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GeorgeTheDifferent

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« on: June 23, 2015, 08:22:33 AM »

My uBPDw consequently refuses therapy. She's perfectly well and even if not, God is her doctor and I should turn to Him too.

Trying to show her how her unstability affects our kids doesn't help.

Our 14yo daughter is falling into anorexia

But new idea has recently struck me.

I was thinking for a while if I could become her therapist. It's obviously tricky. She's intelligent and can easily sense any trickery. So it challenges my integrity, patience, to the extremes.

Well, I started off with shifting our conversations from our kids to her relationship with her mom. Up to now, she's in denial and wouldn't let herself think that her childhood was any less than perfect. But during 20 years we know each other, many things have surfaced, really far from perfect.

Today we had an email exchange she started and I was trying to turn her attention to a couple of situations from her childhood, adolescence and the day before our wedding, when her mom was trying to convince her I am not a man for her.

I'm waiting for her lightbulb moment like I had a couple of years ago. I was then depressed, thinking about suicide and leaving my wife. We went to P and after short conversation he bluntly told that: "You were abandoned by your parents and now you're abandoning your family". I would never, ever consider I was "abandoned". Tears started pouring off my face like rain. That was the first day of my journey to recovery.

I'm trying to achieve that with my wife now... .

Will keep you updated.

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married21years
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« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2015, 08:39:33 AM »

no you cannot be her therapist

its a trap!


dont do it!
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GeorgeTheDifferent

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« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2015, 09:12:26 AM »

Why?

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married21years
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« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2015, 09:20:32 AM »

you are too close, this is the trap we all fall in we can save her

you are not objective enough for one!

you just need to fix you research and then realize how to put boundaries in place

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EaglesJuju
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« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2015, 09:21:17 AM »

Honestly, taking the role of her therapist is not going to help. You cannot fix or change her behavior or thoughts, it is up to her to make those changes.

PwBPD have pervasive patterns of behavior that are hardwired into their ways of perceiving and thinking. It takes a long time to work through distorted thinking and maladaptive behaviors. Therapy is best left to professionals.

Also, placing yourself in the role of a therapist can cause excessive stress, anger, frustration, and responsibility.

Why do you think that being that being her therapist is going to help?  Why does she refuse seeing treatment?
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"In order to take control of our lives and accomplish something of lasting value, sooner or later we need to Believe. We simply need to believe in the power that is within us, and use it." -Benjamin Hoff
GeorgeTheDifferent

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« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2015, 09:57:49 AM »

Yeah, I know that. Yet still, why do I think I can do that?

1) I did a lot of research (mainly linked from this site),

2) I discovered my problem (co-dependency),

3) I live 1,500 km away from my wife,

4) I can feel good progress with myself, maintain my boundaries, have rebuilt some psychological and financial resources,

5) I am not THAT close with my wife anymore, I can consider being happy without her.

The main thing here is, I noticed any talking about her behaviour (apart from when she crossed my boundaries) is useless. When she listens is when it's about her and her feelings (obvious, isn't it? :-) So I decided not to focus on other people's feelings any more. This is my main point.

Why do I want to go further?

1) Our children suffer.

2) She doesn't want to seek treatment, apart from seeing family T, which I found is just waste of time. So she won't be in any professional treatment anytime soon anyway.

3) I agree with Alice Miller (Drama of gifted child) that without revisiting our childhood feelings, therapy won't really progress. I persevered with that myself and "Get me out of here" confirms this approach. I noticed, not many T's are convinced, at least from the few we tried so far in Poland. There is no one in our town who ever offers DBT.

Thanks for your thoughts so far Smiling (click to insert in post)

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takingandsending
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« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2015, 04:17:03 PM »

Hi George.

You articulated your points really well. And maybe, with the physical distance between the two of you, it really does afford you more of an opportunity to play a different role. Knowing that you are prone to codependency, just be sure that you are being honest with yourself, how you are feeling, and whether or not you are being true to your values/boundaries. Whether we want to or not, we are all in some way playing the role of our partners' therapist. We are actively trying to understand their world and how to live within and without it.

I'd be interested in how it goes for you. Keep posting!
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Stalwart
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« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2015, 04:32:41 PM »

Hey George:

I'm not quite sure of the relationship. It sounds as though you aren't actually with your wife but trying to work with her for the sake of the children and her well-being.

It's admirable that you would want to help her. Let me give you a bit of my learning over the past nearly four years. I've read every mainstream book on living in a BPD situation - every book at Chapter that can be ordered for people that have this disorder - studies every clinical report and testing available to the public, completed two clinician handbooks for these disorders along with the accompanying workbooks and spent untold hours online talking to and reading accounts from people who suffer with this as well as these supporter sites.

Honestly, George I wouldn't even consider being my own wife's therapist. I can tell you apart from professional help I sought a couple of years ago I do not badly at being my own therapist - but I would never enter that world of my wife's.

There's two reasons George: one; Even for all the research and education I don't feel I have the experience to do it well, that takes a specialized person, a professional. Two: It's just far too close to home. My wife would resent it. She honestly, totally understands her diagnosis and her actions of the past and present she's been involved in as a result of this disorder, but she doesn't want to live there every minute of her life. She isn't just her illness. It's enough to carry the burden and try to go forward better without having it become her entire life. For my part I don't want it to become our entire marriage and relationship either.

It's really great that you have an awareness George but it really is difficult for someone with this illness to stand up and even think about facing the fact their reality isn't right - to them it is. Even a trained therapist after diagnosis will never bring up the words Borderline Personality Disorder in treatment, they'll refer to the patients feelings of challenges and difficulties.

It's always been their world and their thinking. To accept the illness you really have to slam right into a wall of self-accountability and for her that would mean having to face all the remorse, regrets and ugliness that's come with her lifetime struggling to be accepted. Personally I can't imagine myself stepping over that threshold and into that place knowing just how desperately your wife probably struggles on a constant basis to hide from her self-abuse of disliking herself and real dark thoughts of herself. That must be a really difficult place to fixate on. Denial is a necessary thing when you consider what it is to face yourself and the darkest parts of you, especially when you're mindset doesn't really center around " I wish I was never born" but more likely falls into: "I should never have been born." Two real different levels of self-loathing.

It's just not a good path to think that you can change her, or anyone else George. You've seen the light bulb and pulled the cord and the light came on. That's a real powerful thing, but I can't imagine forcing a light bulb into her face. You might just find when you pull the cord it breaks and then where are you?

You talk to her about tangible things, incidents from the past, present in an objective manner and expect recourse with rational answers. Telling her you think she has BPD is paramount in her thinking you're attacking her - accusing and attacking her thinking she is "mentally retarded". It's got to be about discussing and letting her discuss her feelings of challenges and difficulties - not mental illness.

It's not that you can't help her George, that's possible to do. Help her by promoting conversations about her feelings from different times in her past - not specific incidents. Don't judge, don't rush in to rescue. Bottom line it's not about your opinions, it has to be about her slow and steady recognitions. It has to be done with your heart - it just can't be done with your head. It's about opening a channel of trust so she can trust opening up to you. Listening, managing a course of questions about her past, validating her emotional feelings and supporting her when she talks (if you can get her to talk) builds that trust.

Hey there might come a time in the future to introduce her to BPD again, but it has to be done with kid's gloves and baby steps and most importantly it has to be done with your heart, understanding and gaining trust.

It's impossible to open up the DSM5 to Axis 2 disorders and slam it into her face and expect her to be able to read it. She has to come to a point of 'wanting' to that herself; for herself.

This isn't a criticism at all of what you're doing or trying to accomplish George - you know your situation better than I ever could. It's just food for thought my friend about a different angle to accomplish the same goal.

I really wish you luck with this George because doing nothing will accomplish nothing and I hope it takes you to where you want to be.


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Stalwart
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« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2015, 04:53:50 PM »

Just wanted to add this George:

I first took an online DBT course and then completed one through community learning at our University here. It really did help to better understand the approach to accomplishing changes in your wife's thinking where small windows of opportunity might come up to help her steer herself better. Really valuable courses.
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maxsterling
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« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2015, 06:20:53 PM »

Let's tweak your idea a bit.

First, you aren't a trained therapist.  And your relationship is too close.  Trying to act as her "therapist" will fail.

BUT!  I think you are getting at something else - no being her therapist, but changing the way you interact with her.  You don't want to act as her therapist, but it may help to act *like* a therapist.  That means doing more active listening and validating, rather than giving her direct advice or opinions. 

I've thought about this too when I am listening to how my therapists interact with me.  My therapist keep a calm, even voice, listen to what I have to say, don't interrupt, validate my feelings, help me solve my own problems rather than push advice on me.  If you can take that approach with your wife, I think it could help things.

But just make sure you stop short of thinking that you can "fix" her in any way, because you can't. 

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vortex of confusion
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« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2015, 06:23:55 PM »

I wanted to offer you some words of warning and share some of my experiences with you.

Back in 2003, some stuff happened and my husband went to a 12 step group. He came home and said, "I am not like those guys. I never did anything as bad as them." It was a sex addiction group. Anyway, I felt really bad for him. I did a bunch of research and he and I put our heads together and I decided that I could be his therapist, his accountability person, and whatever he needed me to be.

I have to say that I did pretty well for about 10 years. In 2013, I buckled and feel like I went a bit nuts myself. During that 10 years, I listened to him. I coddled him. If he would complain about something, I would listen and then I would help him find ways to solve the problem. I would suggest books and articles. I did it all. I was really strong in the beginning. I would research and research and research. We would talk a lot about our childhoods and all sorts of stuff. I would disguise some things as trying to be a better parent.

The bottom line is that I wasn't as strong as I thought I was. It took me ten years to get to my breaking point. I wouldn't recommend anybody trying to act in the place of a therapist. There were too many things that I had to listen to that I shouldn't have had to listen to because they were painful to hear. He could tell me all about his feelings and what was going on with him, but I didn't have that same luxury. Because I was trying to act as a therapist, I tried to be very careful about what I shared and how I shared it. That kind of stuff really takes a toll on a person. And, it reached a point where he would get very defensive. Once they get defensive, it becomes impossible to communicate with them no matter how "nice" you are. And, it increases your risk of being painted black. I love no longer being in the position of worrying about what my husband is thinking and feeling and doing. I can ask him, "How was your day?" without wondering if I need to prompt him for more information. If there is something that I can't handle, I can ask him to talk to his sponsor or therapist.
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maxsterling
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« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2015, 06:41:40 PM »

In response to what VOC said about 12-step groups:  They are not a replacement for therapy, either.  But pwBPD often use them as such.  I know that in the case of my wife, and plenty of people other there.  12-step groups have their place, but I've seen my wife go through the black/white cycles with them, too. 
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GeorgeTheDifferent

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« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2015, 07:35:51 AM »

Thank you all for sharing your thoughts!

I'm still digesting them as I didn't have much time lately -- trying to take care of myself

@Stalwart: thank you for pointing out that it doesn't make sense to see pwBPD only through her problem. That was one of the first lessons actually, I learnt when it all started. It didn't help when I tried to talk to her about her 'problem'. Now I always treat her like grown-up, regardless of what kind of behaviour I'm actually expecting. I don't have much time now to explain that, but this is what many of you draw newcomers' attention to: start from yourself. It works magic!

I would even say, knowing my wife may have BPD was 20%, knowing I am co-dependent was 80% of any small success I have had so far.

As for my mental resources you described, @VOC. I'm developing kind of monitoring system for myself. For example: I used to spend late hours thinking about other people's problems. HOURS of such intense thinking that I couldn't sleep till 3 or 4 am! You can only imagine how productive I was the next day... .Not anymore Smiling (click to insert in post) I try to remind myself from time to time: "Who are you thinking about right now? If it's not you -- is it going to help anyone? Do you have resources to help that person?" And if the answer is "no" -- I switch to thinking about i.e. my new small business venture I just started or the film I'd watch next.

I'm feeling A LOT better now and -- surprise! Looks like my office mates seek my company more than ever... .

See ya later!

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