Should exBPDh come on holiday with us?

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Im in a pickle. Months ago I invited him to join us on holiday, it will be me, kids S11 and D 13, my elderly father and his elderly woman friend... .why? Well a bit of me hoped we could slowly heal things and get back together, and the kids would like having him around, and maybe me too.

But my dad needs looking after, he cant  walk well, is a bit grumpy and will like having attention, he lives alone. When I told my dad I had invited exBPDh he was not impressed, actually worried that there will be frictions and even shouting matches as in the past.

Ive just been hoping all will go ok, hoping for the best, we are going to an idyllic place and its cost me and my dad a lot of money.

But today I phoned my kids, I was at work and they at their dads house, and I heard stories of since yesterday there has been shouting, threats, silent treatment, sent to bed early and shut themselves in their rooms, against my daughter because she was walking 2 metres in front of him, against my son when he dared turn on the TV. My son was crying on the phone today, my daughter upset. I heard exBPDh come upstairs and rant and rage at my son, asked if they had been spying again and phoned me, my son said I was right to speak to mummy you cant treat me like this, he grabbed phone off my son to speak to me.  I asked him to calm down and go out of my sons room, he said "you get out of your body!" Then I got messages from my son saying he had hit him.

I start rushing back from work (an hours journey) then get messages dad has calmed down.

The phone rings and its my exs dad! This is becoming a pattern, he gets HIS father to ring me to calm things down when he is disregulating! Im afraid I didnt answer, I am soo fed up of hearing the appeasement, the "he didnt mean it, forgive him give him a chance." It creates so much fog for me when I just think ex is a pig, whether or not he can help it I dont want to hear my kids crying.

I dont want to go on holiday with him. When I tell him there will be chaos. Maybe he will threaten not to let the kids come. I cant go on like this. I dont want to see him. i dont want to move back to him, Im scared he will get worse and worse. When the kids are older they can go their own ways, if I go back how can I put up with someone who behaves like Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde. Last week he was superdad... .

[Cmjo]

Im in a pickle. Months ago I invited him to join us on holiday, it will be me, kids S11 and D 13, my elderly father and his elderly woman friend... .why? Well a bit of me hoped we could slowly heal things and get back together, and the kids would like having him around, and maybe me too.

But my dad needs looking after, he cant  walk well, is a bit grumpy and will like having attention, he lives alone. When I told my dad I had invited exBPDh he was not impressed, actually worried that there will be frictions and even shouting matches as in the past.

Ive just been hoping all will go ok, hoping for the best, we are going to an idyllic place and its cost me and my dad a lot of money.

But today I phoned my kids, I was at work and they at their dads house, and I heard stories of since yesterday there has been shouting, threats, silent treatment, sent to bed early and shut themselves in their rooms, against my daughter because she was walking 2 metres in front of him, against my son when he dared turn on the TV. My son was crying on the phone today, my daughter upset. I heard exBPDh come upstairs and rant and rage at my son, asked if they had been spying again and phoned me, my son said I was right to speak to mummy you cant treat me like this, he grabbed phone off my son to speak to me.  I asked him to calm down and go out of my sons room, he said "you get out of your body!" Then I got messages from my son saying he had hit him.

I start rushing back from work (an hours journey) then get messages dad has calmed down.

The phone rings and its my exs dad! This is becoming a pattern, he gets HIS father to ring me to calm things down when he is disregulating! Im afraid I didnt answer, I am soo fed up of hearing the appeasement, the "he didnt mean it, forgive him give him a chance." It creates so much fog for me when I just think ex is a pig, whether or not he can help it I dont want to hear my kids crying.

I dont want to go on holiday with him. When I tell him there will be chaos. Maybe he will threaten not to let the kids come. I cant go on like this. I dont want to see him. i dont want to move back to him, Im scared he will get worse and worse. When the kids are older they can go their own ways, if I go back how can I put up with someone who behaves like Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde. Last week he was superdad... .

[Cmjo]

Please help... .? Can I call it off now? Would it help if I gave the excuse of my elderly Dad and needing to look aftre him, without blaming ex for his behaviour today and for the last few years? What if ex tries to ring and apologise again today, do I have to accept that time and again? I really feel sick seeing my kids abused, I tried to stand up to it by leaving but it goes on and on, I think he is doing it cos he knows it makes me react.

[Turkish]

You could tell the truth (using the tools). Enforce a boundary. ounds like the setup for a ruined vacation. Does he actually have the legal right to forbid the kids going on vacation?

The abusive behavior towards the kids sounds concerning. Is it reportable in your jurisdiction?

[Thunderstruck]

That sounds rough. It sounds like you're in the FOG about this trip. You're afraid (fear) of what the x will do if you say don't come, and you're afraid of what the x will do if he does come. You feel obligated to let him come anyway, because you already invited him. You feel guilty telling him not to come.

I've never had a personal relationship with the BPD in my life (I'm the step mom and she's the bio mom) so I'm not much help in this. The staying or leaving board people might understand your predicament better. It sounds like you want (wanted?) a relationship with him again but without the disorder. Unfortunately the disorder is a part of who he is, so to be with him again means all the chaos and rage comes along with it. There are a lot of tools to use to be in a relationship with a BPD, but it does take a lot of patience and constant work.

I bet it's frustrating, all the empty promises of "doing better next time". It's ok to set boundaries for their behavior. The way he acted was not ok to you, and it sounds like the kids were very upset. Find what kind of boundary you'd like to enforce so it won't happen (may not happen) next time. The problem with saying "You acted like this and now I don't want you to come along on holiday" is that it will lead to projection and blaming. It doesn't really set him up to not do it again in the future.

[scraps66]

No... .No!  That doesn't sound like a vacation at all.  Violation of boundaries and you'd be way too isolated WITH HIM.

[Cmjo]

My son already said on the phone today he doesnt want his Dad to come.

I asked my daughter she said I cant tell him not to come now he will get really angry. I said its ok for me to change my mind if I Have a good reason like because I dont feel comfortable with something.

I do have to enforce a boundary, which is that if he is abusive to the kids I do not want to be around him. I know he will deny he was even abusive.

I think the thought of the holiday may be a trigger for him, as well as seeing my Dad. I know I was foolish to have thoughts about his behaving better.

Yes I will be guilty but I will be relieved and might actually enjoy it if he is not around.

Not sure which tools to use ... .does this mean I have to validate something he has done... .Empathise with him?

can I say I felt so concerned for the children when I heard what was happening today (he will deny and tell me Im inventing it or Im going mad, or Im judging him), I do not want the children to be around him when he is angry, he is unable to control his anger and so I dont want to spend my holidday with him, or shouod I say I need to dedicate the holiday to my elderly dad?

Thanks for any suggestions. Sorry its taking me so long to get out of the fog, I have a few years of it ahead (Im counting the years till the kids are old enough that I dont have to worry about the effect of his anger on them any more, they will probably choose to have nothing to do with him).

[Cmjo]

Its tricky, first I have to get the kids back from exBPDdad. My son is sending me messages saying his dad told him to say they had made peace and would stay there. It wasnt true, in fact over dinner he has been swearing and saying they have ruined his life by spying and telling tales on him to me.

I live round the corner, I would like to go and pick them up. I rang exBPDdad but he isnt picking up. My son says not to go, he is scared. They are being held hostage! This is so awful. The plan is I will go tomorrow at 8,20am, my daughter will come to work with me, my son will go to a theme park with a friend.

I want them to come and live with me, and I dont want their dad to come on holiday. I need to stick by this plan... .Ive avoided it for so long as periods of time go by when it works, and I rely on their dad to have them three days a wk so I can work!

[Turkish]

That's a tough situation when you rely on him to watch the kids.

Do you think there is anything reportable here in your jurisdiction?

About the tools, I was thinking more along the lines of asserting a boundary and holding to it. BIFF is good for written communication, but I use a verbal form of it too. That the kids don't want him to go should not be communicated by them. Your daughter is afraid of triggering him. Be mindful to not JADE.

[livednlearned]

Hi Cmjo,

I hope you're able to get the kids from their dad's home. My ex husband also feigned a "hostage" situation. After much worrying, and long talks with my therapist, DV counselors, family, and friends, N/BPDx brought S14 home right on time. I hope the same happens for you.

Boundaries are difficult to assert with someone who has BPD. Be gentle with yourself about this -- and aim for it at the same time. Unlike your ex husband, my ex did not cycle back to tenderness between rages. When I was split black, that was it. In many ways, this made it easier to assert boundaries. Your abuse cycle is much more typical, and therefore much more difficult to counter.

Do you feel that you understand BPD behaviors? Not just the rages and the external behaviors -- this is what we often focus on, because it directly impacts us. I found that learning everything I could about the reasons for the behavior helped more than I can say. It made me feel very much like the adult in the relationship, and when I could understand what was happening, I felt much less afraid. Not entirely, but enough so that I could think clearly and act with a degree of confidence.

Sometimes we have to keep learning the same thing until we're ready to really get it. This might be your opportunity, as challenging as it is. If you agree to have him join you on vacation, the next time will likely be worse.

If you need, talk through what's going on inside when you prepare to set the boundary. Or, when you feel yourself weakening your boundaries (like inviting him to join you), post here about what's going on. It's good to internalize these things. Understanding them is one thing, applying them is quite another.

We're here for you.  

LnL

[Cmjo]

My son texted that he had hit him, so I could tell the police. My ex is police himself. He would laugh it off and say it was just a smack on the bottom! Going to the police would cause a major extinction burst, I mean colossal.

How do you do BIFF saying actually I have decided i dont want you to come on this holiday because... .Which is the friendly bit? What reason should I give, his appalling behaviour or my dad needing attention, or both?

I suppose I have to tell him tomorrow when I feel the kids are temporarily safe.

I feel he is cranking up the hostility on purpose, because he knows it will end this way and he doesnt himself feel comfortable about coming, he probably is expecting me to call it off.

Then we will spend the whole holiday worrying about what drastic stunt he is going to pull.

Its been three years now I read stuff about BPD, i can see how trying to be the adult will help. But I do feel a terrible sense of loss for me and the kids, how he will end up I dont know. Thank you for your advice.

[livednlearned]

A BIFF statement might be:

Thank you for having the kids ready to go today. We have all had a challenging week and everyone could use a cooling off period. For that reason, I will take the kids on vacation and they will see you when we return on day/date.

I always started my emails to ex with his name, and always signed my own name. I felt it helped to treat him with respect, if only to model it for my son.

My ex often had big dysregulations prior to or during visits with my family. I think the shame was overwhelming for him and he inevitably acted out. My family was very accommodating and tolerant, and treated my ex better than his own family did -- this was ultimately a painful thing for him. I also think deep down n/BPDx wanted time-outs. He did not want to be part of family gatherings, and wanted to be at home. He also wanted the time-outs to be something he could blame me for. It is complicated when someone wants a thing to happen, and also wants to be angry about it.

It's really sad what you're going through Cmjo. Therapy would help him, and yet it can also be very threatening to someone who does not feel they know who they are, and has so much self-loathing. It's hard to grieve the loss of a dream, that our loved one will get help.

LnL

[Cmjo]

Yes that statement is perfect, I already wrote and it was along those lines, but I did also tell the truth saying I really was upset about the scenes that had taken place and its not acceptable to show so much anger in front of the kids, they would stay with me this week then we would go on holiday without him to get some peace. He hasnt replied and I expect he wont.

I agree the stress of two weeks with me and my Dad prokoked him into being so outrageous he wouldnt be allowed to come.

Actually I went to report it today. For the first time I walked into  a police station. A record was taken but I was told as I had not witnessed it personally I would need to talk to social services, then they could decide if to take it further to the police. I went to the police because when I went to pick them up this morning (he had gone out to go to the gym) my daughter told me the scene was awful yesterday, he had physically laid into my son and pushed her, had forced his way into their room even though they were hiding and locked the door. The  at dinner he had said they had ruiuned his life by being spies and reporting back to me.

Thanks for your advice and understanding.