vacation#2

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

just finished my 2nd week of vacation with my daughter (2 years old) we had a great time and it was VERY difficult to bring her back to her mom. :'(  :'( :'(

We didn't leave town for this week and stayed home, we went to a local water park a couple of days and a petting zoo on another day. I painted her toenails and finger nails for the first time ( its a lot harder then it looks) We went and picked out the colors she wanted and she was so excited and was showing every one. She is so refreshing to be around for me, even though she is 2 and tests boundaries and can try my patience she is still a absolute joy to be around for me.

She didn't ask for her mom at all and refused to talk to her when she called. My ex thought it would help if I put my phone on speaker to talk to my daughter, all that did was make my daughter leave the room. I never listened to my exs conversations to my daughter before but it was on speaker so I heard the dialog and it was ridiculous, basically it was a lot of FOG. Laying a guilt trip on a 2 yr old? Really? My ex was saying " hopefully I will see you soon" Hopefully? did she think I was going to run off with my daughter?

My ex kept pressuring my daughter to talk and tell her she loved her and finally said " I guess you don't want to talk to mommy" at that point I stepped in and said " ok she is tired and doesn't feel like talking tonight" My daughter handed me the phone and left the room before all that was said so she didn't hear much, I let my ex talk to air for a few minutes because if I told her my daughter handed me the phone right when she called my ex would accuse me of not letting my daughter talk to her.

It must feel good for my daughter to be able to leave the room and escape the FOG when she is with me because she knows she cant when she is with her mom.

Its my belief that my daughter was coached by my ex to ask for her mom, she has only asked for her mom one time ever and right after that visit my ex asked me if she asked for her. My ex told me that she asked my daughter if she asked me for her mom, When my daughter asked me for her mom it was very matter of fact and had no emotion behind it and wasn't mentioned again by my daughter. These 2 weeks I had my daughter she never asked for her mom and on the end of both weeks when I told her we had to go back to mommy her whole body language changed, her shoulders literally slumped and dropped down along with her smile.

I honestly don't know if she would ask about her mom at all if I never took her back. I dont want my daughter to feel like im dumping her off to mom but I dont know the best way to let her know I want her to stay with me. I think shared custody is best for the kids in divorce with a non disordered person but my ex does more harm then good to my daughter

any suggestions?

[Eco]

just finished my 2nd week of vacation with my daughter (2 years old) we had a great time and it was VERY difficult to bring her back to her mom. :'(  :'( :'(

We didn't leave town for this week and stayed home, we went to a local water park a couple of days and a petting zoo on another day. I painted her toenails and finger nails for the first time ( its a lot harder then it looks) We went and picked out the colors she wanted and she was so excited and was showing every one. She is so refreshing to be around for me, even though she is 2 and tests boundaries and can try my patience she is still a absolute joy to be around for me.

She didn't ask for her mom at all and refused to talk to her when she called. My ex thought it would help if I put my phone on speaker to talk to my daughter, all that did was make my daughter leave the room. I never listened to my exs conversations to my daughter before but it was on speaker so I heard the dialog and it was ridiculous, basically it was a lot of FOG. Laying a guilt trip on a 2 yr old? Really? My ex was saying " hopefully I will see you soon" Hopefully? did she think I was going to run off with my daughter?

My ex kept pressuring my daughter to talk and tell her she loved her and finally said " I guess you don't want to talk to mommy" at that point I stepped in and said " ok she is tired and doesn't feel like talking tonight" My daughter handed me the phone and left the room before all that was said so she didn't hear much, I let my ex talk to air for a few minutes because if I told her my daughter handed me the phone right when she called my ex would accuse me of not letting my daughter talk to her.

It must feel good for my daughter to be able to leave the room and escape the FOG when she is with me because she knows she cant when she is with her mom.

Its my belief that my daughter was coached by my ex to ask for her mom, she has only asked for her mom one time ever and right after that visit my ex asked me if she asked for her. My ex told me that she asked my daughter if she asked me for her mom, When my daughter asked me for her mom it was very matter of fact and had no emotion behind it and wasn't mentioned again by my daughter. These 2 weeks I had my daughter she never asked for her mom and on the end of both weeks when I told her we had to go back to mommy her whole body language changed, her shoulders literally slumped and dropped down along with her smile.

I honestly don't know if she would ask about her mom at all if I never took her back. I dont want my daughter to feel like im dumping her off to mom but I dont know the best way to let her know I want her to stay with me. I think shared custody is best for the kids in divorce with a non disordered person but my ex does more harm then good to my daughter

any suggestions?

[bravhart1]

I'm so glad you had a good vacation and got to have a solid block of quality time. I'm sure your daughter enjoyed the break from mom.

I'm so sorry you are struggling with the decision/frustration of how to manage your daughters obvious signs of being exposed to a emotionally unstable parent.

I struggle with the same issues. As much as I want to support my SD's relationship with her mother, I also can't save them both. Mom is making SD unstable as well. We are seeing  nothing but BPD behavior from SD in recent months and she seems very unhappy.

It's hard to know how hard to push or fight to remove the BPD parent if you need to. It's hard to make such a big decision and not one to take lightly. But unfortunately the other side of our battle has a "kill or be killed" mentality that makes it hard not to do our best to protect SD from it.

I hope that for your daughters sake her mother can put her first very soon.

I wish my SD mom only knew how much I want her to be her daughters mother. How much I would help her. How much her daughter needs her to be healthy. But she only sees danger and malicious intent around every corner. It's not possible in her world that I might be a good person.

I hope for all your sakes you can find a way to get through to her. Though if that were possible then I guess you would still be with her. :'(

I guess the only hope I can offer is that she has you, and you seem pretty pro active. Just wait till you see things that make you believe the time is now. Until then just keep watch.

I hear people say it, I know it's true and I really need to do a better job of it but "self care" is going to be a big deal if you are going to get you and your daughter through this ECO. Good luck!

[Eco]

I'm so glad you had a good vacation and got to have a solid block of quality time. I'm sure your daughter enjoyed the break from mom.

Thank you, she certainly does enjoy the break from her mom. she does a night and day change when I get her, she goes from being guarded and withdrawn to open, free and relieved looking. she looks like a thousand pound weight has been lifted, its so sad that a 2 yr old already looks like a adult with pressures of life on them.

I'm so sorry you are struggling with the decision/frustration of how to manage your daughters obvious signs of being exposed to a emotionally unstable parent.

I feel very bad for my daughter because its like im bringing her back to prison when I bring her back to her mom

I struggle with the same issues. As much as I want to support my SD's relationship with her mother, I also can't save them both. Mom is making SD unstable as well. We are seeing  nothing but BPD behavior from SD in recent months and she seems very unhappy.

That's my fear as well and why im going back to court to try and get majority time before my daughter gets to old. It sounds like your SD is buying her moms victim role hook line and sinker, my ex does the same thing. its sad what they do to the kids.

It's hard to know how hard to push or fight to remove the BPD parent if you need to. It's hard to make such a big decision and not one to take lightly. But unfortunately the other side of our battle has a "kill or be killed" mentality that makes it hard not to do our best to protect SD from it.

They all seem to have that mentality, it sounds like the more you do to try and protect your SD the more her mom tries to twist it in her favor.

I hope that for your daughters sake her mother can put her first very soon.

I do to but unfortunately for my daughter my ex is #1 priority in everything and the only reason she does anything for her kids is to promote how good of a mother she is

I wish my SD mom only knew how much I want her to be her daughters mother. How much I would help her. How much her daughter needs her to be healthy. But she only sees danger and malicious intent around every corner. It's not possible in her world that I might be a good person.

That's very true and it is sad how much they throw away and damage others just to get their way. my ex has nobody on her side or to help her because she runs everyone off, my family would do so much for her.

I hope for all your sakes you can find a way to get through to her. Though if that were possible then I guess you would still be with her. cry

yes I would be, like with your SD mom my ex sees everything I say or do as something evil.

I guess the only hope I can offer is that she has you, and you seem pretty pro active. Just wait till you see things that make you believe the time is now. Until then just keep watch.

I hear people say it, I know it's true and I really need to do a better job of it but "self care" is going to be a big deal if you are going to get you and your daughter through this ECO. Good luck!

Thank you so much  and I wish your family luck as well

[livednlearned]

I painted her toenails and finger nails for the first time ( its a lot harder then it looks)

I feel that way too. 

Have you ever watched Conversations with my 2 Year Old videos on youtube? There is one where the dad lets his 3-year-old paint his finger nails (while he's watching a game on tv). Needless to say, a mess ensues... .

I honestly don't know if she would ask about her mom at all if I never took her back. I dont want my daughter to feel like im dumping her off to mom but I dont know the best way to let her know I want her to stay with me. I think shared custody is best for the kids in divorce with a non disordered person but my ex does more harm then good to my daughter

any suggestions?

If I could have a do-over, I would help S14 identify and label his feeling states constantly. And I would get out of the way, not focus on whether S14 loved me, or loved his dad. The truth is he loves us both. The truth is that I hurt him less. Even when S14 felt hurt by his dad, he still loved him. Just like when I hurt S14, I know he still loves me. I know I gave him an incredible gift when I stepped out of the triangle that N/BPDx constantly tried to create.

Even so... .

I wish I helped S14 feel connected to his own feelings by helping him identify them, process them, and learn with my help how to self soothe, how he could turn to me in his pain and I would be there, not to judge him, but to help guide him through the labyrinth. Even if that maze of feelings was about how he felt about his dad. I think I was about a C+ at doing this. I had to really step up my game when S14 fell into this most recent depression.

That's the poison of parental alienation. It drags us into a very sick and twisted game. We start to keep score.

You don't want your D to feel alone in how she is feeling -- that is a big risk for our kids. They are so badly invalidated by their BPD parent, and the cost of being invalidated is that they doubt what they feel and think. It's like handing them a stone that they build into a tower until they become separate and isolated from other people. They feel insecure about who they are.

I don't know. I'm still trying to figure this out. I don't think there is a way to win at a game that pwBPD are masters at. The only way that makes sense to me is to refuse to play. Which is really, really hard to do.

[Eco]

Have you ever watched Conversations with my 2 Year Old videos on youtube? There is one where the dad lets his 3-year-old paint his finger nails (while he's watching a game on tv). Needless to say, a mess ensues... .grin

yes I have seen that, it is funny. The things we do for our kids

You don't want your D to feel alone in how she is feeling -- that is a big risk for our kids. They are so badly invalidated by their BPD parent, and the cost of being invalidated is that they doubt what they feel and think. It's like handing them a stone that they build into a tower until they become separate and isolated from other people. They feel insecure about who they are.

That's what I would like to accomplish, My daughter looks like all the joy has been sucked out of her when I tell her its time to go back to mommy, even after a whole week. I would like to find a way to help my daughter deal with those feelings.

I don't know. I'm still trying to figure this out. I don't think there is a way to win at a game that pwBPD are masters at. The only way that makes sense to me is to refuse to play. Which is really, really hard to do

It is very hard to do, I agree though when you don't engage its best most of the time. Im hoping that I get majority time when I go back to court and im hoping the conflict and chaos lessens, I may be naïve to think that though. 

[livednlearned]

My daughter looks like all the joy has been sucked out of her when I tell her its time to go back to mommy, even after a whole week. I would like to find a way to help my daughter deal with those feelings.

When you see her like that, what do you say? How do you respond to her?

[Eco]

When you see her like that, what do you say? How do you respond to her?

I ask her why she looks sad but I get no response so I give her a hug and kiss and tell her how much I love her and remind her how much fun we had and when I will see her again. I also tell her that if she misses me at mommys to let mommy know, my ex has told me before that my daughter has asked for me and my ex told her when I was going to see her next and she was ok after that. Im not sure if that is the truth or not

Would it be a bad idea to tell her I don't want her to go and that I want her to stay but she has to go back to mommy?

[livednlearned]

Would it be a bad idea to tell her I don't want her to go and that I want her to stay but she has to go back to mommy?

Is the intention to tell her this because you want her to know how you feel about her? About her having to leave? Or to make sure she knows that there is this arrangement that has to happen, and if it wasn't there you would ... .?

Are you having a hard time with her feelings because they are difficult ones, and you want to comfort her (remove her sadness)?

Or you want to say something because you aren't clear why she is feeling sad?

When I see S14 is sad, and he doesn't want to talk about it, I'll say, "Your body language tells me you feel sad. I'm here if you want to talk about anything, and I'm here even if you don't want to talk."

If his body language is both sad and mad, I'll often add, "If you want to set down the burden, I am here. If it's something I did to hurt you, it might feel better to unload it, now or when you're ready."

[ForeverDad]

just finished my 2nd week of vacation with my daughter (2 years old) we had a great time and it was VERY difficult to bring her back to her mom. :'(  :'( :'(

She didn't ask for her mom at all and refused to talk to her when she called.

I separated when my son was about 3.5 years old.  His mother, um, left after a police visit, I got temporary possession of the house and after she got out she went to a House of Peace for presumably battered women.  (I inquired, in my area these wasn't any for men.)  That first night was priceless, the silence was so loud.   He woke up during the night and asked where his mother was.  Same thing the next night.  Other than that he never asked about her during the next 6 days and changed the subject when I tried mentioning her.  So your experience matches mine.

And when on vacation the next summer I recall his mother making a stink about phone calls.  (Well, more than that, she tried to get an Amber Alert on me since she felt my Vacation Notice was just a Vacation Request and so she of course said No.  I was smart enough to start my vacation on my weekend and so I was long gone when the weekend ended.)  She never tried calling us of course so my lawyer said the interim fix was that I should call her and let them talk every few days.  I recall that in one call he said "bye" six times before the call finally ended.

I've since been told really young children aren't that much into calls, even video calls.

Would it be a bad idea to tell her I don't want her to go and that I want her to stay but she has to go back to mommy?

I believe honesty at an age-appropriate level is good, she won't comprehend all the details of course.

On the other hand, don't invalidate her.  Don't minimize or dismiss her natural observations, reactions and conclusions.  If she doesn't want to return to her mother, tell her you understand but will see her again soon.

In my experience, from 3 to about 6 years old, he always came running to me at exchanges (sheriff's offices) and never wanted to go back to his mother, sometimes crying and fighting to exit with me.  (Her response was to accuse, "What did you do to him?" :'( )  When he was 6 we came out of the divorce with equal time and eventually he accepted or got used to the exchanges.  I was seeking custody around age 9 and when the GAL was assigned he returned at an exchange exclaiming, "I want 50% time with my mother!"  There was no way it came out of nowhere or that he would have used the phrase "50%".  After years of blocking and obstructing, she had managed to get son at age 9 to decide equal time was "fair".

So my experience says it's fine for your child to say she wants to stay with you and for you to say that you want her to stay with you.  Yes, before long she'll get that freeness of expression suppressed by the obstructive parent, lay the groundwork to prepare her for that.  And when she's older she'll be pressured to conform to the obstructive parent's mandate to take sides against you in many ways, you'll have to deal with that too.

[Eco]

Is the intention to tell her this because you want her to know how you feel about her? About her having to leave? Or to make sure she knows that there is this arrangement that has to happen, and if it wasn't there you would ... .?

this,

Or to make sure she knows that there is this arrangement that has to happen, and if it wasn't there you would ... .?

Are you having a hard time with her feelings because they are difficult ones, and you want to comfort her (remove her sadness)?

I don't want her to feel alone but at the same time I know she needs to learn to self sooth

Or you want to say something because you aren't clear why she is feeling sad?

this too

I separated when my son was about 3.5 years old.  His mother, um, left after a police visit, I got temporary possession of the house and after she got out she went to a House of Peace for presumably battered women.  (I inquired, in my area these wasn't any for men.)  That first night was priceless, the silence was so loud. shocked  He woke up during the night and asked where his mother was.  Same thing the next night.  Other than that he never asked about her during the next 6 days and changed the subject when I tried mentioning her.  So your experience matches mine.

Its amazing how calm things are without them around

I've since been told really young children aren't that much into calls, even video calls.

I believe that, when I call my daughter my only goal is to let her hear my voice when I haven't seen her In 3 or 4 days. If she talks to me that's just a bonus, she usually says a couple of things to me and that's it. I usually end the call after about 45 seconds or a minute. My ex cant seem to understand that my daughter is only 2 and long detailed phone calls aren't going to happen yet. Trying to guilt a 2 yr old into talking for 4 plus minutes is ridiculous, thankfully she only heard about 30 seconds of it.

In my experience, from 3 to about 6 years old, he always came running to me at exchanges (sheriff's offices) and never wanted to go back to his mother, sometimes crying and fighting to exit with me.  (Her response was to accuse, "What did you do to him?" cry )

My daughter started that about 2 months ago, she physically pushes at her mom to get separation to get to me when I pick her up. my ex quit face to face pick ups and drop-offs when this first happened because my daughter was refusing to go back to my ex at drop off and leaping out of her arms at pick up.  When my daughter was around a year old to almost 2 she was doing the same thing to me, squirming to get to my ex at drop off but I didn't take it personally and took it as a phase.

I was seeking custody around age 9 and when the GAL was assigned he returned at an exchange exclaiming, "I want 50% time with my mother!"  There was no way it came out of nowhere or that he would have used the phrase "50%".  After years of blocking and obstructing, she had managed to get son at age 9 to decide equal time was "fair".

 The coaching is clearly obvious, Im sure my ex has coached my daughter about a few things and will do it more as she gets older

So my experience says it's fine for your child to say she wants to stay with you and for you to say that you want her to stay with you.  Yes, before long she'll get that freeness of expression suppressed by the obstructive parent, lay the groundwork to prepare her for that.  And when she's older she'll be pressured to conform to the obstructive parent's mandate to take sides against you in many ways, you'll have to deal with that too

Im sure I will have to deal with that unfortunately