What to do?

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Ok so the PAS has clearly ramped up to the next level, SD6 is out of control.

Screaming, name calling, throwing things and acting crazy. She is off the chain, says she hates us, wants her mom. This is out of the clear blue.

We've seen the PAS verbiage increasing in the last few weeks, but how do you handle a six year old who is overwhelmed with anger? She's not making any sense.

Won't stay in her room, no punishment will work. Now what?

I'm out of ideas, help.

[bravhart1]

Ok so the PAS has clearly ramped up to the next level, SD6 is out of control.

Screaming, name calling, throwing things and acting crazy. She is off the chain, says she hates us, wants her mom. This is out of the clear blue.

We've seen the PAS verbiage increasing in the last few weeks, but how do you handle a six year old who is overwhelmed with anger? She's not making any sense.

Won't stay in her room, no punishment will work. Now what?

I'm out of ideas, help.

[Eco]

Sorry to hear that  I imagine its very frustrating, heartbreaking and makes you feel hopeless at the same time. Is counseling an option? one that specializes in PAS

[bravhart1]

Yes, she sees a therapist weekly. Has for two years.

This is next level stuff. We won't be able to see T till Wednesday. And as it is, there really isn't any reasoning with her (SD). Wish I could say I thought one hour with T would fix it, but BPDm painted T black to kiddo months ago, while we were doing CE. Hasn't opened up since.

She is buying all BPDm is peddling.

[Eco]

It sounds like the only option is to get supervised visitation for the BPD mom and get a reunification therapist involved. 

[Panda39]

Hi bravehart1,

Below are several resources I have heard about during my time with the BPD Family that I thought you might find helpful... .

Reading suggestion (If you haven't read this already):

Divorce Poison New and Updated Edition: How to Protect Your Family from Bad-mouthing and Brainwashing

Dr. Richard A. Warshak

Welcome back Pluto - Video for kids about Parental Alienation by Dr. Richard A. Warshak:

www.warshak.com/store/wbp01-02.html

BPD Family video on Parental Alienation:

https://www.google.com/url?q=https://bpdfamily.org/2011/10/video-what-is-parental-alienation.html&sa=U&ei=1-yGVY6qH9GzyASjy4ioAQ&ved=0CAUQFjAA&client=internal-uds-cse&usg=AFQjCNHalJwval5nKKKo-oJSvZhyrvJf5Q

YouTube Video Dr. Childress about Parental Alienation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezBJ3954mKw

Are things improving at all today?  When you've got that PAS stuff going on the transitions between households can be particularly hard.  Have you had the chance to talk with SD about why she is so upset and angry?  Let her vent to you? 

Panda39

[bravhart1]

Thanks Panda,

Yes, I've got poison book, hard copy and on kindle. Have just spent last night re-reading the whole workshop on PAS here.

Sorry to say it's not better. She was angry like this last week, then seemed to snap out of it. This weekend (going to be a long week) has been different. She's very empowered. If I ask her to help me understand she just says " talk to my mom if you have a problem" she has never spoken to us like this before, she just leaves the room. We ask her to come back she turns on the tv, we remind her the rule in this house is that you ask before watching tv, she just ignores us. We shut off TV and she screams and flips out. She says how much she hates us, but not why, nothing about what's troubling her.

She only seems to want to talk about stories that mom has told her about when she was a baby, and how dad was never around and didn't love us (us being, her and her mother). Apparently mom taught her everything she knows, how to talk, walk, eat, potty train and dad was always out. None of this is true of course and she can't possibly remember stuff from infancy but she insists she does.

We suggest she go to her room and try to calm down, she runs around the house yelling we are jerks and we can't make her do anything. Last night I was beginning to think she was having a psychotic break when she suddenly shifted gears and started talking about "what's for dinner?"

When we tried to address her behaviour from before she just said I don't want to talk about it and left the room.

I am sure we need to file something in the court which we have already spoken to L about. One big concern is that if we file to ask for supervised, then mom has ample time to tell SD that we are indeed trying to take her away just as she has warned all these years and we lose her further.

Wish there was a way to get an immediate hearing, but she would need time to prepare her case right? Not sure if PAS is enough to get an exparte hearing?

[Sunfl0wer]

I have read much about PAS as it happened with my SD10-15.

I think instead of reminding her TV. Rules and such... .

It may be more effective to make your #1 priority to simply de-stress in a safe way.

Anything else SD can twist into hating you for.

Can you figure out a way to take the pressure off her and find a way to make her not be stressed?

What I mean is... .

SD had a couple of friends in the neighborhood.  While she felt she was supposed to hate us, she was not yet taught to hate the neighborhood friends.  So by me just arranging a friend to go out with, ... .I took them to the pool... .SD was able to loose focus on hating us/feeling threatened by us for a bit and enjoy normal time with a peer.  (I kept my distance... .acted like a chauffeur vs participant)

I'm afraid by the sounds of it... .any obvious efforts you guys make at this point will be confronted with MORE behaviors.

I think it may be possible to calm her... .by indirectly getting her in a "safe place" in the company of another you feel she will act herself with.  (But don't make it sound like the play date is coming from you or it too stands chance to be rejected)

Another way SD would stop focusing on her intense hatred for us was... .

We had another couple we were friends with.  That couple had three kids.  SD would "escape" from us and be normal during this time.  I believe it was because if mom asked what she was doing or where she was... .she could always say:"they dragged me out to their friends house" vs the truth which was she loved hanging out there.  So it was safe in that way too.

[Panda39]

She only seems to want to talk about stories that mom has told her about when she was a baby, and how dad was never around and didn't love us (us being, her and her mother). Apparently mom taught her everything she knows, how to talk, walk, eat, potty train and dad was always out. None of this is true of course and she can't possibly remember stuff from infancy but she insists she does.

How about casually bringing out some photo albums or home movies that show reality?

[enlighten me]

Have you thought about using logic. When your daughter accuses you of something ask her if anything you have done would support these accusations. Actions speak louder than words and this backfired for my ex wife. She told my sons that the reason she divorced me is because all I did was shout at them. My actions and her words dont match. My boys see this and they have said the only times I told them off was when she had made up things about what they had supposed to have done.

You can deny everything until your blue in the face. By making them give you facts then you get them thinking. When she realises mums words and your actions dont tally then she will start to doubt mums version.

[bravhart1]

We have been using this logic, by example. It worked for a few months. We saw a shift towards now believing moms words no matter how implausible. Even therapist mentioned it last time, said she saw SD6 trying to skirt around a truth that was too obvious and try to believe moms words which she knew were untrue.

Don't know if I'm making sense anymore? But yes, we did that and now SD will argue against any thing and if you use facts she will simply say talk to my mom (which she knows we don't do) and try to end it there.

She seems to take any questioning of logic as "you are just trying to make my mom a liar". Which we are very carefully not doing, but mom seems to have put into her head that If we try to use facts or logic, to respond the same way mom does, with changing the subject or turning it around and accusing you of doing the same thing ( like lying). All conversations now feel like talking to a disordered person.

Filed for hearing today. The blood letting has begun... .$$$$$$ :'(

[enlighten me]

That is a tough one. It sounds like an intense brain washing is going on. The good news with brainwashing is it is totally reversible and happens very quickly once removed from the source. The bad news for you is you need to get full custody.

While she is under her influence im afraid it will be a lot harder for her to see the reality.

[bravhart1]

Walked into therapists office today and said I slapped her. Then changed it to scratched her face then tried to show the mark to T, but there was none (obviously).

Then she told T that she did not want to see her any more because she "was not helpful".  Tried to walk out of the therapy appt before it was over. Other than physical restraint not sure how to handle that. She seems to want to push it to some physical level. (Which we are not willing to do in any form).

I'm just waiting for the next false accusation. She tried to say three different lies tonight at home. Two were accusations of physical harm done to her by dad, he asked her to stop kicking his chair at dinner and when she wouldn't stop he pushed her chair away six inches and she sat there for a minute, mad, then began to get croc tears saying he kicked her and she was hurt.

Later she accused him of knocking her elbow into the door jam as she left the room, she did hit her elbow, but dad was twenty feet away.

Then she ran to dad later and said I pinched her back in the freezer door?   dont even know how to do that... .

Should be a fun couple of weeks ahead.

[Panda39]

chefbruce,

My SO other went through something similar, he was accused by his ex of child abuse because he threw a phone (what is it about the phone?) into the couch (guess who he was talking to?).  Throwing the phone into the couch became, throwing the phone and shattering it (really? he's still using it today 3 years later), then it became taking the phone from the kids so they couldn't call their mom, finally morphing into he wouldn't allow the girls to leave his apartment when they wanted to leave.  I should add that mom was running a Parental Alienation Campaign so even though the kids saw something different they 'believed" moms exaggerated version of events even though she wasn't even there!

My SO was dragged into court to defend himself.  The oh so concerned uBPDmom did not even go to the hearing, the judge was told she was ill, what was she doing? Out getting a manicure with their younger daughter.  The charges were found unfounded and dropped however he too had to attend therapy for anger management.

Above is part of what we had going on, add to that the kids going through dad's things and reporting back to mom (bet she liked hearing about my love letters!), stealing his laptop and taking it to mom's (had to call the police to retrieve it and uBPDxw got carted off because she had a traffic warrant out on her - be careful what you ask for), reading dad's text messages (I left him a text once that he left his undies at my house  that got back to her - again be careful what you ask for)    This was back before temp court orders when dad only saw his kids every other weekend and Wednesday evenings.

One of the most helpful things for him was getting more time with his kids (custody flipped - mom had 3 weekends a month/dad had everything else) so the kids saw the reality and weren't being constantly brainwashed and yes it was miserable and awkward and they treated him like crap and he started therapy for some support but eventually the younger D14 started asking him questions and D18 blew up at him and things slowly progressed and discussions about things that happened started going on and still do.  I'll be honest and say it probably took about 2 years for things to get back to a trusting normal kind of place.

I guess what I'm saying is hang in there and don't give up.  I disagree with sunflower, I think the way your SD is acting out she is screaming for boundaries... .keep up your house rules. But I do like some of her ideas about giving your SD some neutral places to go spend time that takes her out of the pressured place of being in the middle of her parents.

I'm kind of glad SD showed the behavior to her therapist so the therapist saw it first hand.

I should have asked earlier what is your current custody arrangement? 

I'm glad your going back to court and I know spending the money sucks and the wheels of justice seem to move at a snails pace but what is going on with SD is emotional abuse.

Panda39

[bravhart1]

Thanks panda, we had five nights a week all last year, in march it changed to a 7day stretch to us, three with mom, two with us, two with mom then back to seven. It gives her a little more time, but it's clearly not working.

We went for CE while it was five- two and that seemed too much. We are asking for supervised.

It is going to take a long time I know. I'm trying to stay positive.

[Panda39]

Thanks panda, we had five nights a week all last year, in march it changed to a 7day stretch to us, three with mom, two with us, two with mom then back to seven. It gives her a little more time, but it's clearly not working.

We went for CE while it was five- two and that seemed too much. We are asking for supervised.

It is going to take a long time I know. I'm trying to stay positive.

Sounds like a plan.  I know all of this conflict and drama is hard but I always think of us as the alternate universe... .we give these kids a chance of living at their optimal potential without us the only option is a mentally ill mom. That's no option.

Has SD's acting out died down any?  How are you holding up?

[bravhart1]

Nothing lightened up so far, morning she was going back to mom she was very indignant and empowered.

She tried to take a bucket of spare change DH keeps on dresser as well as her own stash of piggy bank money. Said her mom needed it. Was absolutely furious about not be allowed to take it.

she's been with mom for three nights so I don't know what I'll be getting back tomorrow. My guess is that it'll either be much better (mom seeing daughter is pushed beyond limit and backs off) or that she sees it's working and it'll be much worse.

I'm trying to hold it together, I get very angry when I think of what such a young child is being put through for what seems like moms ego. I know she has a mental illness and all that, but there are times when I just think she's just a really ugly and selfish person.

DH and I had a long talk about how we can set up some new ways to handle things ( and yes, T agrees with you, keep the rules and boundaries consistent) and maybe try to find a few new ways to let SD feel that this home is a refuge.

We are going to try to keep SD from bringing mom with her in her head while she's here. I'll let you know if it works.

[bravhart1]

Hi guys

Well just an update to what's been going on. SD came back from moms the first to July, she was a mess. It wasn't pretty and I didn't think I would be able to get through it. There was a moment when I thought we were going to have to take SD back to moms for her own safety

(She was acting out in unsafe manners and threatening to run away when we were looking). Made for some uneasy sleep that night but we persevered.

The next day at daycare mom picked her up and failed to return her. We haven't seen SD since. No email, no text, no call. We notified our attorney who spoke to her attorney and he  said she was "on vacation".

SD has an appointment with T tomorrow at which time we plan to be there to retrieve her, but this is so ridiculous. We have now spent thousands of dollars to get her to abide by court orders we spent tens of thousands to get in the first place. And she seems more empowered to disregard them than ever.

I have no idea how SD will be when we get her back, but this is the longest she has been with her mother in almost two years. I'm very worried what we will be getting back.

[Turkish]

If she's failed to abide by the custody order regarding the schedule, you can call the police, no?

[bravhart1]

Yes, that's been how we have handled things in the past, but BPDm seems to WANT the police to be called. She tells SD6 that daddy and mean old bravhart are trying to put her in jail. She gains much sympathy from it every time.

Both the therapist and L agree that calling police at this point with SD so fragile would possibly be more than she could take. No one wants to traumatize a six year old any further. And we aren't all that sure mom is stable enough to handle it either without doing something rash.

We are of course filing a contempt against her along with asking judge to ask her to obey his orders ( hoping that will open his eyes to her blatant disregard) as well as asking for supervised until a "mini eval" can be done to assess how the changes made from the evaluation done in dec have made things worse, or gotten worse.

[Panda39]

All of this makes me so sad... .she's just 6  :'( 

Both the therapist and L agree that calling police at this point with SD so fragile would possibly be more than she could take. No one wants to traumatize a six year old any further. And we aren't all that sure mom is stable enough to handle it either without doing something rash.

I agree with this my SO's uBPDxw would pull this stuff too and yes we could have called the police but all that creates is drama and in our situation we felt it would be counterproductive too.

I'm glad the therapist is in on things and you have a court/CE re-eval plan, but the waiting around for the court process really sucks.  Hopefully, they will see the problems.  Can SD6's therapist testify?

Hang in there I know this is tough and hurtful and stressful and frustrating and makes you angry... .I know   but a 6 year old little girl needs you and her dad to fight for her.

Take care and keep us posted. 

Panda39

[bravhart1]

Thanks panda. This IS getting pretty trying on all of us. It's hard right now to feel strong. I think moms campaign to drive us apart and make SD hate me and cost us so much money is becoming very difficult. It's a lot to bear for someone who didn't choose to have a BPD in their life. It never ends.

[Nope]

Thanks panda. This IS getting pretty trying on all of us. It's hard right now to feel strong. I think moms campaign to drive us apart and make SD hate me and cost us so much money is becoming very difficult. It's a lot to bear for someone who didn't choose to have a BPD in their life. It never ends.

No, it never really ends. It just gets easier and then harder and then easier again. Right now you are down in the deepest pit of the hard part of the cycle. You need to find some time to relax and reconnect with your DH. That has to come first because how you handle things in your relationship is going to be the major healthy relationship model this little girl sees. Seriously, sometimes the best thing you can do for a kid is take care of you. It shows them later that they are allowed to take care of themselves, instead of believing their responsibility to their mom is their primary responsibility.

I know exactly how you feel about coming into a situation where a mentally ill person is a part of the picture. I try real hard to remember that the kids didn't ask to have a BPD mom. And my DH certainly never would have married her had he known what she is. He thought she was just immature! As a family you, your DH and that cranky little girl are all in this together. Your SD just isn't coping with it all very well. You are doing everything you can. Yes, she'll be even worse when you get her back. But this too shall pass.

From one step mom to another, enjoy the couple of days off. The BPD bio mom is likely to lose even more custody and therefore won't be watching kiddo anytime soon when this is all over. So do the things that'll help you greet kiddo with a fresh head when she does come back.

[bravhart1]

Thanks NOPE, sometimes it really is just enough to hear that I'm not alone and that there are people who understand