Home page of BPDFamily.com, online relationship supportMember registration here
March 28, 2024, 05:57:23 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Board Admins: Kells76, Once Removed, Turkish
Senior Ambassadors: Cat Familiar, EyesUp, SinisterComplex
  Help!   Boards   Please Donate Login to Post New?--Click here to register  
bing
Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits. Practicing lawyer, Senior Family Mediator, and former Licensed Clinical Social Worker with twelve years’ experience and an expert on navigating the Family Court process.
222
Pages: 1 [2]  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Mom poised to pull kids out of school  (Read 590 times)
Swiggle
***
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner’s ex
Posts: 232



WWW
« Reply #30 on: July 16, 2015, 02:15:31 PM »

Thanks y'all :-)

LnL, I will do my best at the validation sans explanation. Sounds helpful. I think where I (& H, even more) might get stuck is facing a specific question like "Why can't I go there all the time?" Wondering if that's where the "Mom didn't think it was a good idea" answer might come in, or if there's another validating but still honest response. SD9 is probably old enough to notice an evasive answer, even if it's validating.

I don't know you'll have to ask mom.

You may have your thoughts about why but let me mom be the one to answer. Our T helped us a lot with both my kids and DH's kids when they would ask question about the other parents decisions. You can validate by saying it must be hard to not be able to go there full time but you'll have to ask mom why you can't. And from what out T has stated it is ok to say "we don't agree" but it was mom's decision and she will need to tell you why that was her decision.
Logged

“The value and quality of any love is determined solely by the lover himself.” ~ Carson McCullers
ForeverDad
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: separated 2005 then divorced
Posts: 18071


You can't reason with the Voice of Unreason...


« Reply #31 on: July 16, 2015, 02:47:24 PM »

We separated in 2005 when son was about 3.5 years old.  My son never went before the magistrate for an "in camera" interview until 2013 when he was 11.  Mother was trying to hold on to equal time and hoped son would side with her, he was just about old enough for the court to consider his feelings and wishes.  All those years before the court never considered him old enough to ask.  (Turned out he tried not to favor either parent but GAL and magistrate noticed that he was more relaxed when talking about me.)

What I'm saying is that young children are seldom asked what they want by the court, not old enough to decide - the GAL and CE as professionals do talk to young children, court doesn't - if H waits until she's older and she is influenced by mother then the court may take her wishes under consideration.
Logged

kells76
BOARD ADMINISTRATOR
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner’s ex
Posts: 3246



« Reply #32 on: July 20, 2015, 06:01:03 PM »

ForeverDad, you have good advice. H is feeling pretty overwhelmed right now (well, guess I am, too... .), so he's not yet talking court seriously -- more at the "take one day at a time" phase. It does sound like the sooner the better may apply here, though, so I will keep checking in with H.

Swiggle, thanks for the reminder on basic answers. Easy for me to forget when I'm overwhelmed. Funny thing was, SD9 didn't seem to have questions, per se, for H... .

H checked in with the kids the other night about whether they knew what they'd be doing for school in the fall. Apparently Mom's line, which SD9 believes, is that SD9 is going to be homeschooled b/c Mom & Stepdad can't afford the current school. It sounded more like SD9 was repeating whatever Mom had said the plan would be, versus asking H questions. So now H is in the position of knowing that the kids are being lied to.

He doesn't want to tell the kids directly "Well, that's not true, I told Mom we could work something out financially". (He has told the kids that he wrote to Mom to try to change her mind). But would telling Mom what he heard from the kids even be helpful at this point -- maybe just as a paper trail that H is trying to work with what Mom is saying the problem is?
Logged
DreamGirl
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner’s ex
Posts: 4015


Do. Or do not. There is no try.


« Reply #33 on: July 21, 2015, 12:03:23 PM »

Sometimes the kiddos will get lied to or be told part truths. It's part of the deal and there is some level of "normalcy" to telling the kids part of why we do what we do. i.e. I tell my kids that a class trip isn't in the budget without giving the specifics of why exactly (i.e. Dad isn't willing to help or all the extra money went to family therapy).   

Perhaps there is a bottom line there, perhaps Mom and Stepdad made a financial decision and this is the part they decided to share with the children.  It's hard being the non-custodial parent when the other parent makes a decision against what you think is best. However, she has final say according to the court order. Do you think that she has the capability? Do you think the courts think she has the capability?

I try to face each challenge with a grounded set of eyes. Yes, she probably got pretty upset about Dad getting a job at the school without being consulted. Yes, she's probably overreacting trying to prove a point. At the end of the day, intentions aren't really relevant. She's going to homeschool them and the question is if that's OK or not.

Your preference is that the kids go to the school they went to last year. Her belief is that home-schooling is better for the girls (and their family) and her compromise is that she homeschools while they attend elective classes at the same school. It also sounds like she has some kind of background in education.

Are you against giving homeschooling a chance?

My bet is that if this is an impulsive, knee-trigger reaction to the new job? It's not what she really wants. She also has dug in her heels if only to prove her point.  So my prediction is that it'll probably be a short term solution and come next year will most likely change. Along the way, someone (you, a teacher, the kids, her, a counselor) will probably pipe up and say that all this change isn't really working.

My husband has joint decision making but was trumped by her residential custody a couple of times. He thought it best they stay in the same school but mama didn't think it mattered. The girls in the end were the ones who said "No more, mom. You can move in again with [insert boyfriend] but you need to drive us to the same school. We're done switching."

Try not to get worked up kells76. I know it's hard when you see some poor, impulsive, selfish decisions being made. In the end, this stuff tends to work out. The mama in your situation sounds like she loves her girls but may not respect the fact that part of loving them has to involve the other parent. I tend to covertly deal with these matters rather then taking the bull by the horns. i.e. Agreeing to disagree about the decision but then doing everything possible to stay involved in a supporting way rather then taking her to court.

I've just found that the less threatened she feels, the more cooperative she is willing to be... .

And in the end she probably possessed the same values. Most people believe that staying in the same school is better for the kids. She just didn't want anyone telling her what to do.
Logged

  "What I want is what I've not got, and what I need is all around me." ~Dave Matthews

ForeverDad
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: separated 2005 then divorced
Posts: 18071


You can't reason with the Voice of Unreason...


« Reply #34 on: July 21, 2015, 12:28:52 PM »

While I didn't feel to describe H's Ex as politely as DreamGirl did - trying to help us to see Ex's perspective and overreactions - I did think that if he expressed the perspective, "Well, if you do take the girls out of school, then I'll make sure I help out with their schoolwork to compensate for the change to home schooling" then she might see that pulling them out of school would not reduce his contact with them but would increase his involvement with parenting and schoolwork versus just leaving the girls in school.

Of course, logic and reason probably aren't kept handy in her tool belt so anything he tries could still fail.  I had also mentioned court since this, when combined with his other issues, could be seen as something 'actionable' or qualifying for the "Change of Circumstances" needed for the court to open up a process to review and modify custody along with improving the parenting schedule.  While she is used to taking control and saying No to H whenever she wishes, when in court the judge is The Authority.  Court is almost certainly at least a little less unfair than the Ex.  The question is how much.

I suspect the girls aren't of an age, resoluteness or determination to stand up to mom and say, "No, I'm staying in school."  If they were approaching or in their teens, maybe.
Logged

kells76
BOARD ADMINISTRATOR
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner’s ex
Posts: 3246



« Reply #35 on: July 22, 2015, 02:46:38 PM »

Hey DreamGirl, thanks for helping me keep thinking this through. I’ll try to respond to some of your questions, then maybe we could see where we go from there.

Lemme start by saying that at the end of the day, the big question for me personally is about what I’m responsible for, especially in regards to someone else’s well-being. So if I see something happening to the kids that to me looks not good, the question is – are things “not good” enough to act? And if so, what do I do? Maybe you guys have picked up on that thread in my questions here already  Smiling (click to insert in post)  but basically I have a hard time seeing an ambiguous situation and not knowing when to do something. Is it bad enough now? What about now? What about with this new piece of information, is now when I step in, or let H know that I think a line has been crossed? What I bring to the table problem-wise is a feeling that I HAVE to do SOMETHING to help. That’s on me.

OK, that being said… Yeah, parents oughtn’t tell kids everything, and sometimes omitting info about a situation, while developmentally appropriate, might be construed as “lying”. I’m with you there. Maybe where I’m getting stuck is that H offered to work something out financially with Mom to make school happen. Mom has been OK asking H for money for the kids’ sports & activities before this. I am having a hard time personally with knowing that, knowing that H offered to help, and then hearing that Mom is telling the kids they can’t afford school. So perhaps the problem isn’t so much Mom not telling the kids the whole story, as H & I knowing more of the story. Make sense? And then, of course, the question is… what to do with that information? Encourage Mom again that H can help financially with school?

I don’t know if I could give an unbiased take on Mom’s capability of making decisions that are best for the kids. I think that most of the decisions she makes regarding the kids are primarily focused on what Mom needs and feels, but the results of those decisions can go either way – some of those decisions are great for the kids, and some are not. Maybe I am wrong, there, though. I mean, I know I can make decisions about what I’ll ask the kids to do, or how I interact with them, based on how I feel or what I’m up for. So we’re all human there. Also, I think a court would not see her as unfit. Then again, a court wouldn’t see H as unfit, either, but Mom does.

Yes, H (and I) would prefer the girls stay at the same school. That is a different preference than Mom’s. I think my anger and sense of frustration and injustice get in the way of me seeing the positive side of Mom’s compromise with the kids about taking electives. It is hard for me to feel grateful for that when my lenses are focused on how Mom is doing that at the expense of the kids interacting with H at school. I do feel angry about that. Also, Mom does not have a background in education, to answer that question.

Am I against giving homeschooling a chance? Not if the question is about homeschooling per se (I had a great experience being homeschooled as a kid, so it’s not that I oppose homeschooling as such). If the question is whether I’m against giving some other type of education a chance versus the current school… again, I think the tough part for me is knowing why Mom probably made that decision. Maybe it wouldn’t have been as hard if it Mom hadn’t decided it on the heels of hearing about H getting hired. Maybe it still would’ve. Maybe it’s a cop-out answer to say “No, I’d be fine with it, if the background situation were different”. Overall, I’m probably responding so strongly to it because it seems unjust to me, and I feel powerless to rectify that perceived injustice.

I think your take on Mom’s reaction may be right. I feel stuck knowing the right thing to do, then. I mean, if this might not be what Mom really wants, or was planning on doing, and if the kids said they wanted to stay at the same school, and if H thinks the kids are better off staying… then how does he work with that? How does he work with Mom maybe not REALLY wanting this change, but just reacting? It seems like one of those situations where the more you (even kindly) encourage someone to not do what they just reactively committed to doing, the more they really seem to want to do it.

To answer ForeverDad’s supposition, too, no, the kids aren’t really old enough to stand up for what they want yet. On the one hand, I know that they will probably need to go through some hard experiences with Mom in order to learn what she’s like and how to deal with her style of making decisions. And to a certain extent H (and I) are OK with that. On the other hand, if H and I see this possibly detrimental situation, and step back and do nothing and say “Well, the kids just need to suffer and hurt and learn from it” – I mean, how is that loving the kids? Where is that middle ground? Where do we find the line, that boundary, where if Mom does X, or threatens Y, THAT is too much? (Hard question to answer, I know  Smiling (click to insert in post) )

SIGH. DreamGirl, I DO need to remember not to get too worked up. You definitely read my worked-up tone right  Smiling (click to insert in post) And the part about this stuff tending to work out… I think it comes back to my question above, about where’s the line, and the stuff I bring to the table, about wanting to fix injustice. But that makes me think of another question… You mentioned that the less threatened Mom feels, the more cooperative she’s willing to be. So… for you, was “agreeing to disagree” but “staying involved” a way that Mom felt less threatened? See, for H, I think his very involvement is what is threatening to Mom – much less his verbal/written interactions with her. That gets me stuck. I mean, I think H does fairly well (and has improved over the years) at staying on topic in emails in a non-threatening way. But it’s not his writing that gets Mom’s goat… it’s that he’s still in the girls’ lives, when part of what Mom wants is for Stepdad to be Dad. So my perspective on it, which granted is both limited and subjective, is that H can say or write whatever, but when he wants to have reasonable time with the kids, or be involved in their school, or actually be the only one called Dad – in short, his actual, real, physical presence in their lives – that’s what threatens Mom.

I know this is long, and I appreciate all y’all being here with me. Please help me keep learning – I know I have a long way to go.

Logged
ForeverDad
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: separated 2005 then divorced
Posts: 18071


You can't reason with the Voice of Unreason...


« Reply #36 on: July 22, 2015, 04:51:59 PM »

DreamGirl is a mother and stepmother.  She's been there, done that and can empathize with your situation and dilemma.  My history is different.  I had a hyper-vigilant ex to deal with and had to go to court to get just about anything and everything.  So yes, my answer was a bit less soft and 'feel good' than hers.  So... .Pardon me for my perspective.   No response is entirely right or wrong, you can receive a variety of ideas and suggestions and you can choose from among them or modify them to fit how you or H want to proceed.

I was primarily writing to H, that he's been more or less sidelined and will continue to be sidelined unless he sets a few boundaries, that is, makes his stand on the issues he's concerned about.

For example, (#1) I think it was said he's not getting as much time with the children as the order states.  Yes, it's vague but what I had written before was that he could say, "Since the kids are going to be homeschooled then I'll use more of my ordered time so I can be available to see how they progress and be more involved."  Maybe that will prompt her to rethink her emotional gut reaction to withdraw the kids simply because he will be somewhere in the school.  I was thinking it's worth a try.

(#2) When he communicates with her, he shouldn't say homeschooling is a good idea.  What he can say is it's her decision (ordered custody).  Why?  If he says he's all for it and then sometime down the line he's in court stating he didn't agree with homeschooling then she might whip out his text or email that said, "Hey, that's great!"  So he doesn't want to document anything for her that might end up sabotaging himself later.  He needs to think ahead just in case he does the now-unthinkable-bold and does end up fixing the order in court.

(#3) H ought to ponder if now might be the first time he has sufficient basis to return to court seeking (1) better clarity in the order and (2) changing her full custody to joint custody and him having some level of Decision Making or Tie Breaker status.  He's going to work at their school.  Great.  She pulls the kids out as soon as she learns of it, likely even writing she's doing it because of his work change.  Bad for her, it could be used to convince the court that it's really about her obstructing him and not really for the good of the children.  Her timing and reasons are all wrong.  Will that mean something to court?  Hard to say.  However, the time to act on this is running out.  If he files with court in two years, "I don't like the homeschooling, I want them back in school", court may see it as a done deal and far too late to object or contest.

Reminds me of an example I've given.  Someone calls 911 and says, "My ex threatened me!"  And when prodded for when then says, "Last month!"  All they'll do is instruct, "Nothing to do now, call back when it's an ongoing emergency."  So H may not have to do something right now, but the more time that passes weakens the sense of urgency or actionable basis before the court.

I've explained myself and my impressions, I'll sit it out for a while.  As I said, I had to fight for every improvement in my order, H doesn't have the same circumstances or issues that I had to deal with.  I will understand if this stretches too far beyond his comfort zone.
Logged

kells76
BOARD ADMINISTRATOR
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner’s ex
Posts: 3246



« Reply #37 on: July 22, 2015, 05:48:46 PM »

ForeverDad, I didn't mean to ignore you -- I was just at work & ran out of time to respond to you after DreamGirl  Smiling (click to insert in post)

While your perspective might be offered in a different tone & from a different background, that doesn't make it less useful than other perspectives -- just different. And also, while H (and I) might feel daunted by the prospect of going to court, that doesn't mean we get to disregard advice about it just because it's uncomfortable. So if you do want to step back for a bit from this thread, please do it based on you, not me, and I do mean that very kindly. H might not ye be in a place to really engage with your advice, but that doesn't mean it isn't valuable for him to try to think about it.

I do have questions for you that would be really helpful to get your perspective on. How did going to court initially affect your relationship with your kids? Did their mom try to discredit or undermine their relationship with you? How did you handle their questions? Even though your situation isn't exactly like H's, I think hearing about your experience with your relationship with your kids and going through court would be beneficial.
Logged
Can You Help Us Stay on the Air in 2024?

Pages: 1 [2]  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Our 2023 Financial Sponsors
We are all appreciative of the members who provide the funding to keep BPDFamily on the air.
12years
alterK
AskingWhy
At Bay
Cat Familiar
CoherentMoose
drained1996
EZEarache
Flora and Fauna
ForeverDad
Gemsforeyes
Goldcrest
Harri
healthfreedom4s
hope2727
khibomsis
Lemon Squeezy
Memorial Donation (4)
Methos
Methuen
Mommydoc
Mutt
P.F.Change
Penumbra66
Red22
Rev
SamwizeGamgee
Skip
Swimmy55
Tartan Pants
Turkish
whirlpoollife



Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2006-2020, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!