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Author Topic: how to break cycle of accepting/enabling bad behaviour?  (Read 592 times)
DiamondTide

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« on: June 19, 2015, 06:04:21 AM »

(Just fyi, this is in the right forum, I mention repeated breakups, but I want to try and break the pattern IF possible & make it work)

Basically, my (diagnosed) girlfriend goes extreme hot-and-cold, one week she'll want to get married, then she'll want to break up. We've broken up about 8 times in 2 years. I've spoken to BPD sufferers who explained the issues behind this, and I truly believe she loves me deeply, & the breakups are her feeling engulfed, overwhelmed, and splitting me into believing she doesn't care anymore. It's painful to be swung to such extremes. If we got married when she wanted it would've been a few months ago. I don't even know how she thinks this behaviour would go down in that situation. I'm guessing no different.

My problem is, she can be cruel when she does this & I'm fully aware it's not ok to put up with abuse, but the ONLY advice I ever receive is "don't enable by putting up with it" and "don't have a cycle of accepting these behaviours, that's why she keeps doing it".

... .that's all very well, but what options do I have to do this, other than leaving, which I don't want to do? It happens because she knows I'll always be there to take her back no matter what she's put me through. What actions can I take to make it not acceptable, but stay with her?
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« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2015, 07:46:00 AM »

 

Welcome to the forums!

I have experienced your frustration with advice like "just don't put up with it". The piece of advice that is being left out is information about how to set boundaries to protect yourself. I have read about boundaries from a bunch of different sources and it is still hard to figure out at times.

The lessons that you can find on the right have lots of great information. I think Lesson 5 on Finding Inner Strength and Hope has information about setting boundaries and taking care of yourself. Here is the link: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=56206.msg913193#msg913193
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« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2015, 08:38:39 AM »

Hi DiamonTide,

I understand your pain and frustration.

As VOC points out, what you can do to improve is to learn how to set up strong boundaries.

I find it is very important to choose the appropriate timing to communicate these boundaries. Also, the way you phrase things and your non-verbal language are very important too. Take the time to read the lessons and what other members have come up with.

Keep posting, you'll find great support here.

Being cool (click to insert in post)

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« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2015, 08:53:39 AM »

Welcome to the forums DiamondTide! I too am still fairly new to this website. A great online family here to help with any issues you have as well as information for anything you need help with.
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DiamondTide

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« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2015, 11:12:46 AM »

thanks for the warm welcome, guys

But I also get confused about the vagueness of boundaries. In this particular situation, what kind of boundaries am I supposed to set up? What sort of consequences can there be to her breaking up with me, since boundaries are not about what the other person does, but how I respond? Because the only way I can think of is to tell her I'll cut contact if she does it, and that's defeating the point.

Edit: I noticed that sounded weird since you can't stop someone breaking up with you, but in this context, she always comes back, and always ends up saying she wished she hadn't done it. It feels more like a punishment for me, or testing me. And I always take her back so she thinks it's ok to keep doing it. (If she was clear and cut me off entirely, I wouldn't push it. I don't want anyone to think this is a 'help me get her back' thing, it's boundaries like you said, I just have no idea what boundaries I can have in this situation)

TL:)R I can't figure out the best way for me to respond to this hot/cold situation as her 'breaking up' phases hurt me and happen repeatedly because I always take her back & forgive her
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« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2015, 11:35:20 AM »

DT,

To help... .and to avoid confusion... .

WHAT IS A BOUNDRY:

The act of setting a "boundary" has more to do with you and "self reflection" than it has to do with controlling her behavior. You need to decide for yourself what YOU are willing to put up with and what you are NOT.  A boundary is meant to solidify your values, and define your emotional "Space", and to decide what level of "respect" you need as a person.  Boundaries are never supposed to be about "what you need them to do for you". They are about what you as a person have decided what "you will no longer accept"

Simple example: "I need you to call me every night before you go to bed"  (NOT a boundary)

                        "Calling me at work more than once a day isn't allowed" (Boundary)

                        "Show me your text messages from now onto prove you are not cheating" (NOT a boundary)

                        "Going thru my phone or e-mails, for me, feels like a violation and isn't allowed." (Boundary)

                        "Your not allowed to spend money anymore without checking with me"  (Not a boundary)

                        "Taking my credit card without me knowing is not allowed"  (Boundary)

                        "You can't argue with me anymore... .no matter what" (Not a boundary)

                        "Screaming at me and being verbally abusive during a disscusion is not allowed" (Boundary)

Once you decide what YOUR boundaries are... .you will need to enforce them.  

ENFORCING BOUNDARIES:

(For a future post... .gotta go)


Quickly before I go... .If it wasn't made clear.  Your Boundaries are not meant to Stop her behavior. They are YOURS.

With proper enforcement (Mixed with a lot of Love) hopefully she will learn over time what you are willing and NOT willing to accept... .or she will leave. Either way YOU have decided as a person what is acceptable to you.

                       
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DiamondTide

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« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2015, 11:43:59 AM »

No, I know what boundaries are, I appreciate your post but this is already stuff I've read and know. I'm not trying to control what SHE does, I'm saying I can't think of a healthy way to respond because my value/boundary is that I'm not ok with the repetitive hot-cold (to put it lightly) and yet I am letting it happen because I always take her back with no consequence. The whole "final straw this is not acceptable" thing is difficult when I'm not willing to cut contact with her or break up with her.
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« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2015, 12:07:50 PM »

No, I know what boundaries are, I appreciate your post but this is already stuff I've read and know. I'm not trying to control what SHE does, I'm saying I can't think of a healthy way to respond because my value/boundary is that I'm not ok with the repetitive hot-cold and yet I am letting it happen because I always take her back. The whole "final straw this is not acceptable" thing is difficult when I'm not willing to cut contact with her or break up with her.

She will feel "comfortable" and "Safe" doing it again and again... .until she doesn't.  "Learning" is 2 parts repetition, 1 part reward, and 1 part "consequences". 

She will not stay with you because leaving hurts your feelings... .(Pipe dream). She will stay because "staying" feels safe to her, AND "Leaving" has consequences.  What those consequences are and how you enforce them will take some "Hard Thought" and decisions on your part. Necessary and Inevitable.

Work on the "Reward" part for now... .I may have some ideas from my R/S for the rest. (Soon)

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« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2015, 12:20:36 PM »

If you aren't willing to leave the relationship, then saying something like I won't tolerate the hot/cold is kind of pointless. Your actions have shown repeatedly that you will accept the hot/cold.

A better question might be: How can I respond/react to the hot/cold?

Some things to think about:

-This is an established pattern with her. You do something that she doesn't like so she goes cold and ignores you. How do you respond now? What do you do? Think? Feel? Do you feel rejected? Do you feel disrespected?

-When she goes cold and ignores you, how long does that usually last?

-Have you ever not been phased by it? What do you think it would take for you to get to a place where you can take her actions with a grain of salt?

-What is the value behind your desire to put a stop to the hot/cold stuff? Is there a value that you can clearly articulate? I have found that it can be difficult to set a boundary if you are not willing to leave the relationship all together.

The hot/cold stuff is annoying and painful but it isn't a deal breaker. Would that be a correct statement?

When you take her back, how does that usually go? Do you jump back in with both feet or do you proceed with caution?
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CastleofGlass
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« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2015, 12:24:56 PM »

I'm saying I can't think of a healthy way to respond because my value/boundary is that I'm not ok with the repetitive hot-cold (to put it lightly)

DT-What I get out of this statement above is you are not ok with her dysregulations. The "repetitive hot-cold" is one of the common themes in a pwBPD. The better way to approach this is you have to just make certain boundaries on some of the common ways she reacts when dysregulated. You can't really throw a blanket statement boundary because that is too much of an undertaking for her to learn all at once. Make a personal list of things she dysregulates about and how she reacts to them. Examples could be:



  • Not following me when I need a mental time out


  • Not using profanity towards me


  • No insults or using personal things you know about me as weapons


Think about these things and go little by little. Unfortunately, BPD is not a mountain you can climb with one step.
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DiamondTide

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« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2015, 01:13:40 PM »

If you aren't willing to leave the relationship, then saying something like I won't tolerate the hot/cold is kind of pointless. Your actions have shown repeatedly that you will accept the hot/cold.

A better question might be: How can I respond/react to the hot/cold?

That's literally what I've been saying, my actions show I accept it, but I don't know how else to deal with it. So I wanted help in how to respond to it. I really love & appreciate everyone's input, I'm just starting to feel a little like no one seems to know what I'm saying, I just figured this was the not-leaving forum so I thought it would make sense. And my friends keep telling me I'm being emotionally abused. Thanks so much for breaking it down:


Some things to think about:

-This is an established pattern with her. You do something that she doesn't like so she goes cold and ignores you. How do you respond now? What do you do? Think? Feel? Do you feel rejected? Do you feel disrespected?

-I don't do anything I'm aware of to make her do it, she'll always say it was "fear, feeling trapped, and not deserving me". But at the TIME of breaking up, she's cold and says she "isn't scared, just doesn't care about me", but always comes back to say she was "crazy" and didn't mean it, along with the feeling trapped explanations, rinse and repeat. I feel totally disrespected and baffled. I do understand BPD behavior, but she does it so cruelly and callously in comparison to the "let's get married" stuff that I feel treated like garbage. I respond by getting confused and asking heaps of questions (her answers don't make sense) but respect that she needs space so kind of just go "fine. I don't understand, but you do this over and over, so I'll just leave you to it".[/quote]
-When she goes cold and ignores you, how long does that usually last?

It varies immensely; there was a 3 month break where she seemed like a totally different, hateful, cold person, sometimes the breaks have been shorter, only a week or so.

-Have you ever not been phased by it? What do you think it would take for you to get to a place where you can take her actions with a grain of salt?

I wasn't phased by it when we'd had an argument and taken a sort of day or two space, but I get scared when it's these huge out-of-nowhere "I suddenly feel different and don't love you" times because I never know if they could be permanent, if one will be the final time.

-What is the value behind your desire to put a stop to the hot/cold stuff? Is there a value that you can clearly articulate? I have found that it can be difficult to set a boundary if you are not willing to leave the relationship all together.

I don't mind breaks, everyone needs their space, especially BPD back-and-forth feelings, reuires space to be alone sometimes. It's the quality of never knowing if it's the final time, because it's been such a pattern, and every time she comes back she makes all these "let's get married, I love you forever" things that I hate being on edge all the time and confused as to how she truly feels - because let's face it, I don't think even she knows half the time how she's feeling.

The hot/cold stuff is annoying and painful but it isn't a deal breaker. Would that be a correct statement?

Yeah. I mean, I hear what you're all saying, but if the only way I can approach this is by having a dealbreaker than I'll leave her if she keeps doing it, I'm not going to do that, so I dunno what to say. I appreciate that there may not be much anyone can say either if this is the case. I just figured there would be other ways around it.

When you take her back, how does that usually go? Do you jump back in with both feet or do you proceed with caution?

Always lots of caution, but it's so difficult to not be swept up in the intensity of how much she claims to love me as she genuinely means it with the marriage thing, she was looking at rings and even told her family. Every time she comes back, I say I have to be careful, and that I can't deal with it all again - of course, my actions say otherwise, and thus I'm stuck in this hole I've dug myself.
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DiamondTide

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« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2015, 01:24:19 PM »

She will feel "comfortable" and "Safe" doing it again and again... .until she doesn't.  "Learning" is 2 parts repetition, 1 part reward, and 1 part "consequences".  

She will not stay with you because leaving hurts your feelings... .(Pipe dream). She will stay because "staying" feels safe to her, AND "Leaving" has consequences.  What those consequences are and how you enforce them will take some "Hard Thought" and decisions on your part. Necessary and Inevitable.

Work on the "Reward" part for now... .I may have some ideas from my R/S for the rest. (Soon)

Sorry, didn't see this, thanks this helps, I need to think of some consequences and I know that's something I have to do alone, but if there are any even remote examples of consequences I'd appreciate them.
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DiamondTide

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« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2015, 01:40:53 PM »

I just want to add, I don't mean to seem stubborn with the refusing to leave thing, but I don't want to make a boundary that I'm not 100% certain I can stay strong on and carry through with.
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« Reply #13 on: June 19, 2015, 01:57:30 PM »

-I don't do anything I'm aware of to make her do it, she'll always say it was "fear, feeling trapped, and not deserving me". But at the TIME of breaking up, she's cold and says she "isn't scared, just doesn't care about me", but always comes back to say she was "crazy" and didn't mean it, along with the feeling trapped explanations, rinse and repeat. I feel totally disrespected and baffled. I do understand BPD behavior, but she does it so cruelly and callously in comparison to the "let's get married" stuff that I feel treated like garbage. I respond by getting confused and asking heaps of questions (her answers don't make sense) but respect that she needs space so kind of just go "fine. I don't understand, but you do this over and over, so I'll just leave you to it".

I wasn't asking what you did to cause it. It is quite likely that you didn't do anything wrong. You were being you and she interpreted it as some kind of personal attack/encroachment and felt the need to run away from you.

What kinds of questions do you ask?

Excerpt
I wasn't phased by it when we'd had an argument and taken a sort of day or two space, but I get scared when it's these huge out-of-nowhere "I suddenly feel different and don't love you" times because I never know if they could be permanent, if one will be the final time.

I know that fear. I have felt it on several occasions. I will never forget one of the times that my husband started talking about divorce and I got panicked and told a friend. My husband played the divorce card and the suicide card quite a bit there for a while. It was scary and painful. When I told my friend, my friend said, "Why are you upset?"

Me: (boohoohoo) My husband says he wants a divorce, blah, blah, blah.

Friend: He isn't going to divorce you.

Me: What do you mean? How do you know that?

I don't remember the specifics of the rest of the conversation but it was something along the lines of calling my attention to the fact that this was a pattern and that this was my husband's way of avoiding any kind of discussion of any real issue. If I would try to discuss something that was difficult to talk about, my husband would go into that mode and push my buttons. I would panick and freak out and push his buttons back or I would drop all of my concerns and tell myself that things weren't that bad.

I was more concerned about the relationship than I was about myself. I know that doesn't make an ounce of sense. In order to stay in the relationship and find peace, I had to get myself to a place where I was okay with the idea of losing the relationship. My husband's behavior wasn't a deal breaker for me.

The behavior pretty much stopped when he said he wanted a divorce and I told him, "Okay, then lets sit down and talk about how we are going to divide things up and what we are going to do about the kids." I started talking about bills and specifics. He got upset and said, "I can see that you have been thinking about this a lot." I responded, "No, I haven't been thinking about it. You said you wanted a divorce. If that is what you want to do, then we need to figure out how to do it. I am not going to fight with you about this." And, I was as calm as the day is long.

Excerpt
I don't mind breaks, everyone needs their space, especially BPD back-and-forth feelings, reuires space to be alone sometimes. It's the quality of never knowing if it's the final time, because it's been such a pattern, and every time she comes back she makes all these "let's get married, I love you forever" things that I hate being on edge all the time and confused as to how she truly feels - because let's face it, I don't think even she knows half the time how she's feeling.

Would it be accurate to say that you could handle the break if you knew that she was going to come back? Whether it is 3 days or 3 months, you could handle it if you weren't afraid of her being gone forever. If that is the case, then what can YOU do to address that fear? Why is the thought of her being gone for good so scary to you?

Excerpt
Yeah. I mean, I hear what you're all saying, but if the only way I can approach this is by having a dealbreaker than I'll leave her if she keeps doing it, I'm not going to do that, so I dunno what to say. I appreciate that there may not be much anyone can say either if this is the case. I just figured there would be other ways around it.

I know what you are getting at. I have been in that place before. If it isn't a deal breaker, you can still find ways to deal with it. It just might not involve approaches that require her to necessarily change her behavior. In an ideal world, the fact that you tell her that what she is doing is bothersome would be enough to get her to stop. This is BPD land so that might not apply.

Excerpt
Always lots of caution, but it's so difficult to not be swept up in the intensity of how much she claims to love me as she genuinely means it with the marriage thing, she was looking at rings and even told her family. Every time she comes back, I say I have to be careful, and that I can't deal with it all again - of course, my actions say otherwise, and thus I'm stuck in this hole I've dug myself.

Ah, this might be an area that you can work on. If she comes back and sucks you in with intensity, then the key might be finding ways to NOT get sucked into the intensity. For example, you might want to look at the patterns of things when things are "normal" versus how they are when things are cold. When she comes back, do you maintain the same amount of contact as you did before? What does your idea of caution look like? Do you cut back on how often you contact her? Do you cut down on the number of dates?

I think what I am clumsily trying to communicate is that, in order to figure out how to address this, you need to go on a information gathering mission where you look at your patterns and her patterns and see where you can tweak things and introduce subtle changes to better protect yourself. That might involve changing how YOU view things. That might involve taking active measures to dial things back when you reconnect. It sounds like there might be a thresh hold that, when crossed, she runs away. If you keep the contact from reaching that thresh hold by not getting so re-enmeshed so quickly, that might slow down the running away.
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« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2015, 01:58:46 PM »

I just want to add, I don't mean to seem stubborn with the refusing to leave thing, but I don't want to make a boundary that I'm not 100% certain I can stay strong on and carry through with.

Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

I didn't take it as stubborn. I took it as you being very realistic and very self aware. A boundary absolutely will not work if you cannot follow through. If you try to do something and then don't follow through, then you are essentially shooting yourself in the foot.
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DiamondTide

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« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2015, 02:57:24 PM »

Thanks so much, this is all extremely helpful and I'm starting to get a bearing on things.

What kinds of questions do you ask?

Things like what happened, why does she suddenly feel this way, did she get scared again, how does she feel, why did she suddenly change her mind, does she see this is a pattern (she said she does), why did she say she loves me so much. Questions I know aren't very productive when dealing with BPD but at the time I'm always blindsided and sort of going 'what the hell happened?'. I noticed I also tend to try to remind her of things she said when stuff was good, and ask her if she really meant them, she always says she did. It's very surreal. I'll sit there with her saying, almost monotone voice, "I don't love you now, but yes, when I said last night you'll always be my soulmate, of course that's true." Sometimes it feels like she's speaking in riddles she wants me to interpret, but I'm sure it's just as confusing for her.

this was my husband's way of avoiding any kind of discussion of any real issue

This really struck a chord because it always seems to follow something similar. Often, it will be following progress. For instance she'll be getting better and she'll want to make plans, such as treatment (she's diagnosed but doesn't stick to therapy), I'll say "ok, we'll need to discuss ___", or I try to do things in a mature way, and a pulling away phase will quickly follow. Sort of like hiding under a table until the real, adult world goes away. Or she'll initiate something like the idea of us moving in together, but when I take hold of the subject as she offers it, suddenly it makes her run. She's told me before she's terrified of any kind of expectations of her as it means she feels she'll fail. ANY kind of focus on things that need addressing, good or bad, will precede a pushing phase.

The behavior pretty much stopped when he said he wanted a divorce and I told him, "Okay, then lets sit down and talk about how we are going to divide things up and what we are going to do about the kids." I started talking about bills and specifics. He got upset and said, "I can see that you have been thinking about this a lot." I responded, "No, I haven't been thinking about it. You said you wanted a divorce. If that is what you want to do, then we need to figure out how to do it. I am not going to fight with you about this." And, I was as calm as the day is long.

The most improvement I ever saw in how she treats me was when I actively told her I want to not speak to her for a week because she was hurling insults at me. Previously, I was always the one to break the silences first. This time, I didn't, and was very surprised when she called me first, suddenly very adoring. However she also often says she "feels such guilt and shame that she can't face approaching me" after these episodes, and says she "convinces herself I hate her and find her repulsive", so I often worry if I say "ok, let's break up then" it won't so much shock her into rethinking things as it will make her self-defeat even more. It's confusing - she constantly tells me she's scared it feels like I don't want her, yet she's the one that often seems to not want me.

Would it be accurate to say that you could handle the break if you knew that she was going to come back? Whether it is 3 days or 3 months, you could handle it if you weren't afraid of her being gone forever. If that is the case, then what can YOU do to address that fear? Why is the thought of her being gone for good so scary to you?

I will think carefully about this.

Ah, this might be an area that you can work on. If she comes back and sucks you in with intensity, then the key might be finding ways to NOT get sucked into the intensity. For example, you might want to look at the patterns of things when things are "normal" versus how they are when things are cold. When she comes back, do you maintain the same amount of contact as you did before? What does your idea of caution look like? Do you cut back on how often you contact her? Do you cut down on the number of dates?

Yeah you're right, I need to look back over things and gather information on the things I've been doing every time, seeing what I can do to not let the intensity build quite so quickly, and to see what patterns there are to the times she goes cold. Thanks, you've been so helpful, I'll come back soon after I have a clearer picture for myself now you've pointed out the things I need to look at.
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« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2015, 03:11:46 PM »

Things like what happened, why does she suddenly feel this way, did she get scared again, how does she feel, why did she suddenly change her mind, does she see this is a pattern (she said she does), why did she say she loves me so much. Questions I know aren't very productive when dealing with BPD but at the time I'm always blindsided and sort of going 'what the hell happened?'. I noticed I also tend to try to remind her of things she said when stuff was good, and ask her if she really meant them, she always says she did. It's very surreal. I'll sit there with her saying, almost monotone voice, "I don't love you now, but yes, when I said last night you'll always be my soulmate, of course that's true." Sometimes it feels like she's speaking in riddles she wants me to interpret, but I'm sure it's just as confusing for her.

I know you want to think about some of the other stuff. I wanted to pull this out and comment on this specifically. Like you, I was very, very confused by my husband when I found this site.

One day he told me, "you just don't trip my trigger any more" and then the next day he was being all loving. In the period of two weeks, we went from working on being just friends living together to raise our kids to him love bombing me and telling me that I am the only one he wants, blah, blah, blah. It makes no sense. Yes, it is hurts and is confusing but I have stopped trying to make sense out of it.

When I started posting here, I shared something similar to what you are sharing. It was pointing out to me that they tend to equate feeling with facts. If she is having feelings that aren't loving, then the fact is "I don't love you." If you are doing something that makes her feel loved, then she is over the moon in love with you. That is a hard pill to swallow. And, it makes it difficult to navigate the waters because me being mad is taken as "you hate me". Yes, I get mad at him. Heck, I might even hate him from time to time. Those are fleeting feelings. The fact of the matter is that I have chosen him as a husband and he is the father of our 4 kids. It is a choice that I make on a daily basis. Sometimes, I have good feelings about him and sometimes I have bad feelings about him. Feelings change. If a person sees feelings as fact then their reality is going to change and it will cause lots of confusion for anybody trying to figure it out.
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« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2015, 03:32:09 PM »

yeah, that's where I find it difficult to know what to do because honestly, sometimes the thing that breaks these episodes is me extending affection towards her and assuring her I do still love her. It sounds weird, but sometimes after SHE breaks up with me, I'll find out she thought I hated HER, so when she sees signs I still want her, she will become loving again. Almost like a test to see how much I love her.

Other times, like the one I mentioned, I will not want to talk to her, and my distancing will make her come running. It's very hard to know which is best, because if she needs reassurance, I would just give her that, but she rarely communicates that's what she needed until afterwards. I also feel like doing that all the time is another way I kept accepting and enforcing the cycle.
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« Reply #18 on: June 19, 2015, 04:18:18 PM »

Ok... .I'm back.   Looks like VOC covered all the bases.  Nice!

Couple of things:

yeah, that's where I find it difficult to know what to do because honestly, sometimes the thing that breaks these episodes is me extending affection towards her and assuring her I do still love her. It sounds weird, but sometimes after SHE breaks up with me, I'll find out she thought I hated HER, so when she sees signs I still want her, she will become loving again. Almost like a test to see how much I love her.

This is the nature of the disorder. They "feel" you don't love them so they "run" to protect themselves from the hurt of loosing you... (Sounds F'ed up but thats the way it is).  YOU need to:

A. Show them you love them... . (Sometimes a lot). To help them not "feel" you don't.

B. Like vortex said... .when they do "feel" you don't love them (and start the "PUSH" phase) Let them know you want to give them what they want because you love them... .Kinda like "If you love them... .set them free".  They will start to think about what it is they are actually doing and realize it's up to them to stay.

A Quote from my wife. Circa 2009: "I want a divorce because when I say "I want a divorce" it doesn't bother you anymore"

Boundary: Asking me for a Divorce when you don't really mean it is not allowed.

Enforcement:  I act like she just asked me to "Pass the salt".  

The lack of my reaction no longer gave her what she really needed... .which was a reassurance I wasn't going to leave HER. I would show her in other ways I wasn't going to leave. So she learned not to do it.

There are many ways to enforce a boundary besides "the ultimate" pulling the "eject" lever.

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« Reply #19 on: June 21, 2015, 04:09:04 AM »

Hey guys, thanks Ooohm for the reply, you've been awesome.

I've now sort of gotten confused though, while I was away thinking stuff through.

I re-read lessons, I thought about stuff presented here. Then since we're currently on a 'break' again where I'd become exasperated and said I'd be away the next few days, I started thinking... ."she's really hurting, that's the explanation every time she pushes away... .if she's scared, she'll be feeling terrible, and my saying I need space will make her feel abandoned and worsen the situation... .she'll be feeling guilty about how she's acted... .my coldness and emotional unavailability, while I thought was what she wanted, may actually be making this worse"

So now I'm confused - do I extend affection to make her feel better? Have I allowed her BPD to mask the fact that she does very hurtful things and I always end up feeling sorry for her about them? After her saying she hates me and wants to break up, if I go to her and reassure her like every other time does that just make that behaviour ok again?

I guess what I'm saying is my very strong instinct right now is to just reach out and tell her I love her, especially after going over the painful BPD thoughts that drive these behaviors. What she does hurts me, but the only resolution ever seems to be to reassure her I love her and reach out first. Is this just guilt from enforcing boundaries when I'm not used to doing so?

She'll be feeling SO alone right now but... it was her choice. Sometimes after these things we'll get back together and it'll turn out she thought it was MY choice to break up. It never is... . 
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« Reply #20 on: June 21, 2015, 04:20:40 AM »

also, I mention the lessons because explanations of BPD everywhere, from the web to the books I've read, is that they're doing everything they do because they're hurting, and when we take away our love and support in defense against ourselves and for our own needs, they see us as bad and hate us and bad habits worsen as defense against abandonment. Which is right, which is why I'm feeling like I really just want to reach out to her. BPD worsens in stress, which I probably am not helping right now for her by reacting to yet another breakup with my own distancing.
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vortex of confusion
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« Reply #21 on: June 21, 2015, 06:50:09 AM »

Whether or not you reach out is up to you. . .

It IS very confusing to discuss some of this stuff because it is difficult to explain something that doesn't easily lend itself to explanation.

First off, if your partner did not have BPD, what would you do? If you took your partner out of the equation and asked yourself: What do I want? How do I feel? Why are you trying to read your partner's mind in order to make a decision?

If you feel like you have had enough space and are ready to try to reconnect, then reach out and reconnect. If you are still madder than hell and don't think that you can talk without being a jerk, then stay away until you feel like you can reach out and be nice without getting defensive. Make your decision based on YOU!

All of the BPD resources explain the behavior. The explanation is not meant to be a guide book to tell you how to fix them or take care of them. It is meant to give you an understanding or some insight to understand things that don't seem to make sense at all.

You are so focused on your partner's hurt that you aren't considering YOUR hurt and what YOU need to do to get in a better place. Being compassionate towards your partner is a good thing. Being compassionate and understanding towards your partner does not mean that you put yourself and your feelings aside and give their feelings MORE consideration that your own. It isn't selfish to take care of yourself and take some space so that you can go back to the relationship more level headed and more balanced. If you go back before you are ready, it might contribute to more conflict and more confusion because you will get sucked back in and the crazy cycle will start over.

If you want to stop enabling and accepting bad behavior, you have to get yourself in a better head space. You can't get yourself in a better head space if you continually run to your partner and try to fix them or the situation.
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DiamondTide

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« Reply #22 on: June 21, 2015, 07:09:26 AM »

That's very good advice, but I do feel you're being a little aggressive about it. I appreciate that it comes from a place of concern and wanting to help me, and I take it to heart, I just think it could be phrased a little better. I'm not trying to read her mind, I'm trying to act in a way that won't hurt my partner while also staying true to myself.

I think it's important to remember that being a compassionate person and caring about other's feelings isn't necessarily a self-defeating trait to have, and considering her happiness doesn't mean I'm excluding my own. I am not trying to 'fix' her; I'm saying if someone is in a lot of pain and sufferring, it does have to be taken into consideration in what we do.

In explaining the behaviour, surely the purpose of the resources is to help you understand where it's coming from, and why else would we be trying to understand where it comes from if not to make things easier to tackle and to know how best to react? I'm not focussed on her at the exclusion of myself, I'm just not going to completely ignore her pain when it's what's driving the issues. You have to take into account to a certain extent the other person, that's how ANY relationship works. The reason I'm sorting out this issue IS for my own benefit and my own wellbeing. My own oxygen mask before anyone else's, that kinda thing.

I do appreciate all the help you've given me, and I'm taking it all in, but please stop repeating that I'm trying to fix her, when that's not how I've taken any of the advice at all and is not what I'm trying to do.
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vortex of confusion
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« Reply #23 on: June 21, 2015, 09:32:03 AM »

That's very good advice, but I do feel you're being a little aggressive about it. I appreciate that it comes from a place of concern and wanting to help me, and I take it to heart, I just think it could be phrased a little better. I'm not trying to read her mind, I'm trying to act in a way that won't hurt my partner while also staying true to myself.

 

Please re-read what you wrote here. I feel like you are saying that you aren't going to listen to me because I didn't say it the right way. I can't make anybody listen to anything that I say. I am sharing my experiences based on what I have been through with my husband of 17 years. If what I say doesn't apply to your situation, you can ignore it or you can give more information about the situation.

Your initial question was "How do I break the cycle of accepting/enabling bad behavior?"

The long and short of it is to stop caring so much about how your partner is feeling. I know it sounds mean. It isn't mean. It is realistic. 

Excerpt
I think it's important to remember that being a compassionate person and caring about other's feelings isn't necessarily a self-defeating trait to have, and considering her happiness doesn't mean I'm excluding my own. I am not trying to 'fix' her; I'm saying if someone is in a lot of pain and sufferring, it does have to be taken into consideration in what we do.

Now I am confused.

Do you feel like you taking her back all of the time is self defeating for her or for you?

As I read your posts in this discussion, most of what I am seeing/hearing is you talking about her and her behavior and what she is doing.

How has being compassionate and caring with her worked for you up to this point? If what you have been doing worked, then you might not be here.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

I am really not trying to be mean or aggressive. I am trying to do for you what people did for me when I got here. I didn't grow by having people pat me on the head and tell me that I was right and that I just needed to be more caring and compassionate. I will admit that I was very confused and angry when people told me that I needed to be LESS caring and compassionate towards my husband.

And I would love to be able to explain how mad I would get when people would tell me that I was trying to fix my husband.

My favorite is/was, "I don't want to fix him. I just want him to stop being an azzhole." 

Excerpt
In explaining the behaviour, surely the purpose of the resources is to help you understand where it's coming from, and why else would we be trying to understand where it comes from if not to make things easier to tackle and to know how best to react?

Hmmm. . .I think I have a slightly different take on it. I think my understanding has changed and grown over time. Yes, it is to understand where it is coming from. At the same time, I think the resources are there as a way to say this is what it is and this is how it works. I don't think I have read a single resource that tells the partner to walk on eggshells. Trying to plan your reactions IS kind of like walking on eggshells. The resources that I have read tell me NOT to react and to worry about ME. I think I have mastered the art of giving my partner a lot of consideration. I have mastered the art of forgiving my partner. Since you have taken her back and forgiven her so many times, it sounds like you have mastered the forgiving stuff too.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

Have you read the lesson on "Understanding Your Role in the relationship"? https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=56206.msg913188#msg913188

Excerpt
I do appreciate all the help you've given me, and I'm taking it all in, but please stop repeating that I'm trying to fix her, when that's not how I've taken any of the advice at all and is not what I'm trying to do.

I will try but am not going to make any promises.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

Do you think it would be helpful for you to think about why it bugs you so much to have somebody say that you are trying to fix her? Whenever I have a strong reaction to something, I try to figure out why I am having such a strong reaction to it.

 
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DiamondTide

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« Reply #24 on: June 21, 2015, 10:22:11 AM »

Please re-read what you wrote here. I feel like you are saying that you aren't going to listen to me because I didn't say it the right way. I can't make anybody listen to anything that I say. I am sharing my experiences based on what I have been through with my husband of 17 years. If what I say doesn't apply to your situation, you can ignore it or you can give more information about the situation.

Not at all, I was saying I am listening to you as I find your advice super helpful, but I just am taken aback by the aggressiveness of it all a little. You gave awesome insight, it just turned a bit derogatory so I was asking for a little more friendliness as I felt uncomfortable. It's also confusing for you to say I'm not going to listen to you, then say I should ignore you. I guess overall I'm just getting a bit confused. It may also be that text is very difficult to convey the right tone in and misunderstandings can arise from that, so it may be that I just read your post as more unfriendly than it was intended.

Your initial question was "How do I break the cycle of accepting/enabling bad behavior?"

The long and short of it is to stop caring so much about how your partner is feeling. I know it sounds mean. It isn't mean. It is realistic.  

I don't think that's mean at all, I do get where you're coming from. Often my stance is just to shrug my shoulders and say "I just don't care right now" which can be good. But initially you said my actions show I am willing to put up with the cycle (which I agree is the problem) so I should change it, and now you're saying I should just do what I feel, but that's what I've been doing all along, which hasn't been working.


Do you feel like you taking her back all of the time is self defeating for her or for you?

As I read your posts in this discussion, most of what I am seeing/hearing is you talking about her and her behavior and what she is doing.

How has being compassionate and caring with her worked for you up to this point? If what you have been doing worked, then you might not be here.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

I don't feel any of it is self-defeating, I got the impression you thought me caring about how she feels was self-defeating, I think I may have miscommunicated here.

I talk about her behavior and what she is doing because... .I wanted insight and help into how to deal with it. I didn't realize my talking about it would be met with this kind of reaction but I do understand where you're coming from.

I think maybe part of it might be that I've already spent a great deal of time addressing my own issues in this before coming here - I checked myself against things such as defining my worth or my emotions/feelings by someone else, or taking responsibility for another's actions or feelings, and I don't remotely identify with either of those things. I am working on a great deal of stuff, including the stuff you initially mentioned about why I don't want to lose her.


I am really not trying to be mean or aggressive. I am trying to do for you what people did for me when I got here. I didn't grow by having people pat me on the head and tell me that I was right and that I just needed to be more caring and compassionate. I will admit that I was very confused and angry when people told me that I needed to be LESS caring and compassionate towards my husband.

And I would love to be able to explain how mad I would get when people would tell me that I was trying to fix my husband.

My favorite is/was, "I don't want to fix him. I just want him to stop being an azzhole."  

I never wanted anyone to pat me on the head or tell me to be more compassionate and I'm not sure where you're getting that from. I know the way I've been reacting to the actions hasn't been right, that's why I'm here. All I meant with the compassion comment was that there seems to be a little imbalance in seeing compassion toward the person with BPD as this awful thing, it feels like everyone is going a little too far the other way in an attempt to grab back a sense of self. I never said I wanted any of the things you mention, and I certainly don't expect to be able to just stop my partner from acting a certain way.

I don't think I have read a single resource that tells the partner to walk on eggshells. Trying to plan your reactions IS kind of like walking on eggshells. The resources that I have read tell me NOT to react and to worry about ME. I think I have mastered the art of giving my partner a lot of consideration. I have mastered the art of forgiving my partner. Since you have taken her back and forgiven her so many times, it sounds like you have mastered the forgiving stuff too.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

I honestly am so confused right now... .I don't think anyone is walking on eggshells? I have been very honest and blunt with my partner at all times. I appreciate hearing about your experiences, I just feel like if we're completely taking away how we handle situations from the equation... .we're missing something?

Do you think it would be helpful for you to think about why it bugs you so much to have somebody say that you are trying to fix her? Whenever I have a strong reaction to something, I try to figure out why I am having such a strong reaction to it.

It simply bugs me because you're being quite passive-aggressive. I don't feel like my life revolves around my partner and I prefer for her to have her independence. I came here because of a specific situation and not knowing quite how to react to it in the healthiest way - for BOTH of us - in order to not encourage it but at the same time not wanting to break things off altogether. It says in the lessons, one of the purposes is to

3) to learn tools and techniques to help in day to day interactions;


But honestly I'm so confused by this I'm going to step down now, I'm not sure what happened at all, if I really am the only one reading your posts as condescending and passive aggressive, then I apologize for misinterpreting.
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« Reply #25 on: June 21, 2015, 12:42:44 PM »

Your initial question was "How do I break the cycle of accepting/enabling bad behavior?"

The long and short of it is to stop caring so much about how your partner is feeling. I know it sounds mean. It isn't mean. It is realistic.  

I don't think that's mean at all, I do get where you're coming from. Often my stance is just to shrug my shoulders and say "I just don't care right now" which can be good. But initially you said my actions show I am willing to put up with the cycle (which I agree is the problem) so I should change it, and now you're saying I should just do what I feel, but that's what I've been doing all along, which hasn't been working.

OK, I think this is the heart of the issue.

For you at present, the impulse to make her feel better is what comes to mind when someone asks you what YOU want.

If we dig deeper based on your initial posts, though, in fact, what YOU want is for her to stop leaving you, pushing you away, etc.

Correct?

I was in a similar mental trap for a while and I can really understand why it feels like what YOU want is for her to be happy.  Because you care about her, sure, but you probably recognize that it is a little co-dependent to say straightforwardly that all you need to be happy is for her to be happy, because you care about her so much.  If you're like I was, you're frustrated with VOC's advice because, you're thinking, you want her to be happy so she will stop doing hurtful things to you.  It's in your self-interest for her to be happy.

That is a really tempting but ultimately unhelpful framework.  What if you try on for size that what you want is not to be left constantly?  What senior members here have done about the leaving has required a lot of self confidence and a willingness to lose the relationship.  Without those, it's a tough assignment.  But people who post here who have dealt effectively with the leaving, tend to have said to their partners: "hey, I love you, I get where this leaving impulse is coming from, I'm not bitter, and I will give this one more shot.  However, I really hate the leaving.  I don't want a r/s where we are constantly splitting and reuniting.  It fractures what's good.  So ... .if you come back, come knowing that, if you leave again, I won't be here if you change your mind."

For the people who remain on the Staying Board, this worked.  Their SOs stop leaving or threatening to leave.  For others, it doesn't work, and they end up on the Leaving Board or moving on entirely.  Some feel good about their choices, some lick their wounds and have a lot of doubt about whether what they did was right (I'm one of those).

But taking that position is acting in pursuit of what YOU want, not what she wants.  She undoubtedly prefers an arrangement where she can freak out, leave and come back indefinitely.  But that does not work well for you.  So if you act in pursuit of what YOU want, it is going to look different than what she wants.  That is not only OK, it is healthy.
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