Realities of staying in a BPD relationship

[maxsterling]

I was thinking yesterday that the decision to stay in a relationship with a pwBPD comes with some realities that we must accept in order to move forward.

- a relationship with a pwBPD will always be a "high conflict" relationship.  Why?  pwBPD view their entire life as conflict, with very little time living in the moment or in the present.  The pwBPD always has things he/she is upset over or resentful of.  We must accept that extended "quiet peaceful times" are unlikely, and that conflict is the norm.  If we have expectations of tranquil periods, we are likely to become disappointed and resentful.

- a relationship with a pwBPD is almost guaranteed to be abusive in some fashion.  It may be verbal, emotional, or physical.  Boundaries can help limit our exposure to the abuse, but I think some level of abuse is a certainty. 

- a relationship with a pwBPD will feel unstable, because it is unstable.  The reality here is pwBPD have a tendency for rapid changes in extreme emotion, and that feels unstable on our end.  In order to not "walk on eggshells" here, we must learn to accept that the pwBPD may have a change of mood at any time and leave us and recycle us. 

- a relationship with a pwBPD will never feel "50/50".  We will feel that we are putting way more in than what we get out, and believe it or not the pwBPD will feel that way, too.  We must learn to accept that the "healthy relationship checklist" does not apply here. 

- a relationship with a pwBPD requires us to have a strong ability for self care.  Reality is we can't depend on our partners for support, so we need to be self sufficient and have an outside support network of friends, family, and therapists.  If we have expectations of the pwBPD to be there for us, then we will likely be disappointed and become resentful.

My point is, these r/s are not easy, and we truly must be willing if we are to find happiness. 

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Daniell85]

I don't see how you can have any happiness. Except in the moment it is happening. I have been reading a lot here. What I am seeing leaves me feeling despondent.

I can see where if I had handled things differently, my boyfriend would not be giving me silent treatment. I understand. But I am here as the end result of many years of this sort of thing. He's caused immense damage to me. I don't want to retaliate, but right now I am having a very hard time coping with what he has done ( due to the damage I feel to me) and I am depressed at yet another silent treatment where I don't know where it will end.

I am very tired, on every level. In tears

[vortex of confusion]

This list leaves a very bad taste in my mouth.

I think there are a lot of generalizations that might apply to your individual situation. I don't think some of the generalizations made are true of all situations. I think the thing that I have the biggest problem with is the notion that abuse is guaranteed. I will not tolerate abuse and I will question anybody that says that one must accept some form of abuse in order to stay in a relationship. That is very dangerous and very scary thinking.

[maxsterling]

This list leaves a very bad taste in my mouth.

I think there are a lot of generalizations that might apply to your individual situation. I don't think some of the generalizations made are true of all situations. I think the thing that I have the biggest problem with is the notion that abuse is guaranteed. I will not tolerate abuse and I will question anybody that says that one must accept some form of abuse in order to stay in a relationship. That is very dangerous and very scary thinking.

I understand what you are saying.  My point is that the definition of "abuse" is broad, and one could probably claim any relationship as at least a teeny bit abusive.  My point was that in the BPD relationship, some level of abuse is extremely likely.  Emotional manipulation, passive aggressive behavior, silent treatment, financial abuse, jealousy, sarcastic remarks, etc.  I'm not saying we must accept it, but I am saying some of the above are going to happen and we must be prepared to deal with it in a healthy way. 

[sweetheart]

Hi max,

I'm going to agree with VOC. Abusive dysregulation and high conflict interactions were some of the behaviours that brought me to this forum. They are not part of my marriage anymore and if they were still persistent I would not be on Staying. I would not advise anyone on Staying that some form of abusive behaviour when in a relationship with pwBPD is inevitable or acceptable. Perhaps that is not what you mean, but it's how your list reads.

My marriage is far from perfect, but overall there is more stability and a lot of love between us.

I hear what you're saying, but I worry that your list will maybe mislead people reading it toward accepting behaviours which really aren't acceptable and also don't have to be part of a  relationship where BPD is present.

[maxsterling]

Hi max,

I'm going to agree with VOC. Abusive dysregulation and high conflict interactions were some of the behaviours that brought me to this forum. They are not part of my marriage anymore and if they were still persistent I would not be on Staying. I would not advise anyone on Staying that some form of abusive behaviour when in a relationship with pwBPD is inevitable or acceptable. Perhaps that is not what you mean, but it's how your list reads.

My marriage is far from perfect, but overall there is more stability and a lot of love between us.

I hear what you're saying, but I worry that your list will maybe mislead people reading it toward accepting behaviours which really aren't acceptable and also don't have to be part of a  relationship where BPD is present.

I see what you are saying.  Maybe I am being misunderstood - I'm not saying it has to be this way going forward, that our relationships will always be miserable, but at some point in the r/s there was probably abuse, otherwise we probably would not have found this site.  And we must be able to reconcile that past abuse, and recognize it and have boundaries going forward in order to make an informed decision about staying.  I was more thinking about "radical acceptance" and that if we have expectations for a certain kind of r/s, we probably will wind up feeling resentful and unhappy. 

I'm not saying that we can't have happy or loving relationships, I'm saying that having those with a pwBPD may take more effort than many of us are willing, and that we really can't use the same metrics to evaluate our relationships as we would if we were not with a personality disordered person.  Even in my own r/s, despite the extreme chaos of recently, there are moments where it's obvious my wife loves me and wants to be with me, even though right now she is not showing that affection in consistent ways. 

[vortex of confusion]

I see what you are saying.  Maybe I am being misunderstood - I'm not saying it has to be this way going forward, that our relationships will always be miserable, but at some point in the r/s there was probably abuse, otherwise we probably would not have found this site.  And we must be able to reconcile that past abuse, and recognize it and have boundaries going forward in order to make an informed decision about staying.

Hmmmm. . .there have been some abusive things that have happened in our relationship. Even before I recognized subtly abusive behaviors, I had a sense that something wasn't quite right. I didn't find this site because I was looking for stuff about abuse. I found this site because I was looking for materials about being in a relationship and feeling like I was crazy because there was so much stuff that didn't make sense.  

I was more thinking about "radical acceptance" and that if we have expectations for a certain kind of r/s, we probably will wind up feeling resentful and unhappy. 

I think radical acceptance has its place. Some of the things that you mentioned in your original post are not things that I am willing to radically accept. If you want to radically accept that the relationship is going to always be high conflict, that is a choice that you can make. I might question whether or not it is healthy to be okay with a relationship that is always high conflict.

I'm not saying that we can't have happy or loving relationships, I'm saying that having those with a pwBPD may take more effort than many of us are willing, and that we really can't use the same metrics to evaluate our relationships as we would if we were not with a personality disordered person.  Even in my own r/s, despite the extreme chaos of recently, there are moments where it's obvious my wife loves me and wants to be with me, even though right now she is not showing that affection in consistent ways. 

I am uncomfortable with this. The implication that I am reading in this is that it is doable if you are willing to put in the effort and work involved. I feel like I might be nitpicking a bit. The reason is that I have been with my husband for 17 years. I have spent a lot of years tying myself in knots thinking that maybe I just need to put more work and more effort into the relationship. That got me no where. Things didn't start improving until I put more work and effort into ME and started caring less about the status of the relationship.

And, I had to stop making excuses for my husband's behavior. Being disordered does not give a person a pass on bad behavior. It doesn't. And I can use the same metrics to evaluate the relationship. I think it is really important to look at the metrics involved in evaluating a "normal" relationship. No, my relationship with my husband may not be considered normal but I can look at normal as sort of a benchmark to help me keep a firm grasp on reality. It helps me maintain MY values and MY boundaries. I think it is soo very important not to lose yourself in these kinds of relationships.

[maric]

Dear Max,

please listen to your own words. Perhaps you are narrowing your vision of what is normal and what is not normal: "My point is that the definition of "abuse" is broad, and one could probably claim any relationship as at least a teeny bit abusive". You are lowing your boundaries. Abuse is different than drama and unresolved emotional issues. From the Merriam Webster:

"Abuse is defined as any action that intentionally harms or injures another person".

So NO, relationships not always involve ABUSE!

Instead of thinking about the realities of staying in a BPD rs, think about the realities of being co-dependent. This way, at least you bring the focus to you so you can heal too. Please bring this aspect to you consideration too.

Sorry for that. Wish you luck, also.  

[ColdEthyl]

@Max

I understand what you are saying, and to me it seems like the replies so far seem to think you are trying to condone something.

Let's be real, folks. Even in relationships with people WITHOUT BPD, there will be times someone 'abuses' you, albeit some sort of emotional abuse, verbal abuse, etc. We are not talking about the hours barrages that pwBPD are capable of... .but come on. Like someone in your life somewhere doesn't scream... .maybe call you a bad name. It's still under the umbrella of 'abuse'.

[Sunfl0wer]

I have been taught in therapy that there is only one way to possibly continue to have a r/s with a person who has been abusive.

Please anyone, correct me if needed.

#1. The abuser MUST claim full responsibility of the abuse without minimizing or focus on mitigating circumstances.  They MUST demonstrate understanding of their behavior and consistently express this as it is appropriate to express. (Meaning, saying it once, then acting like it is a bother to deal with later when the abused is upset, is NOT enough)

If that is not present, then you are entering a very dangerous situation, likely beginning a fresh new cycle of the same.

I wish I could phrase this more gently and tactfully... .maybe?

This list sounds like justification, minimization, and sounds scary.

[ColdEthyl]

And, I had to stop making excuses for my husband's behavior. Being disordered does not give a person a pass on bad behavior. It doesn't. And I can use the same metrics to evaluate the relationship. I think it is really important to look at the metrics involved in evaluating a "normal" relationship. No, my relationship with my husband may not be considered normal but I can look at normal as sort of a benchmark to help me keep a firm grasp on reality. It helps me maintain MY values and MY boundaries. I think it is soo very important not to lose yourself in these kinds of relationships.

I agree with VoC here. If my H wasn't actually trying... .I would be on the leaving board. Our relationship has changed a lot since the beginning, and it's been for the better. Since my communication has gotten better... .his has. If he was still cursing me, calling me names, being aggressive... .no. It would have never worked out for us. Sometimes, we try to condone our partner's bad behavior on the illness because we love them. But if they know they have a problem and refuse to do anything about it, there's not a lot for you to work with there. You will grow angry and resentful.

[Hmcbart]

Max- I can identify with a lot of this. Maybe it's different for every situation. Those who have learned to create and enforce boundaries. Those who have known about what tgeir SO suffered from for a long time. These things may not register to someone who has made it through or at least found a way to deal with it all.

For someone like myself who is at the moment extremely lost in the woods, these ideas are exactly where my thoughts are. If I can make it a year or more and keep focused on me and learning the tools I need to handle it, I may have a different perspective. But right now I can only see truth in all of it.

[Ceruleanblue]

Well, even we nons have our moments. Last night I was frustrated, and BPDh broke two of my things when we were moving things, and he blamed ME, and I called him a "dumbass". I felt awful as soon as I said it, and apologized up and down. I was triggered I think because he blamed me, and it clearly was him who broke both things. So, now I know being blamed(now that he's mostly stopped), has become a trigger for ME.

He forgave me, and he knows I feel bad. He knows that he's put me through a LOT with his BPD behaviors in the last three years, and moving away from my son(he won't "allow" my son to live with us) has been a huge stressor for me, and even my blood pressure has become dangerously high(and I'm rather young and in good shape for that).

My point is that most relationships can have slip ups that could be qualified as abusive. Doesn't meant it's okay, and I'd say this is my first in this relationship, but still, not okay. I didn't run the first time BPDh did something I thought of as abusive though, but I did let him know it was abusive. BPDh didn't do that with me last night(he clearly doesn't know what boundaries are), but he should have. It's not my norm though, and I felt awful, and I'm sure how bad I feel will assure I'm not tempted to do it again.

I'm the non, but it doesn't mean I'm perfect. Neither BPDh nor I are perfect, and there should be some grace in relationships.

[vortex of confusion]

I'm the non, but it doesn't mean I'm perfect. Neither BPDh nor I are perfect, and there should be some grace in relationships.

And that is precisely why I think it is important to look at normal relationships. In a normal relationship, both parties get to mess up. Both people have bad days. If I screw up, that is okay. I don't need to set some kind of crazy standard where I am jumping through hoops and consistently excusing crappy behavior for another person while I am being held to a standard that is almost impossible to meet.

[Over My Head]

Well I completely agree with the original poster's list.  Of course it will always be a high conflict relationship.  Wild mood swings, extreme difficulty in relationships, fights, etc.  Sure this stuff exists in all relationships but it is multiplied exponentially in BPD relationships.  Admit it or not, almost all of us are in high conflict relationships.  It doesn't scare me nor is it dangerous thinking.  It merely is what it is. 

Of course it is going to feel abusive.  Having a partner ready to fight over the slightest perceived slight is abusive.  Having someone be verbally sparring with you all the time is abusive.  Sure it happens in all relationships but it is magnafied in BPD relationships. 

Of course the relationship will feel unstable.  Being with someone whose illness presents with symptoms of either putting you on a pedestel or thinking you are the lowest of the low feels unstable.  Just look at all the symtoms of this disease.  It would make anyone feel unstable.  "I hate you don't leave me." 

The poster is right on with every point.  Maybe some of us have gone so long not being in healthy relationship where we are with someone who meets our needs like we meets theirs we don't really know what healthy looks like.  The list isn't dangerous, scary, or anthing else.  It's the reality of most folks living with a BPD partner. 

[Grey Kitty]

My take on the "reality" of a relationship being abusive is different too.

The reality may be that max's wife will start behaving in abusive ways. Or attempt abusive behavior.

However with good boundary enforcement, Max does not need to be abused at all. Certainly not physically. And even verbal abuse that gets cut off after one sentence (by an enforcement action) hardly counts.

I know it can be done. I was able to do it myself.

The other parts do sound like things to accept.

[Cmjo]

Im sorry but I do agree with Maxsterling.

We cannot deny that the pwBPD cannot control their capability to be high conflict and abusive, perhaps it will be controlled and they will be in therapy themselves and have some insight.

The definition of abuse is intentional harm, but I wonder if a pwBPD is deregulating and shouting insults, that laterr they cannot remember because they were disassociating, if they had no control was the harm intentional (mental illness is a defence to a criminal offence!)

I thought tha was what radical acceptance was about, recognising that the person cannot be fundamentally changed.

[waverider]

In my experience my pwBPD will probably always have high conflict and a degree of abusive behavior. That is part of the disorder. However that bad behavior need not be aimed at me, as I have learned to better deal with it and pwBPD will often take the easy target. I am no longer that easy target. Maybe that is why she conflicts more now with her FOO than she used to.

Someone has to be persecutor to keep the drama going. It need not be me.

[Daniell85]

How do you get out of being the persecutor when you aren't actively doing anything?

For example when they are giving ST, and you are letting them have that space?

[Oooohm]

Max,

You may be right but I think it comes down to a matter of degrees. If you were to put my wife 12 years ago (me pre-BPD aware) next to who she is today you would not recognize her as the same person.

In her 20's she was 9 for 9 on the DSM. 30's 7 for 9. It would be difficult to even diagnose her now (50's) with the condition. 12 years ago our R/S (Metaphor alert... .) was like I was "Running full bore straight thru a forest with an angry bear right on my tail"... .now it's like "I'm strolling a well blazed trail ducking the rare low hanging branch without much effort at all".

Waverider said it best.

Hmcbart:  Your wife reminds me a lot of my wife 12 years ago.  There is light at the end of the tunnel !

Max: You ARE obviously dealing with the extreme of the disorder... .but take solace in knowing it is a "Learned" behavior, condition, disorder, short circuited coping mechanisms (Not an illness, or a disease) and  because of that it can be "un-learned" with time, effort, boundaries and firm handed love.

GK, VOC, CB, CE:  I applaud you !   

[patientandclear]

I'm not sure there is evidence that boundaries and better practices can always change BPD behaviors.  The range of BPD coping mechanisms is wide.  Some behaviors may be more amenable to management with our better practices, than others.  Some pwBPD may be more able to change than others.  I wouldn't want all partners here to expect that these behaviors will change if they just hang in and use better practices.

[Daniell85]

I am sad I didn't find this site sooner. It would have saved a lot of wear and tear.

I know my boyfriend well enough that simple validation and giving space would have managed a lot of his symptoms in terms of how stable our relationship is.

But I find myself here after another big blow out. And I had a massive reaction to what he did, the first 3 days after he did it. I don't think I have been that hurt and angry for years. I really lashed out.

I saw your comment, P&C, over on another thread. The one where I admitted I told him if he did the ST again, I was done. At this point in time, he knows I am not. I followed the advice in my own thread to reach out and touch base, let him know I am here.

I guess that means I made things way worse, because as you said, now he has abandonment fears AND feels he can walk all over me whenever he wants.

Well. What do I do now? 

[joeramabeme]

Maxx, I applaud your post and the posts/replies of others.

Reading the responses what I come to is that BPD behavior can improve over time when partnered with someone that has the knowledge and understanding of the disorder and themselves and a BP partner that is willing to change.

Regarding abuse, my wife was extremely verbally abusive; belittling, sarcastic, degrading publicly and privately etc.  I/we were seeing a therapist that when brought up as a topic, gave all of it a "pass"; meaning she just chalked it up to a bad mood etc. 

In my gut I knew the behavior and the therapist was wrong and set off to find another T for a 2nd opinion who told me ASAP abuse is not ok and I need to address it, which I did (over the course of 1 year, which is how long it took for me to stand up and say stop it). 

When I asked BPw why she abused me her response was astonishing, but perhaps relevant to this conversation, "because I let her". 

Well, I stopped "letting her" but the truth is, it was just like a game of whack-a-mole, I hit one area of abuse and a new one popped up.  It never really stopped, she just found new ways to do it.  So, I am not sure that simply addressing an unwanted behavior is the answer and I do agree that by the nature of their disorder, BPs are abusive. 

Stopping the abuse takes more than 1 person changing their behavior, it takes two, which is why you will see most of my posts on the leaving board and probably why some people disagree with what you said and others agree.

[Verbena]

So what is Max supposed to do in the meantime while he waits to see if his wife will ever get better?  

**tell himself that people with BPD are just abusive and put up with it?

**decide that if she cusses him out and hits him only half as often as she has in the past few months, that qualifies as progress?

** determine that she if she seems "enough" improved in a few weeks that he can go ahead and have a child with her?  Then worry later about how he is going to protect his child from her?  

Verbal and physical abuse is not ok.  Having a child with a severely mentally ill woman who is violent toward herself and others is just irresponsible.  


Stopping the abuse takes more than 1 person changing their behavior, it takes two

This statement really bothers me because I think this is the way Max's wife, with her disordered thinking, views it.  She sees Max as being the problem.  She has not taken any responsibility for her abuse.  Everything is his fault. 

[EaglesJuju]

My realities of staying in a BPD relationship have have been altered in the last 6 months.

I tended to view my relationship with a lot of negativity. Although I was aware of maladaptive coping mechanisms and BPD behavior, I had a defeatist viewpoint that nothing was going to change. I learn that when we constantly view our relationship with pessimism and hopelessness, we essentially set ourselves up for failure. It is like we are on edge expecting chaos to happen. If we are always on edge thinking of the possibilities of chaos in the future, we are going to cause ourselves unnecessary anxiety, fear, and worry. How is anything going to improve if we already have a defeatist attitude? How are we ever going to be happy if we constantly are walking on eggshells?  

If we change our perception on how we view our relationship, things can improve. If we view our relationship with positivity we can influence our partner. PwBPD are very perceptive to feelings and emotions. My bf can pick up on when I feel negative, hopeless, and frustrated. Many times he started arguments based off of how he perceived me. Once I started changing my perspective, my bf picked up on it. Granted he was not "cured," but he did show improvements.

Although we cannot control our pwBPD's behavior and thoughts, we can control our own. That includes participating in conflict. We have the ability to change how we react in situations.  We do not have to engage ourselves in circular arguments etc. We can enforce boundaries.

Surely, there are realities of the disorder, such as maladaptive behavior and how it affects a relationship. The question I started asking myself is, "Why am I so affected by my bf's behavior?" This led me to turn the mirror towards myself and my own behaviors and thoughts. Many times I relied on my feelings. I felt frustrated and angry. Similar to what is said to pwBPD, my own feelings do not equal facts.

I thought that my relationship would never be 50/50, until I realized that my expectations for my bf were very high. Many times my own expectations were so high, a non-disordered partner could not meet them. Many caretaker types have very high expectations and standards for their pwBPD. Once I removed that type of thinking, I started to realize that my bf does validate and support me quite often and my resentment and frustration dissipated.

Once I stepped out of the victim role that I placed myself in, I was truly able to see the realities of my relationship. A large portion of that was taking responsibility for my own behavior and changing it.  I have learned that happiness comes from within me. The reality is I cannot rely on my bf to provide happiness for me. Since I have reached this point, things have exponentially improved.  

[letmeout]

This has been a very interesting topic of discussion.

"Abuse is defined as any action that intentionally harms or injures another person".

My ex could not understand that such behavior as described above was abusive. In his BPD mind, every bad thing he did or thought was justifiable.

There was no convincing him otherwise... .

[vortex of confusion]

This has been a very interesting topic of discussion.

"Abuse is defined as any action that intentionally harms or injures another person".

My ex could not understand that such behavior as described above was abusive. In his BPD mind, every bad thing he did or thought was justifiable.

There was no convincing him otherwise... .

There was a time when I tried to tell my husband that some of his behaviors were abusive. He would try to tell me that he didn't intend to do it. He didn't mean it. Blah, blah, blah. The "intentionally" part doesn't work for me because it could be argued that what he did wasn't abuse because he wasn't trying to hurt me and he wasn't doing anything that was overtly abusive.

[Loosestrife]

I was thinking yesterday that the decision to stay in a relationship with a pwBPD comes with some realities that we must accept in order to move forward.

- a relationship with a pwBPD will always be a "high conflict" relationship.  Why?  pwBPD view their entire life as conflict, with very little time living in the moment or in the present.  The pwBPD always has things he/she is upset over or resentful of.  We must accept that extended "quiet peaceful times" are unlikely, and that conflict is the norm.  If we have expectations of tranquil periods, we are likely to become disappointed and resentful.

- a relationship with a pwBPD is almost guaranteed to be abusive in some fashion.  It may be verbal, emotional, or physical.  Boundaries can help limit our exposure to the abuse, but I think some level of abuse is a certainty. 

- a relationship with a pwBPD will feel unstable, because it is unstable.  The reality here is pwBPD have a tendency for rapid changes in extreme emotion, and that feels unstable on our end.  In order to not "walk on eggshells" here, we must learn to accept that the pwBPD may have a change of mood at any time and leave us and recycle us. 

- a relationship with a pwBPD will never feel "50/50".  We will feel that we are putting way more in than what we get out, and believe it or not the pwBPD will feel that way, too.  We must learn to accept that the "healthy relationship checklist" does not apply here. 

- a relationship with a pwBPD requires us to have a strong ability for self care.  Reality is we can't depend on our partners for support, so we need to be self sufficient and have an outside support network of friends, family, and therapists.  If we have expectations of the pwBPD to be there for us, then we will likely be disappointed and become resentful.

My point is, these r/s are not easy, and we truly must be willing if we are to find happiness. 

I struggle to see how any of the above equate to happiness, sorry

[Mutt]

I think a lesson I took away from my marriage was:

"Change comes from you. Change doesn't come from someone else"

I felt like I had two choices after the end of my marriage. Either I continued on the same path and things were going to be difficult for everyone in the family.

Or change, that way everyone wins.

[waverider]

You alone cannot fix BPD

You can take yourself out of the line of fire, this reduces conflict and abuse between you. You cannot control any conflict and abuse with anyone else.

With conflict and abuse reduced you can provide more constructive support and will reduce their defensiveness.

You cannot explain or convince them of anything, their understanding needs to evolve.

These changes take a long time, and are not guaranteed.

As long as you believe it is not possible, you will feel hopelessness, your life will be avoidance and survival.

If you believe you can improve the relationship and find happiness, you can make definite choices and you can start to thrive.

It starts with self belief.

It is most likely your self belief has been gradually stripped from you, having spent a long time were anything you did made no difference. Now you have new tools you just need the confidence and patience to apply them.

You are fixing you first of all not trying to fix your pwBPD. pwBPD react to their environment, you are a major factor in their environment