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Author Topic: Standing up for myself  (Read 614 times)
maxsterling
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« on: July 11, 2015, 01:58:05 AM »

During monday's group therapy session, we talked about "I statements" and expressing how we feel using those statements.  I realized for a long time I have not been expressing how I feel.  Part of that is baggage I brought in from childhood, re-triggered by being constantly invalidated by my wife.  But as suggested, If I made a simple "I feel ___." statement, it's hard for her to argue, and if she does, it will just help me solidify that i am dealing with. 

Tonight I came home from a part time job, to her 1 text message asking how work was, then telling me that she has an issue with the way I dress, and asked me if she can help me find a different wardrobe (it was specific to a particular type of clothing, but that's not important).  I was honest in my reply:

"I don't understand why you are putting so much thought into me.  Do you not accept me for who I am?  I feel hurt." 

Then I went for a walk.  She left no response.

I feel good that I stood up for myself.  Now my phone is off and I will go to bed.  Take care of me.   
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« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2015, 03:42:20 AM »

Well done max :-)
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« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2015, 07:09:32 AM »

 

Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

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« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2015, 08:01:16 AM »

Hi max,

I feel good that I stood up for myself.  Now my phone is off and I will go to bed.  Take care of me.  

good job voicing what you believe in  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post) At times it is important to say what you believe in consequences be dammed.

Still it matters a bit how one does it. Otherwise you tell your story but it is not heard on the other side. Still it feels good to tell but what is the point of telling if it is not heard?

"I don't understand why you are putting so much thought into me.  :)o you not accept me for who I am?  I feel hurt."  

Looking now at details of your response: "why" asks her to justify herself. To explain herself. Not a good word to use. Easily invalidating. Once she is invalidated the "I feel hurt" is less likely to be heard.

Your wife was invalidating you and you got triggered. Understandable - clothing is personal and while I suspect most men won't get away without their wifes interference once in a while a pwBPD can take it to another level. When triggered it is often best to step away and not to react. You would have not only sent a better response but by taking time and NOT REACTING immediately you would have broken out of her control. Her sending an invalidating message and you are responding soon - whatever you send - is you being yanked around by her. Breaking your reactive pattern is important for you to feel a higher degree of freedom. And this is entirely under your control.

A better response may have been:

- You spend a lot of time thinking about how I should dress.

- It is important to you.

- The way I dress is my business and I like myself. When I want input I ask. Your comments make me feel not accepted by you for who I am. I feel hurt.

Max, you are making truly great progress the last weeks  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post). It takes a while to pull yourself out of the hole. It is very good that you have local f2f support! Keep going  

 

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« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2015, 09:42:01 AM »

Excerpt
- You spend a lot of time thinking about how I should dress.

This sentence sounds like blaming and judging to me.  It can trigger an argument as she JADEs it. (I think a non may feel invited to JADE that sentence)

I like Max's response.

He focused on his perception and experience throughout it.

He is confused by her statements, therefore asking for clarification.

Then expressing his feelings.

None of that can really be argued with.  And it sounds like he is actually validating his own experience with it.

I love it!
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« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2015, 12:51:43 PM »

Well, she dysregulated anyway, threw it all back on me about how I am too sensitive and not open to suggestions.   I'm guessing I hit a nerve.  She claims she only wanted the best for me, and wanted me to be attractive for her.  At that point, I just let it go and will no longer engage. 

Regarding my statement - I think I could have re-phrased the second sentence differently.  It probably would not have mattered anyway.  I'm trying to get away from using the word "you", especially opening a sentence with it, and obviously I did that here.  If I were to say it again, I would be more concise:

"I don't understand why you are focusing on what I wear right now.  I feel criticized."

The second sentence she interpreted as me telling her that she does not accept me.  And I think substituting the word "criticized" instead of "hurt" would have softened things.

But the reality is - I do feel like she does not accept who I am, and I do feel hurt.  Very hurt.  In that regard, I feel like I was being honest. 
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« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2015, 02:59:38 PM »

Excerpt
But the reality is - I do feel like she does not accept who I am, and I do feel hurt.  Very hurt.  In that regard, I feel like I was being honest.

I got the impression Max, that a part of the exercise was intentionally for you to express your feelings to her.

I think you make an extremely important point here!  That when you shift the truth slightly about your feelings, in order to "soften" them, in order to "control" her reaction vs expressing your truth, then you are left feeling less honest.

I believe that if you continue to honor your feelings in this way that you are learning in the group... .that you may find yourself felling validated by yourself.  You will be empowering and trusting that it is ok to own your feelings, you will be respecting yourself.

I truley believe what you did and how you analyzed it is a huge step and a key in remaining a strong, constant, secure, self assured force in the face of all challenges. (BPD or otherwise challenges).  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

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« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2015, 08:20:07 PM »

Good for you, Max, for standing up for yourself.  Maybe you could have worded it differently, but it's really a matter of how many eggshells you want to walk over.  She would find a way to dysregulate no matter what.  With all the issues your wife needs to deal with, she chooses to make an issue over your clothes--in a text while she is on vacation.  I find that very telling.

Your wife is basically letting you know in her not-so-subtle way that your repreive from being her target is coming to an end.  Once she's back home, she may continue with her complaints about her friend she's been visiting to some extent, but her focus will quickly be back on you as the target.  People with BPD must have a target.  Always.  The bull's eye is about to be taken off her friend and slapped back on your forehead. 

I hope you are ready to continue standing up for yourself and upholding your boundaries. 
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« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2015, 03:30:30 AM »

How about "I'm sorry you don't like *whatever type of clothing*. I like how I dress, as it is comfortable. Would you like me to wear *her type of clothing* the next time we go out?"

That way, you tell her that what she likes is important to you, just not at your own expense every day.
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« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2015, 09:57:03 AM »

How about "I'm sorry you don't like *whatever type of clothing*. I like how I dress, as it is comfortable. Would you like me to wear *her type of clothing* the next time we go out?"

That way, you tell her that what she likes is important to you, just not at your own expense every day.

I've tried that.  She claims I am dismissing her opinion if I am not willing to do xyz all the time.  It's not just clothing, it's hair style, the way I drive, the way I walk or eat, you name it, it's criticized. 
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« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2015, 10:58:56 AM »

Her comment last night:

"You always make me feel ashamed of myself."

Me saying I felt hurt by her criticism made her feel ashamed of herself for having such an opinion.  I'm not sure there is much around this - this is something she has to work at on her own.  I can't walk on eggshells to keep her from feeling ashamed.  Validation could help here, but the reality is me just taking care of myself makes her feel ashamed.  I need to be able to express that I feel hurt by her words or actions.  And sometimes, me just cleaning the house or cooking dinner makes her feel ashamed.

That comment about me making her feel ashamed of herself has me really down today.  I think because it is making me realize I am dealing with an extremely disordered person who can't see beyond her own emotions, and that there is nothing I can do about fixing certain things about the relationship.
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« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2015, 11:06:27 AM »

Max, when is she coming home?  Do you feel you've gathered some more strength during this break?  Are you still prepared to serve the OOP if needed?  I feel that she is going to come back with her BPD in full force. 
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« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2015, 11:20:25 AM »

Max, when is she coming home?  Do you feel you've gathered some more strength during this break?  Are you still prepared to serve the OOP if needed?  I feel that she is going to come back with her BPD in full force. 

Friday.   I have the same fear.   Yes, I feel I have gathered strength and wisdom.  I have a feeling I can head some of this off, but I agree that it may be rough. 
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« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2015, 11:44:50 AM »

But the reality is - I do feel like she does not accept who I am, and I do feel hurt.  Very hurt.  In that regard, I feel like I was being honest.  

Hey Max,

Yep, not feeling accepted is pretty big stuff, it hurts, no doubt.  This might just be me, but I truly believe pwBPD are looking for strength from us, not hurt and disappointment.  It's everyday stuff (like the clothing comment), not just gathering strength to sock it to 'em in a big way, serving OOPs.  It's about "connecting", even in the icky stuff.  They can connect to our strength that we're not going to keel over because of "some silly comment that was just said because blah blah blah... .".

They can disconnect from their shame so fast it makes OUR heads spin!  So, what does that tell me?  :)on't connect to their shame, connect to your own internal strength.

Your wife was invalidating you and you got triggered. Understandable - clothing is personal and while I suspect most men won't get away without their wifes interference once in a while a pwBPD can take it to another level. When triggered it is often best to step away and not to react. You would have not only sent a better response but by taking time and NOT REACTING immediately you would have broken out of her control. Her sending an invalidating message and you are responding soon - whatever you send - is you being yanked around by her. Breaking your reactive pattern is important for you to feel a higher degree of freedom. And this is entirely under your control.

Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

Believe that the way you dress is a-ok, unless you're walking around the city streets sporting a speedo. Takes some of the oomph out it.  Then respond from that special place inside you.  She'll hear it.




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« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2015, 12:52:47 PM »

  I think because it is making me realize I am dealing with an extremely disordered person who can't see beyond her own emotions, and that there is nothing I can do about fixing certain things about the relationship.

I disagree with your last comment. 

My gut tells me that the most important thing you can do... .is not to "take" her issues... .and to leave them with her.

So... .she doesn't like the way you dress... .that's her opinion... .she is entitled to it... .you are under no obligation to listen or help with it. 

You are her husband... .partner... .friend... .I would take fixer... .therapist... .confidant... .off the list.

How has she been doing with her mental health team... .P... .T... .and all that?

FF
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« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2015, 05:22:49 PM »

Yep, not feeling accepted is pretty big stuff, it hurts, no doubt.  This might just be me, but I truly believe pwBPD are looking for strength from us, not hurt and disappointment.  It's everyday stuff (like the clothing comment), not just gathering strength to sock it to 'em in a big way, serving OOPs.  It's about "connecting", even in the icky stuff.  They can connect to our strength that we're not going to keel over because of "some silly comment that was just said because blah blah blah... .".

My husband has even said as much. One of the reasons that he was attracted to me was because of my strength. I have noticed a pattern that when I am feeling weak and vulnerable, his behavior is much worse. If I stand in a position of strength and self assurance, things are so much better. Getting back in touch with my inner spirit and inner strength has helped everything tremendously.
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« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2015, 08:14:47 PM »

Yep to what 123Phoebe & VoC said Smiling (click to insert in post)

With ssues like your clothing/everything about you being criticized, go straight back to boundary enforcement.

You don't have to accept that kind of criticism. You can remove yourself from it. DO SO. Simple.

Remember what you DON'T do when you are enforcing boundaries... .you don't try to convince the person you are enforcing boundaries against that you are right/they are wrong/you 'should' be enforcing the boundary/etc/etc/etc.

You also don't validate when you are enforcing a boundary. (You do validate... .but not at that moment)

She doesn't have to agree with you. She should learn that constant criticism of you isn't going to be accepted. What she does about it is her choice.
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« Reply #17 on: July 14, 2015, 12:49:13 AM »

The fact she is saying she is feeling ashamed is good. Don't JADE - exactly as you said it is her problem. It is her problem to deal with and to some degree it is her motivator for change. Her ability to voice it is good as is any sign of emotional self reflection. Of course it was also an attempt to offload it and guilt you. But it was also self validating by her.

Keep working on yourself Max!
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« Reply #18 on: July 14, 2015, 07:44:28 AM »

Often I will use "I am sure you did not mean to be hurtful, it did feel hurtful non the less, I would feel a lot better if you didn't do XYZ'

You have stated your feeling, you have accused them of a deliberate act, and so lessened risk of defensiveness, then given an option as to how to avoid it happening in future (to either be taken on board or ignored)
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« Reply #19 on: July 14, 2015, 11:39:32 AM »

I went to group therapy last night and shared this.  The facilitators applauded me for standing up for myself and expressing my feelings, despite the negative reaction on her part.  My thoughts during the group session were that I had two options -  not express my feelings and feel awful, or express my feelings and she gets upset and I feel awful but at least not as closed off.  The facilitators saw this as a positive step in me.  We all decided that it really didn't matter how I expressed my feelings, W would have viewed any kind of communication on this front as me accusing/blaming her, so it's not worth dwelling on whether or not I could have phrased things differently. 

I talked to my W on the phone last night, and it seems she is back to taking her friend's prescription pain killers and anti-anxiety without a prescription .  Now she thinks she needs to get prescription meds again on her own just to have in case of an emergency.  I really was not in a mood to get into this with her over the phone last night.  But I suggested she make an appointment with her doctor.  I don't like her relying on meds that she has abused or overdosed on in the past, but if they are managed by a qualified doctor, I am easier to let it go.  Taking pills that were prescribed buy Urgent Care or her GP or from her friend just seems like a disaster waiting to happen.
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« Reply #20 on: July 14, 2015, 12:16:26 PM »

How has she been doing with her mental health team... .P... .T... .and all that?

FF

Is anyone seeing your wife at this time? It seems so, so critical.

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« Reply #21 on: July 14, 2015, 12:22:50 PM »

She sees a P about once per month, and a T about once per week.
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« Reply #22 on: July 14, 2015, 12:50:55 PM »

We all decided that it really didn't matter how I expressed my feelings, W would have viewed any kind of communication on this front as me accusing/blaming her, so it's not worth dwelling on whether or not I could have phrased things differently. 

I could not agree more. 
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« Reply #23 on: July 14, 2015, 12:52:42 PM »

max, I just have to ask:

Do they know about her behaviors? Do they know, for instance, that she's a domestic batterer? . . . Or are these folks tasked with helping a nice young couple get pregnant?

Just really wonder if these professionals have full disclosure. And if they can help if they don't.

Otherwise, you're going great! You're really changing.
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« Reply #24 on: July 14, 2015, 01:03:49 PM »

max, I just have to ask:

Do they know about her behaviors? Do they know, for instance, that she's a domestic batterer? . . . Or are these folks tasked with helping a nice young couple get pregnant?

Just really wonder if these professionals have full disclosure. And if they can help if they don't.

Otherwise, you're going great! You're really changing.

Both our MC and her T know, because I told them in confidence.   I may have told her P as well, but can't remember what I revealed to him.
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« Reply #25 on: July 14, 2015, 01:06:06 PM »

 Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

Just wow, max, you're really doing great.
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« Reply #26 on: July 15, 2015, 08:04:42 AM »

Both our MC and her T know, because I told them in confidence.   I may have told her P as well, but can't remember what I revealed to him.

And what is their "treatment plan"? 

Are the P and T working together or in the same group? 

What plan have the prescribed... .and how is the wife doing following it?

FF
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« Reply #27 on: July 15, 2015, 08:48:11 AM »

And what is their "treatment plan"? 

Are the P and T working together or in the same group? 

What plan have the prescribed... .and how is the wife doing following it?

FF

This is what I wonder about every time I read your posts, max.

I think you've mentioned you've seen documentation that described your wife has "seriously mentally ill" (and the fact that she's on permanent disability for mental health issues seems to bolster that notion, along with her behaviors, which are pretty disturbing.)

She sees lots of doctors, it seems. But who's minding the shop here?

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« Reply #28 on: July 15, 2015, 09:12:14 AM »

Your wonderings Katecat highlight for me the difficulties of others especially Ps and Ts really seeing the true extent of the illness. Fundamentally BPD is an Attachment disorder triggered through transference within any intimate relationship.

Unfortunately for most people the worst excesses of dysregulated behaviours are played out within the confines of our relationships. It is often hidden from view, for many years nobody would listen when I told them what was going on with my husband. It becomes all about risk in my experience, risk to self, risk to others, then services have to act, but still only in the short term.

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« Reply #29 on: July 15, 2015, 09:44:30 AM »

Oh, dear. So there's probably really no "treatment team" unless a patient agrees to one?
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« Reply #30 on: July 15, 2015, 10:20:03 AM »

Exactly - we fought and fought and complained and it took two years of the most horrendous dysregulated behaviours before we got a fully comprehensive treatment package, with respite hospital admissions at my h's request. It still didn't change the trajectory of the illness, my h is now in prison, not because of something he did, but because of something he might do. And on release he will be subject to a year long compulsory community treatment order as well as his current care package.

max serving the OOP would have changed the dynamics of their conflict, and possibly brought the extremes of his wife's illness to the attention of others. For max though it was too much of  a risk for him in that he wanted to safeguard his marriage.

For me it was an easy call to make, to keep exposing the worst excesses of this illness to others, because I had a child to protect and prioritise.

And ultimately I know now after speaking to my h, who is stable and well looked after on the hospital wing, that it protected him to. He was a path of self destruction and he couldn't stop. He said on a recent visit that he expected to die prior to being arrested because he was completely lost to the illness.

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« Reply #31 on: July 15, 2015, 10:29:39 AM »

Choices as tough as "Solomon's Choice" or "Sophie's Choice" it seems.



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« Reply #32 on: July 15, 2015, 11:03:18 AM »

I'll try to answer questions with one reply -

Treatment team?  Well, she has a T whom she sees once a week.  No specialized BPD treatment going on.  She also has a P, whom she sees once a month.  And then there is MC - not really a treatment for her.   So really, there isn't a "treatment plan" or team, just appointments with a talk therapist. I'd feel much more comfortable if there was a plan that included a firm diagnosis that my wife accepts, a course of action, and a metric of expected results. 

Other news - she's talking about changing her return flight to stay longer.  Frankly, I would not mind if she stayed a few more days.  She's also been taking her friend's prescription meds again, Xanax and Narcotic pain killers.  Yikes.  I can't live in denial about this - this is a potentially serious issue and the reality is - this is a relapse.  I would feel differently if she was taking these medications under care of her doctor, but to just take her friend's pills because she is stressed or has a headache is a really bad sign.
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« Reply #33 on: July 15, 2015, 11:11:41 AM »

And the misuse of these medications, especially not prescribed can trigger horrible dysregulated behaviour in my experience.

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« Reply #34 on: July 15, 2015, 06:47:06 PM »

Now she has changed her ticket to stay until next Wednesday.  Frankly, I wouldn't mind more alone time, and I think she could use it as well.  She's amongst other friends now, not just the one.  And she seems to be in a better mood.   

But I am having a hard time today.  Part may be due to me not sleeping well last night, but part of it is me realizing she has active addiction issues going on right now.  I also still feel quite hurt, and extremely confused because she is saying things likes she misses me and wishes I was there with her.  I'm confused because there's never been an apology or admission at all that her behavior towards me has in any way been hurtful, and it's like she has moved on.
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« Reply #35 on: July 15, 2015, 07:01:45 PM »

Her return would also mean a withdrawal from her med supply also, which is going make things a whole lot worse.

Dealing with an addict is soul destroying
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« Reply #36 on: July 15, 2015, 07:07:20 PM »

My wifes 'treatment team" is also a patchwork of empathy talk counselling, she runs from any hardcore therapy. My concern is it is creating a dependency on too much S & E supply. Endlessly talking over FOO issues with the various people causes her to entrench the issues into the core of her daily life and not actually dealing with them and moving on.
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« Reply #37 on: July 15, 2015, 07:24:43 PM »

Waverider - yep, that pretty much sums up what I see.  My wife goes to T or P so long as that person can empathize and "validate".  I put validate in quotes because I think my wife wants more than a validation of her emotions, she wants someone to tell her that her actions are justified.  And the minute someone (friend, therapist, AA sponsor, or me) suggests that she is the cause for any of her problems, she runs away, claiming she is being "judged".  I really don't feel like she really faces her issues and her role in them. 

I'm not sure where my emotions are coming from today (well, the past few days).  Before, I was better at accepting that my wife would never own up to much of her behavior, and I was okay with that.  But this time I just feel like I can't move on without some kind of acknowledgement that she has been violent and critical.
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« Reply #38 on: July 15, 2015, 08:12:17 PM »

max, I can't remember... .Has your wife ever been admitted to an In-Patient Dual Diagnosis Program at any point? Have you ever looked into Neurofeedback (or Biofeedback) Therapy for her? Would she even consider either of those things?

The only thing that helped my son (who is now 38 and probably wouldn't even be diagnosed with BPD anymore) deal with his mental health issues and drug addiction (it was Heroin, for multiple years) in a very productive way was his stay at a 21-day Intensive In-Patient Dual Diagnosis Program (it was in Bradford, PA at the Bradford Regional Medical Center; the Dr. running the program and all the Staff there are stellar).

Two weeks after being discharged from that DDx Center he started Neurofeedback Therapy to treat every one of his symptoms and behaviors. He still goes to NFT every 2 weeks, and has been clean and sober for more than 2 years now (he was sober for about 3 weeks or so when he was admitted to the DDx Center, and was discharged in April 2013). He still goes to Out-Patient Therapy every week, and sees his Psychiatrist once/month, but it was the DDx Program that turned his life around when they diagnosed his BPD and gave him DBT classes. And it's the NFT that has kept him sane and sober and becoming "normal" for the first time since I can remember.

I was just wondering if any of those options were available to your wife, if she would be interested in looking into them, or if you have even thought about them. I really hope things somehow get better, or become clearer for you, after your wife gets back, max 

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« Reply #39 on: July 16, 2015, 08:59:57 AM »

 

Max,

What does the P do for her?  Is it more talk? 


Somehow... .I see you needing to take on more of a husband role... .with more more limited "support" of your wife's mental needs... .and let that shift over to the treatment team.

Thoughts?

FF
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