vacation question

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

I have my kids for vacation and the ex uBPD has created enough fear that my daughter feels the need to call her mom every night and check in.  This is new because we went away for a week the last three years for vacation and my daughter (10yo) did not feel the need to check in like she is doing now.  My kids have their own cell phones and coincedentally they don't keep in contact with me when i'm away as they do with her.   I'm having a good time with them it's just that it is new that they feel they have to "check in" with her.  My 10yo is getting more and more co-dependent and emeshed with her mom and since they have their own phones it is hard for me to control the situation.  I don't want to give them the impression that they shouldn't talk to their mom but i feel like she is intruding on our vacation or time together.  

My 24yo daughter has bought into her mom's delusions of fear about me that she doesn't want to communicate with me too much.  In fact, she posted a big loving post about her mom and how great she is this mothers day but i got no such acknowledgement and she sent me a "happy fathers day text" at the very end of the day yesterday.   I guess i should be happy that at least I got something but it feels like the "crumbs" and I have seen the manipulations control my kids attitude toward me.  

With my younger children, I am focusing on the fun that we can have but it stinks to see how as my daughter gets older and as my kids in general have entered the teenage years she gains more control over their minds instead of less.  

I do have to tell myself that my ex has a disease and that I can only do what i can do.  However, it's hard on bigger days like birthday's and fathers day not to get much love from my older kids despite loving them and always being there for them when they were growing up.  It seems like they are living their moms delusions of me rather then remembering that i was there when they were younger and have remained in their lives.  They don't appreciate that they have a father while some kids don't have a parent in their lives for one reason or another.  

[truthbeknown]

I have my kids for vacation and the ex uBPD has created enough fear that my daughter feels the need to call her mom every night and check in.  This is new because we went away for a week the last three years for vacation and my daughter (10yo) did not feel the need to check in like she is doing now.  My kids have their own cell phones and coincedentally they don't keep in contact with me when i'm away as they do with her.   I'm having a good time with them it's just that it is new that they feel they have to "check in" with her.  My 10yo is getting more and more co-dependent and emeshed with her mom and since they have their own phones it is hard for me to control the situation.  I don't want to give them the impression that they shouldn't talk to their mom but i feel like she is intruding on our vacation or time together.  

My 24yo daughter has bought into her mom's delusions of fear about me that she doesn't want to communicate with me too much.  In fact, she posted a big loving post about her mom and how great she is this mothers day but i got no such acknowledgement and she sent me a "happy fathers day text" at the very end of the day yesterday.   I guess i should be happy that at least I got something but it feels like the "crumbs" and I have seen the manipulations control my kids attitude toward me.  

With my younger children, I am focusing on the fun that we can have but it stinks to see how as my daughter gets older and as my kids in general have entered the teenage years she gains more control over their minds instead of less.  

I do have to tell myself that my ex has a disease and that I can only do what i can do.  However, it's hard on bigger days like birthday's and fathers day not to get much love from my older kids despite loving them and always being there for them when they were growing up.  It seems like they are living their moms delusions of me rather then remembering that i was there when they were younger and have remained in their lives.  They don't appreciate that they have a father while some kids don't have a parent in their lives for one reason or another.  

[whirlpoollife]

truthbeknown, I understand much of what you are going though. My kids are teens. I have the hope that as they turn into adults they see that I am not the momster xh has portrayed me as.

Xh has the right to call each kid three times a day. Last year on our vacation , he called each kid three times a day. After each phone call their mood changed to an almost depressed mood and quiet towards me.  I couldn't ask them why . I tried in different ways but it only took them further away emotionally from me. It was like xh was there with us on vacation.  

One of sessions with my counslor a couple years ago , I said that each time kids would visit xinlaw grandma, she would put a photo book in the kids hands. The photos were of just xh's family... .no extended family.

So my counslor said well then you do the same. Not to brainwash kids away from the other parent and their family but to keep up with what they are doing which is self centering to his family as their only family.  

Counslor said for me to take many photos, put them in photo book and have it sitting out and show the kids the photos often .

Besides photo books I made photo frames of kids and myself from vacation and put it where they see it everyday .

Possibly something to do with younger kids, is after vacation is to put together a scrap book pages. They are easy to do, box stores sell the supplies. Turn it into an art project of cutting out paper and paste and stickers.  Those pages are also framable.  

We shouldn't have to work on everyday to keep our kids from pulling away us but sadly we have to.  

[Sunfl0wer]

I too had felt uBPDmom was with us on vacation, spying via txts... .asking every detail of our time... .inserting herself.

We have a rule...   No phones at the table.

I wish dad would have also insisted... .  No phones on vacation.  Or only phones at the hotel after the activities.  Or at least some phone free times for all.  But he felt held hostage to the anxiety and attacks from his ex that would ensue.

I was at the point that there was no point to a vacation... .unless it could be at a national park that had no reception.  Or a vacation with just myself!

[truthbeknown]

this is the first time that this has happened that they are having to call her every night to "check in" .  To me that means she has instilled fear that being with dad is not safe.  Also, her health has not been great lately and my son was telling me yesterday that "mom is very stressed. She has to come home from work everyday and she is too tired to clean."  I said, well most adults do work 9-5 so that is the only time to clean up or do things around the house.  He said, "yeah but it is too much for mom, she is too tired and people aren't helping out enough around the house."    I shared with him that sometimes people are just stressed and there is nothing we can do about it.  I explained to him that i work 2 jobs and still come home and have to tidy up myself etc or do dishes etc or else they won't get done.

What's happening is she is playing the victim for the kids to get their sympathy.  She used to do this with me and I would offer to help do whatever it was she was stressed about.  She would refute my efforts and then still walk around depressed and stressed.  Right now, she is basically "hoarding" and using "too tired" as an excuse for the place being a mess.  However, my son is reflecting back the opposite.  "she's tired because she works so much and the place is a mess!"   She has him convinced that she has no responsibility in the equation; that all of her problems are because of others, the schedule or me.  

He's pretty sensible except when it comes to his mom.   He's definately getting "parentified" by her- feeling the need to take care of her because things are so tough for her.  

On a side note, my daughter is exhibiting signs of BPD as well.  She is the most loving kid as long as she is getting her way.  But yesterday we went to an excursion and she got to ride roller coasters and other rides but when I didn't give her the answer she wanted in regard to a purchase she went ballistic on me.  She started yelling at me and telling me i was yelling at her and angry with her.  She was so angry that i couldn't talk with her.  I literally had to sit down with my son and try to wait until she calmed down. She seems to convert a perception of "no" (even if i don't say the word to equate meaning anger.) So she provides the double bind that if you say "no" to her that means you don't like her, are angry at her or just plain "mean".  This doesn't happen all the time but once she gets attached to something she wants and expects it, I'm in for trouble.   I do walk on eggshells when she asks for things.

 After 15 minutes of not talking with her and waiting out the storm, she still was angry at me and asked if I was going to purchase the thing that she wanted.  I said, "i think we're going to have to consider that for another time because we need to go right now."  She got even more angry because she felt like i was deceiving her and refused to come with me.  She wipped her phone out and started to call somebody.  I thought she was going to call her mom so i took the phone away.  She started trying to grab it out of my pocket compulsively and kept yelling at me in public to give it back.  At one point she started yelling at me that i was not her dad as she was trying to grab her phone.  I said that i would give it back when we got to the car.  She refused to come.   So I first warned her that if she wouldn't calm down or if she wouldn't come with me I would have to call the security guard over for help.  She told me that she hated me.   I remained calm and told her that I don't want to have to do that but she is so angry that i am getting scared.  

After several minutes of trying to get her to agree to come with me unsuccessfully and her continuing to try to grab the phone out of my pocket, I asked my son to get help.  When he came back she told him that she hated him too.   At this point, realizing that i was not bluffing she reluctantly started to follow me after yelling at me some more.  I did have to speak to the security guard and I told him that my daughter suffers from anxiety attacks and sometimes those are directed at me.  Since we were at a public place and she would not follow me out to the car, I have been instructed by her counselor that if her behavior got out of hand in a public place to call for help and have her sedated.  The guard asked me if I thought that would be necessary and at this point she was agreeing to follow me back to the car.  As angry as she was she realized i wasn't bluffing.

BTW, what i told the security guard was advise from her former counsler who we had seen 4-5 years ago.  However, this was the worst "melt down" i have experienced with her since that time.  My son says she has these meltdowns for their mom too and that even though it's not as often when it happens he feels the episodes are worse.  

How about that for fun on vacation?  It was like she completely shifted into a different personality or side of her personality.  Later after the car ride home and her settling down she returned to the sweet girl I know!    I mentioned nothing about it but felt like i had just been in a war.   Before bed she came to say goodnight and she apologized (this still throws me because her mom never apologizes and i thought BPD people usually don't apologize).  I asked her if she remembered anything from what when on. She said, "not much, just certain parts and it's very unclear.  I don't know why i act like that daddy but i'm sorry."  

I told her that it scared me and I want to help her and I told her that i loved her.   She then went off to bed but called her mom to say goodnight.  Her conversation was short and she didn't tell her what happened- just the good parts.  I know my son will tell his mom when they  go home about her meltdown.  Sometimes i get worried that she'll manipulate this (ex) to make it my fault but i know i can't control what she does.  

I think that if they lived with me full time I could get her the help that she needs away from her disordered mom.  Unfortunately, we're all stuck having to deal with this and i think my daughter is learning the BPD behavior from my ex's family.

My kids treat my extended family like they treat me when they are not with me- like we don't exist.  My mom wonders why they don't respond to her bday cards etc and doesn't get that they live in a disordered home.   Regardless, it is sad that this brainwashing is affecting my children so much.  

Wish me luck for the rest of the week!  oh as far as keeping phones away from them- it's hard because we use them to keep in contact when I go out with them so i can't just take them away when they arrive.  

[bravhart1]

This sounds very much like the behavior we are seeing out of SD6 lately. Not getting her way equates to major meltdown hateful screaming accusing us of not loving or caring for her enough. She sounds and seems just like BPDm when she does it. She just up and stops doesn't want to mention or talk about it. Wants to go back to acting like she has done nothing wrong. It's scary.

[Swiggle]

Not sure if this will be helpful but the book "The Explosive Child" might be worth reading. Truthbeknown, when I was reading your post about how she exploded when she even senses "no" in terms of something she wants and how she returns to herself and apologizes it reminded me of this book. I read it a few months ago because my son on a mild level has ODD. His therapist said that the issues with the divorce of his dad and I, along with lots of other changes probably amplified his defiance and made it worse. The book was so helpful in helping me understand how they are thinking at those moments and strategies to help.

www.bipr.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Explosive-Child-Prgram-2.pdf

you can read a bit about it here. I think I remember the author using vapor lock (or something like that) when kids like this don't get what they want. They get so frustrated that it is hard for them to function causing an explosion (much like the one your daughter had). I hope you find this helpful!

[ForeverDad]

I don't know if it would qualify as a typical PD Extinction Burst, perhaps it's an extreme version of a child's boundary pushing?  I've heard of the Terrible Two's but for me it was the 3's and 4's that were worse.  Look at it this way, she probably did it with you because she felt safe enough to flame out under your care, knowing you wouldn't overreact?

Later you can always emphasize "I don't approve of what you did but I do always love you" and repeat it over time for continuing validation.  Eventually she may grasp that you disapprove of the behaviors, not her.

Minors generally aren't diagnosed with a PD since they may display traits of them as they grow, it's a tough learning experience for all.  So for now just ponder how much of it you can attribute the the fleas of being in close proximity to a dysfunctional parent for a large portion of her life.

[truthbeknown]

swiggle:

I have read that book in the past and I think the author refers to the situation as "an emotional wheelchair" -  and gives an analogy that it's like a handicap person trying to get up a wheelchair.   It's been awhile since i read that so i may have to revisit that.  It has been so long since i have had to deal with one of these episodes that i'm a little "rusty" per se.   Interestingly enough, according to that book it goes against most conventional parenting thoughts or philosophies that we think we should try.  Mostly, I remember it teaches that it is okay to "give in" to demands every once in awhile to avoid these explosions.  I supposed i could have bought the item she wanted and that would have diffused the situation.  It's just that i give in so much to my ex all the time perhaps I had my own triggers to "giving in" to demands from my 10yo.  And the weight of this is overwhelming at times.  Regardless, thank you for the info and reminder to me that there are some non conventional ways of dealing with this.   What's really sad is that i have training in holistic medicine and could give her remedies like homeopathics etc that would help her but they have lost things i have given in the past and when they go back to mom's they don't want help anymore then she wants help.   The double binds continue.  Even good solutions don't work under their mom's territory/environment.

[truthbeknown]

Sunflower:

I know what you mean.  I am living in another state due to a long set of circumstance but recently i was considering taking a job to move back if it were offered.  However, after going through this vacation I do remember how much power my ex has over people.  An ex gf asked me once, "why do you let her control you?".   I was upset that she didn't understand when she made that statement but truthfully until one has lived with or around a person like this or dealt with the fallout of leaving the unhealthy situation, they cannot understand why they control (in this case by using the kids as weapons.)   

Last night we went to see Jurrasic World and in that movie there is a point where the Raptors switch their Allegiance from their trainer to the new dinosaur that has escaped.  The new dinosaur knows their language and can communicate with them. In addition, the raptors are afraid of the bigger dinosaur so they look at it as the alpha.   I think there are healthy alpha's and unhealthy alphas.  My ex, I believe, will always be the "alpha" to my kids because she is dominant and wants to dominate them.  They are probably also afraid of losing her love more then mine so that is a factor.

However, when the unhealthy Alpha turns the pack against the other parent, it is a scary and unsafe place to be. 

Here are some examples:

I pay for my kids cell phones but i literally feel like i have to beg them to call me when they are with her but they call her everyday when they are here and tell her every detail about what i do with them or have done for them.  I fell emotionally "beat up" from the rejection they deal me even though i know intellectually what is going on- it still hurts!

Also, during this vacation, i'm dealing with car problems. The transmission on my current vehicle is about to go out.  I am forced to ask for help from my Mother because i'm basically broke and can't afford to fix it on my own or trade it because i'm under water on my current vehicle.  I manage what little money i have fairly well but I have no discretionary money for emergencies.  She agreed to help me but throws alot of shaming my way in return for it (longer story).   We were thinking about two options. 1. replacing the transmission and 2.) looking into whether i could trade the car on my own and get another one. 

Here's the rub: well two actually.  My mother won't co-sign because she can't separate me from my life with my exwife.   She views me as just as much disordered or a problem as my ex or at least treats me that way.  She is afraid to co-sign with me even though i have not missed a car payment in my adult life.   Regardless, of her perspective, even if I was able to qualify for a new vehicle, my ex would view that as coming into extra money and possibly push or take me back to court to get more child support.   The double binds are never ending it seems.

Therefore, i feel afraid of living closer to my exwife because she use my younger   kids as spies and the older ones as weapons against me. That's the control she has over me.  It forces me to be more guarded and I'm on edge alot with my kids because i know they will tell her everything we do.  I guess it's harder because I have been under such financial strain since the divorce. 

It's difficult to think about living closer to the war zone.  Either way or either choice is a "no win" choice.  Staying out here might be better for me but i don't get to see them as much and she gets to manipulate them.  Moving closer means i get to see them more but she spies on me more and i don't have a life or any privacy in my life. 

I have another post entitled, "tired of the emotional abuse" and this vacation proves to me that my ex is like the tyrannical dinosaur in the movie we just watched.  There is no reasoning with her just like there was no reasoning with the dinosaur in the movie.    I know I am reflecting my pain but this is one of the only places where i can speak of it and others can understand.  Otherwise, conventional thoughts are: "why are you letting her control you"