Well she did it again

[livednlearned]

In my experience, those children who are not in contact with their parent(s) really struggle the most.

Same in my situation. As painful as their relationship was, I think my son would've been better off in contact with his dad than no contact.

Terminating visitation did not solve the core grief. In some ways, it made it go underground, and that triggered a depression that is in many ways harder to treat.  :'( :'( :'(

[GaGrl]

I am anxious about this topic this week. Our 14 year old granddaughter is finally spending time with her bio father, and it's been a rocky 14 years. He hasn't paid child support, even at times quitting a job when Georgia Child Support Enforcement caught up to him. Now, after never having her for more than a 2 hour visit to the park and ice cream parlor, he has a teen for two weeks.  Again... .anxiety. Yet, she needs her father in her life, limited though the time, and his ability to parent, may be.

[Panda39]

Hi Dreamgirl 

In therapy, I learned an important term when it comes to relationships: "Unmet expectations".

I share this with you because it's been important to me when it comes to learning how to not only help my children (step and bio alike) but in how to help myself when it comes to having a parent who caused me a lot of pain. (Yeah, I'm a Coping member too) Accepting your parent in all their glory can be the most freeing experience. It allows you to let go of expectations in a way where you're left room to love the person they are and not the person you wished they could be. Accept that their "best" may never be what you actually deserve (or want).

Mom was destined to fail here. BPD moms really struggle in this gig. One of the more valuable excerpts I've read about the manipulation surrounding a pwBPD was in Kreger's book: "just because you feel manipulated, does not mean it was the intent to manipulate."

I agree in this situation, I don't think my SO's uBPDxw is intending to hurt her daughter when she does this stuff.  I actually saw an email she sent to the woman that D14 was staying with where she actually said she honestly thought camp would be paid for.  Now I'm not sure if she just thought camp would give D14 a free ride, if she thought someone else would pay or if she was delusional but she believed camp was paid for. 

In other situations though she clearly manipulates she just had a knee replacement surgery that she has been talking about for at least a year.  She conveniently had this surgery 1 week before she is set to appear and plead in her felony court case.  Now she has complications too (who knows if they're real) so the court date was moved out a month.  When she has to face hard things she hides behind health issues or literally hides in the hospital.

I say all of this because I just feel you're really on the right track when you suggest a $50 or $100 or $200 limit to how mom can help out. It avoids the "unmet expectations" that break our hearts the way they do.

This is what I would like to see... .Radical acceptance on the part of the the girls about who their mother is and her issues.  Both girls learning to set boundaries to protect themselves and within those guidelines having the best relationship they can with their mom.

I know this to be a good approach because at 52 years old that's how I approach my own mom.  She is not BPD but she is very controlling, she isn't very sensitive, and she can be critical and invalidating.  I beat myself up for years trying to be who I thought she wanted me to be, following all the rules I thought she wanted me to follow, and when I didn't meet the expectations I thought she had for me.  I now accept that she is who she is and her opinions are just that... .her opinions.  We are not very close but I can spend time with her now without getting hurt or upset.

I also wonder when you start talking about speaker phone conversations and SD "going off" with Dad cheering her on. Therapeutically, these would often be considered alienating tactics (even though mom is certainly worthy of being called out on her behavior). It's an important role that a parent can have to try and foster the relationship with the other parent in the best way possible. Sometimes that involves a therapist or a third party who is less emotionally involved. It's important that we allow a lot of room for them to figure this stuff out. Not see the disappointment in our faces. It really needs to be between a mother and a daughter.

 

Dad wasn't "cheering her on" but was probably passively approving.  Something to be more conscious of, but also remember he had just gotten his daughter home after her being awol 1000+ miles away for a week. 

 

Is your SD14 punishing mom by not talking to her?

I think that may have been what she had in mind initially because she was mad and very disappointed. Apparently  she has been texting with her mom sporadically.  So she is what I would define as low contact at this time.

In my experience, those children who are not in contact with their parent(s) really struggle the most. Whether it be the choice of the parent or the choice of the child. There is so much pain in those situations. I've witnessed it as the child who didn't speak to my father for 10 years and as the mother of a child whose father was absent until he was a teenager. I think it's a helpful tool (no contact) when both parties need a break, but with a plan to move forward in a relationship that has healthy boundaries and reasonable expectations.  

I agree it's not easy for either of the girls.  D14 seems to bounce back and still tries to create some kind of relationship with her mom.  D18 is the stuffer (I can relate I was too) so she stuffs and has cut herself off from her mom... .just hearing her mom's voice is so painful it makes her cry.  I think D18 needs her mother to make amends for what she did regarding college for there to be any relationship between the two of them.  I get that but I doubt it will ever happen.  I think D18 needs to stop stuffing her feelings and express them to begin to deal with them. Restarting therapy would be good too but she is busy... .busy... .busy with school and volunteer work trying to get her education back on track (and maybe trying to forget about her problems... .I did tell you she was a stuffer?).  Dad keeps nudging on the therapy though.

So here we are trying to live our lives the best we can with all the twists and turn of BPD.   

Panda39

[Panda39]

Hi Gagrl 

I am anxious about this topic this week. Our 14 year old granddaughter is finally spending time with her bio father, and it's been a rocky 14 years. He hasn't paid child support, even at times quitting a job when Georgia Child Support Enforcement caught up to him. Now, after never having her for more than a 2 hour visit to the park and ice cream parlor, he has a teen for two weeks.  Again... .anxiety. Yet, she needs her father in her life, limited though the time, and his ability to parent, may be.

I think the right thing is happening here, your granddaughter should spend some time with her dad.  I can't guarantee things will be perfect, but I have been on these boards for over a year and although we all have fears about our kids and grandkids the majority of the time things go better than we fear.  Even if you feel nervous about her dad have faith in GD14.  My SO's D14 eventually figured out what was going on in her situation and called her dad.  I'm sure your GD14 has a good head on her shoulders too.

Hang in there I know these situations can be nerve wracking 

[GaGrl]

Thanks! I'm not sure where the GD14's common sense came from, but she is gifted with Emotional Intelligence.  She knew early on that something was "off" with her grandmother, my DH's ex (uNPD/BPD). I trust this girl's intuition.

[DreamGirl]

She conveniently had this surgery 1 week before she is set to appear and plead in her felony court case.  Now she has complications too (who knows if they're real) so the court date was moved out a month.  When she has to face hard things she hides behind health issues or literally hides in the hospital.

Gosh. Can't say I wouldn't do the same thing. I might postpone facing criminal charges myself.  

Sounds like your SD18 might have picked on this same coping skill --- of hiding from hard things.  

Does she purposely hurt the girls? Or is it inadvertent?

Dad wasn't "cheering her on" but was probably passively approving.  Something to be more conscious of, but also remember he had just gotten his daughter home after her being awol 1000+ miles away for a week.

I bet he was mad. I'd be livid with my exH in this situation. It'd be hard not to unleash the Kraken.

The thing is that in Parental Alienation... .

Mom is alienating herself (like livednlearned's exH). That happens and is beyond our control. What we want to be super careful of is not to have any part of it whatsoever.  

Listening in on conversations is a no-no. It also gets everyone caught up on the Drama Triangle (click here for more) where SD sees herself as the Victim, Mom as the Persecutor, and Dad as the Rescuer. It's not a healthy dynamic in families.

We don't want to invalidate the kids in anyway (by agreeing with the other parent) but going beyond "I'm sorry this happened" is crossing boundaries. For me, I would never allow any of my children to "chew out" an adult. No matter who it was. That's a parenting value for me though. If I say it's OK to yell at Dad, I give the green light to yell at me. Not everyone shares that value, so I'm not saying it was wrong to allow it. I'm saying don't alter your own values or allow bad behavior based on the other person's bad behavior.  

I say all of this because if she chooses to sever or minimize this relationship, it needs to be on her own accord. We're just too emotionally invested to not get triggered at the kind of nonsense that the other parent throws in our direction. I've had to walk away a few times not to pipe up just how wrong their mama's actions were. Or defend myself. Or defend my husband.  

So here we are trying to live our lives the best we can with all the twists and turn of BPD.  

Amen to that.

It's OK to be mad at her. Anybody would be. It's OK to move past the drama and live your life. It's OK to just take a breather. But as you've said --- stuffing it in a box, tying a ribbon around it, and placing it on the shelf doesn't make it go away. It makes far more worse actually.

My oldest stepdaughter (18) lived with us full time as well. She spent every other weekend with her mama and has grown to love her very much (from a distance). She posted a lovely attribution to her mama on Facebook about her being the source of her ability to overcome adversity.  

The two of them function really, really well on a more superficial level. Her mama is also really great when it comes to validating her when she's venting (about school, work, girls, boyfriends). SD18 also knows that is not the source to go to find grounded, mature advice. That really is OK. Her mom just can't be that person.

Again, mama meets her expectations because she knows her mom has limited skill set.

[Panda39]

She conveniently had this surgery 1 week before she is set to appear and plead in her felony court case.  Now she has complications too (who knows if they're real) so the court date was moved out a month.  When she has to face hard things she hides behind health issues or literally hides in the hospital.

Gosh. Can't say I wouldn't do the same thing. I might postpone facing criminal charges myself.  

Dreamgirl you are a smarty pants   

I have to say when she pulls this kind of stuff it really reminds me of the 15 year old me trying to not get "busted" by my parents for doing something I shouldn't have.

Unfortunately for her she was busted for some very grown up stuff.

Sounds like your SD18 might have picked on this same coping skill --- of hiding from hard things.

That is an interesting observation something didn't register with me... .more than just stuffing but avoiding too.

Does she purposely hurt the girls? Or is it inadvertent?

I think she does both. The big things like college and camp I don't think she meant to hurt them purposely, I think they were a case of her trying to impress the girls... .making all their dreams come true... .without thinking about how it would all end... .consequences.

I think the purposely hurtful kind of stuff is on a smaller scale (though no less hurtful) She likes to play "Golden Child"/"Scapegoat Child" and will flip those roles around making things even more unpredictable.  Her favorite weapon is to emotionally withdraw from the child that displeases her as punishment.

Hmmm... .the kids are doing this to her too (at least in part)... .she taught them well... .what goes around is coming around.  I will talk to dad about this especially in terms of D18.

 

Listening in on conversations is a no-no. It also gets everyone caught up on the Drama Triangle (click here for more) where SD sees herself as the Victim, Mom as the Persecutor, and Dad as the Rescuer. It's not a healthy dynamic in families.

Yep I understand the Drama Triangle just didn't see it there (see that's why I come here, sometimes it's hard to see the forest for the trees and the members here are in helicopters with a bird's eye view  )

For me, I would never allow any of my children to "chew out" an adult. No matter who it was. That's a parenting value for me though. If I say it's OK to yell at Dad, I give the green light to yell at me. Not everyone shares that value, so I'm not saying it was wrong to allow it. I'm saying don't alter your own values or allow bad behavior based on the other person's bad behavior.

D14 is a respectful young lady to both of her parents but this situation was well beyond the run of the mill BPD stuff.  I'm okay with her expressing herself in that moment, would having that conversation been better done privately, probably yes. 

 

The two of them function really, really well on a more superficial level. Her mama is also really great when it comes to validating her when she's venting (about school, work, girls, boyfriends). SD18 also knows that is not the source to go to find grounded, mature advice. That really is OK. Her mom just can't be that person.

This is exactly the kind of thing I meant when I said... .

This is what I would like to see... .Radical acceptance on the part of the the girls about who their mother is and her issues.  Both girls learning to set boundaries to protect themselves and within those guidelines having the best relationship they can with their mom.

D14 is still trying to have some kind of relationship with her mom. D18 is another story she is devastated, betrayed, angry and in debt, how do we get her to a place where she can let the emotions go?  Whether she has a relationship with mom is almost a separate issue.  She's 18 dad can't make her go to therapy.  Dad does keep encouraging her though.

Wish we could solve all this stuff tonight in one post but as Scarlett O'Hara said "after all tomorrow is another day" so we'll try some more tomorrow. 

Thanks,

Panda39

[DreamGirl]

D14 is a respectful young lady to both of her parents but this situation was well beyond the run of the mill BPD stuff.  I'm okay with her expressing herself in that moment, would having that conversation been better done privately, probably yes.

I think that's the difference really.

I agree in completely supporting her expressing herself and supporting her ability to make a decision to confront the other parent. It's OK that she hash it out with mom. Kids do that.

It's just that if someone else is standing there in support (you, her sister, a friend) it shifts the dynamic; it's almost like mom was ganged up on. If it's Dad, it's worse because there's another authority figure involved that is allowing it (it's almost like insubordination - justified or not).  When the BPDmom tries to do this in our situation, my husband will kindly tell her "thank you for the concerns, they're certainly valid" and that he'll take care of the situation with the daughter one on one.

It goes both ways. If you have an issue with one of the kiddos, you don't want mom's interjections and opinions --- especially when she's supportive of the teenager who tends to be self-serving in more ways then one.  

Nothing like mom telling you it's unfair that you took the gas card away (that you pay for) when the kid spent over the limit.  

 

D14 is still trying to have some kind of relationship with her mom. D18 is another story she is devastated, betrayed, angry and in debt, how do we get her to a place where she can let the emotions go?  Whether she has a relationship with mom is almost a separate issue.  She's 18 dad can't make her go to therapy.  :)ad does keep encouraging her though.

That age is so, so tough. They're not quite grown up but not yet a kid. They make grown up decisions with not-so-grown up skills. I guess that's how we all learn.

In my experience, a little space helps these situations the most. Time to let her feet land back on the ground and find some success in what she's doing now.  

She'll need a lot of time and space. I'd be monumentally angry too if one of my parents did what her mom did.

And you're right, we gotta take it one day at a time.

I also just want to add that I think you're a really good addition to this family, Panda39. You're helping them work through this coming from a more grounded vantage point. Which helps a lot when it comes to the whirlwind that happens when having a pwBPD in your life.

You bring balance to the force.    

[Panda39]

In my experience, a little space helps these situations the most. Time to let her feet land back on the ground and find some success in what she's doing now.

On this front we just got some very good news yesterday... .D18 was accepted into the small state school a couple hundred miles from home that she applied to!  The financial part has to be worked out but she has financial aid and a scholarship puting her much of the way there.  She is looking to do work study for the rest.  It is realistic and do-able.  Her dad and I are very proud of her.  She could have crumbled under what happen with the other college fiasco but she didn't.  She is smart, motivated and tough. 

I also just want to add that I think you're a really good addition to this family, Panda39. You're helping them work through this coming from a more grounded vantage point. Which helps a lot when it comes to the whirlwind that happens when having a pwBPD in your life.

Thanks for that.  I'm kind working behind the scenes so it's nice to ge the validation.  I know my honey appreciates me too.  I think that it helps that I've had my own baggage that helps me connect in a lot of ways and that I'm coming at it as a (somewhat) outside observer.  I think my honey and I are a pretty darn good team 

You bring balance to the force.    

The force be with you too! 

Panda39

[ForeverDad]

In his Splitting handbook Bill Eddy emphasizes the value of an experienced problem solving attorney.  That same quality - problem solving - is invaluable for all of us and D18 is living that as a Learning Experience.  Though it's been rough for her to have that debt nagging her next several years, she's learned and didn't let it stop her from finding a way to continue her education.  It's Validation for her and adding to her skill set.