Return of the horrible SIL

[Cat21]

I've posted about this on the sibling board as well, but now I could use some support from the spousal side. Long story short: my uBPDh's sister is a narcissist who controls his immediate family. She is manipulative, passive aggressive, and inauthentic. Her interference in our marriage has been a problem since the beginning.

I am now 37 weeks pregnant: I'm tired, uncomfortable, hormonal, hot, anxious, and in general, my tolerance for BS is nearing an all time low. For the most part, my h has been supportive and drama- free throughout my pregnancy AND a move into a new house. I have to give him credit- a lot could have triggered dysregulstions, but didn't. Until now.

We agreed that after the baby is born (our first), we will only entertain 1 visitor at a time (o in the case of parents, 2.) This applies to visitors who are staying with us. It's so stressful and exhausting that really, the less people studying with us for the first bit, the better. On this, we both agreed. Today, his sister called and informed him that due to her busy schedule (read: what's best for her and her utter refusal to accommodate anyone else), the only time she can come to visit/help is when her parents will be here. (My Mil and fil will be with us for 3 weeks). She did not ask me if this was ok- just my husband, over whom she had control and can easily manipulate. He told her he would check with me, but that it should be "totally fine". Well, it's not totally fine. It's not what we agreed upon, and that's what I told him. He went from 0 to 10 and started accusing me of hating his family, not wanting their support, etc. this is not the first time this has happened in regards to his sister. I tried calmly explaining that I wasn't interested in arguing, and that we'd have to work together to find a solution. He hung up on me ( called on his way home). When he got home, he gave me the silent treatment. I HATE that and it infuriates me. But, I stayed away from him and tried to focus on myself.

I was ready to go to bed, and he was reading in our room, so I asked him to go in another room. I also said something like "and when you're rest to have an actual conversation instead of ignoring me, let me know." Pregnancy hormones are no joke. He insisted that he was "grieving" because I don't want his sister here and somehow he has to come to terms with that. (Ohhhh the dramatics). I told him that I was willing to come up with a solution we could both agree on, but he wouldn't have it. Once again, he went from 4 to 10 and ended up screaming at me, calling me evil and a monster. I left the house- one of my boundaries is that I don't tolerate insults or shouting. He was completely beside himself and raging.

I know this is one big temper tantrum and I know he's not immune to the stress of having a kid. But I have HAD it with his sister's power over him and our marriage and again- in my current state, I just dont have the ability to ignore it.

How it makes me feel: like I'm second. Like our unborn child is less important than his sister's needs. Like I don't have a true partner.

Because things have been good and really are improving, this hurts and feels like "old" times. I've been working on this sister issue for a while now with my T, and just when I think there's progress, something like this happens. 

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[waverider]

Thats so hard, especially at this time.

He sounds like h eis afraid of his sister, my partner is the same with her FOO, despite all the big words about putting her foot down she simply caves and appeases. The precedent has probably been set over his entire lifetime.

He is probably angry at you because it exposes his weakness in that ares, so he needs to blame you for putting him in that position.

[Cat21]

That's exactly right, waverider. i know how hard it is for him to feel caught in the middle. But, he often puts himself there, telling his sister I've said something I haven't and vice versa. His desire for she and I to be friends overwhelms logic.

The silent treatment continues. I have plans with a friend today, so at least I'll be out of the house. Any suggestions on how to regain communication?

[Stalwart]

Hey Cat I can feel for the situation especially with it being your first and the uncertainty that comes with that.  

It's a difficult catch-22 situation and certainly one most of us can relate to from both sides of the fence. So many of us struggle so desperately to keep our partners in some kind of wanted relationship with our family members and like me, struggle to also keep my wife in some type of relationship with her own family.

For your sake I can so see the stress of thinking too many people and an assortment of different family may be difficult while you're transitioning to home with the new baby.

For your husband's sake I can also certainly see his want to not 'forsake' his relationship with his sister at a time when it really is supposed to be a celebration of a new family member together. So many times BPD folks relationships with their own family support are like mixing oil and water. It really is a special thing that he's been able to maintain contact and support.

Given her characteristics and your apparent dislike of them I can see where the conflict sets in though for you. I know for myself I have to schedule holidays under really strict parameters so I can sympathize with your sister-in-laws dilemma if that is also her situation. Wanting to be there for you, your husband and the baby though is admirable if she is using up holidays to be there .

I suppose it really comes down to the quality and intent of your house guests, whether they're there to help take the load off you or to sit down put up their feet and be catered to a Cat's resort. Having had the experience you may welcome them at the time if they are the former helpful types.  If it’s your first that’s such a big thing for family and hey it’s even bigger for you.

Big changes always seem to bring big concerns. It’s usually been my experience even for every hour of worry I put into something that so seldom it was necessary and for all the effort, I’ve missed out on fully experiencing and enjoying the moment I’m in. It really is such an important thing in both your life and your husbands, as well as extended family.

Holding a baby and someone else’s baby, is a life-changing and powerful experience Cat. It may just be that experience will improve the disposition of your sister-in-law and also your own relationship with her.

I can so understand the situation of your spouse committing or complying with his sister and the upset that relates to. There have been so many situations my spouse has ‘committed me’ to something without conferring with me and on the other hand there have also been times I’ve committed her to things without firstly  seeking approval. I really don’t think it comes from a disrespect or disregard. I really think it comes from a place where we commit our spouses because we need or want their support given different situations. To me, that’s all about the dance and ‘doing for each other’, supporting each other’s needs or wants. Actually it generally comes down to supporting each other in a loving and caring way to meet each other’s needs.

You may really welcome the extra help and support when the times comes. One thing for certain, your parents will also be there and who better to assist in ensuring the sister-in-law isn’t an issue by being there?

The one thing I do know for certain after the baby is born you’re in for the best experience of your life Cat. Look forward to that and enjoy it, knowing just how important the little person your bringing into the world will be to everyone and what awesome opportunities that makes going forward in both your life and the lives of your families. Hey, she might just end up being the best Auntie ever, stranger things have happened with people when children come into it.

None of us here are able to or should really suggest or ‘tell’ another person what they should or shouldn’t do Cat. That isn’t what I’m saying here – just food for thought on another possible direction of thinking. You know your situation far better than any of us could ever have insight to. 

However it works out Cat, congrats on the new arrival and good health to both of you.  

[GaGrl]

I have a different view, Cat.

Three extra adults in a house with new parents/new baby needing to bond as a family unit?  It's just too much.  Frankly, I think having your DH's parents for 3 weeks is too long.  It's nice to have some help, but... .3 weeks might be too much/too long.

My concern about the SIL is that BPD traits may cause her to be triggered by the baby receiving attention from her parents.

I'm not sure what the solution would be with your DH not being on the same page.  If he were, it would be entirely appropriate for him to tell his sister when and for how long she can visit, same with his parents.  It doesn't sound as if he's willing or able to do so.

Births can bring out family stress like nothing else.  My stepgrandmother, who I realized many years later was uNPD/BPD, behaved very badly at my birth -- tried to show up at the hospital and direct "Baby Comes Home From Hospital" show and in the process was quite nasty to my other grandmother.  My father handled it quite quickly and firmly, and six weeks later he had taken another job and moved his new family 200 miles away from his step-MIL.  It was the best thing he ever did for my mother, as it allowed her to have her own family without dealing with her SM's continued interference.

Do you have a marriage counselor or therapist or pastor who could provide advice and counseling very specifically on this issue, with the timeframe getting so short?

[Cat21]

Thanks, Stalwart and gagrl.

Stalwart- I haven't been nearly as detailed as I could in describing the relationship between by H and his sister. If anything, I'd love it if they DIDN'T have communication- her influence on his behavior becomes more and more apparent with each passing year. I firmly believe that his issues are a direct result of his upbringing, and since she mostly raised him, of her. The entire family is afraid of her and no one will do anything to change the dynamic. It would a blessing if they weren't so "close". Rest assured- her wanting visit and "help" is anything but; it's all about her, what's best for her, and how she can manipulate both her parents and brother. Not ideal with a new baby, or really, any time.

Gagrl- I agree 100% that this may trigger the SIL. Her behavior has become increasingly worse in the last 7 months (since finding out about our pregnancy); she even announced that she was going to try and have a third child (both of her kids are school age), got pregnant, and then lost it several weeks later. Drama central.

As for his parents staying for 3 weeks: they live on the opposite side of the country, and don't travel that often, so it's really more of a time for them to not only help, but visit with us and spend time with their new grandchild, since they don't have the luxury of doing that any time. I agree, 3 weeks is a bit much, but in the future, they'll stay for about 10 days at a time.


I do have a therapist, and we've been talking about this sister business for a while now. My T has encouraged me to speak up when something bothers me (and I do), but to try to stay out of the family drama as much as I can (and I do.) Unfortunately, now I'll have a child who is unfairly brought into this, so I have no choice but to defend myself and the baby to be. His sister has no power over me, and she knows that. However, the power she has over my H definitely effects my marriage; therein lies the problem.

[GaGrl]

You can stay out of your DH's FOO dynamics as much as possible, but you and your DH are now creating your own FOO for this baby, and you get to have a great deal of say about what that looks like.

[waverider]

Do you ever deal direct with the SIL? If she is causing you problems then it is your business and you have the right to place you boundary in front of her rather than in front of H, who in turn has weak boundaries.

Otherwise you are entering a triangulation type of drama. H will be confused as to whether he is being asked to be rescuer or prosecutor and so will fall back into roll of victim

If she already has issues with you its no big deal how she reacts.

[GaGrl]

Do you ever deal direct with the SIL? If she is causing you problems then it is your business and you have the right to place you boundary in front of her rather than in front of H, who in turn has weak boundaries.

Otherwise you are entering a triangulation type of drama. H will be confused as to whether he is being asked to be rescuer or prosecutor and so will fall back into roll of victim

If she already has issues with you its no big deal how she reacts.

Excellent point.  Look at it this way. Is the relationship with your SIL yours to own,or will you abdicate the management of the relationship to your D H (which means abdicating the control to DH, who seems weak/passive this relationship with his sister)?

[Cat21]

Do you ever deal direct with the SIL? If she is causing you problems then it is your business and you have the right to place you boundary in front of her rather than in front of H, who in turn has weak boundaries.

I have often wondered if I should just go directly to her in these situations, since I have no idea what my husband tells her. I guess my hesitance has always been related to the fact that I don't want to be involved, but obviously I am involved in this case. She never contacts me directly, but you're right- there's no reason why I can't just try to cut her off at the pass.

My husband hasn't been home for most of the day and hasn't been in touch with me at all. When he gets home, I'll try to find out if he's spoken with her, and perhaps it would just be best for me to call her myself. That way I can assure that she's getting the truth and not some altered version from my husband in an attempt to pacify her.

Yes, the relationship is mine to own. She doesn't control me and doesn't scare me.

[GaGrl]

Where do your in-law's stand in all this?  Would they be relieved that someone is setting a boundary with the SIL?

[waverider]

That way I can assure that she's getting the truth and not some altered version from my husband in an attempt to pacify her.

Yes, the relationship is mine to own. She doesn't control me and doesn't scare me.

By passing the BPD filter is often the best way of reducing drama. He might get miffed, but he's miffed anyway. Demonstrating that you are capable of it may set a precedent, which is not a bad thing.

Just don't get involved in her "version" either. You have a task to perform not a side to take.

[Cat21]

Where do your in-law's stand in all this?  Would they be relieved that someone is setting a boundary with the SIL?

My MIL and FIL are also under her control. They have no desire to change things; their stance is "Well, that's just the way she is. Just ignore it." They are very passive and often don't know the half of it.

[Cat21]

By passing the BPD filter is often the best way of reducing drama. He might get miffed, but he's miffed anyway. Demonstrating that you are capable of it may set a precedent, which is not a bad thing.

Yes, I agree. He has decided he wants to talk to me again and here is what was just said: he is not willing to tell his sister that she can't visit when she wants. He expects me to support him and just go with it. He will forever include his family to be the exception to any "ground rules" or decisions we make and, again, he expects that I will just have to accept that. According to him, it would hurt his parents to know that I don't want his sister here at the same time as them (guilt is this family's specialty), and they could never possibly understand why I would want to limit the number of visitors at a time. I have no idea if this is true- he often makes things up to try to solidify his argument or use guilt as a way to control me.

What is clear to me now is this: from now on, when it comes to traveling, visit, etc, I will communicate directly with both his sister and his parents. I'm no longer going to be put in the middle and I'm certainly not going to be told what I will have to accept. As for his insistence on his sister visiting at the same time as his parents, I don't know what do to. Is it worth me calling her? Do I just let it go? I've been put in a tough spot and the stress is not good for me at all.

[Cat21]

And now for a strange gamechanger. (this previous convo was on the phone, as he is on his way home). My husband just called back and apologized for his behavior and for this entire episode. He said, "My sister does not control us, and it just dawned on me that you and our child are the most important people- she doesn't get to ruin that for me. I am mad at her and I'm mad at myself for trying to accommodate her yet again. I also lied to you about talking to my parents. They would totally support you. I don't know why I get so wrapped up in trying to please her. You and our daughter really are the most important people to me and you are right- we need to make decisions based on what's best for us. That doesn't necessarily include my sister. I will call her tomorrow and tell her she'll have to choose a different time to visit. If she really cared about it, she'd be flexible. I am sorry again and I hope you can forgive me."

?

A complete 180 in a matter of minutes. Is this possible?

[waverider]

And now for a strange gamechanger. (this previous convo was on the phone, as he is on his way home). My husband just called back and apologized for his behavior and for this entire episode. He said, "My sister does not control us, and it just dawned on me that you and our child are the most important people- she doesn't get to ruin that for me. I am mad at her and I'm mad at myself for trying to accommodate her yet again. I also lied to you about talking to my parents. They would totally support you. I don't know why I get so wrapped up in trying to please her. You and our daughter really are the most important people to me and you are right- we need to make decisions based on what's best for us. That doesn't necessarily include my sister. I will call her tomorrow and tell her she'll have to choose a different time to visit. If she really cared about it, she'd be flexible. I am sorry again and I hope you can forgive me."

?

A complete 180 in a matter of minutes. Is this possible?

My guess is he spoke to his mum in the meantime.

You will be entering a stage where intrusive advice, and judgments, on how to be a good parent will start to arise. So setting your boundaries now is a good ground rule

[Cat21]

I'm still pregnant, and have already entered that stage! Much unsolicited advice. But I do agree about the boundaries- I intend on speaking to his parents when they are here and letting them know exactly what we need in terms of help.

When my husband finally arrived home, I told him that I was confused about his sudden change of heart. He said that he was thinking about the physical manifestation of what added stress is doing to me and the baby and suddenly "Snapped out of the fog". I am skeptical. He also went on to explain that he and his parents are not controlled by his sister, but look to her for guidance and advice in life because she's generally right about most things. However, he can see how that's not appropriate in all situations, especially if it goes against what is best for me and our child. He said that he felt angry with himself for getting so wrapped up in this unnecessarily and asked me to please help remind him him to take off the blinders when dealing with his sister in the future.

I've heard this before. Moments of clarity after arguments- they are usually fleeting. As for now, I'll take it and move on so that I can feel as relaxed and calm as possible.

[Cat21]

Another update:

I found out that my SIL is indeed available to come visit later this fall (when we originally wanted her to come), but prefers to see us when her parents are here. So, it wasn't a matter of her ONLY having that time to visit, but rather, doing what's most convenient for her. Exactly as I thought, despite my husband's painting this a different way.

My H did speak with her and told her that she'll have to visit later in the fall, because that's what works for us. Her response was "I hope you have some say in this and that you aren't letting her walk all over you. You and I have very different priorities.  I suppose I'll get over it."

There was a small part of me that thought, maybe I'm overanalyzing this and she really is just interested in helping us. But no; that is not reality and her amazing selfishness is once again confirmed.

My H seems to be fine with this decision and hasn't made any comments about her since we spoke about it yesterday. Things seem back to "normal".

[Cat21]

I thought this was over and done with- I was wrong.

Last night, over a week after my H's epiphany and apology, he brought up his sister's needs again. He started out by saying "I spoke to her, and she's fine with visiting later this fall, but I really need you to understand why it's so important to me that she be here at the beginning." He went on to say what he has said already- he feels that his entire family (his parents aren't good enough) need to be with us as soon as possible after the baby is born. He feels that what is in HIS best interest (and thereby, by his philosophy, our daughter's) is having his sister here as well as his parents. Basically, it was back to what is most convenient for his sister and her influence over him. I can only assume (based on previous arguments/experience with her) that she spoke to him recently about this and managed to manipulate him once again into doing her bidding. So, we are at a stand still again- 1.5 weeks before my due date.

I am too tired/uncomfortable/hormonal to spend any more time talking about this wit him. After more yelling and screaming (and me leaving to go for a drive again), I finally said, ":)o what you want. I'm tired of this. You know my feelings- I will not discuss this again because it's beating a dead horse. If your desire and apparent NEED to have your sister here when it's good for HER and YOU is more important than respecting the decision we made together and my well being, then so be it. The decision is yours."

I feel like his goal was to slowly wear me down, and honestly, I don't have it in me to fight this anymore. I was honest with him last night and told him that I don't like his sister, I don't like their family dynamic, and the anxiety and drama she brings to the table is a huge part of the reason I don't want her around. Of course, he didn't acknowledge my feelings or validate me at all (no surprise). So, I guess on one hand, I'm glad that I was honest and now he knows. On the other hand, that may make no difference at all. And now, I'm having trouble sleeping (again) because this bothers me.

[waverider]

This is the problem with him stuck as the intermediary between you an his sister. you have too much going on now to have to deal with this, but it may be worth making a mental note of cutting him out of the loop in the future when it comes to boundaries between you and his sisters involvement.

[Cat21]

This is the problem with him stuck as the intermediary between you an his sister. you have too much going on now to have to deal with this, but it may be worth making a mental note of cutting him out of the loop in the future when it comes to boundaries between you and his sisters involvement.

I agree, and I was actually preparing to send her an email with some alternative dates (thereby sidestepping him) when he brought this up again. After this last discussion, he seems to be OK- perhaps he was just looking for (more) validation? As I said, I have no idea if he'll actually invite his sister to come sooner or not, and at this point, I'm trying not to think about that at all.

Do you think I should still send her an email with possible futures dates to visit, or is that poking the bear?

[formflier]

 

Cat21,

Hey... .we haven't posted in a while... .I'm excited that the first one will be here soon.   I remember back about 20 years to our first one showing up... .      Good memories.

Quick thought... .I would shy away from making "too firm" plans.  Babies have a way of upsetting plans.  Figuring this stuff out for the first time... .is  fun... .stressful... .expect more revelations for yourself.  Expect your hubby to have them as well... .


So... .with that said... .can you describe to me what the visitors will be doing while visiting your house?  Do your in laws have experience with other grand children?

FF

[formflier]

 

I'm a "words" guy... .so... .I usually take things like this too far... .just so you know!   

Anyway... .I would shy away from making "plans" for after the baby comes.

I think "guidelines" that you can inform everyone of is helpful. 

"We will host one guest in our home at a time... .as they come to help us with our new child"

"mom and dad qualify as one guest"

"there will be times where I want to be alone with our baby"

"there will be times when I want to be alone and have others help with our baby... "

What is your r/s like with his mother?

FF

[Cat21]

"We will host one guest in our home at a time... .as they come to help us with our new child"

"mom and dad qualify as one guest"

"there will be times where I want to be alone with our baby"

"there will be times when I want to be alone and have others help with our baby... "

What is your r/s like with his mother?

Yes- these are exactly the guidelines we discussed (months ago) and agreed upon (almost word for word!) My parents live 1.5 hours away, so they can come down whenever we need it, but they are totally going on what we ask. For example, my mom will be at our house when we come home from the hospital, cooking and doing whatever we need for a day or two before my in-laws arrive. Then, for the next few months, she may come down every other week to clean and cook, etc. My H's parents live on the other side of the country, so we had to be more "firm" with their travel- they will be staying with us for 3 weeks. They do have other grandchildren (NPD sil has 2 kids), and they live to serve, so I do think they will be very helpful and stay out of the way in general. I get along with them well.

This business about his sister visiting at the same time as their parents was never brought up until 2 weeks ago (when she invited herself ). My H never expressed a desire to have her here at the beginning, and if he had, I would have reminded him of our "one overnight visitor at a time" rule. Then, she could have made arrangements to come after her parents left. But now here we are, a week away from my due date, and this saga drags on.

My relationship with my MIL is fine, but we don't talk on our own. There's a bit of a language barrier, and she isn't really a phone person. However, I'm sure that her main priority is doing what is best for me and the baby. The issue with my H and his FOO is that no one really communicates effectively- they all go through the SIL for permissions and plans, and I'm sure my H never told his parents about our guidelines.

So, this leaves me feeling like the one who has to enforce the boundaries, and quite frankly, I don't have the energy to do all of that! My H has been extremely helpful in preparing the house for the baby, etc, but when it comes to his family, he is treating this like it's Thanksgiving- come one, come all. I know it's harder for him to imagine what it will be like when we are figuring things out, since he isn't physically carrying the baby, but it also makes me feel like he doesn't trust my instincts- he's going with what his sister thinks. I did tell him that the other night and he said that he absolutely trusts me, but that his sister knows a lot, so he trusts her too. Once again, I feel as though I'm in second place.

[Cat21]

So... .with that said... .can you describe to me what the visitors will be doing while visiting your house? 

Visitors who are staying overnight will be helping with general household duties- cleaning, cooking, grocery shopping, laundry, etc. And, of course, having adequate time with the baby. Ideally, I don't want to have to ask anyone to do anything- I'd like them to just do it without being asked. I know my own mom won't need direction, but my in-laws might not be so forthcoming. So, I've put together a little list of things that can be done every few days, and I'm just going to leave it sitting in the kitchen as a reference. If I feel up to laundry or cooking a meal, I will. If I don't, I won't. Other than that, especially since we only really see his parents once or twice a year, we'll be visiting with them. Of course, the time we need alone with the baby (and I'll be breastfeeding, so I'll be doing that almost all day), is time that is precious for the 3 of us. I think his parents get that.