Mom poised to pull kids out of school

[kells76]

Well, sounds like Mom is set to withdraw the kids from their current school (where Dad -- my husband -- will teach starting this fall). He found out not from Mom, but from the head of the school. Possible Mom is doing the tit-for-tat thing, as DH didn't tell her he was gonna teach there -- she found out from the kids. Also possible Mom is exercising control in a situation that seems out of her control. And legally, she does have sole say on education etc.

However, her reasons are -- she thinks younger D would do better elsewhere, and even though older D has expressed multiple times to different folks her desire to stay, mom doesn't want to drive all over in the mornings. Hence older D's likely withdrawal.

I'm sad, honestly. Didn't think Mom would take it this far -- and this coming from Mom, who has repeatedly taken DH to task for "not listening to the girls". Now that older D is saying she wants to stay at school and have DH be her teacher, guess who isn't listening.

I guess some (logical) options are that DH could drive older D to school -- I mean, he's gonna be there too, right? Then Mom doesn't have to "drive all over" in the morning. Seems like it's kinda cutting younger D loose to be with Mom more, but... .

I also have a feeling that Mom will bring up money. It costs a couple hundred a month per kid for this school, vs nothing (is she thinking of fees/supplies though?) for public. Would be willing to cover current school if it comes to that, but... .

It just seems like Mom's true motives are now highly on display to all except her & Stepdad. And I think to a certain extent she realized that and is prepping to cut ties with this community that is starting to see her for who she is. The sad thing is that the girls will lose time with their friends and community if Mom does this.

Not sure if I have a question... .Just would welcome thoughts and feedback. DH is pretty unsettled by all this. Fortunately, we're seeing our counselor soon... .

[rarsweet]

I think this is horrible. Why does she have sole decision making? If your h is suitable for teaching kids he should be suitable to participate in decisions.

[kells76]

Hey rarsweet, thanks for writing back. I've read some of your backstory, and wow... .Hang in there!

Mom has sole because DH thought at the time of the divorce that they could still coparent even if they couldn't be spouses. Thought Mom would be reasonable, that the legal details wouldn't be a factor, and all that. As far as I've seen, it's been downhill since then. They've never taken anything to court... .yet. I think Mom would snap if DH tried to get joint. Things would get uglier than they are now.

Your point is very logical; I wish Mom saw it that way too  . Unfortunately we are getting to a place where both our counselor & the head of the school are saying that if Mom & Stepdad don't see that they're making this school switch decision because of Mom's needs (to maintain narrative that DH is villain, etc), not kids' needs, then it's likely nothing will convince them.

I mean, emotions have a valuable place in life -- they give us good information. But sometimes I wish reason & logic were an automatic win, ya know? 

[rarsweet]

Most States now do joint custody, unless one is unfit for it, won't communicate, or just lives too far away. I know court sucks, but really it would be worth it. Does their parenting plan or divorce decree actually say sole legal decision making? Some think sole residential responsibility means that, and it doesn't.

[kells76]

rarsweet, we're in a state where it's either everything sole or everything joint.

If this goes to court, Mom's take would be that Dad is unfit (everyone lives in the same town and Dad does text with her about the kids, so the other options are out). I think it would get ugly and I don't know that DH wants it to affect the kids. I think Mom would have no qualms about spinning it so Dad is the bad guy for wanting to tear them away from Mom or something, even though DH would be doing this so they could stay in the school they've both said they want to stay at. It's a big question for DH.

[rarsweet]

Unfit is like he is a drug addict, child abuser, molester, alcoholic with 3 duo's, can't keep a job because he parties all night, etc. We all get scared of what the pwBPD  will say, but in reality they think they sound good, but don't. If h has a job, can pass a background check, has a suitable place to live, a schedule that supports being with the children, is clean and reasonably sober, he should have decision making. Can I ask why you think it has to be sole or joint custody both legal and residential? I mean does the paperwork actually say that? In NH there are 3 basic parts, Major Decision Making, day to day desicion making, residential responsibility, and then other stuff like exchange sites, etc. I wonder what your state is?

[Mutt]

Hi kells76,



I can understand DH is worried about how it would affect the kids if she was taken to court. She may very well have a tantrum. Short term pain, long term gain? How is it affecting the kids now that mom suffers from mental illness and the emotionally stable parent is walking on eggshells?

[kells76]

Hi Mutt, thanks for the welcome

To be clear, Mom is undiagnosed, and in a sense it doesn't matter whether she is BPD or not -- she just has some very specific behaviors and attitudes that are tough for DH and me to deal with, and this is a place where people get that (thank you everyone here!)

The short- vs long-term view is a tough question. For a while, when both girls were younger and more easily convinced of Mom's view, it seemed like taking things to court would be winning the battle but losing the war (seemed likely Mom would pull out all the stops in poisoning their minds, as it were). Now that older D is on to Mom a bit more, I think Mom would likely focus her efforts on younger D, who is more easily convinced than older D at this point.

More later... .

[livednlearned]

Hi kells76,

It's hard to have no legal authority in these kinds of situations, I really feel for you and DH.  :'(

Being BPD, bio mom won't have the emotional skills to handle what should be a positive thing -- H working at the school where his kids attend. To be fair, having a parent work at the kids' school might be a difficult arrangement even in a low-conflict custody situation. It is so easy for drama triangles to form even in the best of situations. It's hard for us to think like someone who has BPD, but in her mind, she behaves the way she does because she is afraid -- like any mama, she is driven to protect herself from threats. The problem is that her feelings equal facts, which makes her vulnerable to cognitive distortions (like thinking your H is trying to take something from her).

During my custody battle, the neutrality and professionalism at S13's school was critically important to me. And in our public school, there were safeguards in place because of situations exactly like ours, where parents disagreed on what was best for the child, and the school had protocols that kept things legally very clean (if not onerous). In a high-conflict divorce or custody situation, you really want the boundaries to be as clear as possible, for everyone involved.

If anything legal came of your situation, I wonder if the judge would side with mom because H's involvement during school time colors outside the lines of any custody order that determines visitation.

I wish it weren't so, but if my ex applied to be on staff at my son's school, it would be really, really hard for me if only because it fuzzes the boundaries.

[ForeverDad]

So she is more than just Residential Parent?  An RP gets the child to attend his/her local school.

Are there other issues that you could wrap into one filing?  Appeasing or walking on eggshells isn't a long term solution.

And it is generally not good to split the kids.  Nor to have one child the Golden Child and the other virtually ignored or rejected.

[kells76]

Hi LnL,

Thanks for your thoughts. Yeah, it's tough not having legal legs to stand on -- it's not like Mom is doing anything illegal, it's just looking like a low-down move. As stepmom I can sort of let to of being able to "do" anything legally, but I hurt for H.

Your point about how a judge would see it is good food for thought. H & Mom had both been volunteering an equal amount at the school last year (both recess aides, different days). Mom didn't express any concerns about H's involvement then. I could see how if H were to teach either D, that would be fuzzy ground (even though older D says she wants him to). However H is willing to not teach either kid in the interest of lowering conflict.

I dunno... .I could see how it could look like an end-run move by H to spend more time with the kids outside of PT. But he was averaging 24 hrs a week total with the kids, as Mom's idea of EOW was 1 overnight EOW, and the time he'd be at school, Mom wouldn't be losing out on.

So... .Whew. I guess I get wrapped up in that view, and I need to work on looking at things from other perspectives. Doesn't really build my thinking skills if I don't see Mom's view. Yeah, that move seemed threatening to her, because it was so out of her control, and her expectations about when H would/wouldn't be with the kids got shaken up.

[ForeverDad]

However H is willing to not teach either kid in the interest of lowering conflict.

You do realize that sentence doesn't make sense, right?  Expecting reciprocity from a disordered person is expecting too much.  While he might be able to appease the beast at times and trigger her a little less, there will be conflict no matter what he does or doesn't do.  Therefore, he should ponder his options well and do what he feels is right and appropriate.  Yes, the court could set limits but let the court do it and not bio-mother's threats and controlling demands.  IMO

[kells76]

Hey ForeverDad;

She's got full everything in terms of custody... .Our state is "all or nothing".

In terms walking on eggshells, H has decided to keep the job even if the kids get pulled. He'd considered offering his resignation if mom would let the kids stay, but Mom looks 110% committed to pulling them no matter what now, so it seems like resigning would be a lose lose. Keeping the job is hopefully a way for H to model to the girls not walking on eggshells. We hope... .

At this point we're set to meet with the head of the school and our counselor together (both have H's back in this and have met Mom enough to see her for who she is) to come up with a plan to advocate for the kids. H wants to write Mom a letter. Maybe having a dated document recording H's wanting to support the kids staying at the current school would be good? Maybe bad? Thoughts? It at least seems like a non-face-to-face way for H to say OK, if your concerns are cost of school, transportation, and me teaching the kids, then I am more than willing to pay for school for them, manage transportation, and not teach their classes, so that they can have consistency and a supportive familiar school environment.

IDK... .There's just so much coming to a head now, and I feel so helpless.

[kells76]

And yeah, ForeverDad, you are right on that. H had the realization that if it wasn't this issue -- if he resigned, and things were copacetic again for a while -- it'd just be something else. Yay H for realizing that, but kind of a bummer truth to see 

[bravhart1]

Never ceases to amaze me how the BPD will put their mental games and machinations ahead of the children they so adamantly insist they are "protecting".

It's pretty ironic that they do all sorts of inappropriate things, say poisonous things to the kids and claim it's all for their protection, yet the one thing the kids TRULY need protection from is the BPD!

[kells76]

It sucks, bravhart1, it really does (as I know you know). Seems clear to those in the know that Mom is the one not "listening" to the kids now, instead of H, but just try to tell her that... .

I guess my question now is, so what do H & I do to maintain our integrity and really advocate for the kids, given that Mom is doing nothing illegal? I mean, is it even worth addressing Mom's "concerns" which have been all over the map? Does that legitimize the baseless concerns, or does that help H know that he has done everything he can (aside from court, which is a whole other can of worms) to keep the kids at their school?

Mom's concerns are:

-kids will be negatively emotionally affected by H's presence at the school. Possible response: get other teachers on board as resources for the kids, to monitor behavior, etc. Get kids in counseling (LOL, like Mom would ever go for that… sigh…)

-school not a good fit for younger D (not sure why). Possible response: H arranges for tutoring, asks school to provide extra academic support, etc. I mean, the school is small and flexible enough that they would probably go the extra mile for YD.

-Mom doesn't want to drive just older D to school if Mom puts YD in other school. Possible response: well, given that H will be teaching at current school, have H either drive older D personally or arrange carpool. Heck, have H arrange all transportation unless Mom wants to.

-it's too expensive. Possible response: let H know by day/date the $ difference necessary to keep kids in school, & H will pay to the school. H might even get a tuition discount by teaching there… sigh…

I guess it’s just a question of what does H have to address, regardless of where the kids end up, for him to be able to look them in the eye and say “I did everything I could to keep you there”. This school is a good place – I mean, a really good place. The kids don’t get lost in the crowd, they play with the teachers’ kids outside of school, they’ve known these other kids for years, from even before school. The sense of community is genuine and meaningful. This isn’t just Dad on a power trip – the kids thrive there, have essentially 0 behavior issues, and grow as people through the school year. IDK…  thoughts on what I should be seeing here? Thoughts on how I can be sensitive to Mom’s POV without validating the invalid?

[livednlearned]

Hi kells76,

It's tough to want something that seems so simple, and so good. Meanwhile, bio mom has the legal authority to do as she sees fit. It's always so disappointing and frustrating. We just want people with BPD to see things our way and then everything would be fine. 

I remember a Bill Eddy video where he was trying to demonstrate how BPD brains are different compared to those who aren't BPD. He talked about how one part of the brain dominates with BPD, and how that part flies up and hits the roof when they feel fear. A lot of things make them feel fearful.

It's also very hard for that part of their brain to come back down to baseline -- they return much slower than we do. Most of the communication techniques he suggests are about lowering that one side of the brain, helping it to return to baseline so pwBPD can access the problem-solving side of their brain.

Your post made me thing of this because the concerns you list, and possible responses, are based on being able to work with both parts of her brain. She's triggered, and one side of her brain is in fight or flight. To even begin working on solutions, she has to have her core fears validated.

What is she really afraid of do you think? How valid are those fears? If she were to feel validated, and could articulate her real fears, would you offer something different in return that what has already been proposed?

It does seem like there are two goals here.

One is to keep the kids in the school

Two is for H to continue teaching there

Are these goals one in the same?

[bravhart1]

I think from a person dealing with a BPD my first response would be to ask her to explain why and how the kids are damaged by H being there. Like e-x-a-c-t-l-y and make her give detailed reasons and examples. But I think we both know that she will start to give the same bs line and then run away. Typical

Now that I'm getting a little more BPD savvy I think if I were you I might say something like,

"Whew, I'm glad you don't want kiddos at the same school as H, it would probably make things hard for H, kids would see him as a real drag parental/ teacher father figure, be embarrassing for the girls and make them avoid H. I know H school might end up costing you less, and he would end up doing most of the driving, so I'm very glad you are seeing how hard this would be for H."

I know our BPDm would file something immediately  to keep kids at H school for as long as they could attend. 

[ForeverDad]

While H shouldn't want to purposely do things that would trigger his Ex, on the other hand he shouldn't go too far out of his way to avoid triggering her.  If his job is there and the kids are there, proceed.  Sometimes we have to accept that we just can't dance around every eggshell, we do our reasonable best and move ahead with life.

[kells76]

Hey LnL, thanks so much for your thoughts & questions. Lemme see where I can go with that.

What do I think Mom is really afraid of? Longish answer, but here goes. I think that when she found out that H was “chosen” to teach there (after a school year of BOTH Mom & H being volunteers), Mom felt rejected. Maybe for her it was like the school staff hiring H was sending Mom a message that Mom was the undesireable and therefore bad parent, while H was the wanted, good parent, even though I don’t even know if Mom ever even applied to teach there.

I think that Mom also is afraid that the more H is involved in the school community, the more people there will appreciate and value him. I think there isn’t room in Mom’s world for both Mom & H to be appreciated and valued by the same people – it’s either/or. So, if H is appreciated and valued, her take is that she isn’t appreciated, valued, cared about, whatever. Not enough to go around.

I think Mom is additionally afraid that H’s increased involvement with the kids would undermine her narrative – that H is the bad, abandoning, unlistening, abusive, selfish parent. The kids – not just H’s girls – and parents really like H at the school and (of course) don’t see him the way Mom wants him to be seen. More of Mom’s preferred narrative – that she & Stepdad are the “real” family, that Stepdad is the “real” dad, etc, would be threatened if more people know H personally.

Seems like one way to address Mom’s possible fears – and let me know what y’all think of this – would be to affirm her place in the school community – after all, she did volunteer this past year, and helped with some extra things around the school, in a way that turned out well & used her strengths.

And are her fears valid? Well, yes and no. She is being seen for more of what she is around the school. People bring up how she blames H for things that go wrong with the kids. So she’s kind of starting to out herself. But I have faith in this community – generally folks aren’t vindictive or petty, and would be able to keep things friendly with her even after knowing what she’s up to. So, I think she could still have the same place in the school community she’s always had, even if H teaches, even though she doesn’t think so. The changes that would happen would be the kids having a counternarrative, though, which would be frightening for Mom.

Goalwise, yes, there are 2 goals, and the #1 priority is the kids having a continuous & stable school experience. So, end of the day, if Mom’s ultimatum was either the kids stay there or you do, but not both? Well, that’s tough. ForeverDad makes some good points, that if H quits, then the kids do get to stay, but at the cost of sending them the message that you have to capitulate to Mom for things to go well. But if Dad stays, I think it likely that the message from Mom to the kids would be Well, I wanted you to stay, but Dad wouldn’t let you. H has decided not to offer his resignation right off the bat – as ForeverDad said, if it’s not this, it’ll be something else. But if Mom pushes that THAT is the thing that will make her let the kids stay? Ehrrrgghhh… That is really tough. More thoughts appreciated.

[ForeverDad]

What may help H is the concept that when he makes a decision he doesn't have to re-evaluate it over and over or every time his ex complains.  That's one skill common to so many pwBPD - the ability to push button after button after button until they get a reaction or the reaction they demand.

My experience... .

She had a very favorable temp order for custody and parenting so she was in no rush during the divorce to get to the final order.  Nearly two years later she couldn't delay any more and so Trial Day was looming.  As I entered the court house (I would say "on the court house steps" if it had steps) I was told she wanted to settle.  It was a given that a settlement would have been for equal Shared Parenting, so I decided then and there, "I will be Residential Parent or else we go in and start the trial."  Oh, was she so distressed, but I stuck to my two alternatives, me as RP or a Trial.  I later found out her lawyer told her she would probably lose at trial, so after some crying and begging she chose the least unfavorable outcome.  I became RP, then a few years later I sought and became legal guardian.  Looking back, I believe becoming LG would have been much harder to accomplish if I wasn't already RP.  So, now that I said all that, imagine how hard it would have been to withstand her pleading to be RP if I hadn't settled within myself, "this is my decision, I know it's the right thing to do, it just is what needs done and if she refuses then the court will decide."  If I had waffled or felt I had to listen to the dysfunctional person and reconsider over and over at every minute that day, it would have been very hard to do.  Looking back, for a long time I did feel bad that we settled, a part of me needed that trial and it was a major regret, but I never regretted saying, "I will be RP in a settlement or or we go back in and start the trial" and then letting her decide which she would do.  I guess it was the first time in a long, long time I felt in control of anything.

Are the children in the school they would normally attend based on mothers residence?  Or father's residence?  It would be entirely normal for him as a teacher to seek employment locally, no court would find fault with that.  Do you have documentation of her threats?  If she then chose to yank the kids out due to his employment there then I wonder if that wouldn't be basis to file for Change of Circumstances and seek majority time himself or at least Decision Making or Residential Parent?  I'm not saying it is but it's worth a question to the lawyer.

Mom has sole because DH thought at the time of the divorce that they could still coparent even if they couldn't be spouses. Thought Mom would be reasonable, that the legal details wouldn't be a factor, and all that. As far as I've seen, it's been downhill since then. They've never taken anything to court... .yet. I think Mom would snap if DH tried to get joint. Things would get uglier than they are now.

And if he doesn't ever set a boundary?  Thing could still get ugly because of something else and the way things are now - "downhill ever since" - is mush.  Lukewarm, neither hot nor cold, doesn't taste good.

[DreamGirl]

Hey kells,

First, I commend you on trying to sort all of this out. It's tough having to deal with a parent who  isn't required, by a legal or value system, to listen to your viewpoints.

I don't say this as a judgment statement, I really don't, but more as just a factual observation when it comes to the mama of my stepdaughters... .These kinds of decisions usually revolve around this list of priorities:

1.) What's best for mom

I say that, because it's important to have a clear picture of the goal the other person is trying to obtain.

Your stepdaughters mama (for whatever reason) sees the issue (perceived or not) that there will be an emotional effect on the kids if your H is a teacher at the school. The solution is to switch schools. I'd validate her concern and not try to change her perceptions.  

You've accepted that court is not an option (I'm in that place too).

If it were me, I'd time stamp it --- the girls mama can tend to get herself all worked up. Time helps her get back to baseline. She's also pretty open if the options are left open -- it helps her feel more in control of the outcome. Bottom line is your stepdaughters mom probably knows that it's in the girls best interest to stay put. Her fears aren't really valid, everything will probably be just fine, she just needs to see it for herself.   

Hey Mom,

I think all of your concerns are valid.

I also don't want there to be a negative affect on them with my new position at the school.  

Changing schools is a lot of work, for you and the girls. How about we see how the first semester goes at [current school] and if anyone is uncomfortable (you, the kids, myself) we can address it at that time?

Dad

I tried to find it but wasn't able... .how old are the girls?

How do they feel about switching schools?

My stepdaughters dug their heels in when mom tried switch schools for the third time. As they get older, they tend to be their own champions in this.

~DreamGirl

[kells76]

Hi DG, thanks for your thoughts... .

That's helpful to think about finding the shared goals. H does share the goal of not having his teaching negatively impact the kids, so there's that... .

The letter is helpful, too. Could you expand a bit on what you would be communicating by telling Mom that all her concerns are valid? I'm pretty sure you don't mean "Every fear you feel has a basis in reality"... .Do you mean more that you would see her concerns and understand where they are coming from?

The kids are 9 & 7. SD7 is so easygoing, impressionable, young, & present-time-oriented that she would say she'd be happy anywhere, depending on who asked and how they couched the question. SD9 has expressed to H and to her main teacher at school that she very much wants to come back next year and has no problem with H teaching her.

Please tell me more about what you mean by "time-stamping" it -- I'm not sure I'm tracking

And finally, I do want to put out there that a lot of my questions are related to things about me that are mine to work on -- that is, it's hard for me to see what seems to be injustice happening to those powerless to prevent it. My hackles go up and I often fear not doing enough to stop it, if you know what I mean. But that's something for me to work on... .

[ForeverDad]

Hey Mom,

I think all of your concerns are valid... .

Could you expand a bit on what you would be communicating by telling Mom that all her concerns are valid? I'm pretty sure you don't mean "Every fear you feel has a basis in reality"... .Do you mean more that you would see her concerns and understand where they are coming from?

I agree, telling the mother that "her concerns are valid" would fuel her entitlement and ability to say "See, you agree I'm right, so either you leave or the kids leave!"  PwBPD have an astounding ability to single out and latch onto an enabling phrase and run with it endlessly even if by itself it is largely generic and taken out of context.

How about, "I can understand your concerns but the kids are doing just fine in the school and I'd just be another one of the many teachers there."  And maybe add, "Also, if an emergency came up such as one of the girls getting sick and you were called, then I'd be able to handle things until you arrived."

I do like the point to deflect the matter until months later with the "let's see how it goes" alternative.  The longer he and the girls are together in the same school, the harder it will be for her to have realistic basis to yank them out.

[DreamGirl]

I'm not enabling --- I'm just validating.

If you add a bunch of invalidating verbiage ("the girls are fine" can just further the argument.

See here: https://bpdfamily.com/coparenting/02.htm

Could you expand a bit on what you would be communicating by telling Mom that all her concerns are valid? I'm pretty sure you don't mean "Every fear you feel has a basis in reality"... .Do you mean more that you would see her concerns and understand where they are coming from?

Exactly. She's a concerned mom. There's validity to her being concerned with Dad showing up at school. It's also a pretty normal set of feelings for a parent. i.e. I personally think my exH (not the pwBPD in my life) is overbearing sometimes and overly involved when it comes to my son's sports --- I struggled when he was his baseball coach.

It's her reaction (not the concern) that is full of the Borderline traited coping skills.

The kids are 9 & 7. SD7 is so easygoing, impressionable, young, & present-time-oriented that she would say she'd be happy anywhere, depending on who asked and how they couched the question. SD9 has expressed to H and to her main teacher at school that she very much wants to come back next year and has no problem with H teaching her.

I hear you.

I think they'd prefer to stay put too. I mean who likes change?

Please tell me more about what you mean by "time-stamping" it -- I'm not sure I'm tracking

So my suggestion is saying give it an open-ended deadline. A month, a semester, a year. Give mom a chance to make the decision based on what happens, not what she thinks is going to happen. Paint it up so that it looks like it's in the best interests of the girls and that you're open to her thoughts of a new school too (or Dad even quitting!).  

Let everyone see how it works out. You have to be open to change too. If the girls go to a different school, that's OK too. Lots of kids switch schools. My oldest switching schools his Freshmen year was probably the best thing that ever happened to him.

And finally, I do want to put out there that a lot of my questions are related to things about me that are mine to work on -- that is, it's hard for me to see what seems to be injustice happening to those powerless to prevent it. My hackles go up and I often fear not doing enough to stop it, if you know what I mean. But that's something for me to work on... .

Being a stepmom in these situations can feel like the most powerless position to be in. But it's really not.

My goal in this is to try and be the cooler head. I've gained a lot of skills in not only how to interact with the mentally ill person but in how to interact with my husband and the kids so that they're not getting all riled up at some of that which isn't always fair.

Life is far too short and I'm far too poor to be at ends with their mama all the time. That takes a lot of accepting of who she is and knowing her limits when it comes to conflict. My husband and I tend to do most of the heavy lifting.    

[kells76]

Well, things have taken a bit of a strange turn, and I'm not sure what to make of it yet.

A few days ago, H got a heads up from the (current) school that Mom had finally emailed to say that she was not going to enroll the kids there this fall... .except for maybe some electives. H then sent Mom the email he'd been working on, saying he's aware she's thinking about enrolling them elsewhere, and if she has concerns about money, transportation, his presence, or academic support, here are things A, B, C, & D they could do to help. He said that SD9 especially has voiced wanting to stay there, so how about he and Mom listen to her voice and work to make that happen (Note: H "not listening" to SDs or "not giving them a voice" has been a HUGE deal for Mom and a constant place for her blame to return). He also said he saw it was difficult for Mom to not be informed by him about this job, and that in the future, he would inform her personally when his job affects the kids.

Granted, H & I were taking bets about Mom's response    Would it be no response, unrelated response, or bombing campaign? H got the “ignore content of email” response. Mom basically said that she & Stepdad decided this was the best decision (because the girls’ current school would be “too different” in the fall… whaaaa?), that she actually was listening to the girls, and she would keep their friendships going via the elective classes. Oh, and she’s going to totally homeschool them. Yowza!

So, on the one hand, this is sort of good for the girls. Mom wants to save face with them so much that she’s constructed this way to say Yes, of course I listen, look how they still take classes at the school. And I guess any time that the kids spend at the school is better than none. And, in a way, the devil you know is sometimes better than the one you don’t – at least H & I know what the girls are up against with Mom versus whatever school Mom would’ve put them in without telling H.

But Mom has done this in such a way as to still minimize their time with H (who likely won’t teach electives), and she didn’t respond to any of H’s offers to help with her previous concerns. I’m concerned about how invalidating this might be for the kids. I fear that Mom will minimize their desire – especially SD9’s – by making it about how good a mom she is for letting SD9 stay for 1 class after all… even though I’m pretty sure that wasn’t SD9’s idea of staying 

In a way, this outcome is more frustrating than Mom changing the kids’ school entirely. It’s like Mom wants to have her cake & eat it too. Again, at least the kids will get to be there a bit, and maybe that’ll be enough for them to actually tell Mom they want to be there full time… but still, I worry. I mean, this is a level of deviousness that is frankly surprising, and there I thought nothing she did could surprise me any more. And it’s kind of sticking a knife in H – like scheduling the girls’ lives in such a way as to avoid him specifically. Sure, kids, you can stay at school, except for the classes H teaches.

Thoughts on how to talk with the girls about this – honestly? I mean, I don’t want to be like, Oh yeah, look how you still get to take one class there, so Mom really listened to you. But blaming it on Mom isn’t the way to go, either. I mean… how do you explain Mom basically saying You can stay at the school, but not in Dad’s class? Our T thought that saying “Mom didn’t think it was a good idea” would cover the bases, and to some extent I agree – I mean, what’s Mom going to do? Disagree and say she did think it was a good idea for H to teach them? Any other thoughts?

[livednlearned]

What are ways to validate the girls without editorializing/explaining? Validation can remove you from any drama triangles.

"How do you feel about the arrangement?"

"Are you excited about seeing friends in the elective classes?"

"You seem sad about xyz."

"You seem glad about abc."

I can see how you and H have skin in this game, and it probably feels like a real loss to see things fall apart like this. I can also see how validating the girls and detaching allows them to self-soothe (and important skill for kids with BPD parents). It's a sad outcome, and it's ok to let it be just that -- sad.

On a related note, there are some stories here about BPD parents and homeschooling. What are some ways you and H can keep track of how the girls are doing, to make sure they're keeping up with peers?

It might be worth drafting an email to focus on this, and to ask bio mom to fill in some details on how they'll be homeschooled, what happens if the girls fall behind, contingencies (leverage) if they do, etc.

Is that the next step for you?

[ForeverDad]

My ex too wanted to home school, though not to avoid me but because she was hyper-vigilant about everyone 'probably' being an abuser.  Fortunately, homeschooling never happened.  However, homeschooling is a way disordered parents will try to isolate the children (in this case, from H) or control whatever the situation is.

Would it be too triggering to her for H to respond, "It is your decision, I can work with that, it will give me an opportunity to help her with her sessions and assignments when she is with me.  As you know, the order specifies the children can be with me whenever I'm not at work and since I am a teacher, I'm qualified and available to help them with their home-based classwork.*  I do have concerns that she will have less contact with other children during the weekdays as she has had in past years."  Whether she gets triggered or not, I think it needs to be said.  He will need the documentation, both his stated concerns as well as his cooperation with the order, in case they ever return to court.

* From a prior post it seems the order isn't very specific, but his past attempts to avoid conflict ended up with him having minimal time.  I wonder whether him stating this would make her rethink taking the kids out of school, to avoid him seeing the girls, since homeschooling would actually give him basis to see them more than just passing them in the hallways.

What does H think about that?  Does he agree that homeschooling handled by mother will not turn out well, or at least have more disadvantages than advantages for daughter?  Frankly, he needs to set some Boundaries or else he will continue to be sidelined as before.

[bravhart1]

It sounds to me like the real trigger here WAS  moms feeling that the school did not see her as the "better parent" as you stated earlier so she found a way to compete with your husband to best him at the teaching game.

If our BPDm tried to home school we would be triggered ourselves.   She places a very low value on education and a very high value on control and limiting access.

Do you feel she is able to homeschool effectively? Is she organized and motivated, patient, and educated herself?

She made this decision without even consulting your H? That seems like a huge decision, to marginalize dad and just announce "it to be so" seems pretty disrespectful.

[kells76]

Thanks y'all :-)

LnL, I will do my best at the validation sans explanation. Sounds helpful. I think where I (& H, even more) might get stuck is facing a specific question like "Why can't I go there all the time?" Wondering if that's where the "Mom didn't think it was a good idea" answer might come in, or if there's another validating but still honest response. SD9 is probably old enough to notice an evasive answer, even if it's validating.

That is a really helpful idea that you & ForeverDad had about getting progress updates from Mom. Homeschoolers in our state have to take yearly (I think) tests, so if Mom tries to fudge any lack of progress, at least there's those as benchmarks.

ForeverDad, good call on H saying something like "It's your decision that I will work with." In terms of concerns about homeschooling... .That's tough. I was homeschooled, & the socialization-based arguments held little water for me -- mostly because my folks were consistent with church, extracurriculars, & play dates. Mom has said she'll keep up on those, but with the exception of the kids' sports, I haven't seen much action there. So, as much as I have a personal aversion to bringing up "But what about their peers?", that might be a tack to take.

And yeah, nail on the head -- nearly every attempt by H to concede something to keep conflict low results in less time for him, usually an hour or two per week, often more. It really builds. It would be interesting to see Mom's response to Dad bringing up the order. She flipped out last time, but the basis for her unilateral action this time is the order. So, if she wants to follow it now, maybe H does too... .

It just always seems to circle back to if/when the kids are strong enough to withstand whatever Mom would pressure then with if H held firm -- be it informally or via court. He doesn't want to put them in the middle and is losing time now because of it, but because of taking the long view that they'll be healthier this way. So hard to know what to do.

[Swiggle]

Thanks y'all :-)

LnL, I will do my best at the validation sans explanation. Sounds helpful. I think where I (& H, even more) might get stuck is facing a specific question like "Why can't I go there all the time?" Wondering if that's where the "Mom didn't think it was a good idea" answer might come in, or if there's another validating but still honest response. SD9 is probably old enough to notice an evasive answer, even if it's validating.

I don't know you'll have to ask mom.

You may have your thoughts about why but let me mom be the one to answer. Our T helped us a lot with both my kids and DH's kids when they would ask question about the other parents decisions. You can validate by saying it must be hard to not be able to go there full time but you'll have to ask mom why you can't. And from what out T has stated it is ok to say "we don't agree" but it was mom's decision and she will need to tell you why that was her decision.

[ForeverDad]

We separated in 2005 when son was about 3.5 years old.  My son never went before the magistrate for an "in camera" interview until 2013 when he was 11.  Mother was trying to hold on to equal time and hoped son would side with her, he was just about old enough for the court to consider his feelings and wishes.  All those years before the court never considered him old enough to ask.  (Turned out he tried not to favor either parent but GAL and magistrate noticed that he was more relaxed when talking about me.)

What I'm saying is that young children are seldom asked what they want by the court, not old enough to decide - the GAL and CE as professionals do talk to young children, court doesn't - if H waits until she's older and she is influenced by mother then the court may take her wishes under consideration.

[kells76]

ForeverDad, you have good advice. H is feeling pretty overwhelmed right now (well, guess I am, too... .), so he's not yet talking court seriously -- more at the "take one day at a time" phase. It does sound like the sooner the better may apply here, though, so I will keep checking in with H.

Swiggle, thanks for the reminder on basic answers. Easy for me to forget when I'm overwhelmed. Funny thing was, SD9 didn't seem to have questions, per se, for H... .

H checked in with the kids the other night about whether they knew what they'd be doing for school in the fall. Apparently Mom's line, which SD9 believes, is that SD9 is going to be homeschooled b/c Mom & Stepdad can't afford the current school. It sounded more like SD9 was repeating whatever Mom had said the plan would be, versus asking H questions. So now H is in the position of knowing that the kids are being lied to.

He doesn't want to tell the kids directly "Well, that's not true, I told Mom we could work something out financially". (He has told the kids that he wrote to Mom to try to change her mind). But would telling Mom what he heard from the kids even be helpful at this point -- maybe just as a paper trail that H is trying to work with what Mom is saying the problem is?

[DreamGirl]

Sometimes the kiddos will get lied to or be told part truths. It's part of the deal and there is some level of "normalcy" to telling the kids part of why we do what we do. i.e. I tell my kids that a class trip isn't in the budget without giving the specifics of why exactly (i.e. Dad isn't willing to help or all the extra money went to family therapy).   

Perhaps there is a bottom line there, perhaps Mom and Stepdad made a financial decision and this is the part they decided to share with the children.  It's hard being the non-custodial parent when the other parent makes a decision against what you think is best. However, she has final say according to the court order. Do you think that she has the capability? Do you think the courts think she has the capability?

I try to face each challenge with a grounded set of eyes. Yes, she probably got pretty upset about Dad getting a job at the school without being consulted. Yes, she's probably overreacting trying to prove a point. At the end of the day, intentions aren't really relevant. She's going to homeschool them and the question is if that's OK or not.

Your preference is that the kids go to the school they went to last year. Her belief is that home-schooling is better for the girls (and their family) and her compromise is that she homeschools while they attend elective classes at the same school. It also sounds like she has some kind of background in education.

Are you against giving homeschooling a chance?

My bet is that if this is an impulsive, knee-trigger reaction to the new job? It's not what she really wants. She also has dug in her heels if only to prove her point.  So my prediction is that it'll probably be a short term solution and come next year will most likely change. Along the way, someone (you, a teacher, the kids, her, a counselor) will probably pipe up and say that all this change isn't really working.

My husband has joint decision making but was trumped by her residential custody a couple of times. He thought it best they stay in the same school but mama didn't think it mattered. The girls in the end were the ones who said "No more, mom. You can move in again with [insert boyfriend] but you need to drive us to the same school. We're done switching."

Try not to get worked up kells76. I know it's hard when you see some poor, impulsive, selfish decisions being made. In the end, this stuff tends to work out. The mama in your situation sounds like she loves her girls but may not respect the fact that part of loving them has to involve the other parent. I tend to covertly deal with these matters rather then taking the bull by the horns. i.e. Agreeing to disagree about the decision but then doing everything possible to stay involved in a supporting way rather then taking her to court.

I've just found that the less threatened she feels, the more cooperative she is willing to be... .

And in the end she probably possessed the same values. Most people believe that staying in the same school is better for the kids. She just didn't want anyone telling her what to do.

[ForeverDad]

While I didn't feel to describe H's Ex as politely as DreamGirl did - trying to help us to see Ex's perspective and overreactions - I did think that if he expressed the perspective, "Well, if you do take the girls out of school, then I'll make sure I help out with their schoolwork to compensate for the change to home schooling" then she might see that pulling them out of school would not reduce his contact with them but would increase his involvement with parenting and schoolwork versus just leaving the girls in school.

Of course, logic and reason probably aren't kept handy in her tool belt so anything he tries could still fail.  I had also mentioned court since this, when combined with his other issues, could be seen as something 'actionable' or qualifying for the "Change of Circumstances" needed for the court to open up a process to review and modify custody along with improving the parenting schedule.  While she is used to taking control and saying No to H whenever she wishes, when in court the judge is The Authority.  Court is almost certainly at least a little less unfair than the Ex.  The question is how much.

I suspect the girls aren't of an age, resoluteness or determination to stand up to mom and say, "No, I'm staying in school."  If they were approaching or in their teens, maybe.

[kells76]

Hey DreamGirl, thanks for helping me keep thinking this through. I’ll try to respond to some of your questions, then maybe we could see where we go from there.

Lemme start by saying that at the end of the day, the big question for me personally is about what I’m responsible for, especially in regards to someone else’s well-being. So if I see something happening to the kids that to me looks not good, the question is – are things “not good” enough to act? And if so, what do I do? Maybe you guys have picked up on that thread in my questions here already   but basically I have a hard time seeing an ambiguous situation and not knowing when to do something. Is it bad enough now? What about now? What about with this new piece of information, is now when I step in, or let H know that I think a line has been crossed? What I bring to the table problem-wise is a feeling that I HAVE to do SOMETHING to help. That’s on me.

OK, that being said… Yeah, parents oughtn’t tell kids everything, and sometimes omitting info about a situation, while developmentally appropriate, might be construed as “lying”. I’m with you there. Maybe where I’m getting stuck is that H offered to work something out financially with Mom to make school happen. Mom has been OK asking H for money for the kids’ sports & activities before this. I am having a hard time personally with knowing that, knowing that H offered to help, and then hearing that Mom is telling the kids they can’t afford school. So perhaps the problem isn’t so much Mom not telling the kids the whole story, as H & I knowing more of the story. Make sense? And then, of course, the question is… what to do with that information? Encourage Mom again that H can help financially with school?

I don’t know if I could give an unbiased take on Mom’s capability of making decisions that are best for the kids. I think that most of the decisions she makes regarding the kids are primarily focused on what Mom needs and feels, but the results of those decisions can go either way – some of those decisions are great for the kids, and some are not. Maybe I am wrong, there, though. I mean, I know I can make decisions about what I’ll ask the kids to do, or how I interact with them, based on how I feel or what I’m up for. So we’re all human there. Also, I think a court would not see her as unfit. Then again, a court wouldn’t see H as unfit, either, but Mom does.

Yes, H (and I) would prefer the girls stay at the same school. That is a different preference than Mom’s. I think my anger and sense of frustration and injustice get in the way of me seeing the positive side of Mom’s compromise with the kids about taking electives. It is hard for me to feel grateful for that when my lenses are focused on how Mom is doing that at the expense of the kids interacting with H at school. I do feel angry about that. Also, Mom does not have a background in education, to answer that question.

Am I against giving homeschooling a chance? Not if the question is about homeschooling per se (I had a great experience being homeschooled as a kid, so it’s not that I oppose homeschooling as such). If the question is whether I’m against giving some other type of education a chance versus the current school… again, I think the tough part for me is knowing why Mom probably made that decision. Maybe it wouldn’t have been as hard if it Mom hadn’t decided it on the heels of hearing about H getting hired. Maybe it still would’ve. Maybe it’s a cop-out answer to say “No, I’d be fine with it, if the background situation were different”. Overall, I’m probably responding so strongly to it because it seems unjust to me, and I feel powerless to rectify that perceived injustice.

I think your take on Mom’s reaction may be right. I feel stuck knowing the right thing to do, then. I mean, if this might not be what Mom really wants, or was planning on doing, and if the kids said they wanted to stay at the same school, and if H thinks the kids are better off staying… then how does he work with that? How does he work with Mom maybe not REALLY wanting this change, but just reacting? It seems like one of those situations where the more you (even kindly) encourage someone to not do what they just reactively committed to doing, the more they really seem to want to do it.

To answer ForeverDad’s supposition, too, no, the kids aren’t really old enough to stand up for what they want yet. On the one hand, I know that they will probably need to go through some hard experiences with Mom in order to learn what she’s like and how to deal with her style of making decisions. And to a certain extent H (and I) are OK with that. On the other hand, if H and I see this possibly detrimental situation, and step back and do nothing and say “Well, the kids just need to suffer and hurt and learn from it” – I mean, how is that loving the kids? Where is that middle ground? Where do we find the line, that boundary, where if Mom does X, or threatens Y, THAT is too much? (Hard question to answer, I know  )

SIGH. DreamGirl, I DO need to remember not to get too worked up. You definitely read my worked-up tone right  And the part about this stuff tending to work out… I think it comes back to my question above, about where’s the line, and the stuff I bring to the table, about wanting to fix injustice. But that makes me think of another question… You mentioned that the less threatened Mom feels, the more cooperative she’s willing to be. So… for you, was “agreeing to disagree” but “staying involved” a way that Mom felt less threatened? See, for H, I think his very involvement is what is threatening to Mom – much less his verbal/written interactions with her. That gets me stuck. I mean, I think H does fairly well (and has improved over the years) at staying on topic in emails in a non-threatening way. But it’s not his writing that gets Mom’s goat… it’s that he’s still in the girls’ lives, when part of what Mom wants is for Stepdad to be Dad. So my perspective on it, which granted is both limited and subjective, is that H can say or write whatever, but when he wants to have reasonable time with the kids, or be involved in their school, or actually be the only one called Dad – in short, his actual, real, physical presence in their lives – that’s what threatens Mom.

I know this is long, and I appreciate all y’all being here with me. Please help me keep learning – I know I have a long way to go.

[ForeverDad]

DreamGirl is a mother and stepmother.  She's been there, done that and can empathize with your situation and dilemma.  My history is different.  I had a hyper-vigilant ex to deal with and had to go to court to get just about anything and everything.  So yes, my answer was a bit less soft and 'feel good' than hers.  So... .Pardon me for my perspective.   No response is entirely right or wrong, you can receive a variety of ideas and suggestions and you can choose from among them or modify them to fit how you or H want to proceed.

I was primarily writing to H, that he's been more or less sidelined and will continue to be sidelined unless he sets a few boundaries, that is, makes his stand on the issues he's concerned about.

For example, (#1) I think it was said he's not getting as much time with the children as the order states.  Yes, it's vague but what I had written before was that he could say, "Since the kids are going to be homeschooled then I'll use more of my ordered time so I can be available to see how they progress and be more involved."  Maybe that will prompt her to rethink her emotional gut reaction to withdraw the kids simply because he will be somewhere in the school.  I was thinking it's worth a try.

(#2) When he communicates with her, he shouldn't say homeschooling is a good idea.  What he can say is it's her decision (ordered custody).  Why?  If he says he's all for it and then sometime down the line he's in court stating he didn't agree with homeschooling then she might whip out his text or email that said, "Hey, that's great!"  So he doesn't want to document anything for her that might end up sabotaging himself later.  He needs to think ahead just in case he does the now-unthinkable-bold and does end up fixing the order in court.

(#3) H ought to ponder if now might be the first time he has sufficient basis to return to court seeking (1) better clarity in the order and (2) changing her full custody to joint custody and him having some level of Decision Making or Tie Breaker status.  He's going to work at their school.  Great.  She pulls the kids out as soon as she learns of it, likely even writing she's doing it because of his work change.  Bad for her, it could be used to convince the court that it's really about her obstructing him and not really for the good of the children.  Her timing and reasons are all wrong.  Will that mean something to court?  Hard to say.  However, the time to act on this is running out.  If he files with court in two years, "I don't like the homeschooling, I want them back in school", court may see it as a done deal and far too late to object or contest.

Reminds me of an example I've given.  Someone calls 911 and says, "My ex threatened me!"  And when prodded for when then says, "Last month!"  All they'll do is instruct, "Nothing to do now, call back when it's an ongoing emergency."  So H may not have to do something right now, but the more time that passes weakens the sense of urgency or actionable basis before the court.

I've explained myself and my impressions, I'll sit it out for a while.  As I said, I had to fight for every improvement in my order, H doesn't have the same circumstances or issues that I had to deal with.  I will understand if this stretches too far beyond his comfort zone.

[kells76]

ForeverDad, I didn't mean to ignore you -- I was just at work & ran out of time to respond to you after DreamGirl 

While your perspective might be offered in a different tone & from a different background, that doesn't make it less useful than other perspectives -- just different. And also, while H (and I) might feel daunted by the prospect of going to court, that doesn't mean we get to disregard advice about it just because it's uncomfortable. So if you do want to step back for a bit from this thread, please do it based on you, not me, and I do mean that very kindly. H might not ye be in a place to really engage with your advice, but that doesn't mean it isn't valuable for him to try to think about it.

I do have questions for you that would be really helpful to get your perspective on. How did going to court initially affect your relationship with your kids? Did their mom try to discredit or undermine their relationship with you? How did you handle their questions? Even though your situation isn't exactly like H's, I think hearing about your experience with your relationship with your kids and going through court would be beneficial.