rather than stuck in the default of surviving.

You will move on knowing that your have given it your best shot and there are no "waht if" regrets.

The Staying Board is not about maintaining the relationship at all costs. It is about you handling it and getting to grips with it so that you become unstuck while you are in it. getting you to a place were you can move forward together or otherwise.

Fixing yourself is a prerequisite to being able to support and bond with them. You have to learn how to share healthily, you can't do that if you feel there is no point to it. You have to overcome your own personal fear of it.

To reiterate, you will not fix BPD and it will change, but you can affect how it changes. It need not drag you down with it. Constant conflict and the subsequent projection prevents them from even taking that step to recognizing they even have a problem

[waverider]

  NONs are attracted to the BP because of their issues.  And if we NONs addressed our issues we would unlikely be attracted to a BP to begin with.

This is an important point. Even if a pwBPD goes through all the treatment and becomes symptom free both of you will be totally different people as a result of the journey and you may then be incompatible. The traits of the disorder are an attractant, as you say. We at the end of it will be less inclined to the naivety of magical thinking.

Hence focusing on the end result is misleading, as anything can happen. Focusing on how to get yourself together and move forward, ie the steps in the journey, is more productive. The end result will evolve along the way.

[babyducks]

Even if a pwBPD goes through all the treatment and becomes symptom free both of you will be totally different people as a result of the journey and you may then be incompatible. The traits of the disorder are an attractant, as you say. We at the end of it will be less inclined to the naivety of magical thinking.

Hence focusing on the end result is misleading, as anything can happen. Focusing on how to get yourself together and move forward, ie the steps in the journey, is more productive. The end result will evolve along the way.

I think everyone is at a different place, in different circumstances.   Your mileage may vary type of thing. 

My r/s is at the opposite end of the spectrum from what maxsterling described in his original post.   After many years of therapy, including two years of DBT my partner has been graduated from treatment because she no longer meets the criteria for mental illness.   

There is no abuse in our r/s, emotional or verbal.   There is no conflict.  Our norm is quiet concord.   Certainly no physical abuse.   I don't feel any sense that the relationship is unstable.   In the past 6 months my partner has dsyregulated four times and the last three she handled by herself.   She came to me and used the phrase that she identified that means she is overwhelmed with emotions, told me what she wanted to do about it, then went and did those things.   Once emotional equilibrium was returned we communicated, negotiated and reached an agreement.

For me it feels a little odd to not have a barrage of mental health workers in our lives.   I think perhaps I got used to leaning on that crutch.  I have actually been reluctant to mention her graduation from treatment because I am not yet comfortable trusting this success.   Trust issues on my part.

My partner is not 100% symptom free right now, but very nearly so.   Some of the skills she has learned have not yet grown to reach their full maturity.   In some ways because she has invested so much effort into her mental health she is now the ~healthier~ one in the r/s.   Either way she is my equal in the r/s and the r/s is very much 50/50.

I think max did a good job describing his reality but didn't speak for my reality.

[waverider]

Sounds like you are in a good place babyducks, from here I guess it is about consolidating and rebuilding that level of trust that it is not going to slide back again.

Do you feel like you are both different people than even before BPD started its toxic influence.?

It does show how a long time spent living with dysfunction starts to feel normal, and "normal" somehow feels unreal as though it is an illusion.

[babyducks]

Sounds like you are in a good place babyducks, from here I guess it is about consolidating and rebuilding that level of trust that it is not going to slide back again.

Do you feel like you are both different people than even before BPD started its toxic influence.?

It does show how a long time spent living with dysfunction starts to feel normal, and "normal" somehow feels unreal as though it is an illusion.

tough one to answer waverider because I am not sure I know.

I feel like I am more me.   I am much stronger about expressing my thoughts, opinions, feelings, wants, needs and in a more detailed and in a softer gentler way.

It's harder to say with my partner, she has changed so much and in a relatively short period of time that its hard for me to discount the little voice in the back of my head that says, "what if this is mirroring?"

On the other hand she seems very concrete and sure of herself.   It very much appears that her behavior is being driven by good healthy individual decisions.   something I am certainly willing to get used to but haven't had much practice at.   yet.

[waverider]

I guess a lot will depend on how natural she feels about it or is just trying hard and enthusiasm is keeping her going. It takes a while to rebuild a healthy history if all you have know is unhealthy.

A personality change needs a foundation of healthy history to become entrenched. You will need to be patient and provide the support she needs to achieve this and be aware there could be fragility beneath the can do exterior for some time yet

[GopherAgent]

Max... .

I haven't posted here in a while but after reading your post, it was "reality" time again. You make some good points about the limitations these relationships bring us and the disappointments of unfulfilled desires and needs we are left with because of this madness.

The reality is that I have to rely on myself for my strength and health and look to the outside of this relationship for encouragement and support. Since she can't, or won't, provide some of the emotional support I need... .the very support she demands from me, then I must work on that myself for myself because my needs are just not important to her at all. And, yes... .What a disappointment it is.

And yes, this relationship is never 50/50 in that I get all of the blame for the failings of it all and just how hurt she is because of all the things I have deliberately done to her from day one of our marriage. I guess that makes me 91% wrong most of the time according to her... .the other 9% of the time is still being saved up and will be doled out by her later at some convenient point in time to make me feel even more like a loser and reprobate than I already feel.

Overall, your post is a summary of experiences that help bring a slice of reality to life as it is along with the limitations that occur when living with the madness and insanity this illness brings to us.

After 35 years of living this madness, I realize that there will always be a little girl stuck inside an adult's body who still needs, and demands that her romantic Knight in Shining Armor protect her from the evils and trepidations of this world and that she continues to expect to be wined and dined daily with flashy shows of sacrifice and heroic effort from me and demands unconditional acceptance and love (and worship) from me despite the other responsibility I must meet outside of this relationship.

Yes, Max... .Talk about disappointment and discouragement. Yes... .Max... .Reality SUCKS. Thank God for my kids and a good song from Coldplay or the Wailin' Jennys, etc. I still can put my ear phones in and play a good song when I need to and get lost in the melody again and again!

Thanks... .GopherAgent

[Surg_Bear]

Waverider, although I agree with what you are saying and know you are right, I think it is misleading b/c there is an implication that this leads to a healthy relationship.

There are no guarantees a relationship will survive, it is your way forward to getting your life in order. If that means getting a grip on it and deciding it is not what you want and you move on. Then this is still thriving rather than stuck in the default of surviving.

You will move on knowing that your have given it your best shot and there are no "what if" regrets.

The Staying Board is not about maintaining the relationship at all costs. It is about you handling it and getting to grips with it so that you become unstuck while you are in it. getting you to a place were you can move forward together or otherwise.

Fixing yourself is a prerequisite to being able to support and bond with them. You have to learn how to share healthily, you can't do that if you feel there is no point to it. You have to overcome your own personal fear of it.

To reiterate, you will not fix BPD and it will change, but you can affect how it changes. It need not drag you down with it. Constant conflict and the subsequent projection prevents them from even taking that step to recognizing they even have a problem

Last night, with my Psychiatrist, we covered these issues in depth.  I cannot change what I do not have control over.  The latest rage / dysregulation (2 days ago) was, by far, one of the worst.  I deserve better than this.  I have grown enough in my Self, and in my therapy to genuinely feel, "I deserve better than this !"

What will I do to achieve "better than this" in my life?

"Staying" is way down there on the list of possibilities for "better than this."

I love myself too much to allow my compassion and care to "settle" for dodging abuse and dysregulation.  I don't have much time off from my work. I need to maximize value and minimize effort in achieving my goals and maintaining my values in life.

It is not a self deluding trick, or co-dependent pathology to want to be loved, adored, and respected because I deserve it.  I've earned this.  I believe it is within what I bring to the table to expect that my partner want to be present with me sexually.  It is not a sign of weakness or pathological co-dependence to value and want a loving relationship that is honest, open and caring. 

Accepting that this is not possible with my wife - or will not be possible for another 25 years of her intense psychotherapy, I am facing the stark reality that being alone is infinitely better than being with her.  At least alone I am not compromising my values and hopes for my life- I will be living in a home where everyone there accepts me for who I am- size 44 waist, back hair and all, AND alone is where everyone wants to have sex precisely when I want to have sex. 

Alone is far better than constant criticism, emotional abuse, sexual withholding / neglect, and silent treatment. I firmly believe that my wife and I have arrived at "as good as it gets."

For me, at least, working to get out of this relationship is the first step in staying with my truest self.  Working out a plan to make this happen, while providing support and respect for my family and my wife in the disengaging and building separate lives, these are the next steps I need to work out.

Surg_Bear

[Surg_Bear]

Hmcbart:  Your wife reminds me a lot of my wife 12 years ago.  There is light at the end of the tunnel !

Max: You ARE obviously dealing with the extreme of the disorder... .but take solace in knowing it is a "Learned" behavior, condition, disorder, short circuited coping mechanisms (Not an illness, or a disease) and  because of that it can be "un-learned" with time, effort, boundaries and firm handed love.

GK, VOC, CB, CE:  I applaud you !   

There is absolutely NO evidence that BPD is a "learned" behavior.  It is a core trauma induced illness.  It is like having a leg amputated at three years of age.  The stump will grow, prosthesis can be fit, but no amount of treatment can EVER restore the amputated leg. The amputee might end up being a world class athlete, but the leg will always be missing.

I do not believe that it is helpful to encourage people to just do everything possible to help their partners "unlearn" their BPD.  That unlearning is impossible.

The highest functioning pwBPD are still splitters, for example.  What makes them highly functioning is that instead of reacting and instantly / reflexively acting out on the splitting, they recognize the splitting as a disordered thought, and STOP. They self soothe, instead of reacting with self-preserving emotions, and WAY before the splitting becomes an abusive action in real life, to an abuse receiver (closest non in the room). 

That is the best hope for cure from this terrible disease.  I very much take exception to BPD just being a collection of maladaptive, "learned" behaviors. 

Surg_Bear

[waverider]

It is a core disorder that can either be inflamed or subdued by overlaying influences.

"Normal" thought processing is an alien language, it can be learned, but the original language is rarely forgotten and the new learned language has a lingering accent to it.

As a result for a successful relationship total elimination of disordered traits should not be counted on, nor is it necessary.

Only those concerned can determine what is a worthwhile equilibrium.

Understanding the equation without delusion is a prerequisite to achieving this state is essential.

Understanding alone is not enough without a genuine sense of contentment and acceptance.

Delusions and magical thinking are your enemy.

[SweetCharlotte]

"Staying" is way down there on the list of possibilities for "better than this."

I love myself too much to allow my compassion and care to "settle" for dodging abuse and dysregulation.  I don't have much time off from my work. I need to maximize value and minimize effort in achieving my goals and maintaining my values in life.

It is not a self deluding trick, or co-dependent pathology to want to be loved, adored, and respected because I deserve it.  I've earned this.  I believe it is within what I bring to the table to expect that my partner want to be present with me sexually.  It is not a sign of weakness or pathological co-dependence to value and want a loving relationship that is honest, open and caring. 

Accepting that this is not possible with my wife - or will not be possible for another 25 years of her intense psychotherapy, I am facing the stark reality that being alone is infinitely better than being with her.  At least alone I am not compromising my values and hopes for my life- I will be living in a home where everyone there accepts me for who I am- size 44 waist, back hair and all, AND alone is where everyone wants to have sex precisely when I want to have sex. 

Alone is far better than constant criticism, emotional abuse, sexual withholding / neglect, and silent treatment. I firmly believe that my wife and I have arrived at "as good as it gets."

For me, at least, working to get out of this relationship is the first step in staying with my truest self.  Working out a plan to make this happen, while providing support and respect for my family and my wife in the disengaging and building separate lives, these are the next steps I need to work out.

Surg_Bear

So you should switch to the Leaving (or at least Undecided) Board now that you have made this decision. Best wishes to you.

[maxsterling]

Surg - I applaud you for reaching that stage of self-awareness and decision.  I haven't gotten to that place yet.

My original thoughts on this subject haven't changed - as what I originally posted is how I still feel.  I stand by what I say, that at some point in a relationship with a pwBPD, there is going to be some kind of abuse.  Yes, there are things we can do to minimize it, and work and move through it with our partners, but the reality is we all wound up at this website because our relationships we unhealthy and hurtful in some way.   The first posts of any newbie almost read the same way - they come here exhausted because of too many arguments, silent treatment, yelling,  isolation from friends and family... .

yes, many of us have learned to take care of ourselves, use the lessons to improve our relationships, and many of us have seen our partners improve. But I think part of that process requires us to re-examine what an ideal relationship is and learn to accept things for what they are.

[waverider]

Following awareness of the reality, which takes a while, comes choice time. that is what max is going through at the moment. To choose to accept a degree of dysfunctionality in the full knowledge of just how much influence, or not, he can have. Or to realize not to, as surg has stated.

Both options are reasonable. The important thing is to reach a position of educated choice and make a commitment, otherwise you get stuck in that soul destroying state of undecided for far too long, which in effect stalls your life.

I have reached that place of lack of toxicity in the relationship, but still bucket loads of dysfunctionality that I may find frustrating, but I can live with. I have also identified bonuses for me from this RS that I wouldn't otherwise have. I have made this educated choice and commitment to stay to the point that I am getting married on Sunday. I am in this to the end and there is no delusions or magical thinking

[SweetCharlotte]

I have made this educated choice and commitment to stay to the point that I am getting married on Sunday. I am in this to the end and there is no delusions or magical thinking

Congratulations and best wishes, waverider! I'm glad you find that the r/s, despite its flaws, meets your needs for love and companionship. I certainly feel that way about mine.

[CastleofGlass]

max-After reading this whole post I feel as though your original post may not have been for intended for everyone dealing with a pwBPD. To be clear, I agree with your post 100% because that is how I feel right now and have felt since finding out my wife has BPD. But what I really think, is that your post was more of a self awareness statement on your behalf. As if you were saying it out loud so you could process what you really signed up for. Not all those who have a pwBPD have all the situations you have said in your list. There is a spectrum in BPD (ie: lower/higher functioning).

The sad reality I am feeling at this time is that I read some posts and stories made by other nons and it makes me more and more angry. To be blunt, I feel like all we do is kiss a BPDs ass to keep the peace. But it's not said in as many words and made to sound like we are 'changing' our selves and validating their emotions. How about my emotions? How about validating that I deal with BS? Then we set the boundaries. "Well sweetheart, I can see you are angry that the sky is blue and it's my fault but I'm going to take a time out and we can reengage when things have calmed down."

This is just so frustrating. I love my wife, but tbh, many times I feel that if my kids weren't here, then peace out. Good luck with your childish temper tantrums and insulting abusive behavior. I keep reading these lessons, and many have helped. But I still see a hidden title behind all of the lessons that says "How to let your BPD get away with being a monster and minimizing how it impacts you." I mean... .being in a marriage and saying I'm only going to concentrate on me? Not sleeping in the same room for months at a time? These aren't marriages... .They are roommate situations.

These are my thoughts and views on living with a pwBPD and BPD as a disorder in general. They are meant to be my self reflection statements as to how I feel about the whole situation. I believe as a non, I should be able to have my outburst on the ridiculousness of dealing with this sh*t once in a while.

[sweetheart]

For me the original post by max I felt was misleading because it read to me as a generalisation about all relationships with a pwBPD.

What would have made the post somewhat less ambiguous to me would be if indeed it was linked directly to maxs  own processes with his wife. That's not how I read it, and that's about me not max.

To move through our own process it is indeed about deciding to Stay and tolerate areas that maybe deal breakers for others.

If abuse of any kind was still in my marriage I would not stay, primarily because this is not something that me or our s7 should hear or be exposed to, no child should be exposed to ongoing conflict of any sort. I do not accept this as a part of my marriage to a pwBPD, I accept it as part of the illness, but it is not something I could have lived with if it remained after what I learnt here.

Surg_bear and max for me represent points of the same journey,. Staying is on a continuum for me of trying to find what is liveable with that does not negate who I am or the values that are important to me. Staying for me is not staying at any cost, especially where our son is concerned.

[Daniell85]

The anger thing resonates with me. My boyfriend has done a lot of terrible things and i feel the hurt of that. Frustrated because he wont stop. Trying to communicate this gets it all projected back at me as the real problem. He told a mutual friend, while this silent treatment is going on currently, that he has no idea why i am so angry with him, and he doesn't know what to do, so he is keeping me blocked on facebook and ignoring me every where else.

He doesn't know? Hello, you cheated, still take ow out to lunch at work, lie to me, bully me, and tell me to get over it. Among 500 other things.

I realize i get angry because i am not coping. I try to stay present to him instead of excusing myself for a break. I also have foo issues that he punches my button on with the silent treatment.

I am trying to figure it all out. He knows i am here if he wants to talk. He doesn't. I say nothing, and I am starting therapy next week. I would like to figure all of this out.

[waverider]

I believe as a non, I should be able to have my outburst on the ridiculousness of dealing with this sh*t once in a while.

You are human you are allowed to have any human feeling. You are allowed to take your carers hat off and let it blow out once in a while. That is choice. There is no complete smooth sailing. Educated choice means that you can do this but you will do it with full knowledged it is likely to trigger your partner.  With familiarity with the tools you will be less afraid of those consequences as you will be better equipped to deal with that fall out.

At the end of the day it is a choice. To just complain about the unfairness of the Disorder will not get you anywhere. Being aware of causes and likely effect is empowering in your choices.

It is not about pandering it is about balancing best results of your actions against effort, physically and mentally, and arriving at a balance that you can best deal with.

Any heightened conflict in my relationship now is nearly always because I have escalated and decided to let my frustrations out. My pwBPD is rarely responsible for any anger any more, that is my choice. It is my choice to exert my right to vent my emotions, but I am aware of it and can reign it in and smooth things out pretty quick so no real harm is done. I will not deny my right to my emotions in an attempt to endlessly appease anyone else. That just breeds the resentment you are feeling.

pwBPD are not as fragile as some people believe. Yes they blow up quickly, but often they come back down far quicker than the non. The non often is actually more upset about how long they themselves are affected rather than the immediate reaction of the pwBPD.  eg the pwBPD may have a hissy fi, say some mean things and slam a few doors but the non then broods on it for a few days and ruins their own weekend. Acceptance puts the drama and it's consequences back on the pwBPD, or yourself if it was in fact your doing.

Playing the blame game cements your role as victim, and thats no place to thrive.

[MaroonLiquid]

Following awareness of the reality, which takes a while, comes choice time. that is what max is going through at the moment. To choose to accept a degree of dysfunctionality in the full knowledge of just how much influence, or not, he can have. Or to realize not to, as surg has stated.

Both options are reasonable. The important thing is to reach a position of educated choice and make a commitment, otherwise you get stuck in that soul destroying state of undecided for far too long, which in effect stalls your life.

I have reached that place of lack of toxicity in the relationship, but still bucket loads of dysfunctionality that I may find frustrating, but I can live with. I have also identified bonuses for me from this RS that I wouldn't otherwise have. I have made this educated choice and commitment to stay to the point that I am getting married on Sunday. I am in this to the end and there is no delusions or magical thinking

Congrats Waverider!

For me personally, I have gone through every emotion possible this past year.  In 6 days it will be a year that my wife had her MAJOR dysregulation and kicked me out.  The stages of denial, anger, depression, bargaining and acceptance are all correct for the most part and we tend to fluctuate or carry two at the same time sometimes.

I started off in the denial stage when everything went down.  I blamed myself for everything, apologized for things that weren't my fault and began bargaining to "keep the peace".  I realize up until recently, I had been bargaining and allowing myself to be used thinking my wife would come around and see what a "good man" I was.  It only made things worse because it created extinction bursts in her.  Wow, how sad am I?  

Up until recently, I still bargained and continued the cycle without even realizing it at times.  Now that I'm not and holding my ground, my wife doesn't like it one bit.  She isn't used to it and used to me being conditioned to giving in to her.  She is a witch when she doesn't get her way.  

The first 6-8 months, I was in denial about how unhelathy my wife really was/is.  I would wish for "old times" all the while denying the truth of how bad it was to myself.  When I would begin to deal with the truth, I would get angry and make things worse.  I got angry because I wanted to fix it even though I know I can't.  That is God's to handle.  Because of my co-dependency issues, I wanted to fix it, therefore still part of the fight and wanted to be heard and loved.  

When I wasn't, I would go through depression and wonder what was wrong with me.  I would get over that pretty quick and when she would realize I wasn't playing her game, she would begin to want to be around me again.  I would then be excited when being "painted white", and then start bargaining again.  I would get angry about the cycle, but never express it.  For the most part, everything would be "normal" and then when she didn't get her way about something, she would dysregulate and victimize me.  I never set proper boundaries when I would be victimized so that it didn't happen agioan.  I cycled throught that for months.  Yes, I was working on myself, but took 6-8 months to "radically accept" my wife for who she was/is.  I accept the fact that she is mentally unhealthy and needs professional help.  I accept the fact that she want's to fight, but I won't.  Her misery loves company and she needs to see strength in me because she doesn't have much.  I just recently got to the point where she can get mad, rant, rave, threaten/continue with the divorce all she wants, but she needs to know I respect myself much more now, love our kids, respect them enough not to continue the cycle, and refuse to be used.  I want all 6 of our kids to know that I am doing what's right by all of us.  She's not speaking to me now because she didn't take care of what she needed to.  We haven't spoken outside of softball last weekend for almost two weeks.  When we have these kind of LC breaks like we are now, I get stronger and realize I'm lovingly detaching more and more. 

[Cat Familiar]

To be blunt, I feel like all we do is kiss a BPDs ass to keep the peace. But it's not said in as many words and made to sound like we are 'changing' our selves and validating their emotions. How about my emotions? How about validating that I deal with BS?

I totally hear you, Castle and until recently I felt exactly as you do. I started learning the Tools with hopes that I could change him and then I became frustrated when it became evident that he thrives upon creating conflict where there needn't be any. From that point, I just grew a bit more detached and thought "fu@k it--I'm done worrying about his emotions; I'm just gonna take care of me."

His most recent dysregulation, where he told me that "It's over" and he's going to move out left me thinking that wouldn't be such a bad thing after all. Sure I would be somewhat lonely without him and it would be more difficult financially, but ultimately things would work out. I told him that is his decision, but it's certainly not what I want.

A few days later, things have calmed down. He's depressed, but I get an email telling me that he loves me.

At this point, I'm so jaded to the black/white painting, I just think "OK, whatever." It's certainly not my idea of what a marriage should be, but I do like him when he's in a good mood. I don't know if I'll ever feel that passionate love I felt at the beginning, but really, who does after a number of years?

Like Waverider points out, there can be some valuable parts to a relationship in spite of the frustrating issues and like him, I'm in it for the long haul. Congratulations Waverider!

[Turkish]

This thread has reached its posting limit. It's a worthwhile conversation. Please feel free to start a new thread to continue three discussion.