SD9's idea of "conflict resolution" & source of sibling conflict

[kells76]

Hey all, thanks for your help so far on the school withdrawal issue. I'll probably post more on that later.

So last week H & I were planning with the kids for a little trip out of town. H asked them if they'd like to go for 1 or 2 nights (yeah, not ideal to have to ask them, but not sure how else to negotiate that sticky wicket. Mom generally refers scheduling questions from H to the girls. Ideas welcome... .), and while SD7 was game for 2 as usual, SD9 only wanted 1. H asked why that was what she wanted, & she started by saying it was too complicated to explain. After H expressed willingness to listen, she said that she & SD7 don't really fight at H's house, and the longer they spend with H, the more they fight when they go back to Mom's house (so, my guess is that SD9 doesn't want that to happen at Mom's? I wasn't fully clear). Anyway, H asked why SD9 thought that was the case, & SD9 said it was because when she & SD7 fight at H's house, he puts them in time out (and, note from me, talks with them individually). This, according to SD9, means she can't "express her feelings" to SD7 like she does at Mom's, and they end up "not working things out" and continuing the fight at Mom's house.

So, H asked them how we could make that different. SD9 suggested letting them work it out themselves without intervening. H said OK, let's try that, with 2 conditions -- if either of you gets nasty/cruel with each other, or if one of you asks for help, I'll intervene. This sounded like a reasonable experiment to everyone. H also let SD9 know that she didn't have to pick 2 nights to make him happy, that we'd have fun anyway.

Mini-vacation last weekend: girls have it out after rough housing in the evening. H & I hold back for a while, waiting for them to "work it out", but it's clearly not going to happen. H tries to get SD9 to understand that what her sister wanted wasn't SD's logic or proof, but empathy & understanding. SD9 was jaw-droppingly committed to being right and not seeing another POV. Also said, when H said that to her it looked like they hadn't worked it out, that that was "normal" for them and they usually didn't get resolution at Mom's house.

So... .I have to get back to work, but some quick questions:

How do H & I negotiate intervening between the kids, with this background?

How can we teach SD9 that logic isn't a weapon used to win?

How do we stay consistent with our discipline when the message from Mom is that problems at Mom's are caused by Dad's incompetence/insensitivity?

Thoughts welcome... .

[takingandsending]

Hi kells76.

It sounds like your husband and you both did a really great job talking to SD9. So, from what you said, would you characterize SD9 and SD7's conflict process as SD9 getting to vent her feelings on her sister? I.e. not much resolution, but I sure do feel better?

At age 9, children become more aware of their inner self in relation to their outer world. They start comparing more, and seeing flaws. It's a big transition, where they go from seeing their parents and friends (and themselves) as perfect to have imperfections ... .a lot of imperfections. Acceptance of this new awareness is a long process. And I see in my S9 that he uses his older sibling intelligence in non-compassionate ways to vent and take out his frustrations on my S4.

I think you both need to stick to the boundaries around communication - civil, respectful, kind speech. If that boundary is being crossed, it's time to reinforce it. There are a lot of ways to do so. Time out doesn't work with my S9. Sometimes, he requires physical separation, but it really presses his panic buttons to be isolated, even when I go to talk to him individually.

I have been trying a different method lately. I place myself between the combatants, ask for one to give his side of the story, don't let the other interrupt, listen without interrupting myself, and also don't let the son speaking their hurts to go on too long. Then, we switch to the other combatant to give his side of the story. I have absolutely zero intention in resolving their issues. I just seesaw between the two - listening, stopping one, allowing the other his turn to talk. Usually, after 2-3 chances to speak, they both feel heard and are ready to move on. It's like what your SD9 said that she wants, but it's providing adult guidance to make sure it does not become a venting/abuse session. I only do this when I hear their fight is escalating and not subsiding. It works well with boys. Not so sure for girls.

Re. the girls' mom, you can't control what she is going to say or do. But the more you are consistent and stick to what you believe in as parents (i.e. maintain your boundaries for the kids' sakes), the better it will go for them.

[kells76]

T&S, I appreciate your thoughts on this.

Yeah, it looks like SD9's method was part venting, and also part Being Right. "What did I do?" and "I didn't do anything" are common responses from her. Your input on it being at least partly developmental is helpful. I do see SD9 pretty enthralled with what's logical or what are the reasons for something, which is great, but she hasn't yet seen that logic isn't a panacea.

Yes, there doesn't seem to be much resolution. I think SD9 would only feel better by being right -- the two seem to be connected for her. It might not just be about venting, but also about... .dominating, perhaps.

I remember reading "Power & Powerlessness" by John Gaventa a few years back. Long story short, he posited that when people can't express grievances/frustration vertically (to those more powerful), they take it out horizontally (i.e. on peers). I experienced this with my siblings (don't make Mom upset, but the feelings build up to take out on each other), and I wonder if this might be part of SD9 (& SD7's) fights.

I don't want to fall in the trap, though, of blaming what happens at Dad's house on Mom's dysfunction. That is probably part of it, but I need help not stopping there, ya know? Maintaining boundaries sounds like a good part of it. Not sure if telling the kids OK, here are the boundaries, would help more than just doing the boundaries... .I worry about overempowering them by presenting stuff like that as a choice, when it oughtn't be.

And thanks also for the note on the boy/girl difference. Not sure if that will be the case for H & I with the girls, but we'll keep an eye out for different tacks to take.

Anyway, thanks for the feedback. It's been tough seeing SD9 using B/W thinking, lacking compassion, prioritizing winning instead of understanding, & being so blindly committed to being right. I get wigged out, and I think y'all know why, so hearing that part of it is likely developmental does help. If you have thoughts on when "developmental" becomes "problematic", though, or experiences on a kid moving through this phase, I would be interested in hearing about that.

[livednlearned]

I have been introducing my son to the idea that two seemingly opposite things can both be true. It's not an easy concept for many adults, much less kids. This helps with the B/W thinking, and is part of dialectical behavior therapy.

There are other things that have to happen, too, when we manage conflict in our home. Most conflicts are fairly predictable and have a pattern to them, so when stuff comes up and I feel hurt or upset or frustrated, I've learned to ask S14 to give input on how he wants to handle things. I'm impressed that he does have an innate sense of justice, despite not always being able to behave as though he does.

It sounds like your H has already done this with the girls, or at least with one D. This is connected to something else that has been important in conflicts with S14, which is to strike when the iron is cold. If I try to get S14 to resolve things in the heat of his emotions, it ends badly for both of us.

One thing I'm wondering with the girls -- they have a mom who is likely a punitive (and maybe capricious) parent. So even doing things more fairly and openly with dad, they might still be thinking he is going to punish one or the other, or at least evaluate right/wrong. Schools tend to reinforce this model. Maybe H needs to say explicitly that he is not there to punish, he is not the judge. He's there to hear how it felt for both of them, and then to try and facilitate solutions that the girls work out together. When I told S14, "I've never done this before but I want to try it" he really stepped up and felt respected.

We have to help our kids find the language to describe their emotional state -- that's the bedrock. And then we want to make it explicit that the goal is for us to feel connected to each other. This is the validation work (being heard), and it's also naming what we're going for (instead of who is right or wrong). Letting them know that this in not an adversarial court system where there is a punitive judge meting out punishments. Instead it's more like mediation where the two of them, with H's help, will work with them to come up with a solution. Then H can weigh in on whether the consequence or plan seems reasonable, or provide the consistency and boundaries while the girls test to see if they can follow their own suggestion. If (probably when) it goes off the rails, then the feedback is about how the solution is working, instead of who is right/wrong.

I had a uBPD brother growing up and the time out thing just gave him an opportunity to plan retribution. It was the most dread-filled experience, being isolated while knowing the blowback was gaining force in the next room. No one modeled how to handle conflict, and we certainly never had our feelings validated. This is a work in progress for me, too. I do find that modeling positive conflict management is time-consuming, though I'm seeing results with S14. He is internalizing some of this stuff and being preemptive about finding solutions, usually with low-conflict things.

[takingandsending]

We have to help our kids find the language to describe their emotional state -- that's the bedrock. And then we want to make it explicit that the goal is for us to feel connected to each other. This is the validation work (being heard), and it's also naming what we're going for (instead of who is right or wrong). Letting them know that this in not an adversarial court system where there is a punitive judge meting out punishments. Instead it's more like mediation where the two of them, with H's help, will work with them to come up with a solution. Then H can weigh in on whether the consequence or plan seems reasonable, or provide the consistency and boundaries while the girls test to see if they can follow their own suggestion. If (probably when) it goes off the rails, then the feedback is about how the solution is working, instead of who is right/wrong.

That is what I was trying to get at. I don't try to resolve their issue, but just mediate through listening to each of their sides. Often, once they feel heard, they can start to hear each other (usually by the third iteration), and they decide they want to do something more fun than fight each other. It is really cool when they figure out a solution themselves. I enjoy the empowerment and ease that they get to experience. I wish I was more rigorous in applying this technique more frequently. The 9 year old child is sort of right in the heart of, for the first time on a meaningful level, understanding what is right and wrong. They experience a lot of inner turmoil on this subject, so anything that can validate the need to understand or be heard for what is right in a situation or what is wrong in a situation, yet not fixate on that right or wrong as being static and immutable, really moves their development forward in a positive, reassuring way.

[ForeverDad]

So... .this is a learning experience for the girls.  Assure them that the more times they work out solutions for their conflicts, even when parents step in, the easier it will be because their skills will improve as well.  Right now it's he conflicts are huge but in time they'll be bumps in the road, still there but not so immense.

Maybe too you can get a good start with this by rewarding them with some perk or activity as they figure out how to do this.  But parents are there for a reason, parents are still needed no matter what, especially for the bigger issues, not everything is up to the kids.

The problem is whether their mother will ever support them in those skills.  Odds are, invalidation or even sabotage are more likely.

[takingandsending]

It's been tough seeing SD9 using B/W thinking, lacking compassion, prioritizing winning instead of understanding, & being so blindly committed to being right. I get wigged out, and I think y'all know why, so hearing that part of it is likely developmental does help. If you have thoughts on when "developmental" becomes "problematic", though, or experiences on a kid moving through this phase, I would be interested in hearing about that.

kells76, I realize that this is the heart of your question/concern. I am really worried about my S9 right now, too. 

Does your SD9 have a play therapist? I have been trying to locate a pre-adolescent therapist in my area that is familiar with BPD. I just had a really bad night where S9 screamed, raged, pounded on the bedroom door and jumped up and down on his bed threatening me because my uBPDw turned off the lights and enforced curfew when I was reading to him and his little brother. He scared his brother badly, and of course, my wife can't/won't deal with him. I ended up sitting in the dark bedroom with him, my back against the door so he wouldn't try to run out and scream at them anymore and let him expend it out until he could talk. I finally stroked his head and told him that what he's feeling isn't bad or wrong but that it works better to be heard when we express our feelings with our words. Times like these, I feel like I am losing him.  :'(

[kells76]

Hey Lnl,

You raise some interesting questions for me & H here:

One thing I'm wondering with the girls -- they have a mom who is likely a punitive (and maybe capricious) parent. So even doing things more fairly and openly with dad, they might still be thinking he is going to punish one or the other, or at least evaluate right/wrong.

... .

We have to help our kids find the language to describe their emotional state -- that's the bedrock. 

My perception so far is that Mom prides herself on really being emotionally mature & "with it". I think her genuine belief is that she & Stepdad have cornered the market on emotional health, talking things through, having an emotional language, & helping the kids "process" feelings. I think she would not portray herself as punitive or capricious, but I don't know if that would translate into her actually not being so. Mom may favor SD9 over SD7, and I'm wondering if that trickles over into SD9's overgenerous assessment of her own rightness in arguments. The situation may be that the kids are being told, either overtly or tacitly, that Mom is fair and really smart about these emotional things, that Mom & Stepdad are doing emotional health right. But that message would be communicated at the same time that Mom might not be treating the kids fairly, might not actually be listening to them or helping them genuinely process, and might be modeling some unhealthy behavior (i.e., badmouthing H when he’s not around). So, I’m wondering if H & I are going to confront from the kids an attitude of “You guys are saying you’re helping us process, but that’s not how Mom & Stepdad do it, and they’re right.” That would put them in a position of having to decide who is actually helping them emotionally, and I think at this point it would be easier for them to just not deal with it and go with Mom’s narrative.

Basically, an issue for H & I is not that Mom is emotionally low-functioning, where it’s easier to point out inappropriate coping/processing behaviors. The issue is more Mom’s commitment to the narrative that she & Stepdad are doing it RIGHT – and Mom has the emotional health vocabulary to make this sound very plausible -- & H is doing it WRONG. It seems really insidious to me and almost tougher to counteract than the blatant dysregulation/dysfunction. Although that is definitely hard, too (panda, I’m thinking of you…) Thoughts on that distinction?

[livednlearned]

Do you mean that the girls might try to triangulate you/H by referring to how mom does it? Meaning, if SD9 is losing an argument, she would say, "That's not how we do it at mom's. Here's how you do it right."

[kells76]

Hi ForeverDad, thanks again for your insights.

Yeah, reminding myself, and H, & the kids, that this is about learning, is going to be key. I see in Mom, & some in the kids, this idea that they’ve “arrived” and know all they need to know – hence the kids’ request to be allowed to work things out themselves. Which ended in physical stuff  

So focusing on each interaction & working-out situation as a step in a learning process will be helpful, I hope. Maybe we can relate it to sports practices – you build skills the more you practice, remember when you couldn’t do X but now you can, etc.

I have a feeling that while Mom nominally is all about these skills, her underlying agenda might be more like “I support you kids using these skills to make me feel like an emotionally competent mom” or something. So, like I told LnL, Mom has this vast emotional health vocabulary, but I think there’s a disconnect between what she says she’s doing and what she’s actually doing, and I think it’s going to be confusing to the kids as H starts actually DOING more healthy emotional processing/working out with them. I.e., Mom says that emotional processing is THIS, but you’re doing THAT and saying it’s the same thing, so clearly Mom is right. That might be something that’ll take time for the kids to work out. I don’t think it’s something where H can just say Well, Mom is wrong, and this is actually how you do it.

[kells76]

LnL, we've gotten a bit of that already, but I think H handled it well. The first time SD9 asked to just be able to "work things out on her own" with SD7, because that's what they did at Mom's, he was game (with a few ground rules). A few days later, after the long fight between the kids (that we tried to let them "work out", he asked SD9 how she & SD7 usually worked out disagreements at Mom's. She listed off a few things (something like "We express our emotions to each other, then Mom & Stepdad tell us what the root of the problem was, then I go read a book in my room". So far H is up for trying, within reason, what SD9 says she already does. Part of this is to defuse the idea (which we think comes from Mom & Stepdad) that any problems the kids have at Mom's house come from not working through things at Dad's house.

That being said, I wonder if rolling with the "Mom's way" stuff is helpful or just reinforces the idea that Mom is right. It does keep the situation from turning into a "Mom's wrong/Dad's right" scenario, but I wonder if it subtlely reinforces Mom's narrative about her having it all together emotionally... .

[kells76]

T&S, yeah, nail on the head. In a way, it’s not the fact that the kids are going through hard times and aren’t always mature about it that worries me, as that can help them learn & grow. It’s seeing the brittleness, the commitment to being right as part of an identity, the abuse of logic, that’s scary to see.

Mom has repeatedly nixed the idea of getting the kids in counseling, possibly because it would counteract the narrative that she & Stepdad have everything the kids need for emotional health. I think if H tried to just take the kids to counseling on his own time, once Mom found out, she’d most likely turn the kids against it. Not sure what to do there.

[livednlearned]

It sounds really complex, kells76. To have a BPD parent be in charge of emotional health so explicitly puts you and H in a tricky situation.

What about seeing a family counselor on your own? -- just the two of you go, to discuss what's happening and get recommendations. My T helped me keep my train on track, and made me realize that even as the "non" parent, I had a lot of learning to do when it came to interacting with S14, especially as I was dealing with our own adjustment to the new normal. I did not have the skills to counteract parental alienation without her counsel. I'm talking about the very complex triangles that form, that are hard to see when you're in them. These are the worst.

It also seems like validation is going to be doubly important in your situation. You Don't Have To Make Everything All Better is probably the best for what you're dealing with. The girls are going to need help sorting out what feels right and what doesn't feel right -- not just about general reality, but about how to be emotionally healthy. So challenging! It's like classic PA where you can't directly challenge the girls -- that reinforces the binary black/white wrong/right thinking. You have to keep getting them to think for themselves.

[ForeverDad]

If she has custody, then likely he cant take them to a counselor unless she approves.  Seems there are multiple items to seek fixes in court?

• Getting his parenting time as specified in the court order



• Getting them counselors (courts like counseling)



• Getting D9 to stay in school - starting homeschooling just because father will teach there is obstructive

Schools have counselors, if he can keep the girls in school then they'll be available on a limited basis.

I know my inclination to get the fixes sooner rather than later - court can take months or longer - seems daunting, but now he has a few reasons to seek changes by the court.  Even if he's unlikely to get full custody, he may get clarity on the parenting schedule, he may get the court to agree there is no basis to start homeschooling because he works there, he can at least seek joint legal custody and then Decision Making or Tie Breaker status, using her patterns as basis to step in and be more involved as parent.

Yes, I'm speaking from a more proactive perspective.  Maybe that's more than H can handle right now, but if he doesn't do proactive things in a strategic way he'll just get more and more sidelined. My worry, anyway.